See it for what it is

[Ex CBA Lover]

Is it just me or is something very odd about the teams leaving the CBA. Or should I say is there something in common the owners that were left hanging have in common. Well if you didn't see it I will tell you all the owners left in the CBA are minorities. Gary and Michigan owned by African Americans, Yakima owned by Native Americans and of course Albany I'm assuming that Fernandez is some type of Hispanic or Spanish background. Odd or is the true colors of the CBA coming out now.

[preeths]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, before we pull the race card, what were some of the reasons the departing owners cited for leaving? I've seen absolutely no allusion to race or anything that would make me suspect that it played even a tiny part in the move to the D-League for any CBA owner.

[Ex CBA Lover]

I was just stating a fact!!!! On the other hand you are stating an assumption?????

[Jamie]

I would like to point out that all of the owners mentioned above are oxygen breathing humanoids.

A fact!

Makes you wonder...

[preeths]

No assumption was stated at all. I aked a question (which I notice you ignored) and stated the FACT that, "I've seen absolutely no allusion to race or anything that would make me suspect that it played even a tiny part in the move to the D-League for any CBA owner." If you know that I have seen something to the contrary, please let me know. Also, feel free to answer the question.

[SignGuyDino]

Maybe it's as simple as the other CBA teams didn't want to leave and join the D-League.

Maybe it's as simple as wanting more money for their teams than the NBA was willing to pay.

Nah, can't be that simple.

It other news, Armstrong never walked on the moon, Perot carried 26 states in 1992, and Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks and caused Hurricane Katrina.

[Ex CBA Lover]

First of all any of them (the owners who left the CBA) would have to be an idiot to even say anything about race. That would be just plain dumb. But you are right no one but each owner themselves knows why they jumped leagues. I never said that race was an issue what I said was does it seem odd. Now here is an answer for you. If we even can discuss race when it comes to this type of matter. Then it plays a part. Remember you said I don't think??? You didn't say that you know because you can't know? That is why it is so intriguing because of the way things came out it has left the door open for this type of conversation.

[Chuck the Writer]

Is it just me or is something very odd about the teams leaving the CBA.

Why, are they leaving on little Shriner's Parade cars or something?

Or should I say is there something in common the owners that were left hanging have in common.

The commonality I can think of is that the people involved own CBA basketball franchises. Next question?

Well if you didn't see it I will tell you all the owners left in the CBA are minorities. Gary and Michigan owned by African Americans, Yakima owned by Native Americans and of course Albany I'm assuming that Fernandez is some type of Hispanic or Spanish background. Odd or is the true colors of the CBA coming out now.

I think we all smell what you're cooking, and it really stinks, crunchy.

I never said that race was an issue what I said was does it seem odd.

About what? Teams have jumped leagues since the beginning of organized ball. And other teams have stayed put. It has nothing to do with the nationality or surname of the owners, and your implication of same as a reason why these owners did not join the D-League is pretty reprehensible IMHO. Did it ever occur to you that joining the D-League means these teams might have to work with Isiah Thomas once again?

And as for your implications regarding a person's nationality, let me spell this out for you, crunchy. If it weren't for the Yakama Nation, there would have been no Sun Kings last year, no fourth championship banner, no retired number for Anthony Goldwire, nothing. If it weren't for Benito Fernandez and his partnership with James Coyne, there would have been no Albany Patroons, no refurbished Armory, no return to the league of one of the CBA's most storied franchises. And if it weren't for the Timpe family funding the Rockford Lightning out of their own pocket for years - by the way, what nationality do you surmise "Timpe" is, since you seem to be the expert ethnocentrologist on this message board...

If we even can discuss race when it comes to this type of matter. Then it plays a part. Remember you said I don't think??? You didn't say that you know because you can't know? That is why it is so intriguing because of the way things came out it has left the door open for this type of conversation.

You were the one who brought up the topic in the first place, questioning the ethnic background of the team owners.

