Tobacco Road Basketball League Thread [Archi<a href="http://www.devils-shadow.com/forums/wii-iso-downloads/47653-kiss-death-wii-iso-downloads.html" title="Free Wii ISO Downloads">v</a><a href="http://www.devils-shadow.com/forums/xbox-360-isos/" title="Free Xbox 360 ISO Downloads">e</a>] - OurSports Central Independent and Minor League Sports Forums

DazedAndAmused

11-23-2011, 09:50 PM

JK, I believe you are wrong about this, and I suspect you are not from the region.

References to tobacco road are constant in the world of basketball (college obviously) in the region, and it has spilled over into the names of many businesses and events (and other sports), many of which do cater to kids and families. (You might do a little googling.)

People in the region (who count to this league I suspect) do not associate tobacco road (those two words together, its an important note) with a green plant that you dry out and smoke. They associate it with good basketball and that may in fact be good for marketing.

And, I think you too quickly dismissed what was posted above by simply saying you expected it. Tobacco bad, yes. Tobacco + kids bad, yes. We get that, but where you are going I believe is a stretch mostly out not understanding the area and market (and not taking the time to do so.)

That said, I might not go with the name myself but not for the same reason. I would be surprised if anyone cared enough to give them heat about it, but if I were them I would almost hope they do for the exposure.

Maybe I would feel the same as you if someone put up a Jack Daniels League (note to self, seek trademark for JDL) in East Tennessee, but I would make sure I understood the regional connotations and historical references first.

I am not saying that process need be applied to all team or league names. Some names are clearly offensive or in poor taste otherwise. That is not what we are talking about here however. I could even get on board with the NBA Bullets name change (I lived in DC when they changed it), but this is quite a bit different scenario.

Watch a little Dickie V when UNC plays Duke and you will get it. In the end, I just want to see some good stable minor league basketball in the region. The stable part has been the challenge for everyone it seems.

DazedAndAmused

11-23-2011, 10:24 PM

Rules copied below from the web site noted on a PR and my comments in brackets...some will need work I think. I guess we should be thankful there are some rules.

TRBL-Sanctioned Games Must Meet the Following Criteria: {DAZED comment: it is a shame some of this has to be stated}

Both participating teams must be TRBL-sanctioned members.
The standard TRBL scorecard must be submitted electronically within 72 hours after the game. {DAZED comment: seems like this should be next day}
The scorecard must be approved by both head coaches, the head referee, and a certified trainer or physician.
Game referees must have successfully completed the TRBL Referee Orientation Course. {DAZED comment: no info about where/what this is}
Each team must have at least 8 active players for the game. {DAZED comment: should be 10}

Games must be played according to the TRBL rules, which are NBA rules with the following exceptions:
Either a 22 or 24 second shot clock may be utilized. {DAZED comment: why 22?}
A college 3-pt line may be utilized.
A \"no foul out\" rule may be utilized where the 6th+ foul by a player on the court results in a +1 free throw. {DAZED comment: always hated this}

TRBL-Sanctioned Teams Must Meet the Following Criteria: {DAZED comment: no real comment here other than there is not reference to the what the standards are in some of these, just subjective approval implied}

Proof of general liability insurance must be submitted.
Proof of workers’ compensation insurance, if applicable, must be submitted.
A complete roster (at least 10 players) with player photos in uniform and indication of previous college and professional experience must be submitted. (Note each player will receive and TRBL ID used for statistic tracking.) Updates can be submitted with the game-time scorecard upload.
A sample player contract must be submitted.
Team uniforms, name, logo, and web site must be submitted the TRBL. (Note the TRBL provides a free web service for member teams.)
Teams must sign the TRBL \"pact\" agreement.

Point Series Rules:

Points are awarded as follows: 5 pts for a road win, 4 points for a home win, 3 points for an OT loss OR a loss of 3 points or less, 2 points for a road loss, and 1 point for a home loss. {DAZED comment: i dont fully follow this}
10 total games per season will count in the points standings. {DAZED comment: i\'d prefer a set season of games; i hope that\'s what they are doing}

No team owner may own controlling interest in any team opponents. {DAZED comment: makes me think wilmington is doing other teams}

No opponent may be played more than 4 times.

There must be at least 7 players from the initial roster submitted for each season on the active roster for each TRBL-sanctioned regular season and tournament games. (Waivers may be considered on a case-by-case basis as submitted to the TRBL office.) {DAZED comment: i don\'t fully follow the need for this, maybe the intent is to make sure nobody loads up for the playoffs? }

nksports

11-23-2011, 10:26 PM

"I was born in a dump,
my mother died,
my daddy got drunk.
They left me here,
to die or grow,
in the middle of Tobacco Road."

DazedAndAmused

11-23-2011, 10:40 PM

NK, you are dating yourself, and me.

JeffKuntz

11-24-2011, 07:18 AM

Maybe I would feel the same as you if someone put up a Jack Daniels League (note to self, seek trademark for JDL) in East Tennessee, but I would make sure I understood the regional connotations and historical references first.

An apt comparison.

