ABA & Florida = Stupidity Personified

[JAKMAN]

I saw an article on the back of the Chicago Tribune yesterday dealing with this, and I found the original source from the Miami Herald:

"The Florida Pit Bulls, the first-year franchise that qualified for postseason by going 19-9, are not participating in the American Basketball Association playoffs, but the league and team give conflicting stories about why that is the case.

ABA Commissioner Joe Newman told the Rochester (N.Y.) Democrat and Chronicle that he suspended the Pit Bulls from the playoffs because former Heat guard Tim Hardaway -- the team's coach, general manager and part-owner -- did not attend the Pit Bulls' final two regular-season road games at Long Island and Montreal.

''Tim guaranteed he'd be there and he wasn't,'' Newman said. ``We nearly had riots at both sites when he didn't appear.''

Demetrius Ford, one of the Pit Bulls' owners, said Saturday it was the team's decision not to participate in the playoffs because the Pit Bulls have applied to play in the NBA's developmental league next season.

He said Hardaway could not attend those two games because of personal family issues.

''We were not suspended and there were no riots,'' Ford said, adding the team might move from BankAtlantic Center to a new facility at Nova Southeastern next season."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/14079948.htm

The Trib also made reference that there is apparently is/was a dispute btw. FL and the league over who was owed money for the All-Star game.

Still, this is pretty low, even for Newman. How can you punish an entire team and take them out of the playoffs because one f***ing player, for whatever reason he didn't show, didn't show up? And how can Joe claim that riots were caused at an ABA game? There aren't enough f***ing fans that show up to ABA games to cause a f***ing riot in the first place. At least the team actually showed up, unlike the dozens of teams that haven't even PLAYED this season.

So now the league loses another team, perhaps for good, causing another black eye to the league and lost press because of Hardaway's somewhat-fading star power.

I don't understand anymore. Why doesn't this league just f***ing die?

[nksports]

It doesn't die because it is like the medusa. Everytime the head is cut off, another one grows back (aka it's a pyramid sceme. Everytime a team folds/joins another league/etc., a new sucker is conned into investing.)
Another problem is some of the owners are stupid, naive or out and out conmen.

[Sam Hill]

It doesn't die because it is like the medusa. Everytime the head is cut off, another one grows back.

That was the hydra, not Medusa.

[nksports]

Sorry, it's been about 20 years since my greek lit class in college. I'm getting old. I'm going back to eat some roasted pork. No wait, that's Lenny and Carl. Sorry, that was the Simpson's doing greek lit.

[chuck43]

I wouldn't worry about it NK, at least you went to college. Sam Hill barely got out of high school, and only fought to stay in school so he could keep managing the JV hoops team.

JAKMAN, finally someone who tells it like it is about the ABA and says it with feeling. All Joe does is simply spin EVERY single negativity with a lie that benefits him.

"Leave Joe alone, he promised me on Father's Day he would turn his life around and he will!!" Sam Hill on his relation with Dad.

[BreakersFan]

Any ABA rengades will be welcome to join us in the USBL!

[Pounder]

I was watching C-SPAN a couple months ago... the University of Tennessee was hosting a little symposium on the use of humor in politics (rather than just political humor). Howard Baker tells this tale of a former Republican Tennessee governor who got scheduled to give his stump speech in some small town with Democratic leanings. After determining that the scheduler screwed up, and after giving most of the speech without much of an enthusiastic response, the guy throws in a little zinger, along the lines of "the next time I come here, there will be a new four-lane highway that connects this town to the freeway over yonder," which did get the response the governor was looking for. The young Mr. Baker catches the governor after the speech and asks him how he could promise such an expensive and wasteful highway, to which the governor replies, "son, you're not listening. I said 'the next time I come here.' I ain't never comin' back here!"

Jakman, I just wanted you to re-read Newman's comment, especially about the "riot", and, um, appreciate the "artistry."

To others... passionate discourse is what Newman wants, because it draws attention to the league that he can't afford otherwise. I demand we be boring about the ABA.

[Chuck the Writer]

Removed by admin above.
Sam - just refer to the troll by his proper name, barkley34. He hates when you call him by his real name. He's no more of a "Chuck" than you are. He's only calling himself "Chuck" because I called him out on his crapola when he was barkley34, and now he pretends to be chuck43 (reveral of 34 and 43).

[Pounder]

I also demand we be boring about Chuck43. Same principle.

