Ottawa Council ready to shut down the return of Can-Am baseball

[Marcelo]

An Ottawa city staff report is promoting the demise of professional baseball in Ottawa by recommending the conversion of the baseball stadium into an “outdoor concert venue” and selling the parking lot to developers.

There is something tremendously fishy in this report, since it mentions that “there is little or no current evidence that a purpose built baseball stadium can be financially sustained in the long term by reliance on a professional or semi-professional baseball being the predominant use for the facility”. However, at the same it says that an outdoor concert venue with NO PARKING is financially viable. In addition, the report says that the stadium is “a prime location for mixed-use development – a combination of homes, stores and offices.

In my view the city council is planning to make the baseball stadium fail as a justification for selling the whole area to developers later on.

I hope the baseball fans in Ottawa form a group to lobby for keeping the baseball stadium for baseball use.

See an article about this issue on the link below.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Make+stadium+multi+facility+council+told/4540044/story.html

[OttawaBallFan]

It seems this council wants to do everything in its power to make sure baseball doesn't work in this city. The developers are in on this too because they want the land so they are lobbying for this.

However, the Fat Cat owners won't let this happen. In fact, it seems that the votes which count want baseball and are supporting to the tune of over 4000 season tickets. It appears there will be 6000 on opening night May 21st.

If the city would just wake up and see we have a first class facility and the only reason we don't have a pro team is that no owner will want to operate one for one or two years without a guarantee of a longer term lease. There's other condos and big box stores. There's only one baseball stadium. Makes sense to me to keep the unique facility which helps improve quality of life rather than tear it down for things that can go elsewhere.

> In my view the city council is planning to make the baseball stadium fail
> as a justification for selling the whole area to developers later on.

You're not the only one. The Fat Cats think that too. But like I said, they're doing all they can not to let that happen.

[BerkshireFan]

I was at a summer collegiate game in Nashua, New Hampshire last week and the guy sitting in front of me was telling me that the locals root for the Portland Sea Dogs (Red Sox affiliate) when then play the nearby Manchester Fisher Cats. My dad confirmed this story when I asked him about it back at my parents' house.

I get that New Hampshire is Red Sox territory, but the fan in me says root for the hometown team. I never had a problem with rooting against the Staten Island Yankees. My team is in the Bronx, not Staten Island.

Anyway, I know this is all tenuous in its relationship to the Can-Am, but apparently there is some concern among Manchester fans that this disloyalty could cost them the team if an equally atractive stadium and market opens up elsewhere. I doubt that would be the deciding factor, but I can't say as I'd blame the Blue Jays if they opted for a Triple-A facility in Ottawa where there is no confusion among the fans as to where their loyalties lie.

In short, one more reason (weak as it is) why Ottawa makes more sense in the Eastern League than in the Can-Am.

[GoCyclones!]

You bring up an interesting point, Berk, and I'm interested in the ottawa situation from a distance but I don't think that's a unique case. NH is still in the top five in attendance. So I'm sure they're rooting for the Baby Jays on most nights. I'm sure it irked a lot of folks of Norwich, CT when their AA team was affiliated with the Yankees, right in the middle of Red Sox nation.

I've thought about this Ottawa situation some and an Eastern League team can be had although I'm not sure it's the best fit. The nearest team would be Binghamton (whom they would probably replace in the league) five hours away. The lowest drawing team (Bingo) is averaging 3,000; I'm not sure Ottawa would do much better than that. They didn't as the Lynx. It's still not great weather in the Northeast in April and May, I imagine Ottawa can't be better during those months.

Although it's a big park I think the best fit would be a short-season NYPL team, however, the Jays are tied into Vancouver for four years. So it wouldn't be right away. I always thought the Jays going to Las Vegas was a prelude to another move, ideally Buffalo, but they really seem to be making a push in Canada for fan support. So maybe something is in the works. Although no IL teams are for sale now.

[OttawaBallFan]

>> I'm not sure Ottawa would do much better than that.

I don't share that view Cyclone. Sure, if we did get the baby Jays, the first couple of years there may be 5000 coming to games. But I think this town is showing that 2500 is more to be expected. That's what the Lynx did, the Rapidz and even the Fat Cats. Those 4000 season tickets mentioned earlier were giveaways to little league players and obviously, they haven't shown up as expected. The idea was that the parents would pay for their ticket.

So is 2500-3000 enough even for an A-ball team? I don't know but don't think so. I know the lowest attendance right now in the Eastern League is Binghamton with 3030. Can Ottawa market to do better? Yes, but won't be easy.

By the way, there was a benefit game yesterday announced only a week ago featuring Blue Jays alumni. I couldn't attend but there were apparently only two ex-Jays and the game was attended by 800 people.

I still think this town would be better off with a Can-Am team.

[GoCyclones!]

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. If Binghamton is currently averaging 3,000 and you estimate the Ottawa average to be 2,500, how would you expect them to do better? I'd like for it to work but if I own a franchise would I move from a struggling market to another uncertain one, five hours from my closest opponent, maybe more if Bingo leaves? 3,000 is about the average in the NYPL and the nearest opponents would be four hours away in Burlington, VT and Auburn, NY. I'm a NYPL fan and I like the city of Ottawa, so I'd like to make that road trip and I hope it happens but I'm not as optimistic. Good luck though! So is the Can-Am officially finished with Ottawa?

