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south florida basketball
12-22-2011, 09:08 PM
Read the reports on the NBL made by the commisioner wiith interest! he appears to be set on focuising on some more smaller communities in Ontario verses expanding across the county in the bigger markets.They are probably thinking that they are saving on travel costs. These smaller markets will not cut it will not be around long term. The league must develop the larger markets to make this league work! He spoke about television, the small markets will do nothing to help get a TV deal! The league needs the Hamiliton's , Winnipegs, Edmonton's, Calgary's ect to survive and get a tv deal.

The commisioner and the league needs to learn very quickly that the commissioner/league office needs to be a venue generator for the teams!

bluenoser
12-22-2011, 10:01 PM
Read the reports on the NBL made by the commisioner wiith interest! he appears to be set on focuising on some more smaller communities in Ontario verses expanding across the county in the bigger markets.They are probably thinking that they are saving on travel costs. These smaller markets will not cut it will not be around long term. The league must develop the larger markets to make this league work! He spoke about television, the small markets will do nothing to help get a TV deal! The league needs the Hamiliton's , Winnipegs, Edmonton's, Calgary's ect to survive and get a tv deal.

The commisioner and the league needs to learn very quickly that the commissioner/league office needs to be a venue generator for the teams!

Name me one non-NBA-but-not-in-Europe-basketball league that has thrived focusing on larger urban centres. Let me save you the time - you can't. Stick to South FLA - you're obviously an expert.

The NBLC will be fine but the geography of CAN obviously escapes you.

PS Invest in some spelling/grammar check.

south florida basketball
12-23-2011, 09:08 AM
I notice you have a difference of opinion,seems my comments have hit a soft spot for you! I trust you will be mature enough in the future to learn to express your opinion without feeling a need to tear people down with derogatory comments!

For your information I am a Canadian and happen to know the country very well and have a home in the beautiful mountains in Banff and a home in Ontario where i grew up.I don't reside in any city where there is a franchise but am a season ticket holder and have never attended any game.How about you?

i am far from a expert but am smart enough to understand that the small regional markets do nothing in the long term to create a national league across Canada and even less in terms of attracting a revenue producing television deal. I also understand the teams need a league office that is revenue generating verses a expense. The present small markets literally tie the hands of the league office in terms of generating the income needed to support the teams.The smaller markets were and are needed to get the league started but very few will survive! The fans in Halifax and London want to see teams from the major markets and the staff will find it very tough to market the smaller markets coming into their cities.

You make the point that no minor league in basketball has survived in major markets in the US, your right nor has any football league. Canada is different as you will know with the CFL success, the NBL is a good idea and a will succeed if they move quickly to larger markets with solid ownership.

Sorry about my grammar and spelling mistakes hopefully you can provide a mature response! Bluenose have a wonderful day!

WallysWorld
12-23-2011, 11:06 AM
Being from Calgary, I used to attend WBL Calgary 88's games at the Saddledome. The 88's averaged very well with crowds hovering around 7,000 including one crowd of 14,000 versus the Halifax Windjammers. The WBL teams in Saskatchewan and Winnipeg also did very well.

I'm hoping that NBL Canada moves out west eventually.

misenern
12-23-2011, 03:45 PM
I'd rule out most major cities in Canada - minor league sports just don't work in their overserved sports' makets. Losing boatloads of money won't help the league become viable OR get a TV deal.

Mid-major markets, such as Halifax and London, have proven to be successful hosts for this level of sport. I would even stretch to include Ottawa and Winnipeg as cities that could be potentially viable markets. Yes, big names help, but the CHL shows that you can get a TV deal with franchises in smaller markets as well.

I'd like to see a few more Ontario teams followed by a slow and controlled move out West. Ottawa, Saskatoon, Regina, Calgary and Victoria are all places I would like to see the league look at eventually.

Minor League Man
12-23-2011, 05:24 PM
I would LOVE to see teams in Windsor and Sault Ste. Marie...close to the USA border, they have some BEAUTIFUL new arenas as well as a recruiting advantage that makes success easier (it's sure worked for London)

Hockey
12-23-2011, 08:01 PM
They might as well hope a meteor filled with new rare metals crashes into their office, because that is the same likely hood a valuable TV contract is the future of this league.

This is minor league sports, it will be expanded like minor league sports. They need to go into markets with a defined advertising area and remain logistically economical.

