Ghostriders cease operations

[PIONEERSFAN101]

http://citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060327/NEWS01/60327028/1119

Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later, and it turned out to be sooner.

[exit322]

My deepest sympathies to the fans in Asheville, though I think this doesn't surprise any of them.

[SignGuyDino]

From the AIFL message board, a local newspaper reporter wants all players who feel shafted to contact him.

My name is Jason McGill and I'm a reporter with the Asheville Citizen-Times. I'd like to talk to you. If you, or any other Ghostriders players read this, please call me at (828) 232-5832.

[Geoff]

This not only hurts the AIFL, this hurts ALL minor league sports that would consider using the ACC, at least until they fix it ... if they ever do. The ACC has lost these tenants in the past two years: Asheville Altitude (NBDL), Asheville Aces (SPHL), and the Carolina Ghostriders (AIFL). Thus losing a team in all the sports that would consider their arena a home.

[ChampionOfSteel]

This not only hurts the AIFL, this hurts ALL minor league sports that would consider using the ACC, at least until they fix it ... if they ever do. The ACC has lost these tenants in the past two years: Asheville Altitude (NBDL), Asheville Aces (SPHL), and the Carolina Ghostriders (AIFL). Thus losing a team in all the sports that would consider their arena a home.

What is broke? You said "until they fix it".

How so? I'm not following you.

How does AIFL league mismanagement affect Class A baseball, AF2, NFL Europe, ECHL, or the AHL considering a location in Asheville?

The AIFL didn't have their ducks lined up at the league office level. It's every team for themself.

A smart sports fan will look at league reputation and the cast of characters involved for all teams in the league/and its league office before even considering buying season tickets. They won't be looking at just the local team they will be supporting. They will be looking for evidence for upfront capital required for each team to be admitted into a league.

If or when an AFL/AF2 team comes to life in that town, the locals considering season tickets won't have to worry about the team having enough cash to play-out their season even with horrific attendance because AF2 has people in charge that have project management and financial/accounting business skills at the league office requiring a test to be passed by its membered teams -- see the shutdown of the Cincinnati Swarm by the AF2 in the offseason.

Geoff,

I think you included bush league operations in your minor league definition. Hopefully that was an accident.

Clearly the AIFL is bush league and not minor league.

Calling AIFL minor league is an insult to Class A baseball, and AF2, etc.

-ChampionOfSteel-

[Minor League Man]

Official announcement was released.
The 'Riders are inactive, and a traveling team has been created:

The...Ghostchasers!
STUPID STUPID STUPID NAME!

[daytonadan]

That means you're a bush basher. More Democrats. Just what I need.

Listen, do you think I enjoyed writing that statement?

But some of the criticism is just, and we will take our lumps. And hopefully, learn our lessons, correct the problems and become stronger.

I do take some offense, however, in the general statement that the entire league bush. I work with all the teams on a daily basis and have found a dedication to getting this thing. My team's three road games have been to organizations who have put on a great presentation. And those teams that are lacking in the daily execution of operations, and yes, that is the case sometimes, I'm seeing a sincere effort to improve. I happen to fortunate to be employed full-time for an organization that allows to practice this trade and has taken care of me and my family -- even though they wouldn't splurge a for a pacemaker that lets me pick up Howard Stern.

Now if your excuse me, I'm off to play Super Mario Baseball with my son.

[PIONEERSFAN101]

The ACC is a dump. Paint peeling, bad lighting,etc,etc...There was an article a ways back about it.

[Geoff]

What is broke? You said "until they fix it".

How so? I'm not following you.

How does AIFL league mismanagement affect Class A baseball, AF2, NFL Europe, ECHL, or the AHL considering a location in Asheville?

The AIFL didn't have their ducks lined up at the league office level. It's every team for themself.

A smart sports fan will look at league reputation and the cast of characters involved for all teams in the league/and its league office before even considering buying season tickets. They won't be looking at just the local team they will be supporting. They will be looking for evidence for upfront capital required for each team to be admitted into a league.

If or when an AFL/AF2 team comes to life in that town, the locals considering season tickets won't have to worry about the team having enough cash to play-out their season even with horrific attendance because AF2 has people in charge that have project management and financial/accounting business skills at the league office requiring a test to be passed by its membered teams -- see the shutdown of the Cincinnati Swarm by the AF2 in the offseason.