Trust me. By the time the CBA's 61st season tips off, there will be new owners in new cities - white owners, black owners, Hispanic, Asian, First Nations, whatever - all of whom will have one color in mind. Gold. As in the Gold-colored Jay Ramsdell Trophy, which will be hoisted high for the champion of the league, no matter where their owners' ancestors originated.

[preeths]

Chuck the Writer, good answer. If ownership is good, I don't believe either league cares what color, gender, age, nationality, etc. they are.

[Ex CBA Lover]

With all that wisdom and education you should be able to answer one simple question which by the way was the only question that I posed. Is it strange that all of the owners left in the CBA are minority. Simple question which only requires a simple answer either yes or no. If the answer is no than so be it. If the answer is yes so be it. I never asked for any explanation just posed a simple question that has a simple answer. By you going into all the things that you have gone into you have shown your true your true color. Like I said in an earlier post all I asked was it odd or not. It is a fact that the teams that were left (Rockford not counting because she is trying to sell and has been since the all star break) have minority owners. Here is an easy answer for all you scholars yes it is odd but it means nothing. Now since you have been taken to school class dismissed!!!!!!!!!

[Chuck the Writer]

With all that wisdom and education you should be able to answer one simple question which by the way was the only question that I posed. Is it strange that all of the owners left in the CBA are minority.

What you have asked is a leading question. If one says "Yes," then there is a supposition that the D-League simply cherry-picked teams owned by white Anglo-Saxon Protestant owners. If one says "No," then there is a supposition that we should be more concerned about such a similarity. It's similar to asking someone on the witness stand, "So how long did you stay at the bar before you went home and beat your kids?"

Simple question which only requires a simple answer either yes or no. If the answer is no than so be it. If the answer is yes so be it. I never asked for any explanation just posed a simple question that has a simple answer.

No, what you posed was a leading question. Here's the real reason they took the teams that they took. None of the cities taken have the letter "E" in their city/state nickname (Idaho, Dakota, Sioux Falls, Colorado). Maybe they wanted less "E" in the "D" League. Of course, if they bothered to look at Rockford, Gary, Michigan and Albany and Yakama, none of those teams have an "E" in their city/state identifying nickname either. Should we surmise something from that?

By you going into all the things that you have gone into you have shown your true your true color.

And what is "my true my true color", crunchy?

It is a fact that the teams that were left (Rockford not counting because she is trying to sell and has been since the all star break) have minority owners.

All that means is that the CBA had owners of many different ethnic and regional backgrounds. Three of the eight teams in the CBA had women as owners / general managers (Jane Link of Dakota, Judy Timpe of Rockford, Janelle Scott of Michigan). Should we read something into that as well?

Here is an easy answer for all you scholars yes it is odd but it means nothing. Now since you have been taken to school class dismissed!!!!!!!!!

Dude, if your four rambling posts on this board were considered "school," you definitely need to update your curriculum.

[SignGuyDino]

Yup, the NBA is the most racist organization in America. David Stern should be going to cities in white robes and hoods.

While we're at it...Who has the most technical fouls in the NBA? What color is he? Isn't it the same guy who called Stern a racist?

Is this kid like Rasheed's lovechild or something?

[Ex CBA Lover]

As a matter of fact several NBA Players made the comment that David Stern was racist with some of the new rules mainly the dress code. So once again someone else has shown there lack information. Let's get an understanding. If you are one of those Americans that believes that this country is perfect than God help you. But the problem does not go away by ignoring it. Like Barry Bonds getting hate mail about breaking "The Babe's" Record or the fact that Division one Football has only 4 Minority coaches as of right now. Now for some this is not a problem. Understand there is a problem and it exist rather you want to see it or not even in the CBA so don't be fooled.

[bp]

Your use of the work "odd" when describing the owner who have "been left hanging" is an obivous implication. Now if you want to look at the four left in the CBA in relation to the NBDL lets anlayze it a bit more.

First, Rockford and Gary are both looking for new ownership. Do you think owners who have been lossing money want to spend $300,000 to enter the NBDL? Why would they do that? Those are two unstable franchises right now and the the last thing a seller wants to do right now is commit a new buyer to something they don't want to do. Also, why would the NBDL have any interest in those teams based on their current ownership situations.