[Chuck the Writer]

I also demand we be boring about Chuck43. Same principle.

I second that motion.

[preeths]

Sam Hill, you are warned. DO NOT ever use that language on this board again, period. If you believe someone has violated board rules, report them. Do not respond in that manner again.

[chuck43]

Chuck the Writer, how can you call yourself a journalist? You stated that the ABA Vermont owner wasn;t doing this ABA thing for the story and yet we find out that is exactly why he is doing it? You realy had no clue did you???Secondly, myself nor anyone of my colleagues in the NBA have ever heard of you. As Ted Williams use to say about Boston writers, if they were any good, they would be in NY. You Chuck the "Writer"? None of us have ever heard of you or your work thus you cannot be that good. Keep your opinions about me to yourself. I don't respect your writing, your opinions or you. Pounder? Well, he can trash me because the guy has actually posted substance on this site and has real basketball knowledge, so I don't mind hearing it from someone that knows more about hoops then you......which is pretty much everyone. You? Sorry Chuck, no respect for you or your opinions. Sam Hill? LOL......

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Chuck43-

With all due respect, I think you are way off the mark about Chuck the Writer. I have read many of his articles, and a simple Google search can help you see the sort of quality stuff he has published. In addition, he has done a very good job of creating a comprehensive historical record for the CBA - the oldest basketball league in the US.

Bashing a guy's integrity just because he disagrees with you is Newman-esque. Chuck includes his name with his postings - he hides from nobody. Likewise, anyone who has read my postings knows my background as well. However, you have alluded to your career affiliation with the NBA, but have never revealed your identity or substance to support your career. Kind of hard to rip someone else's integrity, when you are hiding your own.

There are a lot of people here with varying views and opinions on minor-league basketball in general, and the buswreck that is the ABA in particular. Disagreement and differe=ing opinions do not make the poster less knowledgable (or whatever you throw at Sam Hill) than anyone else; an opinion can be drawn from many different aspects of the subject matter. Op/Ed sections in every newspaper in the country allow the writer to give their opinions about any multitude of subjects - there is no qualifying test needed to have one.

Disagreement on basis of fact is great - it spurs more discussion, and opens up other avenues. Disagreement by belittlement it petty and a waste of time - and generally done away with once the child reaches the 9th grade. If you really read a lot of the posting here, you will be surprised at how much your opinions agree with those of Sam, Chuck, Pounder and others when it comes to the ABA. But, because it seems you base your responses soley upon the byline of the writer, rather than what they posted - you tend to miss the message.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

FYI - Joe's spin on the Pit Bulls. Of course, he is the victim, and Florida is the bad guy (shock! surprise!):

ASK THE CEO - FLORIDA PIT BULLS?

17-Mar-2006
Question: (from many): What do you think of the press release put out by the Florida Pit Bulls?

Answer: I wasn't sure whether to respond or not to these questions. But because there were so many and it has created such interest, I thought I would. Mr. Ford felt it necessary to write the release to hurt the ABA and me personally - and for that I am very sorry. His release was done out of pride, hurt, anger, disappointment. As Vice President of Investor Relations for the ABA and as part of the ABA management team he complains about, he was privy to every meeting and has all inside information about the ABA and its operations. He certainly had the ears of everyone in the ABA and if he had questions and constructive criticism about major restructuring and leadership, he, like everyone in the ABA, had a forum to express his views.

As for the Pit Bulls being favored to win the ABA title, I believe that there are sixteen teams still playing that would take exception to this. The Pit Bulls had a good record, many teams had better records. The reporter in Rochester interpreted my statements to him differently than I meant them. I should have been more careful. I apologize, but reporters are free to report their interviews. In this case, it was hurtful. The real fact is that Montreal paid for the Pit Bulls to play that game and was told that Tim Hardaway would attend. The Pit Bulls did not tell Montreal that Tim would not be there. That created the problem. It is history now.

The ABA did not remove the Florida Pit Bulls from the Playoffs. Mr. Ford called me and advised me that they were not playing in the playoffs. He also sent an email to me on March 6th saying, "I wouldn't say we're folding. We're just making a business decision to move to the NBDL..." He also said that "Tim has a passion for helping young talent, and while there was a lot of talent on our team and in the ABA, he feels that our market would support an NBA-affiliated product a little more than what we offered as an ABA organization."