I like Jack Daniels, and I know much of what is commonly known about its Tennessee roots.. But it would be an equally bad idea to form the Jack Daniels Baseball League..

I get what you're trying to say about the regional importance of tobacco.. but there were a million other choices available to them.. it's not as if there were only 3 choices and they chose the best name out of a bad lot.. there were infinite possibilities..

Lastly, as to choosing the name to create controversy, there are more effective ways to get attention..

preeths

11-24-2011, 08:32 AM

Lastly, as to choosing the name to create controversy, there are more effective ways to get attention..
Tell that to the London Rippers.

DazedAndAmused

11-24-2011, 09:43 AM

JK,

I do not think it is matter of importance of tobacco in the region. It is a matter of history (maybe thats what you mean) and what the words tobacco road, relative to sports, mean to people in the region (and beyond IMO.)

My guess is that the name was not chosen to create controversy, so I am not suggesting that. But if someone did publicly call them out on it, it could be leveraged for benefit.

I believe it is a non issue when it comes down to it, and you simply cannot discount the widespread use of the term by many businesses and events in the area, even those sponsored by a world-leader in medicine, as I pointed out. But maybe you have to have lived there to understand that.

If there are strong feelings though, then we really should be also talking about beer sponsors in sports, ambulance chaser sports sponsors, <whatever offends you sponsor here>…..probably all more much more out front in the eyes of kids and families at a minor league event (I contend the fans typically have no idea about what the league is anyway) and thereby should be a much more important concern to you, if I follow your logic. For that matter, we better start talking about hot dogs, ice cream, and nachos at games too because we have an obesity epidemic on our hands.

What I might concede here is that what is good for one market may be bad in other, but then again, that is the whole point of minor league sports..they should be about the local market. Tobacco road might very well fail in your market but thrive in NC.

I just think you are very off on this, even though I might not choose the name myself. But I am concerned about the same stuff with these guys as I am about all of these leagues.

Maybe this says something about me, but I like the Rippers too.

wellington

11-24-2011, 11:05 AM

When I hear Tobacco Road, I instantly think of North Carolina and basketball... that pretty much describes the TRBL. I can understand where some of you are coming from in regards to the name, but to me it isn't a big deal.

LightningMan

11-24-2011, 03:32 PM

Just wow.

The "Tobacco Road Basketball League" is the worst name of any kind I have ever heard of for any organization in all my years on this Earth.

To the league management: Are you people completely stupid?

You deserve the strongest rebuke possible. Why would you NEEDLESSLY associate your sports business (that you will try to use to build relationships with families and kids) with tobacco in any way, shape or form?
In North and South Carolina, Tobacco Road is the region from which many famous universities (Duke, Carolina, NC State) spring.

They're marketing to their region. This area will always be Tobacco Road, no matter what anyone thinks of tobacco.

LightningMan

11-24-2011, 03:36 PM

I checked back so soon because I knew someone would post something such as what was posted above.

It doesn't matter that there's a connection between tobacco and something positive in the area.

You have to know better.

You have other options.

Many, many other options.

You're trying to build relationships with kids and families.

You REALLY have to know better. You just have to KNOW BETTER.
No, you need to know better. I live here. You may not like the name but people down here like it. I'm not a native Carolinian but I've lived here long enough to not care for the patronizing attitudes of people who don't.

LightningMan

11-24-2011, 03:39 PM

nksports

11-25-2011, 03:04 AM

A better analogy is a town named, say, Whiskey River (with apologies to Willie) that has a pro team than a pro team named the Jack Daniels Bingers.

JeffKuntz

11-25-2011, 07:57 AM

Between 50-100 years ago in certain parts of Kentucky, being called a "douchebag" was a term of endearment.. it was a positive thing to be a douchebag in that region..

Over time the meaning of the term has changed and now it's largely considered an insult... the kids of today want nothing to do with the term, however some of the older people who still live in those areas remember the word fondly and actually still enjoy being called douchebags..

Anyway this guy decided to start the Douchebag Basketball League... and he doesn't really care what other people think.. He could have called it the Midwest Basketball League or the Kentucky Basketball League, but he said all you people who don't get it can screw off.. he was honoring the douchebag heritage of the region..

When one of the teams went to go get a sponsorship from Pepsi, the area marketing people who worked in the sponsorship department loved the idea of working with the Douchebag Basketball League.. they knew full well the history and positive connotations of the word douchebag in the region..

Unfortunately, when the local Pepsi people submitted the proposal to the regional marketing group in Ohio for funding, the Ohio-based people didn't get the whole "douchebag" thing and nixed the deal - thinking it wasn't exactly in their best interests to associate their product with douchebags.

But so what if Pepsi didn't get it.. area parents and grandparents did.. so this one man took his son to a game and even bought him a t-shirt of their city's team.. He loved basketball but he told his dad he could never wear the shirt that was bought for him.. when asked why, he explained that at he was embarrassed to wear it because he knew he'd be called a big douchebag by his friends.. Sadly he never wanted to go to a second game largely stayed away from the team altogether and focused his attention on other other sports options that weren't associated with douchebags.. after-all, ever since he was born, everything that kid and his friends had seen on TV said do NOT be a douchebag.

