New Teams and '07 Season

[Interested Observer]

This is my first post on here so take it easy on me but I have been observing for 2 months or so now and I want to just make sure I am understanding things as the AIFL has announced a team about 20 minutes from me. They will play in Danville, IL.
1)AIFL started last season with 16 teams 2 league owned teams either flopped before or just after the season started. How many league owned teams were there?

2)The league who according to some on here cant pay some bills as it is, Is not worried about a settlement against them for over 1/4 million dollars.

3)Can a team playing in a 2000 seat arena make a profit?? and if so what kind of fan support will they need.

4) This Daytona Dan guy, I think is is with the thunder correct? but was he affiliated with the AIFL Board so to say? If so it seems like he was the only one with a level head from what I have been reading.

I have more but I am just concerned because I know there is alot of hype around the Danville area with people who want to see professional football but I dont think any of those people have been on here to get a different side of the story. By the way I have forund of the so called rumors I have heard on this board in the last 2 months I would say there is a 90% truth rate to those leaks as the politicians would call it.
Thanks and sorry for typing so much

[Sykotyk]

Depending on the amount of sponsorship, the # of employees and their pay, as well as lease agreements and frugality, you can break even or make money at 2,000/game. This depends on specifics such as merchandise sales, how much of beer and concession sales go to the team (if any), as well as the intangiables, such as # of seats sold for how much. A smaller arena would probably have to average about $12.50/ticket (500 or so at $10, 1000 or so at $12.50 and 500 or so at $14), hoping for incremental bump ups if the place isn't sold out.

You'd still be looking at a budget of about $225,000-$275,000 a year for a 14-game AIFL season, and would then require anywhere between $50,000 and $100,000 in sponsorship and ancilliary revenues (beer, concessions, parking, merchandise...).

The key point though is, despite sponsorship and the business climate supporting the team, if only 1,000 show up a game, the team would be in trouble. A sell out every night would basically be a prerequisite.

Sykotyk

[gonzo13]

The best thing you can do is go to games, and tell people how much you enjoyed it (because you will). And bring people back with you.Buy shirts/hats/beer/hotdogs....Whatever you can do to support the team.
Secondly, hope that your owner has cash to burn, and doesn't mind throwing it into the fire.

[Interested Observer]

Thank You for your response

From what you told me I think Danville is a bomb waiting to explode

Here is a brief profile of Danville
Population 34,000
Person below poverty rate 19%
Avg income $30K

Danville is known for their state prison, factories, Public Housing problems (to many housing projects), Drugs, Prostitution

Positives in Danville, A nice arena that sits empty outside of hockey season, And there is a walmart. there are more positives but it is going to be hard to convince a family of 4 to go spend $50 plus to go see 1 game of a lower level pro indoor team.

[Interested Observer]

Gonzo,

there is no owner in Danville curently AH even has what I believe is the Danville franchise for sale on Biz sellers. That is what worries me

[HockeyCanuck]

Check out the "About Us" page on Biz sellers and you will see why teams are being sold there. Same owner as the AIFL.

[Gade06]

That is the biggest lie in indoor football. Payroll alone for players push $100,000.00 then you have to have front office staff, equipment, travel, insurance, etc. Minimum first year is no less than $500,000.00 and there in lies the problem with so many leagues. Most owners where lied to about the dollars they will spend.

[Bandito]

This is my first post on here so take it easy on me but I have been observing for 2 months or so now and I want to just make sure I am understanding things as the AIFL has announced a team about 20 minutes from me. They will play in Danville, IL.
1)AIFL started last season with 16 teams 2 league owned teams either flopped before or just after the season started. How many league owned teams were there?

2)The league who according to some on here cant pay some bills as it is, Is not worried about a settlement against them for over 1/4 million dollars.

3)Can a team playing in a 2000 seat arena make a profit?? and if so what kind of fan support will they need.

4) This Daytona Dan guy, I think is is with the thunder correct? but was he affiliated with the AIFL Board so to say? If so it seems like he was the only one with a level head from what I have been reading.