Geoff,

I think you included bush league operations in your minor league definition. Hopefully that was an accident.

Clearly the AIFL is bush league and not minor league.

Calling AIFL minor league is an insult to Class A baseball, and AF2, etc.

-ChampionOfSteel-

The ACC is old and the seating has horrible sight lines, etc. Ask SignGuyDino. I said said minor league teams considering the ACC (Asheville Civic Center). I doubt baseball would be played there. I don't see the af2 strolling in anytime soon. NFL Europe is just that, Europe. Unless they went back to the WLAF type league, Asheville wont get a team and if they do, it wont be in the ACC. Like the af2, I don't see the AHL or the ECHL coming into Asheville.

If the af2 did put a team in Asheville, it is still possible that the owner could horribly mismanage the team so badly that the league can't afford to take them over for the rest of the season. If it's possible to score three times in 12 seconds in Arena ball, that most definitely can happen.

I'm not saying the league will shy away, I'm saying the city will scrutinize every detail about a team more closely than they do now.

[ChampionOfSteel]

But some of the criticism is just, and we will take our lumps. And hopefully, learn our lessons, correct the problems and become stronger.

I do take some offense, however, in the general statement that the entire league bush. I work with all the teams on a daily basis and have found a dedication to getting this thing. My team's three road games have been to organizations who have put on a great presentation. And those teams that are lacking in the daily execution of operations, and yes, that is the case sometimes, I'm seeing a sincere effort to improve. I happen to fortunate to be employed full-time for an organization that allows to practice this trade and has taken care of me and my family -- even though they wouldn't splurge a for a pacemaker that lets me pick up Howard Stern.


You didn't have the infrastructure in place to detect the Ghostrider situation until it was painfully obvious on opening night. This team should have been excluded from the schedule. That is a key aspect in my definition of bush league. I'm glad all of the other teams had their ducks lined up.

The point is AF2/ECHL/Class A baseball/WLAF never seems to have this problem. Don't give me the line of bull "but they fold teams in the offseason". That is not the same as folding teams during the season. The infrastructure is in place to get everyone thru any one season. Bush leagues fold teams during the season. If the AIFL fits my definition of bush league, I'm sorry. The fact is your league's management doesn't have the knowledge and initiative to copy the AF2 format of business. The lack of initiative comes respectfully from your "hopefully learn our lessons" comment. Hopefully? That tells me your league's top leaders aren't seeking wise counsel to copy AF2 business ways. Because they believe this type of things works on chance? Please prove me wrong.

I was hoping AIFL was at least UIF in its operation.

I didn't follow you on your Howard Stern/pacemaker comment. I don't watch/listen to Howard Stern. My political views are mostly conservative like Bill O'Reilly.

My comments were not intended to be personal. The time to worry about fan support is when complaints no longer exist. That is the time when they no longer care.

[Jamie]

By your definition, UIF is "bush" too... at least last season.

[ChampionOfSteel]

By your definition, UIF is "bush" too... at least last season.

You are correct!

The cutoff date for detecting risky teams should have been moved back and before the schedule was created, and not 3 days before kickoff.

Nice catch, Jamie.

[fwp]

This is an unfortunate situation for all of indoor football. Unfortunately, as in other cases, it makes the bad outshine all the good going on in other cities throughout all of the leagues at this level.

The use of af2 as a shining example is somewhat laughable, in my opinion.

The folding of the Lincoln Lightning franchise was just a few weeks before the season was set to start, well after the schedule was released and despite assurances that the af2 league had money upfront to ensure that the af2 team had a commitment of at least 3 years to catch on in Lincoln.

af2 not only folded the Lightning, taking the name, but didn't reimburse season ticket monies or sponsorship monies that were collected. They may be the lowliest of leagues because of they way they insist on portraying themselves as better than others. In reality, there's good and bad in all of the leagues at this level.

Best of luck, Dan! If you didn't have the bad days, you wouldn't have near the appreciation of the good ones!

[ChampionOfSteel]

This is an unfortunate situation for all of indoor football. Unfortunately, as in other cases, it makes the bad outshine all the good going on in other cities throughout all of the leagues at this level.

The use of af2 as a shining example is somewhat laughable, in my opinion.