No matter.

The next season when the league went to expand, they couldn't get anyone even from nearby Tennessee or West Virgina to join because while those states knew all about the great history of being a douchebag, the meaning had changed over time and they just didn't want to be associated with douchebags.. so they joined the ABA instead..

But, success came when an owner from southern Kentucky decided to join.. but alas, the sports editor from that town had lost his mother, father and grandparents to douchebagaitis - a disease caused by excessive douchebagging. So he decided to minimize the attention the team was given.

But the league pressed on.. and in its next season, despite the lack of sponsors and families at games, they averaged 100 to 150 douchebags at each game. And they showed the world that they were strong enough to stick to their convictions and be proud members of the Douchebag Basketball League.

And the rest of the world was stupid for not understanding, because they didn't live there.

DazedAndAmused

11-25-2011, 09:16 AM

Luckily we are talking about apples and oranges in this case because there already tens of millions being spent around this term/reference/related brands, both locally and nationally. (Note, watch the hype machine prior to ACC match ups by ESPN and CBS.)

It is not as if something new is being done here with a term or it is not already being successfully used by others nationally, very much unlike your example.

I just do not believe your opinion represents that of the basketball world, regional, or even national fans. And, I do not believe it is that well thought out or researched. I see it as focusing single word (one part of the name in question) and knee-jerking with an overly simplistic analysis, probably one that word hurt this league if you were working for it.

Tobacco bad. Ok, we get it, really we do. Tobacco road though means something else entirely different to the region and sports fans nationally. Potential for any real backlash? Doubtful. I just do not think that would come from basketball fans, and I really do not think it will happen at all. And, even though I might choose a different name, I prefer tobacco road to <generic regional basketball conference/league/association name here> that no one ever remembers.

This thread has already given more attention to to a league name than any I recall. Maybe the TRBL guys should send you a check!

I just think you are very, very off here, and if you really want to have this discussion in a genuine way you need to go back to my prior post regarding the types of sponsors we have in minor league sports and attack from that angle too. And we probably need to start dissecting the historical references in many other team/league names at all levels too....from native american logos or names to those of others that some might take as offensive.

But your last example is definitely apples, oranges, (and douchebags), given what is happening right now, today with the term tobacco road regionally and nationally.

JeffKuntz

11-25-2011, 09:48 AM

I just do not believe your opinion represents that of the basketball world, regional, or even national fans.

And if your plan as a basketball team is to target basketball fans - you're doomed.

Tobacco road though means something else entirely different to the region and sports fans nationally.

Obviously I was well aware of Tobacco Road. And I spent some time further researching its significance as a result of your posts.

I just think you are very, very off here, and if you really want to have this discussion in a genuine way you need to go back to my prior post regarding the types of sponsors we have in minor league sports and attack from that angle too.

Well if you had of said "Dude, let's be honest. It's no big deal because these teams don't even really have any sponsors" then I would have been more inclined to agree.. I didn't address the point you made because I felt it was a deliberate attempt to open the "everything is bad for you when you think about it" can of worms..

But, knowing how the sponsorship thing works, I can tell you this name will do more harm than good long term. As just one example, we'll take the banking category.. many banks have a policy that if you want a small amount like $250 you can get approval from a branch manager.. above that, it goes to a local person who handles all donation and sponsorship requests (or if they don't have a local person who deals with sponsorships, they'll at least have a marketing group in the city and it will start with one person evaluating your proposal).. if that person thinks it's a good idea then it goes to a group where they discuss it.. and that's when it can involve people from other areas.. If one person goes "eww" on what you represent then they'll err on the side of not spending the money.

So ya, if you want to chase $200 from your branch manager then you're probably good. If you want an actual partnership with meaningful impact, you could be in trouble..

Thinking about it, it's not as if these teams are landing 5 and 6 figure deals so maybe it's not a problem after-all. In hindsight, I doubt many of these basketball teams have a single corporate sponsorship worth even $5,000.

Looking at the other side of that coin, maybe nobody partners with these organizations in the first place because of the dumb decisions they make.

LightningMan

11-25-2011, 11:05 AM

Looking at the other side of that coin, maybe nobody partners with these organizations in the first place because of the dumb decisions they make.
Now you're just being obstinate. This is being run at the outset by the owners of the Wilmington Sea Dawgs and the Cary Invasion. Back when they both were owners of the Sea Dawgs, they had sponsorships for the team and managed to create an audience while in the absolutely chaotic ABA.

The Sea Dawgs will be starting their sixth year in minor league basketball which is getting to be some sort of longevity record. They have done it by forging partnerships with various business concerns in the area. The owner of the Invasion seems to have done the same thing there. Their dumbest decisions have arguably been the league organizations they have chosen to partner with in this period: ABA, PBL, CBL.

These men own other businesses and seem to pay their players and play their games. I actually expect them to get sponsorships at a better rate than the ABA, PBL, and CBL have done. Given the track record of the two team owners, it wouldn't surprise me if the TRBL achieves operational parity with the PBL and NBL within the next three years.