Second, take Rockford and Gary out and look at Albany, how does Albany fit geographically right now? It doesn't, at this time. Based on their first year and the money the owners have put into the team and arena they would be candidates if a better geographic fit was in place. i.e. a division with four teams in the Northeast.

That leaves Yakima, and the anlaysis of that situation would only be speculative.

You've floated something with the use of the word odd that while factual the implication is baseless.

The NBA wants minority ownership that much is known, to not include imply that the CBA teams leaving the CBA did so because of culture is not well thought out.

Wow, you paint broad strokes ex-CBA.. dress code is racist...wow....trying to make someone look professional is racist, the players that thought that way show their ignorance. To believe there are no cultural bias in our country is naive but to paint broad strokes is not going to help either.

[Mike4FireAntz34]

As a matter of fact several NBA Players made the comment that David Stern was racist with some of the new rules mainly the dress code. So once again someone else has shown there lack information. Let's get an understanding. If you are one of those Americans that believes that this country is perfect than God help you. But the problem does not go away by ignoring it. Like Barry Bonds getting hate mail about breaking "The Babe's" Record or the fact that Division one Football has only 4 Minority coaches as of right now. Now for some this is not a problem. Understand there is a problem and it exist rather you want to see it or not even in the CBA so don't be fooled.

having a Dress Code is not Racist...it is just formal and proper...do you want all the black players dressing like idiots like they do on the street everyday?....

[Chuck the Writer]

As a matter of fact several NBA Players made the comment that David Stern was racist with some of the new rules mainly the dress code. So once again someone else has shown there lack information.

Puh-leeze. The CBA has had an off-the-field dress code since the 1999-2000 season. Isiah Thomas instituted it, and the league continues to have such a code in place. Heaven forbid the players dress professionally, rather than as models for the latest Mitchell & Ness retro throwback gear. You're comparing apples to oranges again; the dress code has nothing to do with racism and has everything to do with professionality. The New York Yankees and the Cincinnati Reds require their players to shave any facial hair, does that make them racist too? Although it was a shock to see that Jeff Reardon DOES have a chin under all those whiskers... And it's "shown THEIR lack OF information," crunchy. Use the correct homonym.

Let's get an understanding.

Can we "get" them at Wal-Mart or do I have to drive to Costco? ;-)

If you are one of those Americans that believes that this country is perfect than God help you.

If this were a perfect country, the CBA would have acquired teams from the D-League, Isiah Thomas would never have bought the CBA in the first place, and Albany would have won the CBA championship. Next...

But the problem does not go away by ignoring it. Like Barry Bonds getting hate mail about breaking "The Babe's" Record

Another logical fallacy. Barry Bonds is getting hate mail because of the supposition that he cheated by using performance enhancing drugs to knock most of his homers over the last few years into McCovey Cove. And before you start griping about why Barry Bonds is being singled out because he's black... the steroid stench has tainted Mark McGwire (white), Sammy Sosa (black-hispanic), Rafael Palmeiro (hispanic), and has taken the life of Ken Caminiti (white). Let's put it this way - and I can't believe I'm discussing this in a basketball forum. Ken Griffey, Jr. is now 12th all time on the home run list. Nobody EVER would accuse Griffey of steroid abuse. And for the longest time before he succumbed to several injuries, people were actively rooting for him to break Hank Aaron's record. There are still some people out there who would love to see Griffey at least reach 600 homers if his body will hold out.

And before you start throwing out more racial suppositions regarding the CBA, let me point something out for you, crunchy. In the CBA's first season of existence, back when it was the Eastern Professional Basketball League of 1946-47, the Hazleton Mountaineers became the league's first integrated squad, as Bill Brown, Zack Clayton and Johnny Isaacs - the first two veterans of the old New York Rens, the third a former player with the Washington Bears - all suited up at one time or another in the league. This was FOUR YEARS before the NBA ever allowed a black player on the court. This was also a season before Jackie Robinson broke baseball's color barrier.

or the fact that Division one Football has only 4 Minority coaches as of right now.