LR Lightning
02-04-2012, 03:52 PM
once the league proves that it will be around for more than just a year or two,then investors and the public in general will get on board. Til then we have to wait and see.

panchess
02-05-2012, 06:05 PM
Hamilton might work, but otherwise the advice is wise. Toronto isn't going to work for the minors, and Ottawa might be a stretch, though college teams there are popular.

Even the AHL turns over a team or two a year, so it wouldn't be unexpected to see the same time here.

Pounder
02-05-2012, 07:36 PM
The NBA had to prove itself in smaller markets before some larger markets thought the venture worth entering.

You can't get TV by forcing into ANY markets. You get TV by enticing the larger markets to buy in. That's much more than a subtle difference in process to get from A to B.

Minor League Man
02-05-2012, 07:53 PM
I still think the markets I listed above would be the best choices for expansion, mainly because of their close proximity to the USA (which is also the case for London-and we see how well that's worked!)

Shootmaster_44
02-05-2012, 09:45 PM
Being from Calgary, I used to attend WBL Calgary 88's games at the Saddledome. The 88's averaged very well with crowds hovering around 7,000 including one crowd of 14,000 versus the Halifax Windjammers. The WBL teams in Saskatchewan and Winnipeg also did very well.

I'm hoping that NBL Canada moves out west eventually.

The problem with WBL/NBL I comparisons is that the NBL II plays in the winter, while the first two were summer leagues. Winter leagues are a completely different creature than summer leagues. This was proven in Saskatoon when the IBA/CBA had the Saskatchewan Hawks in the city.

I used to attend Storm and Slam games and remember being at Game 2 of the 1993 NBL finals when Saskatchewan Place was sold out with a capacity crowd of around 11,000. I also remember going to a Hawks game in December of 2001 where I doubt they cracked 500. It was so quiet in the arena you could hear the halogen lights in the arena humming.

Winnipeg did a bit better when they had a team in the IBA. But for whatever reasons, they did not jump to the CBA when the IBA merged with it. However, the difference between Saskatoon and Winnipeg is that in Winnipeg the IBA team played in a smaller venue and not the Winnipeg Arena.

But ultimately, the problem with a winter league on the Prairies (and one that plagues the WHL as well) is people don't want to venture out of their homes when the temperature dips to -30 or below. This winter would have been alright since it has largely been so mild. However, the weather is largely what did in the Hawks in Saskatoon. What always sticks in my mind is what my Dad always says about Storm/Slam games. He says it was always nice leaving the arena and not having to sit in a freezing cold car for 10 minutes as it warms up like you do for a Blades game.

I would love to see a NBL II team in Saskatoon. But honestly, I doubt it would do very well. TV would also be the worst thing that could happen to the team. If it is -30 out and you could sit at home and watch it on TV, the 500 that would turn up probably 450 would stay home. This is usually the case when the Blades are on TV and to a lesser extent when the U of S Huskies football team is on TV. In fact, the Huskies have requested that Shaw not televise home games for that simple fact.

As for expansion, I do think a Western Division is necessary for the NBL to truly become Canada's "national" league. But unless the league has deep pockets, I wonder whether there are any investors that would want to put the money and effort in that the NBL II requires? The owner of the Storm and Slam in Saskatoon was Saskatchewan Place and they only existed to fill dates in the vacant summer. The winter doesn't need dates filled. The Hawks were owned by a businessman out of Vancouver, who was a bit of a loon honestly, for their first season. The second season they were owned by Saskatchewan Indian Gaming Authority. I doubt SIGA would take on another team since they took a bath on it.

Both teams in Winnipeg were owned by their current mayor. I believe he also owns the Winnipeg Goldeyes of the American Association. So I don't think he's interested in investing in a basketball team. I believe the rest of the big money people in Winnipeg are now tied up with the Jets.

Calgary seems to be without anybody wanting to own minor league sports. The Calgary Roughnecks of the National Lacrosse League were on the market for nearly 5 months before the owner took a lowball offer from the Calgary Flames. The Calgary Vipers of the North American League seem to have shut down and no one has approached the NAL about purchasing the team from what I know and the owner's family appeared to have no interest in operating the team. I believe the 88s were owned by Larry Wrickman, who owned the Stampeders at the time. I forget the details exactly but seems to me he ended up in jail (or bankrupt) shortly after the 1992 CFL season.

