The official D-League/CBA Merger Speculation Thread

[SignGuyDino]

Well, I have seen two articles now talking a potential (FINALLY!) merger between the D-League and the CBA.

Discuss.

[panchess]

..as long as Albany is part of it. Given its location near several NBA franchises, it is a natural for a new minor league. I assume some of the momentum will be to have the minor league teams closer to the NBA franchises, like in other sports.

[Mike4FireAntz34]

post a link to the two articles you are talking about.

[SignGuyDino]

Here's one:

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060322/SPORTS0302/603220309/1002/SPORTS

Here's another, although most of the time it doesn't work:

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2006/03/22/news/sports/local/111918.txt

[panchess]

I know that Rockford (due to loss of ownership) and Michigan are the weak links in the CBA. I have heard Fayetteville, NC is that way in the NBDL, but don't know as I don't really follow that league.

I am guessing any merger will bring the six solid CBA teams in, along with six or so NBDL teams, with the two expansion teams and perhaps one or two ABA teams like Rochester, Florida and perhaps Buffalo, to create a single 16-team league with much better proximity to NBA franchises.

[Minor League Man]

My idea for the NCBADL:
NORTHEAST DIVISION:
Albany Patroons
Atlantic City (they deserve a team)
Buffalo Rapids
Hershey (I hope so)
Rochester Razorsharks
SOUTHEAST DIVISION:
Charleston (I hope so)
Fayetteville Patriots
Florida Pitbulls
Fort Myers Flame
Roanoke Dazzle
MID-SOUTH DIVISION:
Arkansas Rimrockers
Austin Toros
Fort Worth Flyers
Laredo/Rio Grande Valley
Tulsa 66ers
CENTRAL DIVISION:
Gary Steelheads
Green Bay (they deserve a team)
Hoffman Estates (they should get one)
Michigan Mayhem
Rockford Lightning
NORTHWEST DIVISION
Colorado 14ers
Dakota Wizards
Idaho Stampede
Sioux Falls Skyforce
Yakama Sunkings
PACIFIC DIVISION
Albuquerque T-Birds
Arizona Rhinos (they tried to get into the ABA last year)
Bakersfield Jam
San Diego (hello)
San Jose Skyrockets

[Mike4FireAntz34]

My idea for the NCBADL:
NORTHEAST DIVISION:
Albany Patroons
Atlantic City (they deserve a team)
Buffalo Rapids
Hershey (I hope so)
Rochester Razorsharks
SOUTHEAST DIVISION:
Charleston (I hope so)
Fayetteville Patriots
Florida Pitbulls
Fort Myers Flame
Roanoke Dazzle
MID-SOUTH DIVISION:
Arkansas Rimrockers
Austin Toros
Fort Worth Flyers
Laredo/Rio Grande Valley
Tulsa 66ers
CENTRAL DIVISION:
Gary Steelheads
Green Bay (they deserve a team)
Hoffman Estates (they should get one)
Michigan Mayhem
Rockford Lightning
NORTHWEST DIVISION
Colorado 14ers
Dakota Wizards
Idaho Stampede
Sioux Falls Skyforce
Yakama Sunkings
PACIFIC DIVISION
Albuquerque T-Birds
Arizona Rhinos (they tried to get into the ABA last year)
Bakersfield Jam
San Diego (hello)
San Jose Skyrockets

Good list...hopefully we will have this many teams in the NBDL next year.

[Minor League Man]

Hey, a farm team for every NBA team!
Sounds good to me!

[Mike4FireAntz34]

I would really want to see every team get 1 D-League team...in the Future!

[SignGuyDino]

I would like to see an D-League team for every NBA team, but see why they can't right now.

The Buffalo team must be called the Braves. If there is one.

I agree that unfortunately Fayetteville is probably going to be out based on what happens.

Asheville and Fayetteville would do better in a large high school or college gym in the WBA like other teams in the southeast. Won't conflict with hockey or high school football and basketball.

[Mike4FireAntz34]

I would like to see an D-League team for every NBA team, but see why they can't right now.

The Buffalo team must be called the Braves. If there is one.