Again, apples to oranges. We're not talking about Div I football. We're talking about minor league basketball.

Now for some this is not a problem. Understand there is a problem and it exist rather you want to see it or not even in the CBA so don't be fooled.

Okay, as far as you're concerned there is a problem. Sure there's a problem. But there's a bigger problem in suggesting that the NBA only took four lily-white ownership groups rather than teams with multicultural ownerships. I'm sure the D-League would love to play games in Muskegon in front of 500 fans on a floor over an ice surface, where players slip and sldie more than curling rocks across the hog line. The Genesis Convention Center in Gary isn't exactly in downtown Beirut, but it's a pretty dangerous area if you don't know where you're going, am I right on this Ken? Rockford can't get weekend dates at the MetroCentre, Albany can pack the Armory but there is virtually no off-street parking, and Yakama almost collapsed without the support of the Native American tribes.

Let's call it what it really is. The NBA cherry-picked the four most stable franchises in the CBA (well, three stable and an expansion squad), in David Stern's attempt to kill off the CBA by removing its most fertile franchises.

But see, David Stern doesn't understand something about the CBA that true fans do. The CBA can't be killed. It has survived everything thrown at it - 30 years as a bus league in the Northeast. It survived being raped and pillaged for its top talent by the original ABA. It survived a 1974-75 season with only four franchises. It survived overexpansion in the 1990's. It survived Isiah Thomas owning the league. It survived all this and more. What makes you think that ten years down the line those NBDL teams won't want to jump to a more successful CBA?

Anyways, I'm tired of this ongoing flame war. You're entitled to your opinion, crunchy. No matter how much flame-baiting you're hoping to accomplish.

[bectond]

I have to admit I also believed the selection process was strange when I first read which teams were joining the NBA. But after looking at it in-depth I simple believe the teams that could afford to join the D-league left and those that could not afford it, did not. Maybe you can say that the owners that left did not show enough support for the weaker clubs by demanding an all or nothing type of buy-out. The albany owner has stated that for was not asked by the NBA to join(he also stated that leaving made "no sense"). While Yakama has turned down the NBA's offer. I do believe that the ex-cba owners left the current cba owners hanging and some may be classless (Dakota did hired Bless) so i'm not going to slam dude for his take, it and all the following responses have provided me with some well needed comic relief.
Great job to all!!!!!!!

[rams80]

As a matter of fact several NBA Players made the comment that David Stern was racist with some of the new rules mainly the dress code. So once again someone else has shown there lack information. Let's get an understanding. If you are one of those Americans that believes that this country is perfect than God help you. But the problem does not go away by ignoring it. Like Barry Bonds getting hate mail about breaking "The Babe's" Record or the fact that Division one Football has only 4 Minority coaches as of right now. Now for some this is not a problem. Understand there is a problem and it exist rather you want to see it or not even in the CBA so don't be fooled.

So the NBA's racist....Explain to me, then, the racial makeup of the Bobcats' ownership group (the newest expansion team). Explain to me how Isaiah Thomas is still gainfully employed in this league. The dress code is all about looking professional, and maybe trying to expand the NBA's target audience to something besides the hip hop demographic. The hate mail for Barry stems more from the fact that he did take steroids (it may never be proven, but he did), and is doesn't have that much of a likable personality to begin with. College football, yes this is a problem, but short of completely destroying the "good ol' boys" network, I don't know how to fix it.

As for the CBA...Rockford, Gary, and Michigan are currently less than stable, Albany is geographically isolated from the D-League, and stands to be even more isolated if they completely pull out of the East Coast as rumored, and while the Yakama nation saved the team for this season, I can only conjecture that the D-League questions whether they plan to operate the team for the long term.

[preeths]

Some very good posts on the situation. Some posters have easily answered the question of why the four former CBA teams left and why five didn't. It appears that rams80, bectond, Chuck the Writer, and I imagine most everyone else, understood the question I posed in this thread's second post and had no trouble finding the answer.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

...The Genesis Convention Center in Gary isn't exactly in downtown Beirut, but it's a pretty dangerous area if you don't know where you're going, am I right on this Ken?