LightningMan

11-25-2011, 11:09 AM

And if your plan as a basketball team is to target basketball fans - you're doomed.
You do want to target basketball fans. You don't want to solely target basketball fans, but it would be stupid to not target basketball fans.

JeffKuntz

11-25-2011, 11:16 AM

You do want to target basketball fans. You don't want to solely target basketball fans, but it would be stupid to not target basketball fans.

You know what I meant.

JeffKuntz

11-25-2011, 11:21 AM

Now you're just being obstinate.

I had to look up "obstinate" to verify that I correctly remembered what it meant.

The Sea Dawgs will be starting their sixth year in minor league basketball which is getting to be some sort of longevity record. They have done it by forging partnerships with various business concerns in the area. The owner of the Invasion seems to have done the same thing there. Their dumbest decisions have arguably been the league organizations they have chosen to partner with in this period: ABA, PBL, CBL.

That's like bragging that you got your name in the phone book.. it's sort of automatic..

I know you're not privy to my phone conversations, but just last week I was speaking with someone and praising the job the Sea Dawgs had done..

These men own other businesses and seem to pay their players and play their games. I actually expect them to get sponsorships at a better rate than the ABA, PBL, and CBL have done. Given the track record of the two team owners, it wouldn't surprise me if the TRBL achieves operational parity with the PBL and NBL within the next three years.

And again I was speaking in wider terms than just one or two teams.. when you look at my statement against the entire minor league basketball landscape it makes a great deal of sense..

When you narrow in on one successful team then it makes my statement look stupid, I agree.

DazedAndAmused

11-25-2011, 11:48 AM

JK,

I just do not see your core arguments, which started out being about the name tobacco road, holding up in light of current facts and I believe national and regional opinion IMO. Your opinion is your opinion however.

We (or others) could continue any number of a thousand threads here in OSC if you want to talk about the general capabilities and execution of minor league teams in all of these leagues. I do not think you or I want to waste our time with that.

A few more points:
1. I do not think I suggested minor league teams just target basketball fans, and I would agree that would be a losing strategy. I do not think it is fair to extract that from my quote. Either way it is highly doubtful minor league teams lead with the league name in their marketing efforts anyway, unless they are in the Dleague at min.
2. I do not have the books on any of these teams but believe that at least one or two who claim to be the in the league so far do have significant sponsors. They only have three teams anyway at this point so we do not have much to reference.
3. I do think it is fair for me to reference other potential bad things (hot dogs, nachos, fat kids, potentially offensive team names etc) if you bring up one to make a point. It creates context, the basis for logical assumptions, and a debate platform. And, I think the things I bring up are much more important (because they are at the forefront) using your logic as I follow it. I do like your douchebag story. I just do not think it contributed to your position.
4. I like the bank example you provide too because I think it does represent the reality of independent minor league sponsorship efforts. My experience has been you might get a couple of bigger key sponsors, but at this level, the nickels and dimes are important and they add up. Not saying this is good or bad, just reality.
5. I do not know if you refer to dumb decisions of the teams in the league mentioned in the title thread or minor league teams in general. Dumb decisions plague minor league basketball from the team to league levels. But if you are questioning why these teams might have made a jump to a new home (regardless of opinions about league name), then I would probably suggest doing just a little more research because it looks fairly obvious to those who have followed the story over the last year.
6. I have to question just how well aware of tobacco road you are based on your comments, but if you say so, OK. In the end, it is just a debate on a message board.

I could be wrong, but my eyes, ears, and experience tell me otherwise. And I see lots of national and multi-national companies sponsoring the likes of ACC basketball and the likes of the Tobacco Road Marathon (the very first example that came up in my google search.)

To summarize:

Tobacco bad. Check. Tobacco road means something else, and that I believe is understood by the market, despite a couple of dissenters here or there (as there always are.) And yes there were a million of other forgettable, generic names they could have gone with. Very few of them we would be talking about probably.

Aside from that, we are touching on a lot of tangents and heading into dead horse category.

JeffKuntz

11-27-2011, 09:10 AM

2. I do not have the books on any of these teams but believe that at least one or two who claim to be the in the league so far do have significant sponsors. They only have three teams anyway at this point so we do not have much to reference.

None of these teams have significant sponsors. If you added up the cash portions of all sponsorship deals that all three current TRBL teams had, I would be surprised if that amount was over $5,000.

For all teams. All sponsors. Combined.

(Obviously if the teams' owners own other businesses that directly fund the teams then that doesn't count.)

I have heard that the SeaDawgs get over 1,000 people to their games. So that's something to work with in terms of building up their corporate partnerships.. but so far, if their website is a reflection of where they stand, they have not done that to date.

JeffKuntz

11-27-2011, 09:26 AM

Obviously we could sit here and pick apart minor league teams.. The bar is not that high.. but there are some teams that we could expect more from and perhaps the SeaDawgs are one of them.