I agree that unfortunately Fayetteville is probably going to be out based on what happens.

Asheville and Fayetteville would do better in a large high school or college gym in the WBA like other teams in the southeast. Won't conflict with hockey or high school football and basketball.

Here in Fayetteville we do have the Crown Arena which holds about 8,000....

[#1 Guard Fan]

I don't see the NBDL gettting that large for many many years to come if ever

[panchess]

..the old CBA got up to 20 or so. One for one isn't going to work in the NBA, where fewer players are truly developed.

[#1 Guard Fan]

I think the NBDL is being used more for a tax right off than anything else

[TEN]

Don't be surprised if Roanoke is gone next year from the NBDL...I know that Tulsa isn't doing well attendance-wise (not that they won't be back, but I've heard they were expecting much more). I've also heard that the CBA is done after this year (possibly leading to a merger with the NBDL). USBL will be back with eight teams (Dodge, Okla, Neb., and Kansas...two PA teams, Brooklyn and Long Island).

[SignGuyDino]

OK, let's dare ask it then, what about adding the USBL, I know they're a summer league but still...

[SignGuyDino]

I would also like to add what I've been saying for 4 years: The conferences should be named "Continental" and "National."

[SignGuyDino]

Don't be surprised if Roanoke is gone next year from the NBDL...I know that Tulsa isn't doing well attendance-wise (not that they won't be back, but I've heard they were expecting much more). I've also heard that the CBA is done after this year (possibly leading to a merger with the NBDL). USBL will be back with eight teams (Dodge, Okla, Neb., and Kansas...two PA teams, Brooklyn and Long Island).


It depends on any teams north of Roanoke. Right now the hot thing in Virginia indoor sports wise is "Arena Racing USA" (www.arenaracingusa.com )

[#1 Guard Fan]

Now thats cool. Never seen Arena Racing before but I bet is draws a really good crowd. I wonder if they are going to try and get more cities on board with this. I think something like this would do really good in Fayetteville NC and pretty much any southern town that has a racing fan base

[Mike4FireAntz34]

That sounds like an Awesome racing league to go see live...If they brought it to Fayetteville,NC I would go see it a few times!!

[#1 Guard Fan]

Can you see all the red necks around here out there at the Crown. I think that might be the first time ever that it would sell out. Nothing against red necks just making a point

[SignGuyDino]

Sorry if it got off topic, the point was the D-League isn't catching on in Roanoke and things like Arena Racing USA appear be more than a novelty and Ricky Dennis was smart enough to start small instead of overextending himself like the NBDL did. (I started a topic on Arena Racing USA on the "Other Sports" forum.)

I think frankly had it started in smaller buildings it would have slowly grown to these full size arenas. Perception is hard to overcome. Newer cities will work better than the founding cities. Sad but true.

Playing at larger college or high school gyms would have saved the NBA money. I still think this way for most of the D-League teams. Even Asheville could work at Asheville High or UNC-Asheville.

It's obvious they aren't going to make money ever on this league but for them it's worth the investment to develop players. That may be the only thing that saves the Roanoke and Fayetteville teams.

[Chuck the Writer]

This would also bring up some very interesting rules issues. Would the D-League be interested in the quarter point program? And would this create a monopoly on NBA-pipelined leagues (both the CBA and the D-League have had 13 call-ups, Randy Livingston went up yesterday)?

I'm also thinking about statistical mergers. As many of you know, I am also the creator of cbamuseum.com. While I have toiled over a database incorporating the CBA's 60-year history, I have shied away from adding ancillary or merged leagues like the IBL or the IBA (except for the 2000-01 season where several CBA teams played in the IBL). I do, however, mention that franchises have won championships outside of the CBA (Rochester Zeniths, Dakota Wizards, etc.).

Personally if it comes to CBA-D-League affilations, I'd prefer that Albany become the affiliate of the Boston Celtics rather than of the New York Knicks. The last thing I need is Isiah Thomas coming back into the CBA in any way, shape or form.

