Attendance

[jwalters]

Hartford- 14,000 and change is the leagues largest ever.

Las Vegas- 9100 the Locos paultry attendance from last year has actually decreased!

There is already enough football in the fall. Consider this, I really like pizza but in Newburgh, IN there are 6 different pizza places and about 20 in Evansville. As much as I like pizza I have never gotten to all the places. Now that doesnt mean that the places that I have not visited arent good. It just means that there are so many I cant make it around to them all. Same thing with football in the fall.

On Saturdays, unless there is a super important game, or Vanderbilt or Hawaii are playing, I will sit in front of the t.v. and flip through the football games. Now, this is fun, but it shows that there are just too many options even for me. I am honestly the kind of guy that will ignore an opportunity to have sex if there is an important game on. So imagine how easily distracted the average viewer is in todays society of my space, facebook, twitter, reality tv, and other mind sucking vices. To borrow a phrase from Bud on married with children "the ufl and all other levels of football are trying to poor a gallon's worth of entertainment into a shot glass of an attention span."

If they go to the spring the self-described football faanatics will be able to concentrate on the league and the casual fans will view this as an alternative to baseball, which is horribly boring. I really expected at least 25,000 in Hartford but even that is not enough to sustain the league. Even after a year of build up in Hartford only 14,000 shows that there is simply not enough interest in the fall. This is sad but true. I really think the best thing to do is suspend what remains of the current season and announce that everything will resume in March or April. Come out be honest and admit that you made a mistake and then begin building on the appropriate foundation.

[preeths]

As the only outdoor football option in the spring, I have to agree the UFL would do better. There's just so much football in the fall.

[Hockey]

I think they should just build the model where 9,000 fans is break even. These players should make only a little more then indoor football type money.

Your NOT going to get 25,000 anywhere. Why bother trying.

[NTE]

The thing is, I do like the "experience" of attending a football game, the BBQing, the drinking the tailgate party. If I lived in one of these cities and could get a season ticket for a couple hundred bucks, I'd do it, for the excuse to tailgate and watch football...even if it's not the absolute best football around.

[jwalters]

As far as pay goes the players are paid way too much for non-nfl. I'm not saying they aren's as good cause they are pretty darn good but Chris Greisen is making about $35,000 in this league as a backup and he made $16,000 as the leagues offensive mvp in the arena league. I think an outdoor league should use an updated version of the Hemmeter plan. The change I would make is instead of paying the players a percentage off the gross profit I would pay them off the net profit once a reserve was met. For instance with above Arena League expenses minus salaries you can run a league with an average attendance of 8,000. Make 8,000 the reserve, once that is met the players and gameday staff get a cut of the profit. The winning team gets a higher cut. Lets say 25% goes to commissions. The winning team would split 15% and the losers 10%. They would also draw commission from any merchandise sales on gameday and maybe concessions so long as the paid attendance reserve was met. Teams would also save money on workmens comp and unemployment insurance. For the players they have a true interest in getting better, being a part of the community, marketing, and winning. They really have unlimited earning potential and the owners/investors have very limited risks.

[super390]

I think an outdoor league should use an updated version of the Hemmeter plan.

Hooray for another fan of the Hemmeter plan. I think that if Hemmeter had run the WFL the first year they might have hung around for several seasons. By the time he was in charge the scandals had already ruined the TV deal.

It's too soon to say the UFL is doomed until we have some idea what the attendance is going to be in all 5 cities. The problem is that Omaha already looks to be the big winner just from their season ticket sales. It will probably break even in the new stadium next year. If the smallest markets have the biggest attendance, and Norfolk is coming next season, then the league is trapped in smaller markets for the sake of solvency and then it can't get a better TV deal. So it will survive, but it won't be what it could have been.

[logoguru]

You need to remember why this is a league in the first place: to take over when the NFL has a strike or lockout next season. They won't abandon the fall schedule until after the 2011 season.

With that said, I would like to see a strong spring league. I went to Sacramento Surge games and had a great time.
________
Glass Pipes (http://glasspipes.net/)

[tim2gehr]

Acroding to the UFL Homepage the Nighthawks have sold 24,000 tickets for the first game! Rosenblatt only holds 22,000 people, if they could they would sell more tickets and make it easily to 25k

http://www.ufl-football.com/news/omaha-nighthawks-announce-first-ever-sellout-united-football-league-history-home-opener


I think they should just build the model where 9,000 fans is break even. These players should make only a little more then indoor football type money.

Your NOT going to get 25,000 anywhere. Why bother trying.