I have more but I am just concerned because I know there is alot of hype around the Danville area with people who want to see professional football but I dont think any of those people have been on here to get a different side of the story. By the way I have forund of the so called rumors I have heard on this board in the last 2 months I would say there is a 90% truth rate to those leaks as the politicians would call it.
Thanks and sorry for typing so much

Here is the wiki link to the aifl. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFL
It has a good background on the league

The league philosophy is to find a city and arena venue, build a team, and then sell it. This would work as long as the new owners are financially stable, which many have not been. So teams start a season with owners then end up back in the hands of the league during the season.

A small arena can make money. Most of the money comes from sponsorships. As long as a team can fill all the seats they can charge a good price for the sponsorships. If the seats are empty, the price of advertising goes down. Just like a radio station, the fewer the listeners, the cheaper the advertising.

Daytona Dan is officially the AIFL Media Coordinator. He is a good guy. He tries to keep the fans updated as to the goings on in the AIFL. He is somewhat hampered by the ownership of the AIFL who seem to think fans are not important. Here is a clue. NO FANS, NO MONEY!

The league was plagued by financial shortfalls throughout both the 2005 and 2006 seasons. The league owner kept spinning the problem and lost some good talent when he couldn’t, or didn’t want to, pay some players. There is a problem with keeping the officiating staff also.

The judgment against the league is for $450,000. The league owner didn’t even put up a fight. He totally ignored the law suit. Not a good business decision. Of course he will, and is, spinning that also.

Best of luck to your prospective team. Indoor football is an exciting sport. I have attended every game in the Richmond Coliseum since 2000 with two different teams and two different leagues. I will continue to do so if Richmond returns next year.

[gonzo13]

Gonzo,

there is no owner in Danville curently AH even has what I believe is the Danville franchise for sale on Biz sellers. That is what worries me No owner is a little shaky at this point. And 34,000 is kind of a low population. You'd have to draw about 10% of the population that's not in the 19% below the poverty line. It's "do-able" (that's what the kids say), but it would be very hard. There are about 120,000 people in Floyd County,Ga (Rome) and it's a stretch for the Renegades to put 2,000 people in the forum. What helps is drawing fans from our surrounding areas. There are several smaller towns within a half hour or so of Rome and alot of people from those places come to Renegades games. I don't know anything about Danville or the surrounding area, but hopefully an owner will be in place soon and the marketing process can begin.

[Sykotyk]

I never said first year... I meant just year-to-year general operations. The question is 'how cheap will they be'. Too cheap and it turns off fans and sponsors, too expensive and you'll never make enough to cover it.

You're looking at $25,000 for franchise fee, $60,000 or so for the field, and depending on how you go with boards, can greatly change those costs as well.

Sykotyk

[Tatonka]

$100,000 for payroll is high for these leagues. About $75k would be paying every player the $300 max for 14 games.

And with the right national equipment sponsors, you can outfit 30 players for under $10 grand too.

Arena rent varies... I've seen some venues go for $1500 a game, some for $10,000 a game. Depends on your market, and your advertising revenue as well as your ticket prices should reflect that.

Knowing how to spend the money is almost if not more important than making it.

[The Man, The Myth]

Just curious about this:

How many of the expenses are mandated (cost fixed) by the league?

Examples would be Uniforms, Footballs, use of logo, websites, etc.

Obviously, there are franchise fees and monthly dues. Very curious to find out what is mandated by the league.

[FortWayneBballfan]

A good owner could make an indoor football team work in just about any market. Although Danville is not the largest market by any means in the AIFL or GLIFL, if a good owner has a good plan to work with, they could break even or at least make a small amount of profit in Danville. Someone with the ability to market well and hit the streets could have some limited success in D'ville.

[preeths]

If travel costs don't kill them, and they don't get stood up at home. Look, you're going to have to play somebody each game, and if they fold or send in a terrible replacement team, it isn't going to take long before your fan base dwindles. That's one of the points I'm making in the ABA thread. If you don't provide your product, you will lose all your customers.