[OttawaBallFan]

I think I mistyped something or did not make my point correctly. But essentially, we agree that Ottawa is a big risk to have a team in affiliated ball. So an owner moving his team here may not fare much better and runs the risk of doing a bit worse.

I for one would not want affiliate ball back in Ottawa. People here say it would work if we were affiliated with the Jays. I say, we were affiliate with the Expos and look what happened. It needs to be a short season league just because of April-May weather. I think it's best to have a team of our own, not guys being brought up and down every week. With the Rapidz, there was the start of the sense of "our team" near the end of the season. I'm seeing it with the Fat Cats too.

Is the Can-am finished with Ottawa? I don't know, but I don't think so. The opportunity is still there but could be a year or two down the road. What's not helping is this talk of getting a team affiliated with the Jays but frankly, I don't see this happening although it's getting some people excited.

[Texasrangers13]

I could see Ottawa being a lot like Richmond in the sense that it may benefit from dropping a level (or even going independent). My only question is what would the costs be? Lease? Travel?

[ottawasportsfan2010]

I think I mistyped something or did not make my point correctly. But essentially, we agree that Ottawa is a big risk to have a team in affiliated ball. So an owner moving his team here may not fare much better and runs the risk of doing a bit worse.

I for one would not want affiliate ball back in Ottawa. People here say it would work if we were affiliated with the Jays. I say, we were affiliate with the Expos and look what happened. It needs to be a short season league just because of April-May weather. I think it's best to have a team of our own, not guys being brought up and down every week. With the Rapidz, there was the start of the sense of "our team" near the end of the season. I'm seeing it with the Fat Cats too.

Is the Can-am finished with Ottawa? I don't know, but I don't think so. The opportunity is still there but could be a year or two down the road. What's not helping is this talk of getting a team affiliated with the Jays but frankly, I don't see this happening although it's getting some people excited.

Under the expos attendance was very good there the days when they did avg 10.000 per game its after the expos left is when the trouble started.As with that jays i really can see them having a farm team in ottawa it would benifit them big time having a team thats very close so to speak and with a big jays following in ottawa it could bring us back to the expos days.

[ottawasportsfan2010]

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. If Binghamton is currently averaging 3,000 and you estimate the Ottawa average to be 2,500, how would you expect them to do better? I'd like for it to work but if I own a franchise would I move from a struggling market to another uncertain one, five hours from my closest opponent, maybe more if Bingo leaves? 3,000 is about the average in the NYPL and the nearest opponents would be four hours away in Burlington, VT and Auburn, NY. I'm a NYPL fan and I like the city of Ottawa, so I'd like to make that road trip and I hope it happens but I'm not as optimistic. Good luck though! So is the Can-Am officially finished with Ottawa?

Ottawa is avg 2500 in a league where teams avg 100-300 fans a game some owners may look at that is a good sign of strong support.

[OttawaBallFan]

The main reason the Fat Cats are attracting 2500 a game (actually 2100 this year, 2300 last year) is because they have to. I talked briefly to the Hamilton team owner when they were here last weekend. He liked the fact that Ottawa is running the team as if it's a pro team. Remember it's not pro but semipro, amateur really. The other teams in the IBL do almost nothing to promote their teams. Well again, the reason is that the Fat Cats have to. No way they could pay the rent otherwise let alone all the other expenses they have.

So to me comparing the Fat Cats attendance to other teams in the IBL means nothing. However, it shows what can be accomplished if we had a pro team. Remember all those saying nobody would come to see the Fat Cats (and Rapidz too)? Well, if we can get 2000+ to an amateur league game, we should be able to do the same, better even with good marketing, for a pro league team. The Rapidz got 2300 with little preparation time. That's the real sign of support. But a potential owner, of an affiliated or independent league team, has to be aware that this city has shown the last 7 years or so that, from late May to end of August, 2500 is what he can expect, 3000 tops, unless he has some marketing magic nobody has yet figured out. Enough for the NYPL? I don't know. I figure enough for the Can-Am.

You have it wrong OSF2010 about the Lynx Expos years. First year in 1993, average was 9772, then dropped to 8929 and 6888. The last year affiliated with the Expos in 2002 it was 3034 and they left Montreal in 2004, although the writing was on the wall for a while. The first two years were really the novelty factor. 57 sellouts and only two (and a couple other close ones with over 10k) the other 13 years. Attendance had nothing to do with being affiliated with the Expos. Having a Blue Jays affiliate would not make it better. This area was more Expos fans than Jays although it's changed now it seems but I just don't think 4000 to 5000 people would show up over the long run based on just that fact.

[Texasrangers13]

Again though if they need 2500 just to breakeven as a semi-pro team, I would have to imagine that they would need a lot more to cover the added expense of salaries at the professional level.