And whoever mentioned that the Buffalo franchise should be the "Braves" is on target. And if Rochester and Albany become part of this enclave, I would hope Hartford, Trenton and Allentown also get back into the league (I don't know how people will feel about the return of the Allentown Jets in old Rockne Hall, but the Trenton Shooting Stars actually had a decent draw in their two years in the IBL).

But no matter what, I'll still have to work on previous league stats. Oh my gravy. Anybody have access to the D-League player stats from the previous seasons?

[SignGuyDino]

I think they should drop the quarter-point myself. Any really determined stat wonk could always figure out what the standings would have been with the quarter-point next year.

The D-League should drop those awful blue and white nets and go red-white-blue or just white.

The balls should match the colors of the home team, like they do for the NBA All-Star Game.

While we're at it, bring in trapezoid lane like Euroleague to see how it works in the D-League.

Finally, how about a minor league ALL-STAR GAME, Continentals vs. Nationals, home court in the finals (and $$$ for the winners of course) on the line. Could even have it on All-Star Saturday to give these guys some exposure. Not like people are paying $$$ to see Steve Nash bounce pass through a hoop on the floor.

[Chuck the Writer]

Finally, how about a minor league ALL-STAR GAME, Continentals vs. Nationals, home court in the finals (and $$$ for the winners of course) on the line. Could even have it on All-Star Saturday to give these guys some exposure. Not like people are paying $$$ to see Steve Nash bounce pass through a hoop on the floor.

I would love to see a CBA/D-League All-Star contest. That would certainly provide both leagues with bragging rights and motivation ("we're not going to lose to THAT league, dammit!").

In 1982, the CBA actually played their All-Star Game as part of a CBA/NBA All-Star Weekend at the Meadowlands Arena in NJ (today the Continental Airlines Arena). The CBA played the first game on Saturday, then the NBA played their ASG on the following Sunday.

[Pounder]

Breakdown time:

CBA:

Albany yes
Broomfield should be coming in
Dakota yes
Gary um, er, hmmmm, ??
Idaho if they're being cited as considering D-League, I guess yes (personally, I thought they were done for)
Michigan highly doubtful
Rockford also highly doubtful
Sioux Falls yes
Yakama if the Yakama Nation says they'll go one more year, and that seems to be the indication, then they'll have to be part of the merger.

(Rochester seems likely. Buffalo maybe. Did I forget anyone? BTW, NO, I did not forget Wichita Falls and La Crosse and Rapid City and Hartford... I suspect those bridges are burned.)

NBDL

Albuquerque yes
Arkansas heck yes
Austin yes, surprisingly IMO
Bakersfield should make it
Fayetteville probably not
Florida hard to see why they would, but if the Pit Bulls are making the jump, then who knows what happens here?
Fort Worth sounds like they can stick out another year
Roanoke they don't SEEM all that dead, but if Fayetteville is out, it's hard to see how the Dazzle stick around
Tulsa even though Fort Worth is the underperformer- OFF THE COURT- among the new cities, I think Tulsa is probably the club that is performing the furthest below expectations... unless you thought Arkansas was going to get a free pass from fans. This is where I'd be concerned... but, like Fort Worth, they'll stick it out for now.

I'm going to ignore other ABA options at this time. There's a stark difference between what Arkansas and Rochester can do and what the supposedly other "stable" ABA clubs have. I don't see them as a source.

SO... regionally, this is how a proposed merger looks right now:

NORTHEAST
Albany
? Buffalo ?
Rochester

- Enticing, say, Scranton and the Mohegan wouldn't hurt. What's potentially there is a good base to work with.

FLORIDA
? Estero ?
? Fort Lauderdale ?

- Honestly, can you build a division around this? I think not. Let Florida go.

MIDWEST
? Gary ?
? Michigan ?
? Rockford ?

- If all three of these teams are iffy, THAT is why there are merger talks, because a CBA without a middle isn't much to work with. Funny thing is, if there are merger talks, I think it's possible that Gary and Rockford might want to stick it out. The issue then becomes bringing in, say, Bloomington? Evansville? The Quad? Green Bay? I wouldn't bet on another Chicago suburb, but if you sucker an owner in for a couple years, it might fill out the numbers to allow others to survive just long enough for a stronger entity to buy in.

