st paul saints left the northern league...

[mrcool92501]

to join a new league.any1 have further info .

[nlfan]

This action has already become the #1 topic (http://p200.ezboard.com/fnlfanmessageboardfrm1.showMessage?topicID=364.top ic) in the nlfan.com forums. Everyone from around the NoL is talking about it and quoting all the newspapers and other sources for information.

To get the best list of links on the subject, OSC's Northern League page (http://www.oursportscentral.com/sports/?display=&l_id=46) is probably the best single place to go.

[UK]

This will be a year of transition for Indy league baseball. I think the landscape will look very different than it currently does.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Sioux Falls and Lincoln left the Northern League also.

I don't think much is going to change for any of the parties involved in the near future. St. Paul is still going to pack Midway Stadium, Sioux Falls is still going to struggle to place butts in seats, and Lincoln is going to average 4,500 fans per game as usual. It doesn't matter which league they are in. Fans (the ticket buyers) just don't care which league they are in.

In the distant future:
If St. Paul gets a new stadium and if Lincoln developes a rivalry with AAA Omaha and if Sioux Falls duplicates the success of the Sioux Falls CBA basketball team...somehow, then this move will be seen as a masterful stroke of genius. Right now it seems like nothing more than a lateral move.

[Liebo]

Ken, it certainly could be considered a lateral move, but I'd say that you are missing some very large points as well as the other dominoes that have to fall.

First, the move is shocking because there really was no hint of it coming. The Saints especially have been a cornerstone of the Northern League from its inception, and the Saltdogs have been a very successful addition. Considering the plans for the Northern League to expand to 16 teams, I think we can all say this came out of the blue.

Secondly, you could confirm the move is lateral, except there is no definitive destination league! In fact, we don't even have enough franchises yet for a league. Of course, we could argue from the little we have heard of their intentions that the league will be of a similar competitive level. That the movement has been led by Mike Veeck and a pair of Goldklang Group teams might give more credence to their plans. But the fact remains that we have no idea whether it's a lateral move competitively. And yes, fans don't go because they are looking for a pitcher with a plus-slider with good tilt or a second baseman with spray hitting ability, but these fans are somewhat savvy. A noticeable dropoff in competition level might hurt if only because the team brought it upon itself by bolting an established league to form a new one without demonstrating anything more than nebulous philosophical differences.

Then comes the fact that this move is only the beginning of the changes. (With the turmoil in the Central League and the arrival of the United League, you might say this is a continuation of the changes.) While only three teams have announced their departure from the Northern League, I think we can all reasonably conclude that the new circuit they will all participate in will need more than just three clubs. So, we should expect more defections, most likely from the Northern League but maybe also the Frontier or Central. It's tough to say exactly where this is going, since there is so much up in the air in indy ball right now. So it is understandable that this is generating excitement and attention, and further changes are afoot in the near future, not the distant future.

Finally, you refer to a possible rivalry between Lincoln and Omaha. I might be missing something on this, but I don't see how such a rivalry can be cultivated. Comparisons can be made, but not really the development of a rivalry. Omaha is an affiliate club playing at the Triple-A level; no matter what league the three defecting teams join or form, it will still be independent. (And before you say it's possible to become affiliated, no, it's not; affiliated leagues are prohibited from expanding without new major league parents to affiliate with as well as major league approval. For the three teams to "become" affiliated, the owners of all three would have to purchase existing affiliated teams and move them into their markets and either move or abandon their independent entries. And all of that is subject to three levels of approvals.) Rules for affiliated teams also preclude them from even playing exhibition games against indy teams. So while comparisons might be made, I would hardly expect it to turn into a rivalry.

I don't mean to criticize your post. On the contrary, I am happy to see others here express their opinions and generate some give and take. I just thought I'd offer my observations based on your post.

[nlfan]

Aside from the fact this subject has been explored at length elsewhere (follow the link provided above). I think Ken's still pretty much on the mark.but these fans are somewhat savvy.Some are, but the vast majority aren't. It's particularly bad in St. Paul where the "average fan" (which Ken is careful to identify in most of his posts) is usually too distracted by all the other things going on around the ballpark. Things did get pretty bad on the field. Turnstile counts went down. But the Saints still reported sellout crowds and were never in anything close to financial trouble.A noticeable dropoff in competition level might hurt if only because the team brought it upon itself by bolting an established league to form a new one without demonstrating anything more than nebulous philosophical differences.First of all the plans for the new league are all about improving the quality of play. That would mean improved competition. Between the possibly plans for a higher salary cap and more veterans the NoL is possibly at more risk for a decline in competitive level.

