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gatek99
06-08-2011, 10:26 AM
http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/jun/07/ryan-explores-bringing-nba-d-league-team-covelli/

The Covelli Centre’s executive director says he’s talked with Cleveland Cavaliers and National Basketball Association Development League officials about bringing a Cavs-affiliated minor-league team to the Youngstown facility.

The NBA wants each of its 30 teams to have its own D-League team, said Wells and Ryan. There are currently 16 D-League teams.


What do you guys think?

Fez
06-08-2011, 03:25 PM
I think it is a great idea. A close city with a tight-affiliation to the local NBA team makes a ton of sense. Youngstown folks are already Cavs fans. A win-win.

The Dayton Dragons are the Cincinnati Reds A team --and the close link to Cincinnati makes it a great combo --and the Dragons have been a huge success in a City with a horrible economic climate.

I'd love to see more of this.

DFWCC
06-08-2011, 05:30 PM
I think it is a great idea. A close city with a tight-affiliation to the local NBA team makes a ton of sense. Youngstown folks are already Cavs fans. A win-win.

The Dayton Dragons are the Cincinnati Reds AA team --and the close link to Cincinnati makes it a great combo --and the Dragons have been a huge success in a City with a horrible economic climate.

I'd love to see more of this.

The Dayton Dragons are a class A team in the MWL. Not an AA team.

DFWCC
06-08-2011, 06:19 PM
Great news for Youngstown, :cool:one of my favorite cities.
We have a team in Erie and its really great excitement and good family fun.
I am looking forward to taking the 90 mile trip down to the Covelli Center.:D

bectond
06-08-2011, 09:08 PM
Since the D league is not expanding the Cavs must plan on buying an existing team and moving it to Youngstown. I believe both Dakota and New Mexico have been on the market recently so I'd look for one of those teams to relocate.

DFWCC
06-09-2011, 12:03 AM
Bingo.
Look for the Cavs to bring the team from ABQ Mew Mex.
They were last in Att at 1,959 fans per game.
Save Bakersfield which is a special situation.

nksports
06-09-2011, 02:12 AM
Would the Cavs actually own this team? Got to remember this is the same ownership that folded the Cleveland Rockers to be able to sign LeBron. Of course with LaBron gone, the Cadavaliers need some player development and need it fast.

DFWCC
06-09-2011, 12:30 PM
As I understand it. The Cavs want to buy the New Mex Thunderbirds located in Albuquerque.

Ken, Steelheads fan
06-10-2011, 11:11 AM
http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/jun/07/ryan-explores-bringing-nba-d-league-team-covelli/





What do you guys think?

I think there were too many if's listed in the article for the D-League to work in Youngstown.
If the two teams work together to share advertising and sponsors as well as attract ticket holders while coordinating their schedules, both could succeed, Zoldan said.

I've heard much talk of sharing advertising and sponsors, but I've never known it to actually work.

Also, there is a reason why the nation's lowest median home price is in and around Youngstown, Ohio. America's Dirt-Cheap Housing Markets (http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/americas-dirt-cheap-housing-markets.html).

The economic picture isn't much better in Cleveland. Will Cleveland be able to sustain an NBA franchise much longer? I seem to remember predictions that it will take the economy at least another five years to return to pre-2008 employment levels. That was last year when I read those predictions. The nation is probably in for at least another four years of tough times. Franchises will do well to simply survive during these times.

gatek99
06-10-2011, 11:36 AM
I think there were too many if's listed in the article for the D-League to work in Youngstown.

I've heard much talk of sharing advertising and sponsors, but I've never known it to actually work.

Also, there is a reason why the nation's lowest median home price is in and around Youngstown, Ohio. America's Dirt-Cheap Housing Markets (http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/americas-dirt-cheap-housing-markets.html).