As Vice President of Investor Relations for the ABA and part of the ABA management team, I felt that it was Mr. Ford's responsibility to tell us of their intentions well before they decided not to play in the playoffs. When Mr. Ford called later or the next day and asked if I would re-instate the Pit Bulls for the playoffs, I saw no reason to reconsider though I felt sorry for his team, for his fans and for his investors. Mr. Ford also said in the March 6th email: "We will not say anything negative about the ABA at all. In fact, I will make sure it's totally positive and show my continued support of the league."

Tim Hardaway's comments are his opinions and he is entitled to them. However, we disagree with him and with the management of the Pit Bulls. The prices for the fans were not ABA affordable, they were the highest in the ABA. The Pit Bulls lost more money than any other team, their attendance was average with many other teams outperforming them at the gate, their community involvement was almost non-existent (YMCA, Boys & Girls Club, schools, churches, youth leagues, senior organization, police, fire department, Latino organizations, not-for-profit organizations, military, etc). Their record of 19-9 was ok, but not particularly special. We have great respect for Tim and we wish him well in the future. His heart is still with the NBA, the Heat and Pat Riley. Why shouldn't it be?

My feeling was and is that the Pit Bulls should have concentrated on running their team and following the recommended ABA team model and not trying to run the ABA. There are many other owners in the ABA who are every bit (or more) qualified to give constructive criticism and advice and they do. And we listen.

Fast growth is not easy. Managing a league that has doubled in size every year and will double again next season is not easy. But the ABA is the fastest-growing league ever in the U.S. It is the most diversified professional sports league in the U.S. with more African-American, Hispanic, Asian and women owners than the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, CBA, USBL and NBDL combined. It provides an opportunity for hundreds of players to play, coaches to coach, refs to ref. It provides fan-friendly and affordable sports and entertainment to tens of thousands of parents with children, students, seniors, military, police, fire departments, city workers and others. It has supported not-for-profit organizations with ABA balls, money and merchandise including Katrina and Wilma victims, and it supports the military through its ABA Salute program.

Even with the NBA behind it, the NBDL has left a trail of broken-hearted cities as they have folded teams; so has the CBA and USBL and AFL and others. It is the nature of minor league sports. But when all is said and done - there is only one ABA - and it is the best professional sports league in the U.S. because it holds true to its mission - to provide fast-paced, exciting professional basketball and entertainment at affordable prices - and to give opportunities to those who want to own a professional sports team without preference to race, religion or gender. And that's my answer.

If you have a question, please email joenewman@abalive.com.

Note Joe's 'cut-and-paste' method of responding to virtually every question. It's like a bad game of Mad-libs:

Hurricane Katrina/Wilma hurt us
but never really says what teams wee affected
fast-paced, exciting professional basketball and entertainment at affordable prices
when games are actuall played, of course
The reporter in Rochester interpreted my statements to him differently than I meant them
since they make Joe look bad, a reporter's negative writing is never accurate - Newman would be misquoted in his autobiography
But the ABA is the fastest-growing league ever in the U.Sfastest shrinking as well; over half of the teams that started this season were no longer active come playoff time
It is the most diversified professional sports league in the U.S. with more African-American, Hispanic, Asian and women owners than the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, CBA, USBL and NBDL combined.
Most of whom are woefully underfinanced or morally/ethically qualified to run a 'family friendly' franchise; but as long as that initial $20K check doesn't bounce...
It provides an opportunity for hundreds of players to play, coaches to coach, refs to ref.
when there are actual games played that allows this. (Note he doesn't say 'hundreds of players to get paid' - but maybe next year...)
It provides fan-friendly and affordable sports and entertainment to tens of thousands of parents with children, students, seniors, military, police, fire departments, city workers and others
Removing the Rochester franchise from the argument, it is very probale that there weren't 20,000 TOTAL fans at every other ABA game combined this season (and we can't count Florida, they no longer exist)
It has supported not-for-profit organizations with ABA balls, money and merchandise including Katrina and Wilma victims
maybe they sent some balls to New Orleans, instead of the $50K Joe promised to send if only the NBA would call him to play a game. Certainly those without homes enjoyed the ABA ball rather than cash to buy food, clothing, etc.
Even with the NBA behind it, the NBDL has left a trail of broken-hearted cities as they have folded teams; so has the CBA and USBL and AFL and others.
But none of those leagues has the overwhelming failure rate of the ABA. Just in the past two years alone nearly 50 TEAMS have folded, disappeared or been 'Joe-spended'
give opportunities to those who want to own a professional sports team without preference to race, religion or gender.
or financial support, or credit check, or validity of business claims, or due diligence...
And that's my answer
and we would expect nothing less - and not a whole lot more, either...