[FortWayneBballfan]

Teams fold in all leagues, well almost all of them. An owner must be prepared how to handle that with the exception of looking dumbfounded in the event that you lose a game. With only 10 teams in this league now, travel costs would get you if not prepared. The problem is new owners go out and hire an entire staff when a team in a market the size of Danville could be run successfully with a small staff. The thing about indoor football is, you have a great product in place and having success with the GLIFL, what the midwest needs is a basketball league with a successful formula much like the GLIFL. Its just sitting there waiting for someone to take it and run with it. If a league could be formed and get interest from teams in the ABA and the IBL, it could have some great success. D'ville could work, but to really get it to work successfully and right, it needs to be farther north and in the GLIFL. With it in the AIFL, travel costs will be high heading to Canton and Erie and then south to play a few southern teams to make up a 14 game schedule. If a team folds and disappears off of our schedule, there are ways to work that out, but it would take some work from some good solid owners. Same with the ABA, if a team folds...you have backups in place ready to go with teams that are having success. If you can work something out before the season with 4 or 5 teams, that when a team folds and you lose a team to play, you make a call and replace that team with one of the 4 or 5 teams that you contacted prior to the season. For instance, if you have a team in Knoxville. You lose a game, you have it set up with a team in Atl or somewhere else to come play you or vice versa when you need to reschedule a game. You can take a negative and turn it into a positive if done properly. I see your point, but someone with a good business sense could make it work.

[preeths]

But if you're in a small arena, the best preparation is not joining a league whose teams are too far away from you or are underfunded to the point where you doubt they'll finish the season. Of course, Danville doesn't have an owner yet, so no one needs to worry at this point.

It sounds great to have a backup plan of 4-5 teams you can call at a moment's notice, but it simply doesn't work that way. If you're going to do all your own scheduling, three and four times over, why be in a league at all? Plus, if you expect others to fill in your schedule at the drop of a hat, you're going to be expected to do the same. Are you willing to play two games in a weekend or try to throw your players together for a road trip on a few hours notice? It's just not that simple to find alternate opponents, and do so without losing face with your fans. Ask the Fayetteville Guard what they got out of hastily scheduling replacement teams. Sure, they staged the games, but they got ripped in the local paper for all their trouble.

[FortWayneBballfan]

Yep I agree with you, but in minor league sports there are only a few ways to handle folding teams.

1. Replace them with other teams. Although I think you could get away with it it 1 time...maybe 2 tops..anything after that and it is crash and burn time.

2. Play in a solid league where losing teams is not an issue.

I am not saying it is a good thing, I am just saying that someone could make it work in a tiny market like Danville, but they need to really be pre-prepared for anything, including opening their checkbook more often. But, it could work.

How small is the arena in Danville? Do they have minor league hockey or baseball there now? If so, is it supported?

[sportsmgrjay]

It seems mr haines is trying to sell a team in Mobile , asking price 75k al,,,,,,isnt that where fourcade and the new a2 team was to be before Rita hit the gulf coast/ Site also says league expects to have 24-30 teams this yr.hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm
Asking price for tupelo was 50k, wonder if he got that. More greasy news to come,,,U WILL LOVE THE NEXT ONE

[gonzo13]

Jay, are you by chance the host of a 10th rate indoor football radio show?

[sportsmgrjay]

I dont think so but I do know who you are talking about,,, the owner of the ieieo football league, What happend to dear ol'e jim, havent heard of him in a while. is he still planon the new league up north?

[Interested Observer]

Danville has currently has a CICL baseball team (college summer league) that averages about 1200 a game and there are 2 College Club Hockey teams that play there Purdue (campus 45 mins away) and Eastern Illinois University (campus 1.25 hours away) Purdue draws about 150 a game and EIU draws about 300-400 a game. I know EIU has a Danville person as G.M. of their Hockey Club who has been out trying to build a bigger fan base we will see if he knows what he is doing. Danville formerly had a Junior A hockey team and averaged appprox. 600 per game give or take.