[preeths]

But I don't think the UFL is in any way positioned to "take over" if and when the NFL strikes. They've abandoned their biggest markets from last year, and as someone else pointed out, their biggest success is coming in the smallest markets. You'd probably have to have several times the number of markets the UFL does to even make yourself a threat for a short time. From what I've seen, it looks more as if the UFL is much more interested in becoming a developmental league, eventually falling under the NFL's wing.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

But I don't think the UFL is in any way positioned to "take over" if and when the NFL strikes. They've abandoned their biggest markets from last year, and as someone else pointed out, their biggest success is coming in the smallest markets. You'd probably have to have several times the number of markets the UFL does to even make yourself a threat for a short time. From what I've seen, it looks more as if the UFL is much more interested in becoming a developmental league, eventually falling under the NFL's wing.

I agree but also large markets aren't the answer either look at the NFL right now there having trouble getting people off the couch at home with there high overpriced tickets in my opinion. This is a trend I don't see changing the landscape is different today even in the spring/summer I agree would be better but I don't see much of a difference in attendance there either. The 1980's USFL wasn't dealing with huge HD and 3-D TV Sets. The bigger problem today is sports the big four are overpriced with parking, tickets etc but that doesn't mean automatically fans are going to go to a alternate league alot are going to HD and 3-D TV on Mister Couch watching the big four putting the savings in there pocket.

It is easier and cheaper to buy merchandise and sit on the couch in front of a huge HD or 3-D TV set. I will speak for myself only the big four has priced me super fan out at about 2004. Am I still a huge fan yes. Do I go to games yes but there more in the MAC college football, IL baseball and minor pro sports like NLL ticket price level. Do I love the NFL, NHL, NBA and MLB yes I watch and purchase merchandise but it is a tv sport now like Hawaii Five-O or Survivor that is what the big 4 leagues have become.

This isn't changing and in my opinion the NFL and there greed is scared big time. Forget the labor issues that will be solved but getting fans to spend when it is easier to watch on HD TV isn't going to be solved at all. Even if they blackout you can't blackout all the games because the networks need tv content. Both sides need each other so the NFL and there greed is there bigest enemy not any UFL or and other league challenger. TV that made the NFL what it is today so far will now hurt them with live gate in the future in my opinion. But the NFL will survive but the UFL on the other hand might not we will see.

The UFL have problems like the other posters have said 10,000 to 15,000 isn't going to get it done. That works in MAC college FBS football because your not paying athletes one and two the state universities pick up what ever short fall in a given year. The UFL needs more fans in the seats weather it is fall or spring? I really wonder if the real problem is the tv set. As a fan I like the tv set it is cheaper and I am home with no traffic to fight. Going to a Buffalo Bills game your giving up 7 hours of your day that isn't including tailgating.

Think about it 2 hours to get to the stadium site with all the traffic and two hours home. Then 3 plus hours for the game itself. If you sit on Mister Couch your giving up 3 plus hours and your home to enjoy the other NFL games. I think this just my opinion Los Angeles football fans figured this out years ago and where ahead of the rest of us nation wide like California is ahead with trends usually.

Anyway if you can see all the games with NFL package and have all your favorite foods and snacks with no line for the wash room why bother anymore going live? It is cheaper to stay home and enjoy. Pro leagues and there greed have no one to blame but themselves and I don't feel sorry for them. How do the big four go forward basically passing it onto the customer at home. But great sellout live gate I think could be a thing of the past in the next ten years for the big four sports leagues.

You might need smaller arenas down the road which cost less to AC, Heat and are more energy efficient for the owner that looks full on tv and cost less to operate on a game to game basis just a thought. Like a live studio audience on a game show. So basically your small arena and stadium in minor league towns might someday be needed for your big larger cities for NFL, NHL, NBA and MLB games. Look MLB baseball stadiums got smaller not larger like the 1960's and 1970's in the 1990's and today. And guess who is paying for the change in the future sports market price? You guessed it we are the fan and taxpayer in my opinion. But all this change of the sports landscape won't help the UFL very much in my opinion. But the one thing I really like that the UFL is doing is putting there games on demand to watch when you have time for free that in my opinion is smart. Seeing the changing market place but how that pays the bills that is a problem in my opinion. But I give the UFL credit for trying but trying doesn't pay the bills unfortunately for the UFL. Let's Go Buffalo

[Sam Hill]

You need to remember why this is a league in the first place: to take over when the NFL has a strike or lockout next season.

That's an awful lot of money to spend (and to lose) on the off chance that it actually happens. Not to mention that the Omaha Nighthawks aren't going to miraculously become America's Team just because the Dallas Cowboys aren't playing.

Despite the rhetoric, the 2011 NFL lockout probably has less chance of actually happening than pretty much any work stoppage in sports history, just because of the potential money to be lost by both sides (though I believe the NFL will get its TV money regardless).