[chuck43]

In all honesty ABARedWHiteandBlue you are the reason me and a few of my colleagues come to this site. I am dead serious. Your take on Newman, his pathetic charade and the fact you usually have the first scoop makes coming here ll worth while. As for Chuck the Writer I have read 1 of his pieces, did a search and found next to nothing, and was not impressed. I am not bashing his integrity, my OPINION is that he is not that good. Period. End of story. As for your postings, I think they absolutely rock!

[chuck43]

The ABA has "investor relations"?????? For who? WHo are the investors? Joe runs the charade from his kitchen? Are they publicly traded? On the NASDAQ or NYSE? There are no investors. They have less then $7,250 in their checking account.

[preeths]

Okay, everyone, let's get away from all the personal stuff between posters. No one cares if anyone here disrespects a journalist or why they do. Good journalists write the story, they don't become the story. To paraphrase, honorable people can disagree. This thread has more than enough to talk about without attacking each other.

[minorleagueguru2]

Yeah, I'm kind of new here. Can someone PM me a link to one of ABARedWhiteBlue's article?

Back to the topic. Yes, Newman is a complete joke. I'm glad for Florida that they got out when they did. I'm an ABA fan, but one has the realize that Newman is horrible. He is a complete BS artist. Instead of attacking the ABA as a league, people should be attacking Newman and hoping he gets fired. The ABA is a great basketball league, whether the management is poor or not. Some people need to recognize the difference between the management and the league itself.

[preeths]

Here are some emails that have circulated between Demetrius Ford of the Pit Bulls and Joe Newman:

Joe,

I was recently approached by the Miami Heat, and they asked me how Tim Hardaway would feel about moving the team over to the NBDL to be the official Miami Heat affiliate. As you know, Tim has not been happy with his experience with the ABA, and the NBA is where he really wants to be, even if it means being a part of the D league. Tim has a passion for helping develop young talent, and while there was a lot of talent on our team and in the ABA, he feels that our market would support an NBA-affiliated product a little more than what we offered as an ABA organization.

The NBDL made it clear to us that although they would be delighted to have us, they would not accept a franchise application from us while we were still an ABA organization. In order for us to fund an NBDL team and be ready for the 2006-2007 season, we have to move quickly, but we also want to do what we feel is the right thing by the ABA and the teams who are fighting for the title, and that's to step aside.

I wouldn't say we're folding. We're just making a business decision to move to the NBDL. But for your purposes, I would say that the market would be open after this season, but I don't know how attractive it would be to another ownership group, given the fact that we would be here with an NBDL team, and "Mr. President" would be less than an hour away to our north in West Palm.

I intend to take care of the arena (somehow). I'm working on getting some more money in here soon.

Tom and Stein do not know as of yet, but I have tried to reach them to let them know where we stand.

The other shareholders, outside of Angela, are aware of the situation and support the move.

I will be very careful how we get the message out to the public. We will not say anything negative about the ABA at all. In fact, I will make sure it's totally positive and show my continued support of the league.

Call me when you can to discuss.

Regards,

Demetrius D. Ford



From:
Sent: 03/07/2006 7:47 AM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Re: ABA - Florida Pit Bulls

Demetrius. Thank you for the email. You make Brutus look good.

Joe Newman
ABA CEO



Joe,

That was a very hurtful comment, and I am very offended by it. The decision to move to the NBDL was NOT my decision. I wanted very much to finish this season and win the title. So did my players. The decision was forced by Tim Hardaway, and heavily supported by the other owners. I have ALWAYS been loyal to the ABA, and although you and I had our differences, I remained committed to helping build this league into what we all know it could become.

But just so you know, here are the reasons for the decision:

Tim Hardaway

When we had to pay for Orange County to fly out to our very first home game, it immediately put Tim in the mindset that this league was not where he wanted to be. Week after week, with teams folding and our team being subjected to extremely low-class accommodations on the road, Tim became more and more disappointed and upset. He was constantly being questioned by the media and his peers as to why he would continue to be associated with the ABA, and he felt embarrassed. But yet and still, he continued to play hard, even on the road. He agreed to help the other teams out by making himself available to do radio, TV and newspaper interviews. He signed autographs and took hundreds of pictures with the other teams’ fans.

