Let's put the blame on the right people!!!

[security]

To stur up the bee hive.....Let us put the blame on the right people who make these Indoor leagues suck..........



The team owners!!!!

Thats right I said it...the owners...I've been to games where there where pack in Rome Ga. and I've been to games in Charleston SC. and Alabama.. when we talk about the leagues having travel teams or teams like Charleston having to play a Semi - pro team at the last min...Well the first thing we say is " the league did it"....WRONG.....The so called travel team was based in Ashville with owners who had not idea how to run a team, but they made it sound good, so they got money together and BAM!!!..Indoor football...or lets look at Charleston they had a game and then BAM!!!! you've got to play a semi - pro team because the team folded....Is that the leagues fault...Some would say yes others would say no...I would say NO...Now don't get me wrong the NIFL managment sucks when the issue of playoff and rules come around and when the league is run by a team owner who can't keep her team going well, BAM !!! here we are again with a owner not being able to keep her team going...There are ways to stop the madness...but the owners need to come together and help put an end to it rather than put another league together......Look at Alabama. The owner sucked, then BAM!!!! another owner come in and turns the team around....Colubus Ga. team owner BAM!! gone....Why?...dosent know how to run a team but he would put the blame on the media saying "we didnt get media covereage" WHAT IN THE H$!! the media made you fold...What league made any team fold.now we blame media..how about saying "I just dont know how to run a team, I need help". ....we can go around and around about this but lets look at how many teams started out wih big dreams and big money and now, You Got It,,,BAM!!!!!! gone....Why because of the league?...NO The team didnt have a good owner......

Just think about it??????

[baydaddy77]

Good post Security!

Yes, many of the problems lie with the owners who (in most cases) get involve to make a lot of money without having proper financial backing. The old saying, "You have to spend money to make money" is perfect for the minor league systems. You must promote, promote and then promote all while delivering a product that is fun and affordable.

The one piece you missed, though, was the fact that these owners would never see the light of day if the leagues themselves conducted proper financial due diligence before handing out a franchise. Lets face it, if you don't have $250k liquidity just sitting around, you don't need to be in this business.

On a side note, I live in Columbia, what's the deal with a Columbia team in 2008?

[tony-o]

I think that some problems are league-caused (like messing up the schedule just because the AIFL couldn't afford to travel the Soldiers) and some are team-caused(like the Ghostriders failing, and Florida not traveling to Charleston).

[Pounder]

Most leagues really are run by the owners, so an errant commissioner is usually replaced in short order. Of course, one can ask how Richard Brosal seems to have a job, though I suspect it's because he's merely as crooked as the lot of UHL owners.

Owners in the NIFL seem to have no recourse against Carolyn Shiver but to leave. Is it a different structure? Who the heck knows? In the meantime, Shiver's PR sense leaves a whole freaking lot to be desired.

You'd think the owners could stage a coup on both NIFL and AIFL... but it's hard to see an improvement without a name change for one or both leagues. Even then, the well might be poisoned in too many markets.

[gonzo13]

Security, great post. That's the point I've been preaching on one board or another for a long time now. While various league management does make a mistake or two with a travel team or whatever, why was there a travel team to begin with?? Heck it's already been said. Again, great post Security

[security]

The Columbia SC. area will get a Indoor or Arena League team in 2008...Name?.....I dont know ....But, the guys who will be backing the team said that the AFL2 would bethe way they wanted to go.....They have the money but as far as managment goes they are looking to bring in a managment group to make sure the team wont fold at the end of 2008.......More info will come later in 2007....

[BarbaraPatterson]

I think that some problems are league-caused (like messing up the schedule just because the AIFL couldn't afford to travel the Soldiers) and some are team-caused(like the Ghostriders failing, and Florida not traveling to Charleston).
Ghostriders failing a team problem? Last I read, the league admitted to hiring the sleezebag that stole the money, last I read the league is on the hook for $400K + in damages to the owner.

As another poster stated, if an owner doesnt have $250K + sitting around, then the league is responsible to tell these owners that they are not qualified to buy a team. Most franchising companies have financial requirements for owners to get involved, its not unusual.

When a league sells a team to someone who cant afford it, then the league holds the ultimate responsibility.

When a league messes up schedules and makes promises that they cant, or wont deliver upon, the league holds the ultimate responsibility.

[BarbaraPatterson]

To stur up the bee hive.....Let us put the blame on the right people who make these Indoor leagues suck..........

The team owners!!!!

Just think about it??????
What a bunch of BS.

If the problems are with the owners, please explain to me why the south teams are leaving to form their own league? They made it through the season, and you would assume financially able to afforded to support their teams through the year, (be it profitable or at a loss). There would be no reason for the south teams to leave if there wasnt problems.