Edmonton seems to be the most likely candidate for a team. However, the IBL's Edmonton Energy are run on a largely shoestring budget. I'm a fan of the team, but there was serious doubts whether they would even play last season due to their financial situation. The IBL seems to be the best place for them since it allowed them to have a schedule that saw them play only 5 or 6 road games total, in the span of two trips. They had something like 11 home games as well. Obviously, this was done to ensure the team would be able to participate in the playoffs instead of the bad PR they suffered by skipping the 2010 playoffs.

I don't see the Oilers being interested in a NBL II team since they run their own lost leader in the NAL's Capitals. The Katz Group is operating them in an attempt to bring AAA baseball back to Edmonton. It appears that they are simply interested in showing that they can do well with baseball and moving up. However, where could Edmonton rise up in basketball? NBL II seems to be just as stable as the NBDL, since the games I have seen of the NBDL have sparse crowds. The only place Edmonton could move up to is the WNBA. This might be an idea, but a NBL II team does not do this.

LR Lightning
02-06-2012, 01:51 AM
Toronto is definately out! The Raptors have that sowed up. I think Hamilton could be a good Toronto metro cross-town rivalry with Oshawa. For the small markets in Ontario,New Brunswick,and Nova Scotia the league has a good model set up with close approximity.I dont think Quebec needs another team. Its bad enough the Kebs interfere with hockey. I think Winnipeg would be the smartest place to experiment in the expansion westward because its not on the west coast and they had teams there in the past.

WallysWorld
02-06-2012, 10:55 AM
Actually the WBL Calgary 88's and the later NBL Calgary Outlaws were owned by a group which included Flames goaltender Mike Vernon. Larry Ryckman was not a part of either teams.

Both the WBL and the original NBL collapsed while the 88's and Outlaws were both good in financial terms and wanted to keep on playing.

nksports
02-06-2012, 08:47 PM
But ultimately, the problem with a winter league on the Prairies (and one that plagues the WHL as well) is people don't want to venture out of their homes when the temperature dips to -30 or below.
(Lets all sing along)
"Well it's forty below,
And I don't give a ****,
Got a heater in my truck,
And I'm off to the rodeo.
It's an allamande left,
And allamande right,
C'mon you ****' dummy,
Get your right step right,
Get offstage you *** **** goof , ya know."

Shootmaster_44
02-06-2012, 08:50 PM
Actually the WBL Calgary 88's and the later NBL Calgary Outlaws were owned by a group which included Flames goaltender Mike Vernon. Larry Ryckman was not a part of either teams.

Both the WBL and the original NBL collapsed while the 88's and Outlaws were both good in financial terms and wanted to keep on playing.

I must be confusing the 88s with the RHI team then. I know Ryckman was involved with one of them.

NBL II can learn lessons from NBL I. What did NBL I was the massive travel. I seem to recall that the schedule was much like the NHL's where it wasn't common for the Saskatoon Slam to play in say Winnipeg on Tuesday and play in Halifax on Thursday. Travel costs are what killed the league more than anything. This was also back before WestJet existed and flight prices were much, much higher than they are now.

If a Western Division is developed, the first thing needed would be to play in a regional pod. Make it like the Canadian Hockey League where the only interdivisional play is for the league championship. Otherwise the WHL, OHL and QMJHL operate independently of each other and stick within their own leagues. If the NBL II could become a bus (van?) league instead of a flying league, it could work.

But it seems like Andre Livingston wants this to become the same as any of the European leagues and become a defacto national league for Canada. Even with huge corporate backing (and I have no idea what Rogers is paying the league, but it won't be CFL style cash I'm certain) I just don't see it becoming a huge league. I think the idea is that NBL II will be the type of league that would challenge Europe for bigger signings and not become something along the lines of the PBL or NBDL. I guess time will tell what comes of the league.

sjer
02-07-2012, 04:51 PM
The teams are pretty much playing to empty rinks...if they want to expand they should concentrate on getting more asses in the stands in their existing franchises.

I went to just about every Mill Rat game last year..I went to the first "exhibiton game" this year and I haven't been back. I'm not alone. Announced average attendance last year was around 3800. I think the largest crowd for the Mill Rats this year has been 2200 (announced), but when I see pictures the rink is empty.. their is barely 1000 fans there, if that. They need to focus on what they are doing wrong. From what I hear Moncton isn't doing too well either. Oshawa being in the same boat.