He was also prepared to finish the season and fight for the title, until this past week when he learned about the bad checks that were left here during All Star Weekend, and heard how Jolie was telling everyone she came in contact with that it was the Pit Bulls’ fault. You see, one of those checks was written to a very close friend of our VP of Basketball Operations, Carl Collins. Carl is Tim’s best friend. Tim was so upset with the league for doing that, that he made the decision NOT to play anymore this season, and that’s why he did not play in Long Island or Montreal. He didn’t even make the trip. This had a major effect on my players, and they just went through the motions on the court and played the worst 2 games of basketball they’ve played all year.

To cap it off, after a 9-hour bus ride from Montreal back to Long Island, where we were told we would have hotel accomodations, there were no accommodations (Darren Cioffi dropped the ball big time!), so we had to literally sleep at Long Island airport on chairs and benches. When Tim heard this, it was the last straw for him. When we got back in town, he met me at the airport and told me he was finished with the ABA, and that he would not come back next season unless we moved to the D league. He talked about the bad officiating all season, the crowds of less than 50 at many of our away games, the poor treatment we received from more than a couple teams, the money we had to lay out to bring in teams that was never reimbursed to us by the league, and of course, the bad checks. He sees all that our organization does to put out a great product here, but when we go on the road, with the exception of a couple teams, we see just the opposite; poor attendances, no entertainment during the games, no mascots, etc., and he feels like we’re the only ones trying to do it right.

Dr. Gelbard

Joe, Dr. Gelbard has always been our largest investor and biggest chearleader. Our first-year financial model called for him making systematic capital infusions into the team over the course of the season. In December, he agreed to personally cover the cost of Charlotte flying in to play us because YOU said the league would reimburse him the following week. That obviously did not happen. When he asked me to follow up with you on it, and you responded by saying that you were “waiting on repayment from other teams you lent money to before you could repay him,” he was blown away. Honestly, he felt like you lied to him about repaying him, and he has NO tollerance for that. From that point on, trying to get money out of him was like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip. He was supposed to put in another $200,000 the first week of January, which would have been his final payment for the 20% of the team he was acquiring ($500,000 total investment). But he was so turned off by your refusing to pay back such a relatively small amount of money that he basically told me that he wasn’t interested in increasing his equity position beyond where he stood. He told me flat out that no matter how great we are as a team – the wins and the show we put on for our fans – the fact remains that were are only as strong as the league, and in his opinion, if the league couldn’t afford to pay back $5,000, and the league’s CEO lied to team owners about reimbursements like this, then the league is ready to crumble at any second. THAT Joe, is the reason the Pit Bulls are in such a bad financial position today. It is not due to “extravagant spending” as Angela would have you believe. We knew what our hard costs were and Gelbard’s final $200,000 would have gotten us through the season, and the All Star weekend would not have been such a poorly-financed situation. I was not prepared for Gelbard to back away the way he did, as abruptly as he did it. I have been struggling ever since to find new investors, but with all that’s happened down here – especially all the schedule changes and cancellations – it’s been extremely difficult, actually impossible, to get investors excited about buying into the team right now.

The Arena

We have located another arena to play at next season that would save us over $230,000 a season. However, that arena is managed by the same group that manages the BAC. They told us they would NOT let us play at either facility next season if we were still an ABA team because they took a lot of hits this season as a result of all the schedule changes and cancellations. They are not willing to risk a repeat next season.

Season Ticket Holders

Most of our season ticket holders came to us through the help of the BAC and the Florida Panthers Hockey Club. These are very wealthy and influential people. I have received e-mails and/or telephone calls from most of them, and they all say they’ve been extremely frustrated and disappointed this season and that most likely, they will not renew their seats for next season. This is a major concern because these people have great “reach” into my market, and they can spread a cancer that cannot be cured.

So, in summary Joe, Tim will not support the ABA or an ABA team any longer. My investors will not support an ABA team any longer. I do not believe I can successfully fund the Pit Bulls, as an ABA team, for another season because Tim Hardaway will NOT be associated with it, and he is our “hook.” No matter what I say or do at this point, there are too many reasons for my people to want to go in the direction of the NBDL. Again, this was NOT my decision, so save the “back-stabber” comments for someone who really deserves it. We are in a difficult spot right now, and I have investors to answer to. This is not personal Joe, so please don’t try to put a personal spin on it. My hands are tied, and I truly hope you can understand my position.