The economic picture isn't much better in Cleveland. Will Cleveland be able to sustain an NBA franchise much longer? I seem to remember predictions that it will take the economy at least another five years to return to pre-2008 employment levels. That was last year when I read those predictions. The nation is probably in for at least another four years of tough times. Franchises will do well to simply survive during these times.

you do realize that the suburbs are flourishing? Downtown is crappy, but all the fans would be coming from the burbs most likely

Ken, Steelheads fan
06-10-2011, 04:07 PM
I want to learn more about the flourishing suburbs of Youngstown, Ohio because National Public Radio points out something interesting about the county where Youngstown is located. Ohio City A Battleground For Obama's Economy Policy (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127411119).
When Obama came to Youngstown two weeks ago, he visited the V&M Star steel plant, whose owner is investing $650 million, creating 400 construction jobs and promising 350 permanent jobs. It was part of a broader pitch the president made to show how the stimulus package is helping in places like Ohio.

Still, the jobless rate in this county tops 14 percent, and the recovery feels a long way off, as the president acknowledged that day.

"And a lot of people — let's just be blunt — aren't always real impressed when a governor or a president comes swooping in and talking about the economy, because the only headline they want to see is the headline that says 'You're hired,' " he said.

{emphasis is mine}


That's an awful lot of unemployed people in the Youngstown area. This article is a year old. Has the employment picture improved significantly? Also, could you post a link on those flourishing suburbs so I can understand better? When I read dirt cheapest housing market in the entire nation, I can only think depressed local economy.

Buffalo Super Fan
06-12-2011, 12:51 AM
http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/jun/07/ryan-explores-bringing-nba-d-league-team-covelli/





What do you guys think?

I would like the Cavs farm team's chances of succeeding in a larger city like Cincinnati or Columbus better. Cincinnati at the old Cincinnati Gardens where the old Cincinnati Royals played is a better idea. The whole D-League doesn't work for me and I see why it is failing and not really accepted by many sports fans in any great numbers. D-League would be better with old NBA teams names and cities.

Like as example old NBA names Cincinnati Royals, Buffalo Braves, Baltimore Bullets, Kansas City Kings, and Pittsburgh Pipers, Virginia Squires, Spirits of St. Louis old ABA names as D-League franchises instead of this let's go to single a and double a cities to me in my opinion is failure and basically small time amateur hour. Use cities and old team names with build in name recognition for pro basketball that are use to paying major league prices. It worked for the Buffalo Bisons returning to the IL after years of out of the IL. Sorry but it is how I feel. You want D-League to be taken seriously and to have a larger following like IL baseball and AHL hockey get into major league and triple a cities not reaching down to single a and double a cities. Let's Go Buffalo

panchess
06-12-2011, 03:04 PM
Cincinnati has two major (power conference) college basketball teams, UC and Xavier. Even hockey struggles there. So would the D-League.

The D-League is trying to find markets where there isn't major college basketball. Hence Des Moines, Erie, Portland and perhaps Youngstown. Reno, Rio Grande Valley and Springfield fit the mold too. The weakest D-League team is in Alburquque, home of the University of New Mexico.

Ken, Steelheads fan
06-12-2011, 05:06 PM
...D-League would be better with old NBA teams names and cities.

Like as example old NBA names Cincinnati Royals, Buffalo Braves, Baltimore Bullets, Kansas City Kings, and Pittsburgh Pipers, Virginia Squires, Spirits of St. Louis old ABA names as D-League franchises instead of this let's go to single a and double a cities to me in my opinion is failure and basically small time amateur hour...

Some of those old names won't fly in today's era of political correctness. The Washington Wizards are the Wizards because too many people in the Washington/Baltimore area were being killed by bullets. Also, a new franchise calling themselves the Braves would pick up a lot of flak.

BTW, I became an honorary greek person over the weekend (which makes me proud). However, I won't be changing my user name to Ken, The Greek fan as it will not be politically correct. 8)

bectond
06-12-2011, 09:36 PM
The Cav's are using the team as a developmental tool; therefore, I think their main concern for management is Youngstown's proximity to Cleveland(ie executives are more concerned with commute times then Youngstowns economic standing).

gatek99
06-13-2011, 11:28 AM
I want to learn more about the flourishing suburbs of Youngstown, Ohio because National Public Radio points out something interesting about the county where Youngstown is located. Ohio City A Battleground For Obama's Economy Policy (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127411119).


That's an awful lot of unemployed people in the Youngstown area. This article is a year old. Has the employment picture improved significantly? Also, could you post a link on those flourishing suburbs so I can understand better? When I read dirt cheapest housing market in the entire nation, I can only think depressed local economy.