[Minor League Man]

It seems mr haines is trying to sell a team in Mobile , asking price 75k al,,,,,,isnt that where fourcade and the new a2 team was to be before Rita hit the gulf coast

No, you're thinking Biloxi. Mobile was where the af2's Wizards used to play (only af2 team never to have won a single game). Biloxi was where Fourcade was going to get the Headhunters before Katrina hit the GS.

I do hope Biloxi gets an expansion af2 team as soon as the MCC is fixed up. (hopefully 2008)

[exit322]

Mobile has had abysmal luck with indoor football...the af2 team aside, they had the IPFL/NIFL Seagulls that just didn't work out.

Fourcade was involved with the 2001 NIFL Mobile Seagulls until (I think) he punched the owner out during a game. He finished that year with the Louisiana Bayou Beast.

I'm sure he doesn't have fond memories of the NIFL (indoor football, maybe so as he did win a title in the IPFL in Biloxi in 2000, I think).

[herbenator21]

Danville is getting a big brother. Springfield, Illinois will announce Aug. 15th that they will join the AIFL.

[Minor League Man]

I thought they were joining the UIF?

[banannaman]

The Springfield team? The Stallions? If so, I think they will be folded mid season, they cant operate in a league like this (most teams cant operate in this league). They aren't joining the UIF, you have to have money to join that league.

[Geoff]

UIF has had Springfield mentioned many a time. Might not be the Stallions but tis just seems like an AIFL slap dash job to make Danville be not as much of a loner in Ill.

[NoBallinPDX]

This sounds more like insider/ behind-the-scenes politics to me. More often than not, one league will set up a team in a market...say, Springfield? regaurdless of whether or not the team survives a single season, if only for the sole purpose of shutting out any other leagues from that market. The problem with that strategy is, it has the potential of ruining that market for many years to come!

[Tatonka]

Precisely. There are issues in Danville and Springfield that they will have to overcome in order to be successful. Joining the right league would be the first step down that path.

[AK53]

Springfield still has no venue, unless someonebody's gonna convert one of the opera houses in Branson

[tony-o]

Springfield still has no venue, unless someonebody's gonna convert one of the opera houses in Branson
I think you are thinking of a different Springfield. The Stallions are from Illinois.

[Minor League Man]

Prairie Capital Convention Center (8,500).
Home of the Stallions.
Whichever league they play in.

[NoBallinPDX]

Springfield still has no venue, unless someonebody's gonna convert one of the opera houses in Branson
"Welcome to our combine son...How's your vertical leap? Can you sing?

[Geoff]

The Stallions still have links to the UIF rules page and a page on their own website that shows the teams in the UIF. Looks like they counted their chickens before they hatched and then had to go AIFL.

[herbenator21]

are you kidden we have a great venue. We played for the League Championship last year we went 10-2 over all. and yes last year we were a semi-pro team. but we were 6-0 at home. about the UIF we were going to the UIF but decided to go with the AIFL. I like starting in feb insted of mid march. the travel will cost a little more. but oh well it should be fun.

[Interested Observer]

Why would any team choose the AIFL over the UIF??

If you truly had a choice you would have gone to the UIF and replaced Peoria since everyone seems to think they will be gone next year anyway.

Someone mention Danville got a big brother in ref to Springfield. there are very few similarities between the 2 really Springfield is the Capital City and Danville is a factory town that everytime you turn around another plant is closing. I hope for both teams it works out but in reality AH is liable to run atleast 1 of the 2 markets into the ground good befor it is all said and done.

[Tatonka]

The Springfield they are referring too that has no facility yet is in Missouri, not Illinois.

Good luck in the AIFL Herb... how's that financing plan working out?

[gonzo13]

Hey Tatonka, what did the Legends decide to do?

[banannaman]

Your going AIFL because in the UIF you would have to pay to play. Good luck in the AIFL, maybe in 08 you can find enough money and go play in the UIF.

[Red Zone]

No matter who goes into the AIFL, it won't take long for them to see what a mistake they made.

[The Man, The Myth]

Hey Tatonka, what did the Legends decide to do?

Last information I had was that the Legends were staying in the AIFL. :(

[gonzo13]

I thought for sure you guys would be headed to the GLIFL. At least this way you'll be able to defend your title.

