Everett Hawks

[BlazedWarrior]

I know you all will hate because you probably went over this 1000 times, but, what happened to the Hawks?

[fwp]

I know you all will hate because you probably went over this 1000 times, but, what happened to the Hawks?

They went to the af2.

[#1 Guard Fan]

They got to move on up to the AF2

[fwp]

They got to move on up to the AF2

Not a move up. Same level. Much more expensive. Seems more organized during the season.

[outside source]

Somebodys ego at work, nothing more.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Ok if you same it is the same level. I am not blashing on the NIFL because we have a team in that league now and I will support them. Just things seem a little rockier in the NIFL than it did in the AF2

[fwp]

Can't argue with that.

[phydeaux72]

Ok if you same it is the same level. I am not blashing on the NIFL because we have a team in that league now and I will support them. Just things seem a little rockier in the NIFL than it did in the AF2

The af2 is just better at covering up their problems. The one bad thing about the af2, as with alot of other minor leagues (ie, CHL, ECHL, etc.) is that the league dues are so outragious that it doesn't allow the franchises to be profitable. In the NIFL, IFL, UIF, etc, the league dues allow the franchises, if run properly, to be profitable. The only downfall to that cost structure is that you get alot more riff raff in the process.

[BlazedWarrior]

Well, good for them. My Utah team made the jump to AFL, but, I really wish we still had the Warriors.

[outside source]

Comes down to two things. Depends on which version, indoor or arena, you prefer and 2, which version is closest to you.

[preeths]

It's really difficult to even have this discussion without laying down some ground rules because people end up talking about two different things. First, some focus exclusively on the field - the game and the rules. You have those who love indoor football and those who are die-hard Arena fans (and a whole lot more who love all football). This is a matter of personal preference. Second, you have those who are looking off the field - at the business side of things. They care move about team and league stability than the rules. Here we can apply some objective criteria to gain some answers.

When people say a team "moved up," they could mean that they consider the receiving league a level up (i.e. going from AA to AAA), or they could be referring to a move to a more stable organization. So, focusing on the business side, did the Hawks make a move up or a lateral move and why do you think so?

I don't buy this whole idea of one league being that much better at covering up its problems. These are all minor leagues we're talking about, and they'll admit they each have had their issues. Besides, you don't have to cover up problems to deal with them. You can disclose the facts as fully as possible and move on. It would be more productive to discuss which leagues deal with their problems better. If you're comparing two restaurants, one with a burned out light bulb and another being shut down by the health inspector, you can't just shrug your shoulders and say, "They both have problems. Who's to say which is better?" I'm not comparing af2 or the NIFL to either restaurant, but I know we can bring more facts to the table to support views on either side.

[PIONEERSFAN101]

AF2's major problem came in the first two years with QC, other than that, you really don't find too many obvious failures.

On the other hand, with NIFL, we think of the several failures before we even get to the onfield product. CSM, teams folding and being suspended in midseason,bad owners,etc,etc..

[fwp]

The QC scam may have been the biggest at this level of indoor football and doesn't really get the play that some of the other leagues do.

I've experienced both leagues here in Lincoln and it seems the af2 pull out in Lincoln is poo pooed on a regular basis. That's as big as any of the other team's that have gone under in other leagues.

Yes, they did fold the team a few weeks before the season started, but there were many obvious untruths told. When the team started the af2 league sold their product on a 3 year commitment. As I remember there was enough money put up to make sure that the team had that long to make or break. That would give the game time to grow on Lincoln fans, or so it was told.

In truth, a few weeks before Lincoln's second season was to commence there were rumors that the Lightning was going to fold, it did. There didn't seem to be any effort to refund season ticket holders or sponsors by this af2 either. For all the abuse our NIFL owner takes, he honored all of those commitments to season ticket holders and sponsors as he filled the void. I would imagine that put the team in a deep hole right off the bat.

Style of game.........I do prefer the indoor game, it's more of a real game. The arena style seems to gear the rules to give more of a circus atmosphere, hampering the defense to produce more scoring, making the running game less desireable.

All leagues at this level do have their problems. There does seem to be a more concerted effort to play up some problems by specific leagues by some though.