Regards,

Demetrius D. Ford
Owner and President, Florida Pit Bulls
BankAtlantic Center
One Panther Parkway
Sunrise, Florida 33323
Tel: (954) 835-8630
Fax: (954) 835-8631

[slapshot]

Well, I think may very well be the smoking gun that needed to come out about Joe and his league. Although, as we've seen in his "Ask the CEO" about the Florida situation, he - and the ABA - are faultless. I'm sure the Pit Bulls' situation is not unique, as those of us who have followed this circus came to realize long ago.

Unfortunately, to answer Minorleagueguru2, Joe is his own board of directors. So, the only person who seemingly can fire Joe is Joe. And, also unfortunately, he also has other suckers lined up (like the three in Texas and the Frost Heaves) who are more than happy to take Florida's place.

Remember the post Joe had about where everyone's franchise money went? The majority of it seemed to go into "legal fees" - now we know why. I'd just like to know where all of the lawsuits are from these owners who are due reimbursements from the league.

[chuck43]

How does Joe have a VP/Special Counsel when he has no law firm under retainer because he cannot afford one; how does he have VP ABA Entertainment when there is no such extension of the ABA........none whatsoever......never has been......how does he have a VP of Operations when he alone runs it from his kitchen table......is this all a charade to look like a mini NBA? Four months back we came up with confirmed data that both Joe and Ricardo Richardson had pending lawsuits in the double digits and both had credit scores below 450!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why, in God's name is this jackass allowed to sell franchises? His franchise failure rate is more then 75%. If McDonalds or Subway had this track record, credit scores or lawsuits pending the Attorney Generals Office would have shut them down long ago. What are these franchisees thinking? That they can become a George Steinbrenner for $10,000, brag to their buddies, have a team for a month, go bankrupt then back to their day job? This screws the honest players, coaches and sponsors....disgusting!!!

[slapshot]

Chuck43 - you forget that, so long as there are suckers willing to give Joe $10,000 for the chance to fulfill their dreams of becoming sports team owners, he'll never go away. Although it is hard to believe that none of these other owners have done enough due diligence to see what a scam it is. Although, I have to admit, I'm kind of looking forward to next season to see what Alex Wolff writes when the Frost Heaves are scheduled to host Pittsburgh and Ohio shows up at the last minute with six players and no uniforms. Or when he has to pay the travel expenses for Detroit to come to Vermont.

Just remember, that Joe is truly "old school" - that school being PT Barnum University, that is.

[nksports]

Unfortunately, to answer Minorleagueguru2, Joe is his own board of directors. So, the only person who seemingly can fire Joe is Joe.
There is a way to "fire" Joe. If the few remaining solid owners either bail out to other leagues or band together to form their own league, the ABA will collapse.

[slapshot]

If nothing else, Joe and ABA do make for some interesting reading. Thought the comment from Wolff was interesting:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060319/SPORTS/603190349/1007/SPORTS

[Chuck the Writer]

Chuck the Writer, how can you call yourself a journalist?

Let's see... 16 years as a professional paid writer and columnist, including publication in Basketball Digest (including a cover story and several features), Hockey Ink!, Football Digest, Goldmine (11 cover stories), Society for International Hockey Research (scholarly publication, article on the history of the 1942 AHL All-Star Game), RoadKing, Minorlegauenews.com, Probasketballnews.com, the Journal of Country Music (scholarly publication), and a history of the CBA All-Star Classic that was recently posted in OSC... I think that qualifies just fine. And what have YOU accomplished in your lifetime?

You stated that the ABA Vermont owner wasn;t doing this ABA thing for the story and yet we find out that is exactly why he is doing it? You realy had no clue did you???

Actually, I DID post that he was using his application to the Frost Heaves as an ongoing column for SI. My post is as such:


Or maybe, just maybe, this story is about the perils of owning any minor league sports franchise - that anyone who thinks they have a few thousand dollars to buy a franchise suddenly discovers it's more than just matching uniforms, a webpage, a dance team with a mixture of Maxim Girls and Hooters Girls, and some warm bodies on a basketball court - is more difficult than one can imagine. Owning a basketball team in a minor league is more than just an ego-stroke. It takes years of commitment, involvement in the community, sponsorship, stability, etc.

QED.

Secondly, myself nor anyone of my colleagues in the NBA have ever heard of you.