[Sam Hill]

I really think the best thing to do is suspend what remains of the current season and announce that everything will resume in March or April. Come out be honest and admit that you made a mistake and then begin building on the appropriate foundation.

And contracts be damned!

Nice to be naive, but when you have big-money TV contracts that say you'll deliver games on such and such a date and when you have contracts with players that say they'll be paid, short of folding up completely, it's highly unlikely that after two games they'll say "You know what? This guy thinks we should be playing in the spring, so let's just cash in our chips and try again in six months. Our bad."

There are a few schools of thought here:
1 - Spring would just naturally be the place for a league that's not the NFL, even though no one has really had proven, long-term, actual success at it (and I loved the USFL, too, but they lost scads of money and limped to the finish in 1985 with so much behind-the-scenes turmoil, you'd have been an idiot to call them successful).

2 - Fall is football season. People think football in the fall. By avoiding NFL markets, they provide fans in certain markets a team of their own, as they're unlikely to ever get the NFL. The problem there is there's so much football in the fall that's already entrenched, you get lost in the shuffle unless you consider success to be 10,000 people a game, which doesn't generate a lot of revenue if you hope to get decent players.

There are pros and cons to both schools of thought, and I'm not advocating one over the other. Just that it appears that both approaches are money-losers. Which is fine, if you're Bill Hambrecht and you've got money. Far be it for us to tell them how to best light fire to it in the street.

[Sam Hill]

I agree but also large markets aren't the answer either look at the NFL right now there having trouble getting people off the couch at home with there high overpriced tickets in my opinion.

They're having trouble selling tickets in some small markets, some markets where the product is incredibly overpriced and some markets with absolutely dreadful teams.

This is a trend I don't see changing

Maybe. My guess would be when the economy improves, there will still be sufficient numbers of people willing to get off the couch despite the fact that for many of us, the appeal of less expense and less hassle to stay home is a strong one.

Anyway if you can see all the games with NFL package and have all your favorite foods and snacks with no line for the wash room why bother anymore going live?

And, yet, nearly a million people did exactly that this past weekend.

[Aaronhere]

I think they should just build the model where 9,000 fans is break even. These players should make only a little more then indoor football type money.

Your NOT going to get 25,000 anywhere. Why bother trying.

Ok, they drew 23,967 tonight in Omaha...NOT quite 25,000, but still it was a great atmosphere and it was a fun game to watch.

'Model' UFL team Nighthawks post dramatic win
By ERIC OLSON (AP) – 11 minutes ago

OMAHA, Neb. — A dramatic fourth-quarter comeback led by a couple old NFL hands overshadowed Maurice Clarett's return to football.

The Omaha Nighthawks played their first game before a UFL-record crowd of 23,067 at Rosenblatt Stadium, with Jeff Garcia's 12-yard touchdown pass to Robert Ferguson with 6 seconds left producing a 27-26 win over the Hartford Colonials and a fantastic finish on the fledgling league's biggest night.

"This market has had something special about it from the day we announced it," UFL Commissioner Michael Huyghue said in the Nighthawks' locker room after the game. "They've really been a model franchise at every level. And then to have a game that played out the way it did, you couldn't have scripted it any better.

"If this is foreshadowing of what this league can be about, then we're really onto something special."

The five-team UFL is in its second season as a place for aging veterans and borderline NFL players looking for another chance in the big time.

Omaha already is the signature franchise. The game was declared a sellout Tuesday, and the attendance obliterated the league record by about 10,000.

What a show the fans saw. The Nighthawks trailed 23-10 after three quarters. Garcia, who was 23 of 39 for 226 yards, threw the second of his three TD passes from 2 yards to Devard Darling to make it 23-20.

After Ferguson caught the pass that tied it 26-all, and before Jeff Wolfert kicked the winning extra point, the former Green Bay receiver leapt into the end zone seats, a la the Lambeau Leap.

"If he didn't do it, I was going to do it," said Ahman Green, who was Ferguson's teammate in Green Bay.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i2xD6zPMgrVXFuBbdX2KHl7BFIPwD9IENS380
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/media/ALeqM5j1CRtEMdRljD0x3qAs9CSHZpl01w?size=l
The Hartford Colonials' Andre Dixon (26) carries the ball against the Omaha Nighthawks ' Stewart Schweigert (20), in Omaha, Neb., Friday, Sept. 24, 2010. With a roster full of NFL veterans such as Jeff Garcia and Ahman Green and an intriguing prospect named Maurice Clarett, the expansion Omaha Nighthawks of the United Football League have sold out their opener at 24,000-seat Rosenblatt Stadium.