The folding of the Lincoln Lightning franchise was just a few weeks before the season was set to start, well after the schedule was released and despite assurances that the af2 league had money upfront to ensure that the af2 team had a commitment of at least 3 years to catch on in Lincoln.

af2 not only folded the Lightning, taking the name, but didn't reimburse season ticket monies or sponsorship monies that were collected. They may be the lowliest of leagues because of they way they insist on portraying themselves as better than others. In reality, there's good and bad in all of the leagues at this level.

Best of luck, Dan! If you didn't have the bad days, you wouldn't have near the appreciation of the good ones!

I'm going to research your comments. If you already have an online newspaper source for those comments it would be great if you could post those links for your assertions. I want to know the nitty gritty of this especially if it's AF2.

[fwp]

I'm going to research your comments. If you already have an online newspaper source for those comments it would be great if you could post those links for your assertions. I want to know the nitty gritty of this especially if it's AF2.

My apologies, but I have no links, don't even know if any exist at this time. That's been about 4 or 5 years ago, now? It happened all around me, I lived it as it happened, that's my source, unfortunately.

To be quite frank, I can't say that I have any links to any of the things going on with the Capitols right at this very moment either, and it's happening.

Sorry that I can't be of any more help than that.

[ChampionOfSteel]

My apologies, but I have no links, don't even know if any exist at this time. That's been about 4 or 5 years ago, now? It happened all around me, I lived it as it happened, that's my source, unfortunately.

To be quite frank, I can't say that I have any links to any of the things going on with the Capitols right at this very moment either, and it's happening.

Sorry that I can't be of any more help than that.

Thanks for your honesty. As a sports management enthusiast/historian I got something in the fire to research. I want to believe the AF2 wasn't as thorough back then and they got their act together now on how to operate in a conservative manner.

When everyone is required high standards to exist, everyone in the league wins. The drawback is you'll have fewer teams in your league. In my opinion, it is far better (more fun) to follow a league that has all of its teams with their ducks lined up.

[preeths]

fwp, I can't agree with your comments re: Lincoln and af2 at all. Ownership in Lincoln pulled up stakes on the Lightning, leaving af2 scrambling to find another owner for the team. When one couldn't be found, the Lightning were excluded from the schedule and the league because it was early enough to do so. The league believed it had a commitment from the owner, and he decided to get out early. af2 may have been naive, but they caught it early enough to avoid cancelling games inseason. You also have to remember that this was af2's worst situation. Looked at as a whole, af2 has done extremely well with franchise stability. Has the league ever cancelled a game?

As part of OPE's deal with the IFL, af2 owned all the former IFL names and logos, including Lincoln's. The owner gave up rights to them when he agreed to the deal. I don't believe af2 collected the season ticket or sponsorship money (that's generally a team function), so they shouldn't have to pay it out. It was the responsiblity of those who took the money, presumably Lightning management, to issue refunds. Yes, there is good and bad in all leagues, but it DOES NOT balance out with some of the other leagues that repeatedly have the same (much worse) problems.

[ChampionOfSteel]

The problem is there's no way I can make plans to see AIFL/NIFL football without telling family/friends the game may be in jeopardy.

I can go to a Dayton Dragons game and know the game will be played...unless of course it rains. I can look at the schedule and make plans in advance. I can't do that with the NIFL/AIFL and UHL hockey. I might do that with the UIF. I would definitely do that with AF2. I would do it for ECHL hockey, too.

Whether you are a fan of sports or not, people do not want to make conditional plans and fork out money for something that historically won't be cheerfully refunded if the said event doesn't occur. Because you can't provide that assurance, few people are interested in buying season tickets. When few buy season tickets you might as well buy walkup tickets because they'll be plenty of seats anyway. See the vicious cycle?

If you want the community to make plans to come to your future event you must show proof you have the means to deliver if you want them to buy tickets beforehand. Prove it to the local press. Right now fans won't go to your games based on the league name. Don't blame it on anything other than your lack of infrastructure to copy those who do it right: AF2, WLAF, ECHL, etc.

Point: If you aren't inherently rich to create the league-wide infrastructure to succeed, don't bother starting a league. Leave that to the wealthy with project management and accounting/budgeting skills.