[gonzo13]

Where is everyone hearing that the Southern teams are forming their own league. I live in Rome, and I CLOSELY follow the Renegades and I haven't heard a word one way or the other. If the South teams do leave, maybe it won't be a surprise, but let's not report it until it happens.....

[gonzo13]

Ok, folks, Now it has happened. The south HAS formed their own league I don't know all of the details but now it's a fact.......But I'd still like to know where everyone has been hearing about it for the last 6 months....I mean OTHER than a message board.

[preeths]

If you pick the right message boards, you can get some great information!

[gonzo13]

I agree there is a good deal of accurate information, but it's usually under a pile of speculation. Usually it has more to do with the poster than it does the particular board.

[preeths]

Good information comes from good sources, that's for sure. When we see something that doesn't look right, we also try to question the poster to see if he actually has good info or is just trying to mislead.

[security]

So, people we see the new indoor league started by owners......Yes, owners...Owners who have good teams that didn't fold, miss games or any other bull that you can come up with. So lets look at the owners of the teams in the WIFL....Is there any teams that didn't show up to play a game because of no money or BLAME the league for there short comings......NO!....As I said be for and I'll say it again Temas make up the league...NO TEAMS....NO LEAGUE!!!!!....AIFL lost teams ...NIFL Lost teams and will loose more befor its said and done......PIFL...WIFL....UIFL....GLIFL.....adding teams that will be around.....but without the teams there would be no LEAGUE..

[BarbaraPatterson]

So, people we see the new indoor league started by owners......Yes, owners...Owners who have good teams that didn't fold, miss games or any other bull that you can come up with. So lets look at the owners of the teams in the WIFL....Is there any teams that didn't show up to play a game because of no money or BLAME the league for there short comings......NO!....As I said be for and I'll say it again Temas make up the league...NO TEAMS....NO LEAGUE!!!!!....AIFL lost teams ...NIFL Lost teams and will loose more befor its said and done......PIFL...WIFL....UIFL....GLIFL.....adding teams that will be around.....but without the teams there would be no LEAGUE..
You need to preface what your saying by explaining what you mean by

"Who's to blame"

Who's to blame for what?

Whos to blame for the teams leaving?
Who's to blame for the teams folding?
Who's to blame for teams being suspended?
Who's to blame for this website being so slow?

Yout cant sit down and blame an owner, without knowing why an owner has taken the action they have taken. WHY did these leagues lose teams? In this business its mostly ego driven. In this business, leagues need to atract high income, hard working individuals with lots of contacts.

When an owner of a team has more money than the owner of the league something is wrong. These teams are selling for good money and I'm left with nothing else to wonder but whats the leagues doing with the tens and hundreds of thousands they are getting.

When the owner of a teams are paying $1300 a month to a league, and has 14 teams you shouldnt hear stories of the leagues bounced $100 checks. When owners pay tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars to a league for the right to open up a team, you shouldnt hear stories of teams folding 4-5 games into the year. With $200K+ in franchising fees coming into the league, along with revenue from sales of teams there should be no reason that these leagues cant pay their bills.

Its the leagues job to make sure that potential team owners can afford the teams that they are buying.

Its the leagues job to make sure that team owners are in a position to afford to take over teams that are not in a position to run those teams, WITHOUT BOUNCING CHECKS!!

The teams forming the new WIFL are all established already. Why would they leave their respective leagues if they think their leagues were doing their jobs and holding up to their committments?

[gonzo13]

The bottom line here is that the owners are to blame first. Granted the leagues make alot of mistakes, but it's usually in the wake of some owners follies. You can research a persons financial status until the cows come home, but there's no way to predict what an owner will do once he's actually in the position.

[BarbaraPatterson]

Granted the leagues make alot of mistakes, but it's usually in the wake of some owners follies
You need to give me an example of this, especially given that the league owns these teams first and most of these follies happen very close to after a purchase of the team. Makes me wonder how many of these problems existed prior to the sale to the owners.

You can research a persons financial status until the cows come home,
Not only did one of these leagues not research the financial status of at least one of the teams owners, they encouraged the buyer to buy the team even though they knew that limited funds were available to invest in a team and still encouraged the sale.

When the league sets a team up to fail by failing to disclose information, by lying and making up false financial data, and out right lying about assets thats supposed to be included in the sale soley for the fact of dumping the team because the league doesnt want (or cant run) them, the league is responsible for its failure.

If you think the owners are responsbile then someone needs to tell me why these established teams are all leaving to form their own league. If I was responsible as a team owner, I wouldnt be forming my own league, I'd be dumping the team to some other sucker.

[preeths]

The bottom line here is that the owners are to blame first. Granted the leagues make alot of mistakes, but it's usually in the wake of some owners follies. You can research a persons financial status until the cows come home, but there's no way to predict what an owner will do once he's actually in the position.

If this were simply a team ownership issue, we'd see the same magnitude of problems spread across all leagues. We don't.