I could be really wrong on facts and figures. Downtown is a joke, but there are all kinds of houses going up in Mahoning County (Poland, Boardman, Canfield) including Million dollar homes. Someone just built a 3 Million dollar home in Canfield. The numbers could be horrible, but some of the suburbs are very nice right now. Once again the figures are probably horrible, but this area is packed with people at least.

wasteland
06-13-2011, 01:24 PM
It was already noted and proved elsewhere that unemployments numbers have little bearing on attendance figures (see Rockford Icehogs). You put a quality product on and off the court along with affordable tickets, you have a fighting chance. People still want to be entertained. While a pro game might now be out of reach, the minors need to step up for a piece of the smaller dollar amount people are willing to spend. From the link posted you still have 84% with jobs.

Ken, Steelheads fan
06-13-2011, 05:06 PM
It was already noted and proved elsewhere that unemployments numbers have little bearing on attendance figures (see Rockford Icehogs)...

Noted and proven that unemployment numbers have little bearing on attendance figures?!? Could YOU help me understand that concept better because it's contrary to everything I know and have heard about an economic downturn. The following seems more typical to me.
Major League Baseball still fighting the effects of recession (http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=164270)

J.C. Bradbury, author of “The Baseball Economist: the Real Game Exposed” said that during a recession, fans might cut on expenses like minor league baseball.

“For a lot of these minor league teams that are in smaller towns where people just want to get the experience, it’s a cheap opportunity. My guess is that they scaled back on going to minor league games kind of like they scaled back on going to movies or going out to dinner,” Bradbury said.

People are cutting back on minor league attendance...and cutting back on going to movies and going out to dinner too. It's great that the IceHogs set an attendance record this season. I hope the bump had much to do with the parent team, Chicago Blackhawks being 2010 Stanley Cup champions. Rockford has been an established hockey town for years now...but what of Rockford's other minor league teams? What of Rockford's efforts to bring a D-League team to town during these times of tight credit?

...From the link posted you still have 84% with jobs.

Best example of circular logic I've seen in a long time. Yes, and if 8% are unemployed then you still have 92% with jobs. :|

Ken, Steelheads fan
06-13-2011, 05:37 PM
The Cav's are using the team as a developmental tool; therefore, I think their main concern for management is Youngstown's proximity to Cleveland(ie executives are more concerned with commute times then Youngstowns economic standing).

Now you understand why I think the D-League will become nothing more than a series of taxi squads played in practice-type facilities. Money, or the lack thereof.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=4583&highlight=taxi+squads&page=2

2007?!? Dang! I'm consistent.

preeths
06-13-2011, 10:34 PM
People are cutting back on minor league attendance...
Not really. Many teams and even entire leagues have actually seen attendance increases over the last few years. In general, the economy has had a much bigger impact on corporate sponsorships than on attendance.

Ken, Steelheads fan
06-14-2011, 10:52 AM
This is what happens when I am a day (year?) late and a dollar short. The minor leagues have a good 2010 and forget to tell me.
Economical minor leagues are packing in the fans in 2010:
Attendance figures in baseball are bouncing back after a dip in 2009. (http://jacksonville.com/sports/2010-07-17/story/economical-minor-leagues-are-packing-fans-2010)

I wonder if the D-League experienced a similar bounce back too.

http://www.howesportsdata.com/howesportsdata/stats/basket/nbdl/info0091.txt

...well, maybe it's better to stick to baseball and hockey. Finding yearly NBADL attendance figures is like trying to find a unicorn.

bectond
06-15-2011, 07:47 PM
The Rio Grand Valley Vipers play in one of the poorest areas in the nation; and yet they are one of the most successful franchises in the DL. The bottom 20% of the population generally do not buy season tickets in any market; therefore the 14% unemployment rate really does not apply here. The question should be(what entertainment options do the top 40% of the population have), if their options are limited than the franchise can succeed.

wasteland
06-15-2011, 09:37 PM
I hope the bump had much to do with the parent team, Chicago Blackhawks being 2010 Stanley Cup champions. Rockford has been an established hockey town for years now...but what of Rockford's other minor league teams? What of Rockford's efforts to bring a D-League team to town during these times of tight credit?