Hey! How did you know I was lurking around?

Hmmmmm. I think it's more dangerous if you make the wrong turn going to White Sox Park (U.S. Cellular Field) in Chicago. It's all about perceptions (and your ability to avoid low-income housing projects) in Gary though. The area around the Genesis Center and U.S. Steel Yard ballpark is quite safe. Not too many people live around there for one reason. A police "spy cam" is mounted strategically enough to cover BOTH venues for another reason.

The reason the murder rate is so high in Gary is because of the "vibrant" drug trade. Civilians are rather safe. Example: I walk and ride my bike all over downtown Gary, day or night without incident. It's all about perceptions.

Attendance is down because practically no marketing was done in 2004-2005, then the 2005-2006 marketing campaign was last minute. The Steelheads are stable...for now.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

having a Dress Code is not Racist...it is just formal and proper...do you want all the black players dressing like idiots like they do on the street everyday?....

...and what's wrong with dressing like an idiot everyday? National fashion trends have started that way.

[minorleagueguru2]

Why, are they leaving on little Shriner's Parade cars or something?



The commonality I can think of is that the people involved own CBA basketball franchises. Next question?



I think we all smell what you're cooking, and it really stinks, crunchy.



About what? Teams have jumped leagues since the beginning of organized ball. And other teams have stayed put. It has nothing to do with the nationality or surname of the owners, and your implication of same as a reason why these owners did not join the D-League is pretty reprehensible IMHO. Did it ever occur to you that joining the D-League means these teams might have to work with Isiah Thomas once again?

And as for your implications regarding a person's nationality, let me spell this out for you, crunchy. If it weren't for the Yakama Nation, there would have been no Sun Kings last year, no fourth championship banner, no retired number for Anthony Goldwire, nothing. If it weren't for Benito Fernandez and his partnership with James Coyne, there would have been no Albany Patroons, no refurbished Armory, no return to the league of one of the CBA's most storied franchises. And if it weren't for the Timpe family funding the Rockford Lightning out of their own pocket for years - by the way, what nationality do you surmise "Timpe" is, since you seem to be the expert ethnocentrologist on this message board...



You were the one who brought up the topic in the first place, questioning the ethnic background of the team owners.

Trust me. By the time the CBA's 61st season tips off, there will be new owners in new cities - white owners, black owners, Hispanic, Asian, First Nations, whatever - all of whom will have one color in mind. Gold. As in the Gold-colored Jay Ramsdell Trophy, which will be hoisted high for the champion of the league, no matter where their owners' ancestors originated.


I'm not going to play the race card because I don't feel it has any relevance. But, I do find it odd that the CBA teams left to join a more expensive league. This is especially true for that Colorado expansion team.

Do you agree?

Also, Chuck, check your PM box.

[panchess]

..let's just hope that there is a next season at this point.

The D-League chasers want a more stable league and a direct NBA affiliation. Given the structure of the D-League, I am not sure if it is going to work out for them. The D-League has had its share of turnover in its five years, and it looks like there will be subtraction as welll as addition in that league this off-season too.

While the D-League pays the salaries, and you will get the occassional draft choice working on his skills, the overall costs are higher.

If the CBA can tweak its business model to reduce costs a bit and recruit new teams, it may well survive just fine.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Sort of off on a tangent here, but...

The ABA constantly brags about how diversified its ownership group is - Latinos, black, white, Asian, male, female, etc.

Sometimes, it isn't the different colors of paint you use, but the picture you create that is the real issue.

[BreakersFan]

Can anyone tell me where I can get a "race" card, just in case I'd like to play it?

Like the USBL, the CBA seems to continually reinvent itself and survive. I don't think we need to worry about the CBA. And if the expanded d-league works, then that might be the best thing for all of the minor leagues. More logical organization and stablity are good things things for all of us, whether CBA, USBL, or d-League. Maybe the USBL can even become a more formal of "extended" season for D-League and CBA players.

If the ABA would finally go away, maybe the future is brighter for all of us....