I don't think you can let some of the leagues off that easily. First, some of these franchises are being set up without outside ownership with the idea of trying to sell them later on. Once the league sees cash draining out, it hooks whoever it can find to take over the team, and they inevitably run into trouble. Second, I have seen a new team prospectus from a league and the costs of owning a team are laughably underestimated.

In a lot of cases, the league is to blame first, for its poor choice of ownership and for misleading new team owners about true costs. Yes, some owners do a poor job, but many wouldn't be owners if the league was more selective and truthful.

[gonzo13]

Look guys, I'm not trying to totally exonerate the leagues.The leagues should be totally forthcoming with all the the financial information involved with owning a team when pitching to a perspective owner.And, it's obvious that the business model of starting a team, setting up the venue, and THEN finding an owner doesn't work. My point is: Even after all of that the owners should still bear at least the majority of the blame when a team folds in mid season. Most of these team owners have been successful business people long before they got into football. They should know to do some research for themselves before commiting to buying a team and then bailing out at the first sign of trouble. If they'd do that they may see before hand that it's either not worth it for them, or that they don't mind the cost. Minor league indoor football isn't new anymore, there are many veteran owners of these teams. It's really as simple as contacting a few of them to find out what the real numbers are.
Again, I'm not trying to let any of these clowns (league presidents) off the hook. But I think the owners shouldn't be let off the hook either.

[preeths]

No, I agree with you that ownership shouldn't get away scott-free when a franchise runs into trouble. But I was talking about this just yesterday with someone involved in another sport, and he was saying how some leagues feed off the dreams of potential owners, not caring whether they have any chance to make it. There are a lot of people who really want to own a pro sports franchise but few of them can afford it. Unfortunately, as long as their expansion fee check clears, the bad leagues accept them as owners. That's not right as the leagues have a better idea of what the owners are getting into than the new owners do. The owners are oftentimes guilty of naivete and stroking their own egos, but league leadership is guilty of misleading them and setting them up to fail. That not only hurts these underfunded owners, but the good owners as well when they are forced to play against replacement teams or cancel games.

[SignGuyDino]

Let's look at the Asheville DebtChasers situation:

Despite little notice...despite an arena with a seriously bad condition and history...despite all of that...1,800 showed up to give this team a chance.

There were local coaches along with a head coach with some experience in indoor football. The media asked questions but were pretty much fair and gave the team a shot.

Had there been a serious production with serious infrastructure....THEY'D STILL BE THERE.

Nothing I have ever said on these boards touch anything the local media did bashing all of the clowns involved.

Now let's see what happened afterwards...Dix blamed the AIFL, the AIFL blamed Dix, Boyd brings in Jim Terry the Clown with his completely fraudulent credentials.

Boyd cancels the "V.I.P. Section" despite the fact they were a CONTRACTUAL committment of the team (indeed, the only reason to get the lower level seats, anyone with any sense knows that the upstairs cheap seats actually have a better view). He claims that he isn't contractually responsible for the previous owner (which was the league).

THAT'S COMPLETE RUBBISH!!

After the DebtChasers leave Asheville in complete disgrace, Boyd has the audacity of telling us who were screwed out of season tickets (and the hard-earned money behind it) to take it to the police and not him or the league.

No thanks.

Boyd and Jim Terry the Clown had the audacity to appear in the NIFL chat room last night to defend themselves, saying it's all Dix's fault...it's all Haines' fault.

Nobody gets it: IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT. THEY DESERVED EACH OTHER AND THEY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED.

On top of that I was treated to Jim Terry the Clown's well-known dirty language that all successful business people say in public in front of teenagers in a chat room.

I'm sure if I'm in a business venture the first thing I'll do is NOT examine the books and the equipment personally, change the terms of contracts after the money is spent and claim "those aren't my obligations," act shocked and angry when the venture fails, and sue everywhere.

An out-of-state judgment doesn't change the reality that this owner did not do any due diligence and is just as responsible for the Asheville debacle.

Blacklist. For indoor football to survive these four clowns (and those of their ilk) MUST be publicly blacklisted forever from every league.

[BarbaraPatterson]

Obviously you have been misled and not informed of what really happened so let me correct you on some of your points.

Let's look at the Asheville DebtChasers situation:

Despite little notice...despite an arena with a seriously bad condition and history...despite all of that...1,800 showed up to give this team a chance..[/b]
1800 people showed up because Boyd paid for advertising with several radio stations. What you dont know is that Boyd was handed a $10,000 + bill, along with $40,000 in other contract obligations with Clear Channel the AIFL handed to him that was not disclosed upon the purchase. Are you aware that the purchase of the team included $10,000 in equipment that was never delivered? Are you aware that the league never even provided the teams with footballs? (Boyd has been calling around trying to get an official AIFL football)

Had there been a serious production with serious infrastructure....THEY'D STILL BE THERE[/b]
Boyd owned the team for less then a month and spent over $125,000 on it. Everything needed was paid cash up front and he financed nothing. Walking away and shutting down the Ghostriders is something I'm sure he didnt take lightly.