[OttawaBallFan]

Some info regarding Ottawa and the Can-Am. Miles Wolff interviewed on CKAC radio last night. Some tidbits:

"The Can-Am league would really want to be in the Ottawa-Gatineau market. But if there was the ability to get a ball park in Gatineau closer to 5000 in capacity. Newer ballpark. While the Ottawa ball is beautiful, it's too large and difficult to run. The thought of a new ballpark in Gatineau is really encouraging."

Host: "From what we learn, there are some people more than interested in building a new park in Gatineau. How much do you know and are you part of the project?"

Wolff: "No, but I've heard about it and would really like to be part of it."

Host: "What would be the deadline?"

Wolff: "If we can get it by 2013 that would be excellent. That's what we are heading for in our goal for Montreal."

"It's been so difficult in Ottawa to get anything going there. The failure of the Lynx has hurt everything. I think Gatineau could be the place for the league."

"It has been frustrating over the last few years to get started in Ottawa."

Here's the link. The article is in French but the audio clip is in English.

http://www.ckac.com/baseball/nouvelles/la-ligue-can-am-a-montreal-et-a-gatineau-88695.html

So, I guess Miles is still thinking of the Ottawa region but trying to come from a different direction. Makes me wonder what would happen to our stadium. Helps or hinders getting an affiliated team? Not that's what I want personally. A tactic to get Ottawa council to get on board for the Can-Am?

[ottawasportsfan2010]

The main reason the Fat Cats are attracting 2500 a game (actually 2100 this year, 2300 last year) is because they have to. I talked briefly to the Hamilton team owner when they were here last weekend. He liked the fact that Ottawa is running the team as if it's a pro team. Remember it's not pro but semipro, amateur really. The other teams in the IBL do almost nothing to promote their teams. Well again, the reason is that the Fat Cats have to. No way they could pay the rent otherwise let alone all the other expenses they have.

So to me comparing the Fat Cats attendance to other teams in the IBL means nothing. However, it shows what can be accomplished if we had a pro team. Remember all those saying nobody would come to see the Fat Cats (and Rapidz too)? Well, if we can get 2000+ to an amateur league game, we should be able to do the same, better even with good marketing, for a pro league team. The Rapidz got 2300 with little preparation time. That's the real sign of support. But a potential owner, of an affiliated or independent league team, has to be aware that this city has shown the last 7 years or so that, from late May to end of August, 2500 is what he can expect, 3000 tops, unless he has some marketing magic nobody has yet figured out. Enough for the NYPL? I don't know. I figure enough for the Can-Am.

You have it wrong OSF2010 about the Lynx Expos years. First year in 1993, average was 9772, then dropped to 8929 and 6888. The last year affiliated with the Expos in 2002 it was 3034 and they left Montreal in 2004, although the writing was on the wall for a while. The first two years were really the novelty factor. 57 sellouts and only two (and a couple other close ones with over 10k) the other 13 years. Attendance had nothing to do with being affiliated with the Expos. Having a Blue Jays affiliate would not make it better. This area was more Expos fans than Jays although it's changed now it seems but I just don't think 4000 to 5000 people would show up over the long run based on just that fact.

My point was the first few years they did ok attendance wise yes it did decrease over time for some reason as with the jays i think they would do ok maybe not great but i think they would have decent attendance.As for the fat cats yes they need good attendance but to have the fans come out is a sign there is a taste for baseball still.

[Marcelo]

I attended many Fat Cats games in 2011. The last one I was present, in August 13th, the attendance was 4,108 and the crowd was really into the game, cheering loudly and making a big celebration at the end with the 7-3 win. There is a lot of enthusiasm for professional baseball in Ottawa (the Fat Cats is run like a pro team) and in my opinion, with a little bit of marketing and promotion, a pro team can do well here, be it Can-Am or Eastern League.

The problem we have in Ottawa is not attendance, but the fact that some city councillors and city staff have the real state developers’ interests in mind and are working towards tearing down the stadium to make room for condos and commercial buildings. Fortunately, there are also city councillors who are on the baseball side and want to bring a pro team to Ottawa. The media in Ottawa is constantly reporting the progress on the negotiations to bring a double A team to the city, the last one stating that representatives from the double A team, city councilors, and mayor’s office staff met at City Hall to further discus the deal. One city councilor made the following statements to the media: “Negotiations are moving ahead very quickly on Ottawa obtaining a Double-A minor pro baseball franchise” and “There is a high likelihood there will be a competitive offer to locate a team here and use the stadium”. In addition to that, there is another possibility: the Fat Cat owners already sent the City of Ottawa a proposal for a 15 year lease of the stadium and stated their goal of bringing in a pro team.

[OttawaBallFan]

OSF, yes I definitely think there is a taste for baseball in this city. And there can be decent attendance for an affiliated team in a short season league. I just don't think it will matter which team we would be affiliated with. It would be nice for it to be the Jays but even if that is so, doesn't mean the Jays would remain here forever. Affiliations change all the time.

Marcello, fat chance the city will go for a 15 year lease. It's what is needed to get a pro team but I just don't see it happening. The city offered maximum 4 years to the Rapidz. That would be enough except that four years can come around awfully fast.