BTW: Telling a RailCats fan about competitive level is somewhat insulting. Between the all road season of '02 and the two years before Tagert, RailCats fans know a great deal about poor quality teams.I think we can all reasonably conclude that the new circuit they will all participate in will need more than just three clubs. So, we should expect more defections, most likely from the Northern League but maybe also the Frontier or Central.Again, we've covered this ground thoroughly in the nlfan discussions (where there have been over 200 posts since "Black Thursday") but the basics are:

1. The new league will have a minimum of 6 teams (quoting Veeck) and probably 8 (quoting Goldklang in Baseball America)

2. There will be no more defections from the NoL-9. There have been repeated official announcements from the league office and re-confirmations by the teams.

3. The Central League is a likely source for additional teams. With the UL taking one team and another going dark --there are some successful teams in need of a league (or just more teams). The Frontier League is unlikely since I believe the markets are too small for a calibre of ball that's targeted to be "above" the NoL.Finally, you refer to a possible rivalry between Lincoln and OmahaOn this one you can forgive Ken. Outside of Nebraska the ongoing saga of the Omaha Royals and Rosenblatt isn't well known. As answered elsewhere, this isn't going to happen.

[Liebo]

The point of my post was to say that there is a lot left to be determined. When you step from an established league to create a new one, you might have a goal of creating a circuit with a higher level of play, but there's no telling if it will work out that way.

As for the rest of your reply, it appears you might have been a little off the mark yourself. According to reports tonight (Tuesday), Sioux City is not going to remain with the Northern League and is instead bolting to join the other three.

It will be an interesting off-season. So far, it's proven to defy our expectations.

[nlfan]

Yes. The "solid NoL-9" weren't. :oops:

Of course that came after repeated announcments from the NoL front office. That's what I get for "trusting" their announcements. :)

It will be a very interesting winter in the independent leagues. The NoL has "contracted" (by a 1/3 so far), the CBL is struggling (contracted by 2 teams) and a new league is starting (with 4 teams so far).

The "grand" vision of the new league would introduce more change and cooperation/support between leagues. That would mean a lot more changes than what some of us (in the NoL) have been used to.

More news is expected at the end of the week.

[nlfan]

The Saint Paul Saints have rejoined the American Association (of Independent Professional Baseball) after a 45 year absence.

Well, actually, it's more like the Saints recreated the AA over them. Now if only there were some Millers of Minneapolis to play. :)

[UMBAUGH]

How are leagues going to exist with so few teams. It seems sort of ridiculus. I'm not too familiar with the NoL but 8 teams seems stupid.

[nlfan]

I'm not too familiar with the NoL but 8 teams seems stupid.

An 8-team league isn't stupid on its own. In fact the NoL had only 8 teams for several years ('96-'01). The differences are that (a) the schedule is now up to 96 games and (b) the teams are widely scattered with KCK over 500 miles from its nearest opponent.

The (new) AA is currently at 4 teams but the talk seems seriously set to add six more to make it a 10-team league. With Miles Wolff's activity now public (and apparently going back for over a month) it's a fair bet that some of those teams will be from the CBL.

A lot more will be known after the AAB meeting in Dallas on Oct 23-24. Maybe NoL commissioner Mike Stone will show up since it's near his home.

[Liebo]

Eight teams is stupid? OK, so then let's take a look at which leagues would be classified as "stupid":

Texas League, Double-A affiliated
Carolina League, Single-A affiliated
Northwest League, Single-A Short-season affiliated
Pioneer League, Rookie affiliated
Atlantic League, independent
Central League, independent
Can-Am League, independent
Golden Baseball League, independent

That's a long list of stupidity. Keep in mind, too, that the league you defamed has a schedule of less than 100 games. The Texas and Carolina Leagues play 140-game schedules.

And as nlfan pointed out, it wasn't long ago that the Northern League was comprised of eight teams, or the Frontier League, for that matter.

You might argue that it's not very smart to have a league that's too small, but I'd counter by saying that one that's too big is even more of a problem. Too big can refer to geography, where far-flung teams create travel issues and drive up the cost of operating in the league. Too big can also mean too many teams, where the league accepts any suitor with the money to pay expansion fee, whether or not the club is satisfactorily capitalized, has a proper facility or plans to construct one, or even has a suitable market. I am not going to argue that either case of overexpansion was an issue for the Northern League, but it's not hard to find documented cases of both. I'd much rather see a smaller, stronger, more stable league than one with an eye toward rapid or prolonged expansion.

[BruceB]

You can get by with a four-team league, but six is better and eight is almost perfect. If you look at the history of baseball, you'll see that eight-team leagues were the norm for decades. The majors and the high minors were almost uniformly eight-teamers.

To concentrate on the number of teams a league has misses the point. Frankly, I'd rather have a team in a league with four solid franchises and no weak sisters than a 12-team league with three or four shaky clubs. If you have a lousy franchise among you, they can bring down both the value and perception of the rest of the league. I used to harp on the USBL having too many basketball teams for this reason. They had pretty solid franchises in Dodge City and Enid, but stuck teams in markets like St. Louis and Brooklyn that had the numbers but no interest in minor league hoops. Some of those teams were horribly run, too, which REALLY created some financial and image problems for the rest of the USBL.