In order for the team to play in Asheville it had to be a "corporation", something that wasnt even setup. How did the AIFL, who was not a corporation at the time, plan to run the Ghostriders without a "corporation" in place?

Are you aware that the fact that the arena required $25,000 worth of light covers for the arena was also not disclosed to Boyd to protect customers in the event a light broke? (Boyd re-negoatied the lease to add an additional insurance policy because the arena couldnt install the covers in time).

How did the AIFL, a non corporation plan to play in an arena that required a NC corporation status, and $25,000 in light covers before they could even play a game.

The fact is the AIFL had no intention of playing in Asheville.. Boyd offered the AIFL money, the AIFL seen a way out of the arena lease and took it.
Now let's see what happened afterwards...Dix blamed the AIFL, the AIFL blamed Dix, Boyd brings in Jim Terry the Clown with his completely fraudulent credentials.[/b]
So lets get this straight, Dix, Jim Terry, blames the AIFL.

Boyd blames Dix and the AIFL

The AIFL blames Boyd and Dix, but fails to even argue that in court.

The court system blames the AIFL, Dix, BizSellers, and Haines with a $435,000 judgment (now part of public records)

Boyd cancels the "V.I.P. Section" despite the fact they were a CONTRACTUAL committment of the team (indeed, the only reason to get the lower level seats, anyone with any sense knows that the upstairs cheap seats actually have a better view). He claims that he isn't contractually responsible for the previous owner (which was the league)[/b]
Again incorrect. Boyd ran the first away game, the first home game, and brought in Jim Terry to replace Dix. The second game in Boyd organized but the AIFL took over in the middle of the week. Even the AIFL told the players they would be paid by the AIFL. Even the press announced that the AIFL was planning to take over the Ghostriders, but what they didnt say was that they already controlled it, not Boyd.

After the DebtChasers leave Asheville in complete disgrace, Boyd has the audacity of telling us who were screwed out of season tickets (and the hard-earned money behind it) to take it to the police and not him or the league.[/b]
General Managers are not employees of the teams they work for. Its standard. Are you aware that there was $38,000 in stolen tickets? Boyd upheld his reponsibility by providing tickets that were paid for to the GhostRiders (If I recall through Ticketmasters). Asking Boyd to reinburse for tickets stolen off of him is like asking a drug dealer to pay for crack because the buyer got busted reselling the dope. Reinbursing the tickets would have been good PR for a team folded and the lawsuit actually included those people who bought tickets but didnt receive them, meaning if he ever collected the judgment, he would have to pay the customers. If he didnt care, why sue for customers money?

Boyd and Jim Terry the Clown had the audacity to appear in the NIFL chat room last night to defend themselves, saying it's all Dix's fault...it's all Haines' fault[/b]
First, I dont recall Boyd blaming anyone in the chat room, he did more lurking then anything, and second, I'm not even sure that was Boyd. Anyone could sign on as anyone else with an open chatroom.

I'm sure if I'm in a business venture the first thing I'll do is NOT examine the books and the equipment personally, change the terms of contracts after the money is spent and claim "those aren't my obligations," act shocked and angry when the venture fails, and sue everywhere.[/b]
Most buyers do this but when your lied to going into the business, and given false "audited" statements its tough for a buyer to know they are getting into a sham. When a contract states you get A, and the league never provides A, then the league has not fufilled their agreement. When someone provides you with fake accounting statements can you really blame a buyer? Audited statements are legally binding and stating that you have audited statements when you dont is a crime.

An out-of-state judgment doesn't change the reality that this owner did not do any due diligence and is just as responsible for the Asheville debacle.[/b]
An out of state judgment is just as enforcible as an in state judgment. I'm left with the question why the lawsuit wasnt fought?

Dont get me wrong.. I'm not saying that the owners (Boyd in this instance) hold no blame for the fiasco if teams fold, what I am saying is that leagues should be selling teams to financially stable individuals for the purpose of establishing long term relationships, instead of selling teams for the purpose of getting the league out of their own troubled situations and pocketing cash. Everything I seen from Boyd says to me that he might have been a good partner in the Ghostriders, but not a sole owner.