So, to anyone from their front office that may be reading this.. here's some free advice:

http://www.goseadawgs.com/team/staff

You have a lawyer, a couple owners, CPA, communications, administrative assistant, coaches etc... It's possible that aside from the coaches a lot of those people work for/with the people that own the team, and are lending their talents to the team.. which is great by the way.

But of the 19 people listed as staff, you have nobody who does the most important function of all - selling tickets.

Surely you have season ticket holders? Who's their rep?

There's only a handful of teams at that level who might be able to make something out of themselves, and you might be one of them.. so again some free advice, get someone whose only job it is to sell tickets and build relationships with the ticket buyers you've already got.. or take one of your two "corporate relations" people and re-assign them to be your ticketing department..

And whoever it is, put that person's name and contact info in a really easy spot to find on your site.. Your most loyal supporters want to connect with a person to buy their tickets, and know they have someone assigned to their account.. not "info@goseadawgs.com"..

LightningMan

11-27-2011, 11:17 AM

But of the 19 people listed as staff, you have nobody who does the most important function of all - selling tickets.
You really just need to stop, okay. There most certainly is someone whose job is to sell season tickets. Her title may not reflect that, but obviously I talk to someone every year.

You're nitpicking to death an organization that has survived three different minor leagues for five coming up on six seasons. The things you want are nice, but I am not sure are even necessary for a big league club never mind a minor league outfit.

Do you know that the only other founding member of the PBL still in operation is Rochester? I don't know that Wilmington needs to take advice from you on how to do this.

JeffKuntz

11-27-2011, 12:22 PM

You really just need to stop, okay. There most certainly is someone whose job is to sell season tickets. Her title may not reflect that, but obviously I talk to someone every year.

What exactly is it do you think I mean by "selling tickets"? Answering the phone? Operating a box office?

You're nitpicking to death an organization that has survived three different minor leagues for five coming up on six seasons. The things you want are nice, but I am not sure are even necessary for a big league club never mind a minor league outfit.

Ticket sales people are necessary for all professional sports teams and I will not quit saying that.

Do you know that the only other founding member of the PBL still in operation is Rochester? I don't know that Wilmington needs to take advice from you on how to do this.

If it's funded and operated as a hobby then no they don't need anyone's input.. least of all mine.. but I honestly think they can do some good things.

DazedAndAmused

11-27-2011, 02:43 PM

JK,

You mention the word hobby as if it is a bad thing, and as if you suggest minor league basketball can operate as a self-sustaining business concern. I dont think it can in any market today, not really.

If you suggest that any team is making money these days in minor league basketball….and by any team I mean ANY TEAM at any level, then you (JK, me, anyone…generally speaking) are somewhere between simply naive, inexperienced, or a poor student of recent history. It takes people who are doing other things that do make money to fund minor league basketball.

Based on info I have I believe you are off by tens of thousands in your assessment of the combined three TRBL teams\' cash sponsorships. That does not come from seeing their books, but from having worked with a couple of key sponsors previously for one of them. But either way, if of all minor league teams out there you want to point out that there is room for improvement with the Sea Dawgs, that\'s kind of like saying the Pope should pray more, relatively speaking anyway.

Yes, there is always room for improvement, but they are doing it better than the vast majority of all other independent minor league teams out there.

You may happen to work with or for one of the minority, Im not sure. If so, good for you, but if you are they are losing money too and your job is only as stable as the owners desire to pay for his hobby. If you are just a fan, be thankful he has the hobby while he does. Business people pay for sports. Sports people are employees, as much as it pains me to say it.

As far as having staff from other businesses to help out, thats not a good thing. Thats a great thing. And, to one more of your points, depending upon the circumstance, it can most certainly be fair to include sponsorships from owners other businesses (though I do not personally have that info on TRBL teams.) But, if I were a business owner and could get more exposure per $ by putting it into a team in which I have interest as compared to some other outlet, thats just a good business decision. In that case I have simply created my own more effective marketing channel. Its called vertical integration. These types of arrangements and the hobbyists are all that save minor league basketball IMO.

I would not expect miracles from this new league. But based on the previous performances of at least a couple of these teams, I would expect a much more stable single A spring minor league circuit than others have been able to offer in the region. Stability has been huge problem. I just hope these guys do not get too greedy in terms of trying to do too much.

Having a problem with the league name (unsubstantiated IMO for all of the reasons discussed) is one thing, but if in the end here you are really questioning the move of these teams from where they were previously, then you really need to dig in and do the research.

JeffKuntz

11-27-2011, 04:52 PM

Based on info I have I believe you are off by tens of thousands in your assessment of the combined three TRBL teams\' cash sponsorships. That does not come from seeing their books, but from having worked with a couple of key sponsors previously for one of them. But either way, if of all minor league teams out there you want to point out that there is room for improvement with the Sea Dawgs, that\'s kind of like saying the Pope should pray more, relatively speaking anyway.

Fair enough.

I've formed pro sports sponsorships with organiziations such as military contractors to Microsoft to one of the top 10 medical networks in the United States.. each of which would drawf the partnership of all of the teams in any team in minor league basketball league..