I doubt it from the 06-07 season to the 10-11 season attendance increased by over 30,00 fans. Its just been a steady yearly increase. You provided affordable high quality entertainment, they will come.

Lets see the Riverhawks now have a new, much more financial stable owner that moved the team to a much more stable league. Double win there. The college wood bat team continues to put on great games downtown.

Oh and speaking of the wood bat team, it was it's principal owner Joe Stefani that told media outlets he was interested into looking into brining a D-league team to town ( i can only assume the interest would begin and end with Mr. Lotto Craig Drecktrah who is part of the Forestors ownership group on top of his own Chicago Express). There was no push, serious or otherwise by the city or area that I am aware of. So yeah, that really has nothing to do with the current job/credit or whatever issue you're throwing in there.

DFWCC
06-16-2011, 09:15 PM
Try these D League Att numbers

6/10/2009
08/09 ave from D league Ave Attend

1 Ft Wayne Mad Ants 4008 96199
2 Sioux Falls Skyforce 3658 84911
3 Iowa Energy 3609 81838
4 RG-Valley Vipers 3551 75077
5 Reno Bighorns 3269 65529
6 Utah Flash 3219 77258
7 Idaho Stampede 2791 61294
8 Erie Bayhawks 2737 65675
9 Dakota Wizzards 2471 59315
10 Tulsa 66ers 2445 55314
11 Albuquerque Thunderbirds 2251 54014
12 Austin Toros 2027 46447
13 Bakersfield Jam 1866 43444
14 Anaheim Arsenal 1837 39145
15 Colorado 14ers 1050 26497
16 Los Angeles Defenders 0 0
2427
Green = new
Red = gone

09/10 ave from D league Ave Attend

1 Utah Flash 4940 118563
2 RG-Valley Vipers 4481 108632
3 Iowa Energy 4014 96342
4 Ft Wayne Mad Ants 3318 79641
5 Sioux Falls Skyforce 3112 74679
6 Maine Red Claws 3047 76127
7 Erie Bayhawks 2996 71901
8 Dakota Wizzards 2839 68131
9 Tulsa 66 ers 2658 63797
10 Springfield Armor 2595 62270
11 Idaho Stampede 2535 60835
12 Reno Bighorns 2171 52103
13 Albuquerque Thunderbirds 2101 50421
14 Austin Toros 1815 41359
15 Bakersfield Jam 491 11797
16 Los Angeles Defenders 213 5100
2591


10/11 ave from D league Ave H/g Attend Include play off games
1 Iowa Energy 4871 29 141221
2 RG-Valley Vipers 4791 28 134151
3 Utah Flash 4422 25 110554
4 Erie Bayhawks 3367 25 84174
5 Texas Legends 3336 25 83411
6 Sioux Falls Skyforce 3053 24 73263
7 Maine Red Claws 3045 24 73080
8 Ft Wayne Mad Ants 2921 24 70103
9 Austin Toros 2756 24 66145
10 Springfield Armor 2599 24 62377
11 Tulsa 66 ers 2551 26 66332
12 Dakota Wizzards 2535 24 60845
13 Idaho Stampede 2496 24 59898
14 Reno Bighorns 2141 27 57835
15 Albuquerque Thunderbirds 1959 24 47020
16 Bakersfield Jam 500 25 12500


Note Bakersfield is limited to 500 by design

DFWCC
06-16-2011, 09:47 PM
With ABQ near the bottom the last 3yrs they look like a shoe-in
for the move to Ygtwn.

bectond
06-24-2011, 10:08 AM
With ABQ near the bottom the last 3yrs they look like a shoe-in
for the move to Ygtwn.

Maybe not, Utah is sitting out this upcoming season and is up for sale. There seems to be some friction between Utah's NBA and D-League ownership groups because the Jazz do not want to enter into a hybrid partnership.