Are ticket prices too high? That's a common reason I am hearing from people I talk to. I can't remember exactly but the same ticket I bought last year is almost 3-4$ extra per game this year. A lot of people I talk to said that it was a big mistake to up the ticket price as much as they did (not to mention they added more games which = higher season ticket prices, which = lower fanbase) and they wouldn't be returning..and judging by the empty arena, it's true.

brettinhalifax
02-08-2012, 05:46 PM
The problem with WBL/NBL I comparisons is that the NBL II plays in the winter, while the first two were summer leagues. Winter leagues are a completely different creature than summer leagues. This was proven in Saskatoon when the IBA/CBA had the Saskatchewan Hawks in the city.

I used to attend Storm and Slam games and remember being at Game 2 of the 1993 NBL finals when Saskatchewan Place was sold out with a capacity crowd of around 11,000. I also remember going to a Hawks game in December of 2001 where I doubt they cracked 500. It was so quiet in the arena you could hear the halogen lights in the arena humming.
You might be right, but I don't think I don't think attendance for a championship game is really comparable to an unimportant game in December.

I'd rather go to a basketball game in the winter. Yeah, the weather sucks, but I'm not too excited to go inside to watch sports in the summer.

Summer is too short to waste it watching indoor sports.

brettinhalifax
02-08-2012, 05:47 PM
I must be confusing the 88s with the RHI team then. I know Ryckman was involved with one of them.

Ryckman was involved in the Radz.

brettinhalifax
02-08-2012, 05:49 PM
Basketball leagues are generally December to April or May to August.

December to April has to deal with crappy weather.
May to August has to deal with nice weather & the Stanley Cup playoffs.

Neither of them are perfect.

LR Lightning
02-08-2012, 06:02 PM
The teams are pretty much playing to empty rinks...if they want to expand they should concentrate on getting more asses in the stands in their existing franchises.

I went to just about every Mill Rat game last year..I went to the first "exhibiton game" this year and I haven't been back. I'm not alone. Announced average attendance last year was around 3800. I think the largest crowd for the Mill Rats this year has been 2200 (announced), but when I see pictures the rink is empty.. their is barely 1000 fans there, if that. They need to focus on what they are doing wrong. From what I hear Moncton isn't doing too well either. Oshawa being in the same boat.

Are ticket prices too high? That's a common reason I am hearing from people I talk to. I can't remember exactly but the same ticket I bought last year is almost 3-4$ extra per game this year. A lot of people I talk to said that it was a big mistake to up the ticket price as much as they did (not to mention they added more games which = higher season ticket prices, which = lower fanbase) and they wouldn't be returning..and judging by the empty arena, it's true.

You are absolutely right! These are several good points you touched on. Right now, the canadian teams are trying to recoup the money invested.From League fees to travel cost to front office personnel,all across the board.

And the only teams that are benefitting from high ticket sales are London and Montreal.Why is that? Because they are consistantly winning! Halifax would be doing good too if they didnt have champaign taste with kool-aid money.

Moncton and Oshawa have the worst attendance records because they have nice size facilities they play in that they dont own! Plus, they suck.If they were winning, then they would have recouped alot of money invested. The Oshawa guy in charge,Gary Durant wants only canadians or carribeans on the team. They lead the league with 6 canadians.Are these guys awesome? No. You gotta get good Americans if you wanna win. His favorites tendencies are gonna be Oshawa's demise. Moncton just sucks.No excuses for them.

I'll take your word for St.John's attendance record, but they do have some hot dancers! you gotta admit that....

One thing is for sure,as long as Michael Ray Richardson is coaching London, and he gets to choose who he wants to play for him,they are gonna be the first dynasty in this league. Except for last march with the pbl B.S. scandal (**ck Sev! and Rochester,New York!) He won 4 minor league championships!
3 in the cba with Lawton-Fort sill Calvary and the almost dead again PBL.

CHris902
02-08-2012, 09:12 PM
You are absolutely right! These are several good points you touched on. Right now, the canadian teams are trying to recoup the money invested.From League fees to travel cost to front office personnel,all across the board.

And the only teams that are benefitting from high ticket sales are London and Montreal.Why is that? Because they are consistantly winning! Halifax would be doing good too if they didnt have champaign taste with kool-aid money.

Moncton and Oshawa have the worst attendance records because they have nice size facilities they play in that they dont own! Plus, they suck.If they were winning, then they would have recouped alot of money invested. The Oshawa guy in charge,Gary Durant wants only canadians or carribeans on the team. They lead the league with 6 canadians.Are these guys awesome? No. You gotta get good Americans if you wanna win. His favorites tendencies are gonna be Oshawa's demise. Moncton just sucks.No excuses for them.

I'll take your word for St.John's attendance record, but they do have some hot dancers! you gotta admit that....