I don't believe anyone in the NBA has ever heard of you either. But that's another story in and of itself - considering you claim to be "Chuck Sechler from Peoria," and that the "43" in your name was because you were born in 1943, this means that you're currently 63 years old and just frustrated with your life.

As Ted Williams use to say about Boston writers, if they were any good, they would be in NY.

I'm based in New York. Albany IS the state capital of New York, binky.

You Chuck the "Writer"? None of us have ever heard of you or your work thus you cannot be that good.

Argumentum ad Ignorantiam - your argument is flawed because you are basing your argument on personal incredulity. You've probably never heard of Robert Frost, Eudora Welty, John R. Tunis or Franklin W. Dixon without having to run to wikipedia.

Keep your opinions about me to yourself. I don't respect your writing, your opinions or you. Pounder? Well, he can trash me because the guy has actually posted substance on this site and has real basketball knowledge, so I don't mind hearing it from someone that knows more about hoops then you......which is pretty much everyone. You? Sorry Chuck, no respect for you or your opinions. Sam Hill? LOL......

Well, I would love to have a battle of wits with you barkley34, but in order to make it a fair and even fight I should only use half my wits.

And that's all I have to say about that.

In the meantime, let's talk basketball.

[nksports]

Between Chuck, Chuck and Chuckles (my old nickname for Charles Barkley), I'm feeling a lot of love here.

[chuck43]

removed by admin for violation of board rules

[chuck43]

And the reason I use Chuck and Charles is because I have worked with Barkey ever since he came out of Leeds, Alabama. I worked with his agents on the compensation of his contract and structuring when he was in Philly, Pheonix, all though I didn;t handle the one in Houston, he did that on his own. It was cut and dry. Charles is a great friend, great to work with and trusted my judgemnt as does EVERY player I work with and contract I handle. I am 46 years old, reside in NYC and you will NOT find anyone more brilliant then me.

[preeths]

chuck43, you are suspended from OurSports Central's forums for one month for violation of board rules. When you can post your opinion without personally attacking others on the board, you may use the boards again.

[Sam Hill]

'bout time.

Despite numerous entreaties, I have yet to hear chuck/barkley34 explain exactly what I've posted that's incorrect, and what makes me so stupid.

I've actually worked in minor league sports marketing. I've actually run a team. I've actually sold tickets. He's never done any of these things, near as I can tell (not to mention lying about who he is and where he's from - but, hey, that doesn't hurt one's credibility, does it?). Yet he feels he can opine about it.

Got news for ya, Chuckles - you can't. And for the next month, at least, you won't.

Have a nice vacation, Sunshine!

[Sam Hill]

Still, this is pretty low, even for Newman. How can you punish an entire team and take them out of the playoffs because one f***ing player, for whatever reason he didn't show, didn't show up? And how can Joe claim that riots were caused at an ABA game? There aren't enough f***ing fans that show up to ABA games to cause a f***ing riot in the first place. At least the team actually showed up, unlike the dozens of teams that haven't even PLAYED this season.

So now the league loses another team, perhaps for good, causing another black eye to the league and lost press because of Hardaway's somewhat-fading star power.

I don't understand anymore. Why doesn't this league just f***ing die?

If I'd have known it was okay to use such language as long as it had asterisks in it, I'd have used asterisks.

Bottom line: barkley34 has never sold a ticket, never run a team, never marketed, and is a pencil pusher who, for some reason, bashes the ABA himself and then bashes me for bashing the ABA. Go figure.

[mcm2667]

Actually Sam Hill, Barkley34 is VERY, VERY good friends with Charles and does very well with the NBA.

And Paul, why is it that someone like Sam Hill who knows NOTHING about hoops, the NBA or anything else remotely concerning basketball allowed to bash other people. He truly is a very uninformed, unintelligent blowhard, and at some points worse then Barkley34...or Chuck43 or whatever handle he uses. Lets stick to minor league hoops and Sam......stick to...I don;t know...whatever it is you do. You really are in the same class as Newman.

[Minor League Man]

Man, is it me, or is this the "Board Violation Thread"?

[Sam Hill]

Actually Sam Hill, Barkley34 is VERY, VERY good friends with Charles and does very well with the NBA.

And Paul, why is it that someone like Sam Hill who knows NOTHING about hoops, the NBA or anything else remotely concerning basketball allowed to bash other people. He truly is a very uninformed, unintelligent blowhard, and at some points worse then Barkley34...or Chuck43 or whatever handle he uses. Lets stick to minor league hoops and Sam......stick to...I don;t know...whatever it is you do. You really are in the same class as Newman.