DFWCC
06-26-2011, 05:13 PM
The Cavs wanted to buy the Erie Bayhawks of whom they had a
working agreement.
The Erie ownership did not want to sell. The cavs may have threatened to pull the agreement.
Erie then signed a hybrid deal with the NY Knicks. That leaves the Cavs shopping around, hence Youngstown.

skippy
06-26-2011, 05:49 PM
Here is your answer as to what team it is:

http://www.krqe.com/dpp/sports/nm_sports/new-mexico-thunderbirds-future-uncertain?ref=nf

They gave up their dates...

Gag order on the owner for ten days.

I'm hearing that he will sign the franchise over on July 1st to Youngstown.

toad455
06-26-2011, 06:22 PM
so Utah sits out, LA returns and New Mexico moves to Youngstown, Ohio.

This should make the conferences even with 8 teams each.

EAST: Dakota, Erie, Fort Wayne, Iowa, Maine, Sioux Falls, Springfield, Youngstown.
WEST: Austin, Bakersfield, Idaho, Los Angeles, Reno, Rio Grande, Texas, Tulsa.

Or divide into 4 divisions??

NORTHEAST: Maine, Springfield, Erie, Youngstown.
CENTRAL: Fort Wayne, Dakota, Sioux Falls, Iowa.
MIDWEST: Tulsa, Texas, Rio Grande, Austin.
PACIFIC: Bakersfield, Idaho, Los Angeles, Reno.

DFWCC
06-27-2011, 05:32 PM
Going to enjoy the 96 mile ride from Erie to Youngstown.

bectond
06-29-2011, 08:06 PM
Here is your answer as to what team it is:

http://www.krqe.com/dpp/sports/nm_sports/new-mexico-thunderbirds-future-uncertain?ref=nf

They gave up their dates...

Gag order on the owner for ten days.

I'm hearing that he will sign the franchise over on July 1st to Youngstown.

With Golden state buying Dakota, that leaves two teams for sale. Cleveland could buy the other team (Utah) and another team could be buying NM.

DFWCC
07-06-2011, 11:34 PM
Youngstown, Ya doublecrossed me.

Congradulations to Canton, Ohio.

See Ya in the fall :)

tops804
07-07-2011, 12:07 AM
Youngstown, Ya doublecrossed me.

Cogradulations to Canton, Ohio.

See Ya in the fall :)

To elaborate...

Local news in Cleveland is reporting that the Cavaliers and city of Canton have scheduled a press conference for tomorrow (July 7th). It is expected that they will announce a D-League team being placed in Canton.

Recent home of:
Canton-Akron Indians (EL) 1989-1996
Canton Crocodiles (FL) 1997-2001

Canton Invaders (AISA/NPSL) 1984-1996
Ohio Vortex (PASL-Pro) 2009-Current

Canton Legends (AIFL/AIFA) 2005-2008
Canton Cougars (UIFL) 2011-Current

Ohio Gears (UHL) 1999-2000 (Nearby in Massillon)
Canton Xpress/Ice Patrol (UHL) 2001-2002 (Never played a game)

Canton Conquest/Airmen (GPBL2) 2010 (Not considered a legitimate "minor" league IMO, but the only basketball team I can remember.)

The CBA and WLAF both looked into placing franchises in Canton in the early 1990's, but those plans never materialized...

In short. "Comfortable", small market. But it's hard to figure if the team can be a draw over a long period of time.

LightningMan
07-07-2011, 03:03 AM
They'll play off of being the baby Cavaliers. The Cavs are very popular in Akron (from the years they played in Richfield, even before Mr. South Beach) and Akron is just 20 minutes up the road from Canton (and it's where the Canton Akron Indians moved to as the Akron Aeros).

It's basically the same model as the Indians, who have almost all of their minor league teams somewhere in Ohio, with the AAA Columbus Clippers being the furthest Ohio team from the big club. (The Indians also have the high-A affiliate in Kinston,NC, moving to Zebulon, NC next year, and I believe they have Dominican and Gulf Coast teams.)

tops804
07-07-2011, 03:33 AM
They'll play off of being the baby Cavaliers. The Cavs are very popular in Akron (from the years they played in Richfield, even before Mr. South Beach) and Akron is just 20 minutes up the road from Canton (and it's where the Canton Akron Indians moved to as the Akron Aeros).

Not quite to sellout crowds in Richfield however. There was always a question as to whether the MISL's Force of the 80's were more "Akron's team" also.