[fwp]

fwp, I can't agree with your comments re: Lincoln and af2 at all. Ownership in Lincoln pulled up stakes on the Lightning, leaving af2 scrambling to find another owner for the team. When one couldn't be found, the Lightning were excluded from the schedule and the league because it was early enough to do so. The league believed it had a commitment from the owner, and he decided to get out early. af2 may have been naive, but they caught it early enough to avoid cancelling games inseason. You also have to remember that this was af2's worst situation. Looked at as a whole, af2 has done extremely well with franchise stability. Has the league ever cancelled a game?

As part of OPE's deal with the IFL, af2 owned all the former IFL names and logos, including Lincoln's. The owner gave up rights to them when he agreed to the deal. I don't believe af2 collected the season ticket or sponsorship money (that's generally a team function), so they shouldn't have to pay it out. It was the responsiblity of those who took the money, presumably Lightning management, to issue refunds. Yes, there is good and bad in all leagues, but it DOES NOT balance out with some of the other leagues that repeatedly have the same (much worse) problems.

I know what you're saying, Paul, and I certainly don't disagree with everything you say. But, it sounds like the af2 whitewashed the story just a tad to make themselves look better than they were in that situation.

I certainly also hold it against the owners, I still think they made the wrong choice when they had the option of what league to go to, and didn't recognize the tremendous costs associated with af2, costs that certainly weren't going down. In no way am I intending on seeming like I'm giving them any slack for how things turned out. I still play basketball with one of the owners on occasion, but we stay away from talk about that situation.

But.......that being said, since it's been a few years names escape me, and it was a "league" representative that came in and made the bold statement that enough money had been put down to ensure that the team would play for 3 years to see if the game would grow in Lincoln. That encouraged people to believe that it was safe to purchase season tickets and the such.......heck, there were even multiple year packages available.

Who pocketed what money, or the percentages, I certainly don't know, but I know who suffered.

Our team was just a few weeks from making it's first road trip of the season, a game in Hawaii that Coach Jefferson and the team looked forward to visiting.

Again, I certainly don't absolve the Lightning owners, but the af2 is by no means clean.

[SHLBYSALEN]

it looks like asheville is only the beginning. Raleigh may very well be next and soon. Also a couple of others not in the best situations. Haines sold a product he wasnt ready to support. Oh well boyds check cleared.

[tony-o]

Psst...don't tell anyone but here is a sneak peek at the new Ghostchasers logo!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/hdst-24/ghostchasers.jpg

So Andrew Haines has replaced a failed franchise with a road team. This sounds all too familiar...

[preeths]

I had a little inside information on the Lincoln situation from a few years ago, and I know af2 was blindsided by Lincoln's withdrawal and that the surprise was intended so the league wouldn't have a chance to salvage the market that year. The decision was made to go a different direction, and we can look at the last few years of Lincoln indoor football to see if a mistake was made or not. I agree that af2 shouldn't have made the three-year statement, but if that was their biggest mistake, I think most fans will forgive them in light of what's happened outside af2 in Lincoln since.

[nksports]

Psst...don't tell anyone but here is a sneak peek at the new Ghostcahsers logo!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/hdst-24/ghostchasers.jpg

So Andrew Haines has replaced a failed franchise with a road team. This sounds all too familiar...

Considering how many teams got sued for not paying licencing fees on the music they used last year, I can't imagine them being able to get the licencing from Hannah-Barbara (a Time-Warner property last I heard).

[fwp]

I had a little inside information on the Lincoln situation from a few years ago, and I know af2 was blindsided by Lincoln's withdrawal and that the surprise was intended so the league wouldn't have a chance to salvage the market that year. The decision was made to go a different direction, and we can look at the last few years of Lincoln indoor football to see if a mistake was made or not. I agree that af2 shouldn't have made the three-year statement, but if that was their biggest mistake, I think most fans will forgive them in light of what's happened outside af2 in Lincoln since.


Respectfully, I'll have to continue to disagree with you from what I know.

In my opinion, they are the best at building straw man stories, that's for sure.

No, I wouldn't go to another af2 game again. I have no respect for anyone involved in that league. The game isn't as interesting and their claims of greatness are dishonest.