"But Jeff, that was the past!" ... not exactly.. the time frame is within the last 12 months.

Allright though, let's talk about the absolute present.. The PBL is one of the largest minor league basketball leagues in terms of budget, correct??

I 100% own and operate a company whose annual budget is greater than all of the lifetime budgets of all teams in the PBL combined. And aside from the $10k ABA fees, greater than the budgets of all of the teams below the D-League combined..

Additionally my company is the #1 cash sponsor of a minor league sports team in our market - right here and now, as I type this..

My point is I'm not exactly spouting off here. I understand these things from several angles.

And I am willing to state with 100% confidence that I am NOT off by tens of thousands of dollars on the TRBL cash sponsorships. In fact I believe the $5,000 cash figure was probably OVER-STATING their position. $15,000 in corporate cash revenue? Not a chance - assuming their 3 websites accurately reflected their list of sponsors..

But by all means.. share your own position and experience with us and let us know what's up..

DazedAndAmused

11-27-2011, 07:27 PM

Ok, so we started off with you not liking the league name for reasons IMO that indicate a lack of understanding of the region and business in the region.

Then another poster references the capabilities and history of the ring leaders (by team) of this apparent effort and you migrate to info@ email addresses, non dedicated staff (not sure why that would be an issue or what your point was there), and discounting support from owners other companies (I think.) Then we get to your 100% confidence about cash sponsorships (which runs totally opposite of the actual info/prior experience that I have with one of these teams, and more accurately their sponsors, as I did share previously.) I am really just trying to figure out what your position is here and what you are trying to get at.

These teams have lower budgets? The owners are not dedicated to just basketball? These guys cant create or run a league because….? The other league was better? (Really?) Maybe you just really liked the CBL and think these teams should have stayed? If so, some of us would probably like to know the reasons. Maybe you could convince us. If we are simply picking out small parts of each others posts and countering without a trying to make a more significant point, well, OK. I usually like to be heading somewhere in these discussions, but will admit my contribution to a rambling thread if thats what it has become.

You bring up the PBL. Fine league. Good presence. Seemingly going through another transition. Far from perfect too. Dont the guys that run that league and some of their teams have other jobs or companies? You dont think they are sharing resources and doing intracompany sponsorships? You probably know better than me so I will yield to you on it.

Is this new TRBL league likely going to run with much lower budgets than PBL teams do on average today? I would say most certainly yes without any direct knowledge, but the PBL has had its share of low budget teams, teams folding mid season, etc too, some of which affected Wilmington negatively. Frankly I would like the Sea Dawgs in the PBL but I do not think that it makes sense geographically. At one time it did but the teams nearby all went away. (Do that research too.) But I am not even sure why we are talking about the PBL. The TRBL looks to be a spring league, if anything a potential partner. The competitors might be the IBL, WBA, and CBL. Spring leagues are entirely different animals, particularly in the Southeast for lots of reasons. The PBL is effectively competing with the ABA, IBA, Dleague, maybe the CBA again, and handful of regional winter leagues.

I am definitely all for your right to be unimpressed with aspects of this new league or its individual teams (even my dawgs) but to have any credibility I think you need to acknowledge what these teams have had to deal with and apply an equal critique to where they came from. If you do that, and yes, do the research, my guess is will you get it, that is if you are truly objective.

I am glad to hear that you are a one percenter though…we need more of you in minor league sports.

JeffKuntz

11-28-2011, 10:09 PM

Frankly I would like the Sea Dawgs in the PBL but I do not think that it makes sense geographically.

Well let's just say that the door was not closed by the PBL on that happening this season.

But why would you like to see that? Better basketball?

I am definitely all for your right to be unimpressed with aspects of this new league or its individual teams (even my dawgs) but to have any credibility I think you need to acknowledge what these teams have had to deal with and apply an equal critique to where they came from. If you do that, and yes, do the research, my guess is will you get it, that is if you are truly objective.

Well like I said (twice so far) the SeaDawgs have many building blocks already in place. I talked about them because I don't think it's a waste of time to talk about them.

While it can be easily argued that my judgments of organizations are not necessary, that's why we're all here on OSC isn't it? To discuss.. And when a team doesn't have a mascot and/or a ticket sales staff it bugs me..

As you know, too often teams are formed without the first thought given to a professional approach to revenue generation. We all think the team will have support from the business community and that sponsorship dollars - while not automatic - are there for the taking. And that's completely false. As the SeaDawgs front office people will tell you, it's HARD to get businesses to cut checks..

So when I looked at the TRBL's three teams and saw their sponsors I immediately disagreed with the statement that they have "significant sponsors" in place. Because - and again, assuming their websites reflect their sponsors accurately - they have next to nothing..