JMO

[Pounder]

The af2 is just better at covering up their problems. The one bad thing about the af2, as with alot of other minor leagues (ie, CHL, ECHL, etc.) is that the league dues are so outragious that it doesn't allow the franchises to be profitable. In the NIFL, IFL, UIF, etc, the league dues allow the franchises, if run properly, to be profitable. The only downfall to that cost structure is that you get alot more riff raff in the process.

May I offer the opinion that the "outrageous" league dues are exactly why af2 is more stable than NIFL?

(1) Prospective owners almost inevitably have to perform more due diligence to make sure that they can afford what they're about to embark on.

(2) When the league has to prop up a team versus have to let them fold midseason, the dues come in handy.

(3) Since the league has less clout with credit agencies, can't afford a large investigative firm to check out potential ownership, the high dues do a better job of weeding out the chaff than any other non-labor-intensive method out there.

[rams80]

The af2 exists for one reason only. The AFL perceived a "threat" in the old Indoor Football League, and formed the af2 to compete with it. Once the league was in existence, the AFL also saw the opportunity to make some fast cash off of expansion fees, hence rapid expansion. Now in the last two offseasons, you have the league returning to its original "kill all rivals" mode. Take in Amarillo-kill the Intense League. Take in Everett, Spokane, maybe Boise-cripple if not finish off NIFL. Attempt to bring in Fort Wayne and Lexington-try to kill the UIF. I can only assume the reason they didn't go after the AIFL this season is because they see it self-destructing in a year or two through rapid expansion.

As for the business plan; the high costs keep teams from going belly-up midseason. The only support the AFL really gives the af2 is occasional press and the right to use the "arena" name. Everything else they do seems to be characterized by what I call "active neglect". They just save the foldings for the offseason. Think about this-they only lost San Diego this past offseason and in the process pushed the average number of dead markets an offseason to under 5.

[preeths]

But I think you ended your post with the biggest hole in your theory, at least as applied to af2 at present. The folding of af2 franchises has decreased, down to just one last season, plus the league was able to bring back Huntsville and add a few more. If it's so tough to make a go of it in af2, why didn't they lose more teams?

[rams80]

Bako only survived through league bailouts and the fact that if they went, the af2 might as well just abandon the west coast. Their Northwestern expansion has removed reason two for its continued survival, and when the other 24 owners get sick of paying for the team reason one will go.

I'm pretty sure the only reason BCS has a team this year is because arenacup revenue bailed them out.

Everett had trouble paying everything in the NIFL's financial structure. How long will they last in the more hostile af2 climate?

Green Bay would have died this offseason without new owners-and if the "slashing ticket prices" strategy doesn't work, there's probably a good chance this will be their last season.

Huntsville may or may not be a good move-depends if the fans will support an awful expansion team or not.

Amarillo reportedly wants out.

RGV almost died over the past offseason; maybe travel will get them this year.

This next year will prove a lot.

[outside source]

Everett had no money problems other than someone not liking to write checks.

[fwp]

Everett had no money problems other than someone not liking to write checks.

That's a problem!:D

[preeths]

You're only pointing out that af2, like every single minor league, has its share of trouble spots. Some may work out, some may not. The fact remains that all the teams you mentioned came back, so while some of the situations may be serious, they're not as serious as those for franchises which have actually folded. If you're going to take this road, let's look at how af2 compares to the NIFL, the original comparison of this thread. How does af2 franchise stability compare to that of the NIFL? To be fair, let's look at the same criteria - returning franchises and trouble spots.

[sportsguy]

Huntsville may or may not be a good move-depends if the fans will support an awful expansion team or not.

Don't think Huntsville will be "awful." The head coach, Chris Williams, was in Odessa last year, went 16-1, and trust me, knows his stuff. He'll be AFL in a few years.

[BlazedWarrior]

I just want to say I enjoyed the NIFL and indoor game over the AFL product we have now.

[fwp]

I miss the Warriors!

I enjoy the NIFL game much more than the arena game myself. If this league ever gets the off field issues running smoothly, I think the game would really take off!