[gonzo13]

No, I agree with you that ownership shouldn't get away scott-free when a franchise runs into trouble. But I was talking about this just yesterday with someone involved in another sport, and he was saying how some leagues feed off the dreams of potential owners, not caring whether they have any chance to make it. There are a lot of people who really want to own a pro sports franchise but few of them can afford it. Unfortunately, as long as their expansion fee check clears, the bad leagues accept them as owners. That's not right as the leagues have a better idea of what the owners are getting into than the new owners do. The owners are oftentimes guilty of naivete and stroking their own egos, but league leadership is guilty of misleading them and setting them up to fail. That not only hurts these underfunded owners, but the good owners as well when they are forced to play against replacement teams or cancel games.
Imagine that...after all the round-and-round, we're both on the same page afterall. :grin:

[SignGuyDino]

Were you there, BP? Because I was. I was at the Civic Center Commission meetings. Every one the last two years. Was at the press conference with the Mayor. Was at the games. So were some of the Council members who allowed all of them to be there.

Let Boyd come to Asheville with a totally new team to be proposed and see how far he gets with our Civic Center Commission.

Read the paper where Robert Boyd is QUOTED as saying he's cancelling the "V.I.P. area" because it wasn't his responsibility. And this was announced AFTER game 1. THIS IS UNDISPUTED FACT.

I don't have sympathy for someone buying a team who doesn't come to Asheville and examine everything for himself. Especially when he broke contractual agreements with me and other season ticket holders.

Please spare me. They're all crooks. I don't care about degrees of crookedness or incompetence. Neither will anyone involved with the City of Asheville again. This league will NEVER be allowed in Asheville again.

[BarbaraPatterson]

Were you there, BP? Because I was. I was at the Civic Center Commission meetings. Was at the press conference. Was at the games. So were some of the Council members who allowed all of them to be there.

Read the paper where Robert Boyd is QUOTED as saying he's cancelling the "V.I.P. area" because it wasn't his responsibility. And this was announced AFTER game 1. THIS IS UNDISPUTED FACT.

I don't have sympathy for someone buying a team who doesn't come to Asheville and examine everything for himself. Especially when he broke contractual agreements with me and other season ticket holders.

Please spare me. They're all crooks. I don't care about degrees of crookedness or incompetence. Neither will anyone involved with the City of Asheville again. This league will NEVER be allowed in Asheville again.
For the life of me, I cant figure out why this league is being allowed in any city with whats going on.

[SignGuyDino]

According to this, Boyd owned the team for WEEKS before they played a down.

I'm not buying that he had no way of knowing what was going on.

Either he was completely incompetent, crooked, or some mix...

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060209/SPORTS07/60209002/1002

This is why these two new leagues should minimize their risk and go with better markets for a while.

[BarbaraPatterson]

According to this, Boyd owned the team for WEEKS before they played a down.

I'm not buying that he had no way of knowing what was going on.

Either he was completely incompetent, crooked, or some mix...

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060209/SPORTS07/60209002/1002

This is why these two new leagues should minimize their risk and go with better markets for a while.
Right.. weeks, that should clearly be enough time to form a corporation, which takes a month usually, renegoate leases, obtain insurances, liability, workers compensation, and whatever insurance is needed, purchase players equipment that was supposed to be included with the purchase, setup housing for players and contractors, form a team of football players, arrange transportation for away games, setup offices, including equipment, phone lines, internet connections, cable lines, negotiate advertising contracts, setup ticketmasters, purchase turf, along with whatever else is involved with setting up a team.

If you can do that in just a few short weeks, and get 1800 people to show up, then your hired!! I seriously doubt any owner would buy a team with just a few weeks to go before play unless they were somehow mislead as to what was already done and included with the purchase, especially since the article clearly states he was interested in Steubenville Ohio, (another team leaving the AIFL, announcement pending a new lease) not Asheville.

Lets not even state the fact that the AIFL never made payroll to Smith or Dix prior to the purchase meaning nothing was done when he purchased it. Even Haines admitted that teams were sold to late in the year for owners to be effective.

While Boyd should have done more research, I havent heard that he bounced any checks, can the same be made for other teams and the leagues?

All the evidence I need to see is that the AIFL has lost over 1/2 half of their teams in one year. Obviously not all of these owners can be classified as incompetent. Something is wrong.

[SignGuyDino]

UHH...most businessmen get copies of the lease in advance. The insurance. They physically come to the site and verify the assets.

If there was ANY problem he should have said "no" before buying the team and left it at that. This team was known to have been trying to come here since June 2005. The moment he bought the team he is just as responsible. I don't care who screwed who because SOMEBODY has an obligation to the fans and that SOMEBODY is the CURRENT owner.

My friend Coach Phil Lytle didn't trust any of the "new" people, why should I?

We shouldn't associate with ANYONE who is shady or completely incapable of due diligence in sports. Don't care how much he or anyone else defends him on message boards.

ROBERT BOYD ASSUMED THE DEBTS AND is responsible for the obligations for the perks of the season tickets. HE owes me $240 from lost tickets.

Not that I would ever accept it...wouldn't take money from him if my kids were starving in the streets.

[BarbaraPatterson]

UHH...most businessmen get copies of the lease in advance. The insurance. They physically come to the site and verify the assets.