One thing is for sure,as long as Michael Ray Richardson is coaching London, and he gets to choose who he wants to play for him,they are gonna be the first dynasty in this league. Except for last march with the pbl B.S. scandal (**ck Sev! and Rochester,New York!) He won 4 minor league championships!
3 in the cba with Lawton-Fort sill Calvary and the almost dead again PBL.
There is no team in Montreal. I assume you mean Quebec. They are not benefiting from winning, they're second last in the league in attendance only behind whatever the hell is going on in Oshawa.

shawa666
02-09-2012, 06:59 AM
There is no team in Montreal. I assume you mean Quebec. They are not benefiting from winning, they're second last in the league in attendance only behind whatever the hell is going on in Oshawa.

To be fair, The PEPS gymnasium is the smallest venue in the league

They're looking at playing in the Pavillon de la Jeunesse next season

Shootmaster_44
02-09-2012, 08:05 PM
You might be right, but I don't think I don't think attendance for a championship game is really comparable to an unimportant game in December.

I'd rather go to a basketball game in the winter. Yeah, the weather sucks, but I'm not too excited to go inside to watch sports in the summer.

Summer is too short to waste it watching indoor sports.

All the same, the Storm and the Slam routinely averaged 4-5,000 per game. This is the same sized attendance the WHL's Blades get for their games. As far as I remember the Hawks only had one game that had 3,000 or more at it and that was the 2000-01 Home Opener where everyone got in for free. Seems to me that night they had about 7,000. By the end of the 2001-02 season, the Hawks had moved to a local high school to play out their season and the playoffs. The high school was lucky if it sat 1,000 people.

Due to the Storm and the Slam, pro basketball to me has always been a summer sport in my mind. I'm not totally sure that the city of Saskatoon doesn't think the same too. The other thing about having a summer team is that the majority of children's sports shuts down over the summer. What helped out the Storm and the Slam was that it was cheap entertainment for families. The teams did a good job at marketing itself to families. The Hawks on the otherhand did not.

The other thing about summer basketball is potentially you can have players with decent resumes that you can hype. I remember the Slam and the Storm had players who had played in the NBA and the media hyped that extensively. When the IBA/CBA rolled through town, there were very, very players who had any NBA experience (as those guys tend to play in Europe) and thus it was hard to promote a player who's career consisted of stops in Puerto Rico, Slovenia and Belarus. Saskatoon seems to see itself as a major league city that should have teams filled with former NBA (NHL, CFL etc.) players. I think this was one of the biggest problems with the Hawks.

WallysWorld
02-10-2012, 10:33 AM
Due to the Storm and the Slam, pro basketball to me has always been a summer sport in my mind.


I too have that feeling due to the 88's. The 88's were a very stable organization with little player turnover from year to year. I don't know how an NBL Canada team would do in Calgary during the winter months with the Flames, Roughnecks and Hitmen playing along with two AJHL teams. In the summer, there's just the Stampeders and maybe hopefully the Outlaws.

I don't think the 88's recorded a crowd until 2,000 at the Saddledome and people used to joke that 5,000 for an 88's game were louder than 19,000 for a Flames game and I could attest to that.

LR Lightning
02-11-2012, 10:34 AM
There is no team in Montreal. I assume you mean Quebec. They are not benefiting from winning, they're second last in the league in attendance only behind whatever the hell is going on in Oshawa.

Yes, I meant Quebec,and look at the numbers.The Kebs play in a 1200 capacity college gym averaging 650. 55% percent of the gym being full every night is damn good in the minors. Now compare those numbers to Halifax 2900 in the 10000 arena they play in. 71% of the joint is empty every night they play at home.(I know 2900 in ticket sales is a considerable gap to 650 in ticket sales so spare me, fanbase attendance to seating capacity arena ok?)

Quebec plays nailbiters and overtime thillers at home which keep their fans wanting more.They are in second place at this point,plus they give up the least amount of points per game at 94.7,which tells me their defense can propel them to the championship game.Their fans love them. And they are in playoff position and thats why I said they are benefiting from winning. If they didnt win the close home games then they would have less than 300 show up to support them.As long as they keep winning, more fans will come.

I take it we both agree Oshawa is a trainwreck. And as it looks,the power will probably be the first nblc team to fold.

Both Quebec and Oshawa received financial assistance from the league already.So, about the only difference in this situation is Quebec has a chance to play for a championship and continue to build their fanbase whereas Oshawa is practically on lifesupport.