The NIFL game could be so much better......the game itself is. Lincoln was plagued by poor decisions, unfortunately many of them seemed to be spurred from the top of the league. That being said, there are many great owners and players in the league and I still wish them the best. The changes that need to be made in the NIFL are doable, something has to happen eventually.

That's my opinion from what I know, but it's not worth really pursuing, because like I said, I'll never go to an af2 game again, not even if they were playing next door.

[ChampionOfSteel]

Psst...don't tell anyone but here is a sneak peek at the new Ghostcahsers logo!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/hdst-24/ghostchasers.jpg

So Andrew Haines has replaced a failed franchise with a road team. This sounds all too familiar...

Good grief! Did you make that logo? Is this a joke?

Are the AIFL organizers that ignorant? They are begging for a lawsuit. We have a lot of well-meaning (hopefully well-meaning) AIFL organizers that are in over their heads in the most crucial categories they need to be sharp?

Did they get whoever owns the latest rights to Scooby Doo permission in writing to do that? I've seen semi-pro teams duplicate NFL logos and team colors and get away with it, probably because the NFL was flattered and no money was profited from the situation. It wasn't probably feasible for the NFL to remind them or do one of those cease and desist things.

These AIFL guys are flirting with disaster with that ghostchaser logo.

Yes, you do have to pay royalties for playing music during the game.

[AIFLFan]

Good grief! Did you make that logo? Is this a joke?

Are the AIFL organizers that ignorant? They are begging for a lawsuit. We have a lot of well-meaning AIFL organizers that are in over their heads in the most crucial categories they need to be sharp?

Did they get whoever owns the latest rights to Scooby Doo permission in writing to do that? I've seen semi-pro teams duplicate NFL logos and team colors and get away with it, probably because the NFL was flattered and no money was profited from the situation. It wasn't feasible for the NFL to remind them or do one of those cease and desist things. These AIFL guys are flirting with disaster.

Yes, you do have to pay royalties for playing music during the game.

Its obviously a joke, even though the AIFL decided to mimick the name of the GhostRiders, and the colors, still flirting with disaster.

[fwp]

I had a little inside information on the Lincoln situation from a few years ago, and I know af2 was blindsided by Lincoln's withdrawal and that the surprise was intended so the league wouldn't have a chance to salvage the market that year. The decision was made to go a different direction, and we can look at the last few years of Lincoln indoor football to see if a mistake was made or not. I agree that af2 shouldn't have made the three-year statement, but if that was their biggest mistake, I think most fans will forgive them in light of what's happened outside af2 in Lincoln since.


I do want to add, that I totally respect what you do to give these games coverage, and no one can question your connections or knowledge. I'm a fan that really appreciates all that you do, this is a place I stop numerous times each day. Along with Jerry, you probably share in the responsibility for my addiction, lol.

That being said, I really don't think the Lightning owners purposely blindsided the af2 group. Normally I'm not one that just reads rumors and believes them, I try to check things out.

While I wasn't a real fan of the af2 venture, even though I went to all the games, if that ownership group was guilty of anything in that respect, it was from believing that they could still make things work and holding on too long trying to figure out a way. I do know that the majority owner lost his company not that long after the team folded, his involvement with Weaver's, a long standing local company was soon over.

I also personally know of other local businessmen that were approached about af2 ownership that weren't interested. I guess we'll see what happens next, if anything. Lincoln should be one of the premier indoor football cities in the country, but at this point, people would definitely need to see that someone is making a serious effort.

Again, my indoor football time may be about over, so I really shouldn't be rambling on, but I've enjoyed the years following not only our local teams, but thanks to people like you, I've been able to follow teams all over the country. It may be hard to break my habit, lol.

Best of luck to all teams across all the leagues, and all the people directly and indirectly involved with these teams, as well. It's easy to get wrapped up in the things going wrong, sometimes it's worth it just to step back and see the things to be thankful for.

Despite what you read, there are a lot of good people involved!

[ChampionOfSteel]

I do know that the majority owner lost his company not that long after the team folded, his involvement with Weaver's, a long standing local company was soon over.

I also personally know of other local businessmen that were approached about af2 ownership that weren't interested. I guess we'll see what happens next, if anything. Lincoln should be one of the premier indoor football cities in the country, but at this point, people would definitely need to see that someone is making a serious effort.