Well, then, it should be easy for you (who seems to be a sockpuppet, with all of three posts) to point out exactly what I've posted that's uninformed and unintelligent. You couldn't do it when you were barkley34, you couldn't do it when you were Chuck43, and you apparently can't do it now that you're mcm2667.

How does being friends with Charles Barkley make one wise in the ways of minor league sports marketing at a team or league level? Can you explain that one to me?

How does "doing very well with the NBA," when he's admitted he's basically an actuary, qualify one to opine about how a team or league conducts its marketing and operations?

One more time: point out to me what I've said that makes me so dumb.

[Sam Hill]

Oh, wait a minute! I just realized who mcm2667 is!

It's our old buddy Mark McClure, the guy who is so beloved by doormen everywhere, who said LeBron James would never make an impact on the NBA because he didn't score 50 points a game in high school, who said he goes to Portsmouth and hangs around players and coaches and really, truly knows more about basketball than any two message board peons could ever hope to, who said he was going to do a million in revenue with his USBL team, who , as far as we can tell has taken two (or is it three? I have lost count) basketball teams and they've all failed miserably (of course - it wasn't his fault - Robert Reid did the last one), who said he had thousands of tickets sold for his USBL team's opener (a handful showed up, despite having already bought tickets, which I found odd)...shall I continue?

Face it, Mark - for all of your supposed basketball knowledge, for all of your trumped-up, undeserved ego, your basketball pedigree is hardly better than my postman's. What have you ever actually done that makes you an expert, and able to tell anyone that they don't know what they're talking about?

Sports marketing has some tenets that are the same regardless of sport. There are some things that have to be tweaked for each sport.

But you weren't going to do a million in revenue in Fort Worth (you got out before it could become painfully obvious you were in over your head) no matter what you did, and guys like TEN even told you so. But, hell, what's he ever done? Besides run a couple of teams that have actually survived more than a year and been recognized as a guy who can actually do this.

So for all the time you spent in Portsmouth that gave you the insight that LeBron James couldn't play, for all the times you've actually put yourself out there and put money on the line, you haven't actually proven you know any more about sports marketing than me. You haven't actually proven you know anything about basketball about how to talk a good game and make friends with doormen.

How'd it go with your many contacts throughout the US who you said would have a surprise for Fort Worth Weekly? Ever pay the folks in Portland what you owed them? Mark Cuban ever get back to you about playing him?

You're a hotel guy/motivational speaker with a past you won't talk about and a big ego. You're all hat, and no cattle. But, hey, you're "one of the Top 5 Speakers in the world on sales and entrepreneurialism," or so you say.

Just out of curiosity, who are the other four?

[preeths]

Let's try something new. Address the points made and not the poster. Put the personal stuff aside and discuss basketball. We're not going to see people put their entire resumes here, so let's stop asking for credentials when people state an opinion. Argue the point on its merits, not the resume of the person stating it. Even people with a good deal of experience and contacts can be dead wrong, some more often than not. Those who enjoy posting on this board will heed the above advice.

[mcm2667]

Your right Paul and this will be the last time I address someone like Sam Hill. Ahhh, Sam, if you check my site out I have sold out audiences on 4 continents...see the pics? Singapore, Malaysia, Europe and was INVITED to speak in Saudi Arabia in all three major cities....including Mecca!!!!!!!!!!
My wealth of knowledge of running businesses (and the Rim Rockers were run NOT by me, but by Wesley) and HUGE success has me in demand to speak at FORTUNE 500 firms worldwide. On top of that I own 33% of two teams in Europe that are massively successful (thanks to MY sponsorships of $1.5 million EURO) that I brought in, and give me an asset value in these teams personally of $6.5 million Euro which is 20% higher then the USD. Unlike you I fail at NOTHING and THAT is why I am a best seller, sell out conference rooms worldwide and am CONSTANTLY in demand to address audiences EVERYWHERE on how to be successful in business. From my HUGELY successful teams in Europe to my hotels and other interests in Singapore and South America, you can only dream to live the life I have Sam. Your just a little guy. No offense.

[mcm2667]

Oh and lastly Sam, I recently invested $1.35 million and am co-producer in an Indie film that has James Woods attached. Just FYI. As with all my other ventures, this will succees too.