SOUTHWEST
Albuquerque
Arkansas
Austin
Fort Worth
Tulsa

- While I've noted concerns above, in the short term, this is a good base. You can bet on attracting more teams to this. So maybe I'll take back my comment about Wichita Falls.

PLAINS
? Broomfield ?
Dakota
Sioux Falls

- I have Broomfield in ?s because I'm playing Plains options versus Western options, in a game I'll probably lose. HOWEVER, with this base, steal a Kearney, take back what I said about Rapid City, and perhaps throw a bone towards Casper WY, and the worm will turn. Heck, Pueblo doesn't sound bad.

WEST - OPTION A
Bakersfield
Idaho
Yakima

- Find me Redding CA, Stockton, Modesto, maybe a Santa Rosa... nearly anything that links Bakersfield with the Northwest, and we're in business. Entice Central Oregon and Spokane, even better.

WEST - OPTION B
? Broomfield ?
Idaho
Yakama

- Kiss Bakersfield goodbye in this option, or find three willing cities in Southern California and Arizona to help out, because a Western Divison cannot span the ENTIRE west and work out financially. Meanwhile, with this threesome, this is where you pull in Utah and make it work. HOWEVER, I think better of the possibilities with Option A.

REGIONALIZATION. I might be obvious that this is my target. Four or six divisions, teams schedule primarily in division; this is the only way to go for a merger to make sense.

[skippy]

Truth be known, the numbers for all the new d-league teams are poor.
Actuals are 1000, to 1500 lower...and these teams are averaging less than 2000 in general.

[Pounder]

Truth be known, the numbers for all the new d-league teams are poor.
Actuals are 1000, to 1500 lower...and these teams are averaging less than 2000 in general.

All I can say is that, in past years, Idaho fared better on actuals.

This year, there's no way in Hell they're any better than the numbers you posted, probably worse.

What I'm saying, with the regionalization plan I propose, it should work given those numbers. Maybe there will even be a bit of energy created (maybe not the way to bet). Never forget that these teams make money if they sell player contracts to European teams, which is part of the reason Joe Newman even manages to remain in business.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Gary will return for the 2006-2007 season. Recent events in town make it a certainty. I don't know beans about a possible CBA/D-League merger, but Gary will take its place in the top minor basketball league next season.

[SignGuyDino]

CBA chief says CBA will return, even if teams bolt (uh-huh)...


http://www.yakima-herald.com/page/dis/285721880348465

[Chuck the Writer]

Something to remember about minor league basketball - in the 1940's, teams jumped from league to league nearly every season. In fact, two of the teams that formed the original six-team Eastern Professional Basketball League (today's CBA), the Wilkes-Barre Barons and the Allentown Rockets, jumped after the inaugural season to the rival American Basketball League (Wilkes-Barre returned to the EPBL after the ABL folded).

Other teams that have moved to the CBA from other leagues include the Rochester Zeniths (formerly of the AABA), the Dakota Wizards (formerly of the IBA) and the Reno Bighorns (the Western League).

Right now we're all coming up with our own fantasy leagues of CBA/ABA/D-League superconferences, comprised of existing teams, defunct teams, teams whom we feel should be in the league because the city could support a franchise, etc. This is fun discussion - but for now, all we have are some championship teams getting ready to raise the banners.

But it's going to be a very interesting summer.

[JAKMAN]

Hold on...this was an interesting article in the RR Star today:

http://www.rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060328/SPORTS09/103280010/1034

The CBA is talking expansion in four, maybe six cities. These may include teams in San Jose, CA and Reno, Nevada where the ABA was planning on expanding. So Rockford may not be dead yet, and there may be more teams coming to the party.

[Pounder]

This is where folks pickier than me would pounce on "Grand Forks, Montana."

Aw, heck. Grand Forks, NORTH DAKOTA, has one awesome shimmering facility, and there's no way the University of North Dakota is going to share it.

GREAT FALLS, Montana? There's a thought, but I'd be wary of their arena situation.

Bend again, eh?