[UNLogger]

I am new to the forum as this is my first message, so don't rip me to hard. lol I am not new to being a fan of Arena/indoor football. I have followed the AFL since its inception and love the game. I am a season ticket holder for the Everett Hawks last year and again this year. I have seen both Arena games and indoor games. There are aspects I like of both games. I love the nets and the play off the nets in the Arena game. It is what makes the game work inside in my personal opinion. However, I liked having multiple players in motion in the indoor game. Someone else made the statement that they liked the indoor game because it was more like "real" football. Well, I love 11 man football. I have played and coached the outdoor game on both the small college and high school level and continue to coach. However, one of the reasons I love the Arena game is because it isn't like real football in significant aspects.

As far as the business side of things, I have no real insight into what goes on behind the scenes. I know that all these leagues will and have had growing pains and shady characters. Sam Adams (owner of the Hawks) has not struck me that way. I also figure that the Af2 might have a bit of an advantage because the AFL is a continuing, growing success and just being able to latch onto that name you would think would give them some legitimacy.

I am not sure what the overall point to my post is to be honest. I just find the whole business of arena/indoor football fascinating as a fan, etc. and I love the insight that I have found here.

UNLogger

[Jennie]

I am a newbie also, don't rip me too bad. We are excited about our Spokane Shock, from the very 1st game! Almost 10,000 came to see them for game 1. Then we had 2 sell-out games w/standing room tickets also. On Saturday, on Memorial Weekend, it wasn't a sell-out, but there was 10,158 announced crowd. Tail gaiting has started in the late afternoon. Other football pro teams haven't caught on here until The Shock! It was perfect timing. March Madness was over, so no more Gonzaga Bball...nothing was going on...until The Shock! Driving to the Spokane Arena, passing a bus stop with guys in orange Shock T-shirts waiting for the bus to take them to the game...guys in orange coveralls wearing white hard hats with an lightning bolt attached to the front of the hats running around...the Shock is the buzz around town!

[Pounder]

Meanwhile, while congrats have to go out to the Hawks for finally winning a game this weekend...

...there's apparently been a run on "empty green seat costumes" at the Hawks' store. The last two games have been shown on Fox Sports Northwest, and let's just say that the attendance number for Saturday (3,269) was quite optimistic.

[DestroyersFan]

Meanwhile, while congrats have to go out to the Hawks for finally winning a game this weekend...

...there's apparently been a run on "empty green seat costumes" at the Hawks' store. The last two games have been shown on Fox Sports Northwest, and let's just say that the attendance number for Saturday (3,269) was quite optimistic.

I think that has more to do with the team being 0-7 coming into the game than the game being brodcast on TV.

As for the TV aspect, I'm from Ohio and the Hawks are now my favorite af2 team. I'd have drive 200 miles to Louisville to see af2 games if it weren't for the Hawks being on the dish. Youngstown will get a team next year but that's still 170 miles from where I live. So as long as the Hawks are on TV, they are my team. It's kind of like the Braves in the early 80's. They sucked, but they were the only team regularly on TV if you had cable, so the Braves had fans all over the country.

[Bruce B]

How can there even be a question as to whether af2 is a more solvent league than the NIFL? Pounder nailed it when he spoke to the reason why franchise fees are so high in af2: It's a great way to weed out the posers. I've been reading Jerry's column and this message board for a few weeks, and if there was ever going to be a movie made about the NIFL, the only people qualified to direct it would be Clive Barker or John Carpenter. I feel bad for the players and fans, because the fact that the NIFL is a horribly run league is not their fault.

Everett had their share of problems off the field last year, so it's not surprising that things haven't gone smoothly this time around. It's not enough to be a well-paid NFL player if you want to run a team. You have to know what to do on the business end of things, or at the very least be willing to hire capable people and then stay the hell out of the way and let them do their jobs.

Is the NIFL a better brand of football than af2? I'll leave that one to people who've watched both, although in the end it's a matter of personal preference anyway. I have to admit it's a lot more entertaining to read about the kind of shenanigans that go on in the NIFL...the whole league could take up an entire sweeps month on Jerry Springer or Maury Povich.