Ticket sales are by far the more important aspect anyway.. It's not even close.. In fact if I was these teams with 100 fans going to a game (half of whom are related to the players) in the first year I would approach as many sponsors as possible with concepts that provide for ticket sales.. ie for a car dealer, have the dealer's package be 200 tickets for something like $2 each.. and give 4 tickets to the next 50 people who do a test drive.. or a furniture store, have their package contain tickets and train the sales staff to watch for cues such as people who enter their stores wearing NBA jerseys are likely basketball fans - so have some tickets ready to fork for free over as a gesture and hopefully help make the sale.. these are just two examples but there is a huge amount of opportunity..

Do whatever you can think of to have businesses distributing your tickets and give the impression that the sponsors are paying full price for them.. And basically provide the signage at your games for an extremely cost effective rate..

Yeah $2 is devaluing your ticket by 80% or more, but those people weren't going to the games anyway.. And they don't know what the sponsor paid for the ticket.. And the other thing I would do is to give tickets to a specific game, not a flex voucher to any game.. if you give them to a specific game it's far more likely to be used.. Then when they're at your games you obviously have to have a robust strategy to build the relationship from that point to get them back to a second game..

And to the businesses that help distribute your tickets? Send them a graphic for their break room they can pin up after every game with the score and your won-loss record and encourage them to come out as a staff to a game..

Another tangent. I know. Since you like me to spell out my points specifically: There's lots these teams can do that they do not do. That's not news. But what seems to be news is that they don't even have the basic infrastructure in place to do them. They have no people in place to generate revenue. For most teams I wouldn't even bother offering a critique, but I believe the SeaDawgs could be different. They're worth the effort of typing out posts like this.

DazedAndAmused

11-29-2011, 09:58 AM

Well, I appreciate you telling me you are trying to make a point, but just not sure you are getting there. Let me help you at least summarize so far:

1. You dont like the league name for reasons contrary to fact and public opinion and tendencies of national corporations. (See prior posts.)
2. You have tried to make scattered observations about the capabilities or execution of the leagues apparent ring leader based on suppositions from a list of names and titles on a website. Last post you have told us that this team doesnt have someone selling tickets or a mascot?
3. You are adamant about what you know (when you couldnt possibly IMO) about their sponsorships.
4. You tell us you only criticize as a good samaritan because you think think they have potential...my paraphrase. (That would be a first on OSC.)
5. Then you imply some insiders knowledge that the PBL may want or may have wanted the dawgs this season. (The dawgs should be honored!) I thought the PBL only recruits teams from the ABA ? :)

That pretty much do it? Still no real point that I see, but hey its America. But I am trying to follow your train of thought. Is it simply that these guys dont know what they are doing (and you think you have provided evidence to support that) and that they would be better off in the PBL rather than starting a new league? I think your arguments are weak and stretched for the former but you could be right about the latter, dont know. Just remember we saw that movie once before. It had a nice start but fizzled at the end. Maybe the sequel could be better.

Regarding your question about better basketball, I cant honestly say that the PBL offered better basketball. Per my recollection the dawgs had a much better record in the PBL than they have had in the CBL…. so if better ball is measured by which league has beaten them the most i would have to say the CBL over the other 2 leagues they were in.

I would say however say that the PBL was MUCH better organized, and thats why i have generally been a proponent of the PBL…they have had FEWER teams dropping out/deadbeat teams/etc, but unfortunately that doesnt seem to manifest itself in team retention. I still like the league because of the time, energy, and money they seem to put in to it and my guess is that the dawgs would have stayed if teams were around. But thats just conjecture on my part.

I do believe it is perfectly fair to suggest that this new TRBL thingy (eg, the title of the thread) will be done on a smaller scale and with lower budgets on average than your league, but the spring leagues generally are. But I also notice some 2012 PBL teams (admittedly from a quick look at a wiki page) are playing in high schools, juco\'s, and rec centers, so Im not totally convinced we are talking worlds apart here, especially when you take Rochester (arguably the best and most well funded minor league ball organization in the US) out of the equation.

JeffKuntz

11-29-2011, 06:15 PM

Well, I appreciate you telling me you are trying to make a point, but just not sure you are getting there.

I've written what? 3000 words? 5000 words? And I've failed to make a point.

I'm doing badly!

3. You are adamant about what you know (when you couldnt possibly IMO) about their sponsorships.

Dude. Did you look at the list they had up there when the thread began. (Not sure if it's changed). There's no way those were significant cash paying sponsors.

5. Then you imply some insiders knowledge that the PBL may want or may have wanted the dawgs this season. (The dawgs should be honored!) I thought the PBL only recruits teams from the ABA ? :)

Let me tell you my take on the PBL and their CEO Brij Desai: They are extremely aggressive and left few stones unturned. They talked to lots of teams. Brij was brought on by Sev to rebuild the PBL as quickly as possible. Did he cut corners with some teams that were brought on? Probably. But as we've all seen with any construction site, or any time you've tried to build something - when you build something big you always make a mess, and you clean up the mess later.

And I think they knew full well that messes will happen, but it was more important to rebuild the PBL quickly than it was to build it perfectly.. They were down to 1 team.. From their point of view they had to take some chances..

Regarding your question about better basketball, I cant honestly say that the PBL offered better basketball.

I realized after I posted that this was a poor question from me. With so many expansion teams and no rosters set, it's impossible to know how the basketball will be.