[nksports]

OK, let's dare ask it then, what about adding the USBL, I know they're a summer league but still...

Most of the western USBL markets couldn't survive in the winter with the college competition (Oklahoma State and Oklahoma against Enid; Nebraska against the Cranes; Kansas State, Kansas and four area colleges against the Cagerz. Dodge City probably couldn't get arena dates since Dodge City CC and Dodge City HS use the Dodge City Civic Center.)

[skippy]

What we are all forgetting is that the NBDL will be expanding even without all the possible CBA defections.
I don't see Bismark, ND fitting in with the larger markets that the NBDL is/has been expanding to.
They are trying to make a true "Triple A" of minor league basketball, and look for them to go to markets tried by the original IBL.

[panchess]

..are over an hour from the big universities. Kearney is two hours from Lincoln.

They may not make it in the CBA, but Division 1 isn't the reason.

With the likelihood of one or two NDBL franchises folding or relocating, the Dakota expansion may just fill up the jug again. I would have to think the NDBL model that would work is the have pods of minor league teams relatively close to the NBA clubs, with pods on both coasts and maybe one in the south.

[minorleagueguru2]

I don't think the NBDL can afford, management wise, to expand so much in one season. I don't think that every NBA team is going to have an affiliate by next season.

Ok, here is how this affects the ABA (since I am a bigger fan of this league):

I think that if the NBDL and CBA merger occurs, the ABA is going to profit off of it. First of all, the NBDL is not going to accept all the CBA teams in one season. I think more people are going to go based on the fact that there is only one more highly competitive league in its season.

But, if the CBA loses some teams and merely expands into the ABA markets, I think that it could have terrible effects on the ABA. The CBA is obviously managed more efficiently and I think that may attract some ABA teams. I think that this could either be the downfall of the ABA as a league or maybe the ABA will become smaller.

Also, relating to the USBL: are you suggesting that the NBDL plays a longer season? (to include the months that the USBL is playing) If so, maybe it would be a decent idea. But, I doubt the USBL will give into it. Why would USBL teams let the NBDL take them over, when they could be making more money with the USBL? I think they would make more money, because they would be playing a shorter season and attendence would probably go down. (because of the college events etc.) Remember that Kearney has a college basketball team that many people in the area follow.

[panchess]

...the number of ABA teams is ridiculous. If someone is saying that adding eight NBDL teams (some of which are moving from other leagues) is too much for a league that in theory can draw on NBA resources, how can the Joe League add 40 teams a year?

[minorleagueguru2]

Well, these D League teams are often very expensive, moreso than their ABA counterparts.

Most of the added teams in the ABA don't stay anyway. The D League looks for lasting power.

[Pounder]

The D-League looks for lasting power? They've found nothing of the sort to date.

I don't think the NBA cares about the cost, and I'm not even sure they worry about stable markets in the D-League. This is relatively inexpensive player development for them. They may (or may not) want to expand slowly in order to keep those costs down.

[johnnydr87]

I must admit, the current setup of the DLeague deeply annoys me. People are called up and added to the team weekly. There is no stability within a team. Arkansas went from the best team, to the worst team, to now a middling performer. It's not predictable.

That said, I would love for them to expand. I think minor league bball can be profitable if the right setup is found...

[nksports]

I must admit, the current setup of the DLeague deeply annoys me. People are called up and added to the team weekly. There is no stability within a team. Arkansas went from the best team, to the worst team, to now a middling performer. It's not predictable.

That said, I would love for them to expand. I think minor league bball can be profitable if the right setup is found...

Welcome to the true meaning of a developmental league. Players get called up, sent down or sent home.
In affilated minor league baseball, every manager knows when a kid gets too hot, he gets called up. I remember the two glorious weeks Johnny Damon was in a Wichita Wranglers uniform. A guy gets injured at the major league level -- unless there is a free agent that can be signed, it causes a shake-up at every level (except maybe low A or rookie league), where everybody gets called up a level -- even if its for a few days

[A source close to the CBA]

I know a lot about this supposed "merger" but not sure what, if anything to release...would like to get some feedback from everyone, and may decided to let loose tomorrow. Message me if you're really looking to find out a little ahead of the curve.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Lets hear the news. What will it hold for the current east coast teams?