Sports team ownership is not for the faint of heart. Sports teams lose money under virtually all scenarios. Some folks will lose their personal assets doing this activity -- house/car/personal bank account emptied, etc.

If you are expecting to earn a living owning a sports team you have been misled. Quite the opposite. Treat it as an expensive hobby...which means only the extremely wealthly should be doing this.

[preeths]

I will say that the Lightning ownership was put in a precarious position when OPE bought out the IFL. They either had to join af2 or go away. Having plunked down a lot of money for the team, they continued. They chose to join af2, and they declared their excitement as much as af2 did, so you can't fault af2 alone for being too optimistic. Perhaps the owner's financial situation changed because of his main business's troubles, a situation which would have taken af2 by surprise as well.

Really, I don't think we're arguing facts here, just our interpretations of them. You confirm that af2 approached others to try to save the franchise, but couldn't get it done. Part of that is because of what I mentioned. af2 was told about the Lightning's intentions so late in the game in part to keep the league out of the market and pave the way for the Capitols. Some saw that as the best way to keep the game alive in Lincoln, but we now have the benefit of history to review, and we can clearly see it didn't work out. Now, maybe a continued af2 presence wouldn't have worked either, but we'll never know.

[exit322]

I'd guess Pershing was just too small for the af2 to ever really work out there. Some places just aren't made for the af2 price structure, good or bad.

[rams80]

Good grief! Did you make that logo? Is this a joke?

Are the AIFL organizers that ignorant? They are begging for a lawsuit. We have a lot of well-meaning (hopefully well-meaning) AIFL organizers that are in over their heads in the most crucial categories they need to be sharp?

Did they get whoever owns the latest rights to Scooby Doo permission in writing to do that? I've seen semi-pro teams duplicate NFL logos and team colors and get away with it, probably because the NFL was flattered and no money was profited from the situation. It wasn't probably feasible for the NFL to remind them or do one of those cease and desist things.

These AIFL guys are flirting with disaster with that ghostchaser logo.

Yes, you do have to pay royalties for playing music during the game.

Looks like somebody's sarcasm detector is broke again.
It's made up, probably with photoshop, as a joke.

[ChampionOfSteel]

I'd guess Pershing was just too small for the af2 to ever really work out there. Some places just aren't made for the af2 price structure, good or bad.

That AF2 price structure you speak of is probably what assures all of the teams make it thru the year.

[tony-o]

Looks like somebody's sarcasm detector is broke again.
It's made up, probably with photoshop, as a joke.
Yep, I made it in MS Paint. That was the first thing I thought of when I heard of the Ghostchasers. A Scooby Doo knockoff logo that is similar to the Ghostriders logo and crapishly put together.

[ChampionOfSteel]

You could also do one having a picture of that one Great Britain guy on the Discovery/Travel Channel that walks around in "haunted" houses with green light shined on him and his friends, or his blonde haired lady sidekick.

Can't remember if they are from Great Britain or Australia.

[exit322]

That AF2 price structure you speak of is probably what assures all of the teams make it thru the year.


It's also what has assured a lot of those teams from not coming back for a second go-around. I think your 'better due diligence' idea is a lot more feasible than charging exorbitant prices. It's something the af2 has done better, and now the UIF appears to have done better...but it's something everyone needs to do better.

[daytonadan]

"I didn't follow you on your Howard Stern/pacemaker comment. I don't watch/listen to Howard Stern. My political views are mostly conservative like Bill O'Reilly."

It's amazing that Bill O'Reilly can sit down since the sun rises and sets in his .... I loathe Fox News Channel and that Nancy Grace thing on CNN.

I get my news from the Daily Show and the Colbert Report, anyhow.

To explain the pacemaker comment, they install a device in me that makes me set airport alarms, but does it give me free nights and weekends and pick up satellite radio for free? Nooo .....

By the way, great game in Daytona Beach tonight ... overtime Thunder victory ... www.dbthunder.net

[exit322]

2475 - pretty good crowd for a Thursday night, too.

[Pounder]

Due diligence means hiring forensic accountants and private investigators with money you're probably not willing to spend. Of course, leagues with big fat national network contracts can afford such things. If only the NHL were one of them...

Exit's probably right that it causes some instability in af2, but I'm here to say that it also creates a higher bar than what NIFL and AIFL provide, without being an undue financial burden to the league.