If there was ANY problem he should have said "no" before buying the team and left it at that. This team was known to have been trying to come here since June 2005. The moment he bought the team he is just as responsible. I don't care who screwed who because SOMEBODY has an obligation to the fans and that SOMEBODY is the CURRENT owner.

My friend Coach Phil Lytle didn't trust any of the "new" people, why should I?

We shouldn't associate with ANYONE who is shady or completely incapable of due diligence in sports. Don't care how much he or anyone else defends him on message boards.

ROBERT BOYD ASSUMED THE DEBTS AND is responsible for the obligations for the perks of the season tickets. HE owes me $240 from lost tickets.

Not that I would ever accept it...wouldn't take money from him if my kids were starving in the streets.
So Haines has been trying for years to bring the Ghostriders (or another team) into Asheville, looks like he found his sucker to do it for him.

Your contradicting yourself there, you state that the current owner is responsible to the fans, and then you say that Robert Boyd is responsible. Which is it? Robert Boyd doesnt own the Ghostriders, or did you not see the $435,000 judgment against the AIFL because Boyd doesnt have the team?

Workers compesation, and General Liability insurance doesnt work that way. There is no need for someone to physically show up and write an insurance policy, they are based upon accounts receivable and accounts payable estimates, and then audits are completed at the end of the season to adjust the amount of the insurance.

I'm not stating that Boyd has no blame in this, he shouldnt have been a sole owner in any team, let alone a team in Asheville with such a shaky background with minor teams. All I'm stating is that Boyd, along with the citizens of Asheville got screwed by a league who simply wanted a check. The amount of the screwing just depends on how much they lost. I know for a fact that the WIFL wont even consider the city for a team, no idea how much thats worth.

btw, I just checked citizen-times for a story about the current events with the AIFL, teams leaving, money owed etc, nothing, any news in the area with the current activity?

On a further note, all I need to see is the sales agreement for the AIFL to GRWW to realise what type of ownership is running AIFL.
Section 3.5 - Litigation.
Except as provided herein, there are no formal or informal complaints, investigations, claims, charges, arbitration, grievances, actions, suits, or proceedings pending, or to the knowledge of Seller threatened against any of the Purchased Assets at law or in equity or admiralty, or before or by any federal, state, municipal, or other governmental department, commission, board, bureau, agency, or instrumentality, domestic or foreign which would affect the purchased assets materially. Seller is not subject to any order, writ, injunction, or decree of any federal, state, municipal court, or other governmental department, commission, board, bureau, agency, or instrumentality, domestic or foreign, affecting the Purchased Assets

Section 4.3 - Litigation.
There is no suit, action, proceeding, claim or investigation pending, or, to Purchaser’s knowledge, threatened, against Purchaser which would prevent Purchaser from consummating the transactions contemplated by this Agreement.

No current litigation? No judgment? Did they happen to forget about that $435K judgment? Do you think the league was nieve enough to not know about the teams leaving, or do you think the rest of the sales agreement stating that all teams were solid, and none planning to leave was true? If he lied to try to sell the league, what do you think he'd do to sell a team?

[SignGuyDino]

By your semantic nonsense, if Charlie Brown bought the team rights for a dollar and became the "current owner," should I now blame him for everything that went down?

WHO exactly was the "current owner" when all these things went down?

As I already pointed out, it was ROBERT BOYD. OWNED THE TEAM FOR WEEKS BEFORE THE FIRST GAME.

At the time the turf was in, Boyd was the current owner.

At the time Boyd said no V.I.P. lounge for the top season ticket holders, Boyd was the current owner.

At the time a good coach was fired and his staff quit, for of all people, Jim Terry the Clown, Boyd was the current owner.

At the time the team was bought, BOYD was ultimately responsible for the turf, the equipment, etc.

I can see I'm wasting my time with you because you don't get it.

Followed the local sports scene for 10 years. I've seen the clowns come and go. Seen how the previous hockey team flat out broke their lease and lied to folks about a plethera of things. I knew about the character of these folks before they got here and warned the City not to let them in, for that, I got smeared on message boards and radio by that team and some "fans" for daring to point out that the City made a mistake bringing them in, for daring to point out what lowlifes this team's management was.

Turned out I was 100% right on all counts about them. Just as I am here.

You DON'T know everything that went down. I have a perspective you simply don't have. When I say there are reasons why I didn't trust Boyd, it comes from experience. Let's just say I have other information about Boyd's experience in Asheville you don't have and don't feel like sharing because I'm not going to waste my time with hopeless defenders like you.

I just hope you never get to a point where you can decide on letting Boyd in anybody else's arena because your attempts to try to defend Boyd are pointless. If you wish to come to Civic Center Commission meetings in Asheville and defend Boyd, be my guest.

I wouldn't trust any of them with my kids let alone any more of my money. Many people in Asheville feel the same exact way.