Im not totally convinced we are talking worlds apart here, especially when you take Rochester (arguably the best and most well funded minor league ball organization in the US) out of the equation.

Time will tell. I think Rochester and Bloomington will be the marquee PBL franchises.. TRBL is still forming so it's impossible to say..

DazedAndAmused

11-29-2011, 09:15 PM

Well, ok. Ill stop accusing you of not making any points because you have actually helped me make mine.

It is a simple one. You are living in a glass house which makes your points of criticism (which look mostly unsubstantiated, uninformed, or just off target) that much more peculiar, not to mention the reasons why you might waste the time offering them up. (I only associate you with the PBL because you seem to associate yourself, not to accuse you of anything.)

You have a league with all brand new teams plucked from another league that many love to malign. You have what, 25, 30 former teams? You admit to cutting corners and rushing. We cant really talk about the quality of basketball we both agree, although I have provided you with some data that could the support the quality has been higher in the last couple of years in the CBL than the years the dawgs were in the PBL. I would not claim that was due to the prowess of the CBL or the Sea Dawgs. In spring ball you get guys returning from overseas who are looking for opportunities to continue to play so you can often get higher quality players than you can during the winter & get them at a bargain….but hopefully you know that. But you brought the quality question up anyway, not me.

You give all of the justifications that the other leagues do for the moves they make (construction site example, had to build it fast, we know it wont be perfect, yada, yada, yada.) Maybe your guys had no choice, but nonetheless these moves wipe the pulpit out from under your feet.

Hear me again. I have been a proponent of your league. Actually, so has the other poster who has been contributing here. Your guys seem to have money and are more organized than many of the other winter options. But your guys burn through teams faster than Oprah knocks down flapjacks, seem to have trouble making friends, and look to have quite a bit of work in front of you. You will have to forgive us that arent seeing the recipe for success immediately in front of us.

In the end, your guys might be wildly successful, and the Carolina guys might fail miserably. Or, it may be the other way around. Or they might both fade away after they get tired of spending money (which may be the most likely result b/c I have no idea why either would being doing it anyway.) As you say we have one forming league with no track record (and I believe a different, regional model) and another one trying to pick up the pieces.

All in all though, you just have to see the irony in nearly all of your posts on this thread. If not, then wow. Just wow.

JeffKuntz

11-30-2011, 07:29 AM

(I only associate you with the PBL because you seem to associate yourself, not to accuse you of anything.)

I am not associated with the PBL or any of its teams.

DazedAndAmused

11-30-2011, 12:33 PM

My bad then. I must have misinterpreted this:

[Well lets just say that the door was not closed by the PBL on that happening this season.]

It seemed logical to assume that by virtue of this statement you are in the know, some how, some way.

But either way, you must be absolutely outraged, incensed, totally beside yourself about a team being talked about in another thread, the Charleston GUNNERS!!!

Dont these guys know that guns kill people? Are they crazy? Arent they trying to get kids to show up? No sponsor could ever afford to be associated with anything like this! What are these guys doing? How can the league possibly allow this? These guys deserve the strongest rebuke possible! :)

Hopefully you can go set them straight on that side of the forum. I think the douchebags need to make an appearance!

Sorry, couldnt resist. We will see how things pan out for all of these guys. I hope they both can achieve something. From what I can tell there are dedicated people on both sides.

JeffKuntz

11-30-2011, 06:44 PM

But either way, you must be absolutely outraged, incensed, totally beside yourself about a team being talked about in another thread, the Charleston GUNNERS!!!

Dont these guys know that guns kill people? Are they crazy? Arent they trying to get kids to show up?

Even worse, the Dayton Air Strikers! Surely children should not be playing around air strikes!

Sorry, couldnt resist. We will see how things pan out for all of these guys. I hope they both can achieve something. From what I can tell there are dedicated people on both sides.

Hopefully it works out well for everyone. Stronger league management is always a plus.

DazedAndAmused

11-30-2011, 08:13 PM

Lets hope for some good, stable ball from the MidWest to NY in the winter and down into the Carolinas in the spring. The guys down south will seemingly have to get it done by OJT.

LightningMan

12-02-2011, 02:47 PM

More teams on board:

Carolina Gladiators Move to TRBL (http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=4326842)

The Carolina Gladiators have announced their move to the Tobacco Road Basketball League (TRBL). The team will play home games at venues in Johnston County, North Carolina and will join other TRBL teams from Cary, Wilmington, and Fayetteville, North Carolina. The Gladiators played last season in the Eastern Basketball Alliance and were based in Fayetteville for the 2010-2011 winter season.

More at link above.

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Primetime Players Bring Game to TRBL (http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=4326843)

The PrimeTime Players of Rock Hill, SC have announced their acceptance into the Tobacco Road Basketball League (TRBL). The PrimeTime Players have a 20-year history playing in various minor leagues, tournaments, and exhibition games and have advanced playing careers in the United States and abroad. The team will play its home games in venues in the Rock Hill and metro Charlotte areas.

More at link above.