[Minor League Man]

If Dakota moves to the D-League, will they have to change their name (you know, 'cause of the Washington Wizards)?

[SignGuyDino]

I was thinking the exact same thing. You'd think the NBA would just affiliate them to the Washington Wizards and/or change the name of the team to the "Warlocks."

[nksports]

Again you go back to the baseball thing:
You have the Omaha Royals, the Richmond Braves etc. (The Indianapolis Indians predate Cleveland.) Of course with baseball's direct affiliations, there's less confusion.

[#1 Guard Fan]

I think that would help draw a bigger fan base because then you have that direct name link to the NBA team

[toad8098]

The latest news is that Idaho & Dakota will leave the CBA and join the D-League. Plus supposed CBA expansion cities Sioux Falls, SD & Broomfield, CO are also expected to join the D-League. With those four, plus the current Bakersfield, CA team and possibly the Florida PitBulls of the ABA would bring the expansion total up to 6 teams. If all 8 teams from this current season remain(which I doubt), that would bring the total to 14. I'd say 12 is more likely with Roanoke & Fayetteville folding. Hopefully the league will divide into 2 divisions.

SOUTH
Florida Flame
Florida PitBulls
Ft. Worth
Austin
Albuquerque
Bakersfield

NORTH
Tulsa
Arkansas
Idaho Stampede
Dakota Wizards
Sioux Falls
Broomfield

OR THREE DIVISIONS

SOUTH
Florida Flame
Florida PitBulls
Austin
Ft. Worth

NORTH
Arkansas
Tulsa
Sioux Falls
Dakota

WEST
Albuquerque
Bakersfield
Idaho
Broomfield

[morris]

I have a question.
If MOST Basketball fans throughout the country, do not like the NBA version of the game of basketball, then why in the world would they like to see a watered down version of the NBA game at a NBDL or CBA game?

If you have not already done so,try a ABA game out and you will see the difference! A totally different and REFRESHING PRODUCT! They play with the heart,drive and excitement of the NCAA game...Pro's playing the NCAA style game! It does not get much better than that!

We are hooked on the ABA game!!!!!!!(They have implimented some great rules that create spectacular play. The 3D rule is one of them!)

morris

[SignGuyDino]

uh-huh.....right...whatever...

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

...and if we use NBA call-ups as a barometer for talent, how good is the quality of play in the ABA?

Just a thought.

[panchess]

..can't be measured if the team doesn't show up and play.

Realistically, it's pretty obvious the CBA has much better talent. If the RazorSharks come to the CBA, I doubt that more than two or three of their players will make the transition with them.

Michigan may have ended the season on fumes and may not be back, but they did play all the games.

Not one ABA team played the entire 36-game schedule.

[Chuck the Writer]

It's official now. Three CBA franchises that played last year, and one that was SUPPOSED to play this year, have left the CBA for the NBDL.

So what does the D-League get?

The Sioux Falls SkyForce, a team that spent two decades in the CBA, winning two championships.

The Dakota Wizards, a team that joined the CBA as part of the merger of former CBA teams with the IBA, a team that won two championships in the CBA and one in the IBA.

The Idaho Stampede, a team that, while not winning any CBA championships, always drew respectably and provided their fans with quality basketball every night.

The Colorado 14ers, a team that was supposed to join the CBA for the 2006-07 season.

Currently, this brings the CBA down to five teams that played last year - Albany, Rockford, Gary, Michigan and Yakama. It increases the D-League to 13 teams, counting the Bakersfield Jam (moving from the ABA).

Best of luck to the teams that joined the D-League and all hopes for continued success both on and off the court.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Well bring the ABA to North Carolina and I would be happry to check it out. I will give anything a chance. heck I have support so many different minor leagues while I have been in NC it is crazy

[SignGuyDino]

Say NO to the ABA in the Carolinas. IBL or WBA, yes, ABA, please God Asheville has suffered enough. :O


The matchups between the 14er's and the 66'ers should be funny. :D