If Veeck and Goldklang want to go their own way, good luck to them. They are probably more responsible for sowing the seeds leading to any success indy ball has had the past dozen years or so, and deserve credit along with Miles Wolff for fostering the indy movement when nobody thought it had a chance. I only hope Mike and Marv understand that whatever league they may form will only be as strong as its weakest link, and that they choose to limit it to only demonstrably capable ownerships as opposed to just pocketing anybody's entry fees and presiding over a circus. Somehow, I think they will.

[nlfan]

The current four teams in the AA will be joined by about six more if reports are correct. Throughout all of this the AA has maintained that the (original 3 now) four teams will have more joining them. The AA holds its first meetings this Sunday and Monday. From there they can make a lot of formal/official announcements such as making Miles Wolff the Commissioner (something you can't do unless you have a meeting).

[Hollywood]

Hello, indy baseball fans!

This was my first reaction to this story on NLfan.com: Lots of this makes no sense.

The Lincoln owner talked about travel being a concern. Then we hear that this new league wants inter-league play. Hey, would that not mean MORE travel?

Raising the salary cap? Why would the Canaries want to move to a league with a higher cap?

Management? Stone announced he's leaving.

It is hard for the remaining NLB teams to scrape together a 10th team. It is harder for the defectors to scrape up 3. Especially within their geographic area. There has been much discussion about this at NLfan.com. Basically, nobody from the departing teams has convinced me that the move makes any sense. I believe that the only explanation is ego and hubris.

I think the Saints want their own league with a few satellite teams. As the NLB kept expanding the Saints became an ever-smaller voice. There was also a decent likelihood that the Saints owners (who have a minority share in Sioux Falls) would be forced to sell their conflicting ownership.

My questions:

What I would like to know is what do you people think of the Central League? And is this United League legit? Since Wolff is going over to the AAIPB, and apparently burying the Central League in the process, is there a potential law suit from any CL franchise that does not want to go along with this?

Some speculation:

There was also some talk about NLB taking over leases in Sioux Falls and Sioux City. In the final analysis, it appears that neither team had guaranteed leases for 2006 but were able to convince local authorities to stick with them. NLB probably thought that they could kill the AAIPB before it ever got off the ground has this manoeuver been successful.

IAE, I suspect that in future seasons NLB will do whatever they can to move into the Twin Cities and will try to bring back Lincoln. Otherwise, there are some potential markets out there but most of those would require further expansion of the geographic limits of the league.

[nlfan]

Basically, nobody from the departing teams has convinced me that the move makes any sense. I believe that the only explanation is ego and hubris. And anyone who's read what Hollywood's written there knows that he's got an "axe of his own" to grind and has been predicting/supporting a lot of vengence, claiming "he has no animosity" while posting a long serious of innuendos (prefaced by the "isn't it odd that..."

The idea that people like Veeck might leave a league that openly supported a promotion where 3 regulation innings of a baseball game or have regular suggestions of "playing championship games at a 'neutral site' such as Winnipeg" just won't win over conspiracy theorists. He's also one of those with a conspiracy theory about the Goldklang Group and the idea that --in spite of winning the NoL championship last season-- the "Saints want a league of their own." Which seems more likely for the Goldeyes whose fans haven't been in the post season the past couple of years and are intensely frustrated with delusions of being the "Yankees" (when they're more like the Braves).NLB probably thought that they could kill the AAIPB before it ever got off the ground has this manoeuver been successful. Of course this play by the NoL was done entirely in the press and was unsuccessful and showed league officials were not aware of the status of those teams leases but decided to make their case in Sioux Falls (then suggest that it all was decided when they discovered there was no Sioux City lease and NoL legal commitment). Hollywood has little to say about this or the other irregularities recently discussed about last year's player contracts (apparently with "quirks" that essentially made most NoL players free agents already by not correcting a critical date).I suspect that in future seasons NLB will do whatever they can to move into the Twin Cities and will try to bring back Lincoln. Otherwise, there are some potential markets out there but most of those would require further expansion of the geographic limits of the league.For those who've not read the many answers to the idea that the NoL --or anyone else-- will get a team in the Twin Cities remember that Hollywood lives in Winnipeg and is far, far removed from the realities of the numerous stadium debates that have raged here for about a decade. The revenge motive, though possibly felt by the NoL or some owners, has a fine (but misguided) spokesman in Hollywood.

As for the CBL, tomorrow (Monday 24.Oct.05) will likely end a lot of speculation about what the AA will do next especially with the FW Cats already mentioning "big news" for tomorrow. Hollywood knows this but seems to be looking for more support since his primary soapbox (and mine) has not supported him. As with many in the NoL (including myself), we aren't as well versed in what other leagues are doing in part because the NoL ownership has had a "let them come to us" mentality that sent Miles Wolff (and the NeL) out of the league in '02. That the AA owners might want to follow this "vision" of baseball instead "business as usual" is something that Hollywood will not consider.