The revisionist history of JT and Boyd is getting hysterical around here from certain folks.

Some people complicate what is simple: Don't ever trust dishonest people. It's public knowledge Boyd BROKE CONTRACTS WITH THE FANS by killing the V.I.P. lounge. So he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt with me. He's just as responsible.

Stop defending Boyd, he is hardly an angel in this.

[BarbaraPatterson]

By your semantic nonsense, if Charlie Brown bought the team rights for a dollar and became the "current owner," should I now blame him for everything that went down?
My point exactly. If Charlie Brown bought a team for a dollar, the league should be off the hook?
Boyd had the following options open to him.
1) Lie to other potential buyers like the AIFL did to him, in order to sell it to Charlie Brown
2) Close up shop when he ran out of money.
3) Write out checks to people and let the checks bounce.

It sounds to me like you would have more respect for Boyd if he lied to unload it like the AIFL did. Explain the rationality in that. The lawsuit showed that Boyd ran out of money after spending $155,000. If that's all Boyd had, then he shouldn't have been sole owner in a team.

WHO exactly was the "current owner" when all these things went down?
As I already pointed out, it was ROBERT BOYD. OWNED THE TEAM FOR WEEKS BEFORE THE FIRST GAME.

At the time the turf was in, Boyd was the current owner.

At the time Boyd said no V.I.P. lounge for the top season ticket holders, Boyd was the current owner.

At the time a good coach was fired and his staff quit, for of all people, Jim Terry the Clown, Boyd was the current owner.

At the time the team was bought, BOYD was ultimately responsible for the turf, the equipment, etc.

I can see I'm wasting my time with you because you don't get it.
Are you aware that the coach is accused of stealing $2500 in players' tryout money? I can already see you're too emotionally attached to the story to look at all of the evidence and think about it rationally. You have already made up your mind and obviously that's fine.

Followed the local sports scene for 10 years. I've seen the clowns come and go. Seen how the previous hockey team flat out broke their lease and lied to folks about a plethera of things. I knew about the character of these folks before they got here and warned the City not to let them in, for that, I got smeared on message boards and radio by that team and some "fans" for daring to point out that the City made a mistake bringing them in, for daring to point out what lowlifes this team's management was.

Turned out I was 100% right on all counts about them. Just as I am here.So lets get this straight, Asheville trusted the AIFL, Boyd trusted the AIFL, but obviously they both were wrong.

You DON'T know everything that went down. I have a perspective you simply don't have. When I say there are reasons why I didn't trust Boyd, it comes from experience. Let's just say I have other information about Boyd's experience in Asheville you don't have and don't feel like sharing because I'm not going to waste my time with hopeless defenders like you.

I just hope you never get to a point where you can decide on letting Boyd in anybody else's arena because your attempts to try to defend Boyd are pointless. If you wish to come to Civic Center Commission meetings in Asheville and defend Boyd, be my guest.I know more what went down then you can imagine because I have dealings with more team owners then most people. The team owners know exactly what happened (maybe a possible explanation for 1/2 the teams leaving... mmmm) I heard about audited statements that a buyer received, and turned out to be made up. I heard about how an owner lost $500,000 this year running a team, and about how Boyd is nearly bankrupt over it. I've seens the sales agreement with the AIFL and GRWW, showing that the AIFL wasnt being sued, at a time that the AIFL clearly knew they were. I'm seen the lawsuit papers showing that the AIFL knew that Boyd had limited funds to invest (far less then the $155K he put into it) and the AIFL sold it to him anyways. Lets not even get to all of the press stories from the AIFL that are laughable.

Finally, I'm not again stating that Boyd holds no blame. This posting is about who is more to blame, the leagues or the team owners, given the choice, and given all of the evidence I have showing how much the league had lied to team owners, I'd have to say the leagues.

When teams sell from one owner to another then the league holds responsibility to do a background check and make sure the new owners are in a situation to finacially afford the teams.

Team owners responsbility is to sell their team.
Team leagues responsibility is to secure the stability of the league and teams.

The problem exists when a league is the team owner, there is to much financial incentive in skipping steps to make sure the buyer is qualified. When a league fails to do all of the steps, they hold the ultimate responsibility.

[security]

Me.......Man, looks like BarbaraPatterson has alot of information there.....Boy you got it going on.....Well BP I know it hit a nerve.....just look at your post!!! Well I know the information you give out is correct but, If you could just step back and think.......(don't talk just think)...Ok?..... Ready?


lets go:



NFL: which team dosent show up to games?

answer: NONE

Ok lets not go that high. We will bring it down a little, we both know the indoor leagues are not the NFL and the teams aren't big time owners but, they try to be by selling us the fan a dream.....(A bad dream)

CFL: Which team folded during the season?

answer: NONE

Ok..OK.still too high they are pro football but, thats what the Indoor football owners tells us they are no matter what league they are in..