It's basically the same model as the Indians, who have almost all of their minor league teams somewhere in Ohio, with the AAA Columbus Clippers being the furthest Ohio team from the big club. (The Indians also have the high-A affiliate in Kinston,NC, moving to Zebulon, NC next year, and I believe they have Dominican and Gulf Coast teams.)

Gulf Coast -- No. It's in the Arizona league now. (Rookie)
Dominican -- Not that I'm aware of.
Also, Mahoning Valley (Close to Youngstown) -- Is a short season (NYPL) Indians affiliate.
Lake County (Eastlake) -- In the Midwest league (A)

Indeed, it took them forever to figure it out. But the teams work much better when they are closer to the big club.

Compared to say, the Colorado Springs Skysox of the 1980's & early 90's. :eek:



However, we are talking basketball. When talking "models", NBA teams would have just one piece. On a major league baseball scale, it makes for a much clearer picture, as to the how and why the pieces will all come together.

I'm just not sure that Canton has they population, or economic uplift to support this team. I don't see Akron as a legitimate crutch, as they would travel (and pay) to see the big club; Or none at all. On the plus side, I am aware that the big club usually helps carry the D-League team, or else most D-League teams wouldn't last for very long at all.

Ironically, the WLAF nixed Canton, in part, because of its big stadium. Which they knew would "look" empty even when a good "number" might be in attendance for the market.

The Invaders drew fairly well, but fell victim to still not drawing "enough" to maintain salaries for competitive players after bigger markets got absorbed into the NPSL.

The Canton-Akron Indians moved to Akron because the city of the Canton didn't want to help with stadium improvements (to a 7 year old stadium) to meet stricter Major League criteria for it's Minor League stadiums.

DFWCC
07-07-2011, 12:12 PM
With the Cavs owning the club its their dollar. That being said
I think a break even point att wise is about 2500 per game.
Of course there are variables such as sponser $, logo sales.
concessions and arena contract.
The Cavs will have the deeper pockets to absorb start up losses
but with any out of town owner they could easily move to Dayton
Yngtn or Akron itself.
For the fans in Canton I hope it never happens.
Again good luck to your new team.

LightningMan
07-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Gulf Coast -- No. It's in the Arizona league now. (Rookie)
Yep. Forgot about the move to Goodyear.

Dominican -- Not that I'm aware of.
I checked this morning and yes, the Indians do field a team called the Indians in the Dominican Summer League.

tops804
07-07-2011, 01:10 PM
Actually, I missed another basketball team.

The ABA's Ohio Aviators played in Canton for one season (sort of) 2005-06.

Little press coverage, and no self-promotion doomed this team from start up.

The Man, The Myth
07-07-2011, 04:33 PM
The one thing this team has that no other team had in Canton is Dan Gilbert and his obsession with winning a championship before you know who does.

Ken, Steelheads fan
07-07-2011, 07:11 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again. Youngstown didn't make any sense for location of a franchise from day one.
http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=19035

The Youngstown area isn't simply a depressed area, it's a super depressed area.

SeaToby
07-17-2011, 11:00 PM
The fourth estate have printed Canton had the prized weekend dates available in a nice older arena whereas Youngstown didn't in a new arena. The Cavs will update the locker rooms, and buy a new basketball court.

I am sure if Canton supports the franchise sufficiently, the Cavs will update the audio-video equipment as well if only to generate more advertising dollars. Keep in mind the D-League is going to be supported by the NBA, many of the D-league teams are owned by their parent clubs.

The NBA wishes to develop finally a stable minor league for the long term, as they benefit despite the costs of a development league. Presently free agents cost more. Its a tall order, but the NBA clubs have the resources to succeed. At least Canton knows their minor league basketball club operator isn't a fly by night operation.

Furthermore, the D-League has noticed that their clubs draw better in a market not dominated by a major college program. Canton fits the bill... Devoid winter entertainment in a nice sized market with a quality arena, not necessarily new. Portland, Frisco, and RGV have drawn well for minor league basketball... Whereas Austin has drawn well in suburban Cedar Park not within a mile of UT... Unfortunately, Albuquerque has a major college program as did Orem nearby...