[Pounder]

Springfield may be in the A because the U rejected them. Financials, arena, any number of reasons. Remember due diligence?

[herbenator21]

Not true. In March of 06 I wanted to join the AIFL. the UIF was an option also because of where the teams were located. we missed the deadline for the app.

Pros
UIF
teams closer
teams finnish season

AIFL
start earlier
much easer to work with
return calls

Cons
UIF
hard to work with don't budge on some issues
start late Mid March

AIFL
travel going to cost more
had teams fold

and quit bashing teams and people
were all human we make mistakes forgive and go on

[Pounder]

I used the word "may," offering a suggestion, not stating a fact. Hey, it got you here for a correction. If that's true, thank you.

As for "don't bash," I respect your position. Try to respect mine.

(The following is more theory than practicality, only because I live nowhere near Springfield.)

It's my money. It's my job to be as defensive with my money as I can.

I know your job is to be positive; you want that money. You have to sell me on wanting to go. If you're doing this right, then you're a salesman, hence you HAVE to be positive. Just realize that I have every right not to be.

Telling me not to bash merely raises my suspicions. My negativity protects my positivity. Telling me how to think and act just doesn't wash with me- I offer no rewards for such requests. I do not get shamed into spending money.

[BarbaraPatterson]

Not true. In March of 06 I wanted to join the AIFL. the UIF was an option also because of where the teams were located. we missed the deadline for the app.
The AIFL was still selling teams in March, not sure why it would have been too late. At least it looks like they learned from their mistake last year and this year cutting things off earlier and not waiting till the last minute.

and quit bashing teams and people
were all human we make mistakes forgive and go on
Are you new to indoor football? Have you followed the league at all and their mistakes?

What happened to the AIFL forums? The minute people criticized the mistakes the AIFLs' response was to shut us fans out. I thought the purpose of the forums was to post criticize and offer "fans" a way to vent and communicate, also providing feedback to the leagues and teams. I'm still waiting for the mistake of shutting the forum down to be rectified.

Last year (2006 season) at least 1/2 of the teams left the league or folded. That doesn’t happen due to small mistakes.

You sound like a new "investor" in the league. I give you several months to figure out how much of a mistake that was. Dont worry though, we're all human and just like 1/2 of the team owners last year discovered, there is other options to move on.

[capcom]

Well Herbenator like you siad everyone makes mistakes, you just made a big one but good look next season.

[banannaman]

Im not quite sure that it was the AIFL that decided to shut down the message board. Just look at the site, its a joke, the web guy is gone, unpaid also.

[Red Zone]

Im not quite sure that it was the AIFL that decided to shut down the message board. Just look at the site, its a joke, the web guy is gone, unpaid also.

The AIFL message board was shut down long before the financial problems with their webmaster. The board was shut down in the middle of the playoffs when Richmond was told they had to forfeit their playoff game and the fans (of all teams, not just Richmond's) started an uprising. So the league decided the best way to quell the uprising was to shut down the boards.

[Tatonka]

The AIFL message board was shut down long before the financial problems with their webmaster. The board was shut down in the middle of the playoffs when Richmond was told they had to forfeit their playoff game and the fans (of all teams, not just Richmond's) started an uprising. So the league decided the best way to quell the uprising was to shut down the boards.

My friend, the financial issues with the web host/designer began well before the Richmond debacle, or even the Canton forfeit fiasco...

The league's sites were nearly shut down on many occasions, dating back to the 2005 season for late or non-payment.

[gonzo13]

And for the record, I wouldn't say that fans from ALL teams were part of said uprising.

[PIONEERSFAN101]

Am I the only one that thinks Springfield could be the Asheville of 2007?

[exit322]

I wouldn't call it that...Springfield already has an owner, and the guy's been on here telling everyone he owns this team. I don't believe Asheville had an owner until right before the season, did they?

The team's talent level may not be right up there with everyone else right this second, but they do have guys that played together a year with an 8-man system (albeit much different from the AIFL rule set). I still think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the Stallions and their competitiveness in the AIFL.