Ok....Now the last anf final question...(Hold on to your hat)

how many pro football teams change leagues because they dont like the league or the rules? (NFL, CFL, AFL)

Answer: NONE

Now I know you love your teams in your area, H$!! I love the teams in the south when they dont fold...But the teams make up the league (NFL, CFL, AFL) they look at the rules and if they dont like them then they do what .....You got it change them...Why would a owner be in a league that they know will screw them....The NIFL sucks but If owner stays in the league then you better make sure the fan is happy with your team...We dont care about the league ...we dont go to league meetings and sit down to cheer during the meetings we go to the game and want to see our home town boys win and when the team folds because the owner didnt do his home work and leaves us the fan out in the cold...well I hope you see where Im going with this...But if you dont then I'll just leave you with this ....If the team you love in your area goes to the league meeting mybe you should go cheer them on .....I WONT BE AS FUN TO WATCH......(u may now return to your regular scheduled programing) good luck in 2007


Security of the first world

[BarbaraPatterson]

So you now agree with me, and you just dont realise it. Let me show you in your own posting.

Me.......Man, looks like BarbaraPatterson has alot of information there.....Boy you got it going on.....Well BP I know it hit a nerve.....just look at your post!!! Well I know the information you give out is correct but, If you could just step back and think.......(don't talk just think)...Ok?..... Ready?
I talk to people who own nearly 6 of the teams almost daily. People have no idea truly happened and why some of it never became public.


NFL: which team dosent show up to games?
answer: NONE

CFL: Which team folded during the season?
answer: NONE

Ok....Now the last anf final question...(Hold on to your hat)
how many pro football teams change leagues because they dont like the league or the rules? (NFL, CFL, AFL)
Answer: NONE

BINGO!! Why didnt these teams fold, change leagues, have replacement teams throught the year? Because the leagues they represent did their job and made sure the buyers were fully qualified prior to their purchase. When a league does not do sufficient research on an owners stability prior to a teams purchase, then the league is responsible for the problems that exist when they fail.

[gonzo13]

BP, Just curious...What position do you hold where you have all this contact with owners?

[BarbaraPatterson]

BP, Just curious...What position do you hold where you have all this contact with owners?
I have contacts with the AIFL, WIFL, EIFL, GLIFL, and one contact with the NIFL. The only leagues I really follow is the WIFL and AIFL though.

[gonzo13]

Well don't take this the wrong way, but anybody that logs onto this board can claim those connections....Do you care to elaborate?

[BarbaraPatterson]

Well don't take this the wrong way, but anybody that logs onto this board can claim those connections....Do you care to elaborate?
Dont take this peronal but no. Take what I say as something on a forum you heard, but I havent said anything thats turned out incorrect yet.

[11HP20]

Dont take this peronal but no. Take what I say as something on a forum you heard, but I havent said anything thats turned out incorrect yet.


BP I have yet to hear anyone deny your accuracy. With that in mind what's tonight's Missouri Lottery numbers.
On a little more serious note think on this. Every sport with a long history looks back to a time similar to this point in indoor football history. Mistakes, involving the wrong people, outright stupidity, etc. I don't think indoor football will ever be like the NFL or MLB. Still a time will come when things are run more smoothly and honestly. What are you going to do when there's not so much soup to dish out?;)

[gonzo13]

Like 11hp20 said, I've never doubted your accuracy. I don't agree with you in this particular thread (let's not open that can of worms again) but I never thought you were lying or making things up. It's just that like to research things that I read on here, which I know you are a big advocate of. I guess that's what spun me into this line of questioning.

[RichmondSpeed]

There is only one problem with these league.......and that would be the league letting in teams that that shouldn't be. Make them pay their dues up front, so we wont have forfeits come week 8.

[LoudMouth]

To be an Owner in the NIFL:

1) You need $5,000 to give the league and purchase an insurance policy (to protect the league against liability) ......bingo you have a team.

2) Now, find a venue that won't ask for a huge amount up front to let you play.

3) Find small businesses owners that will buy advertising on anything you sell.

4) find suckers in your community to buy a small percent of your team at and call them co-owners.

5) find small business owners to front you your office equipment, office space, build you a web site, print t-shirts and order jerseys. Maybe lease you a car, give you free cell phone service. Welcome to the NIFL.

5) find local media dumb enough to come to your press conference.

6) find young men that hunger for the spot light, you invite them to try out for an NIFL team (as long as they bring $75 in cash for tryouts).

7) Then don't pay your vendors or sponsors, and before long, your players, coaches and sales people.

8) Best of all, when the fire gets too hot, you move to another city, and start all over......

What a great life........being and NIFL Owner....

[Bandito]

That could be true in any league not just the NIFL. That's where the league leadership comes in. They are responsible for ensuring the integrity of the owners is up to league standards.