[Sam Hill]

I think they should just build the model where 9,000 fans is break even. These players should make only a little more then indoor football type money.

Then 9,000 might get you to break even. Might. But then it eventually becomes a product you can't tout as anything worth seeing, and you can't get 9,000 a game.

Without figuring the actual numbers, I'm going to guess they'd still lose a bunch of money at 9,000 unless they paid guys next to nothing. And you can say what players "should" make, but, really....free market mean anything to you?

It's not as simple as just "build the model." Only people who've never actually built a model seem to think it's that easy.

[Hockey]

Then 9,000 might get you to break even. Might. But then it eventually becomes a product you can't tout as anything worth seeing, and you can't get 9,000 a game.

Without figuring the actual numbers, I'm going to guess they'd still lose a bunch of money at 9,000 unless they paid guys next to nothing. And you can say what players "should" make, but, really....free market mean anything to you?

It's not as simple as just "build the model." Only people who've never actually built a model seem to think it's that easy.

As a person who has managed minor league sports teams, its really not that complex to build a model if your ownership groups have money like the UFL does. The hard part is to be realistic.

What are you talking about free market? The free market does not favor the players having higher pay. Its about supply and demand. There are many football players in supply, there is little demand by the fans. "Should make", is about realistic long term profitability.

[logoguru]

You got to remember too that this is Mark Cuban money and not minor league Joe Shmoe money. These investors are in it for the long haul...whatever that time line may be. They will bleed money until it works because they can, but they will grow tired if they don't see a return on their investment at some point. I think I had read that in 5 years they expect it to break even, but I can't site that whatsoever.

Also, I'm watching the game tonight on VS. Go Sacto!!!
________
Dirty*****Latin cam (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/Dirty*****Latin)

[logoguru]

Watching it now! It looks packed! SACTO!

At 21,000 capacity...I would predict maybe 18,000. There are a few empty seats.

When I saw the Surge v Frankfurt they had the endzone stands which are removed now. I remember the attendance might have been around 15,000 for a regular season game in 1992. Sacramento has always supported these pro teams.
________
DEPAKOTE DEATH (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/depakote/)

[NTE]

I saw that Sacramento/Florida game on Versus. WOW! They had a lot of fans. That's what looked bad about the UFL last year, those 70,000 seat stadiums with 7,000 in attendance! They should find medium markets like Sacramento with 20,000 seat stadiums where people like football and have none. This seems like a market that wants football. Maybe medium size cities with no pro or big time college teams.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Sam Hill I got a question for you. Are you or were you in professional sports on a employee, management or ownership level? You seem to know alot from a economic level more so then just a fan like me and others on here.

Were you once or are you presently in the business of professional or minor league sports now or at one time. Also understand if you were that with some of us like myself we are only fans when you post we don't get the economics that are all involved like you do.

Keep that is mind some of us on here are only fans of a specific city. Like I root for teams from Buffalo, New York who has been a sports fan since 1975 and basically read alot. But at the end of the day I am only a fan that has never worked, owned or managed a professional or minor league sports franchise. So economics forget it I am in a fog outside of reading books like "Breaking the Game Wide Open" with Gary L. Davidson as a example because I followed his leagues growing up in the 1970's as a kid. Let's Go Buffalo

[super390]

Good God, Buffalo Fan, Davidson wrote a book? And you read it?

The more I read about the ABA, WHA and WFL, the more convinced I am that Davidson got less and less interested in fielding viable sports teams as he went from one sport to another, and more obsessed with creating a perfect Ponzi scheme. I saw quotes from an interview he gave during the WFL period where he indicated that one could simply manufacture franchises out of thin air and sell them for cash. In fact his practices in selling WFL franchises to friends and associates, who would then find sucker millionaires to dump them on, ensured that disaster would follow. Virgil Carter, the Chicago Fire qb, said his owner Tom Origer had explained that practice to him, but noted that the friends and associates got greedy: instead of unloading their franchises immediately, they thought that if they could struggle through one season on week-by-week earnings they could make far more money selling out in 1975.

Davidson should have realized the danger and acted quickly. Many of the mid-season franchise shifts were due to cash crunches because the owners simply lacked the reserves to withstand a few bad weeks. Incredibly, the WFL did not split gate revenues, so if you had 3 road games in a row, you made no money other than your TV checks. Davidson also moved the league's startup a year earlier to beat out another rumored league, and he created too many franchises to get good owners for so quickly. The TV ratings were fantastic, but the scandalous practices of the owners caused the TV sponsors to drop out and the TV contract wasn't renewed for 1975.

So I would say, Davidson was a bad source of advice on actual sports operating finances. Still, I will track down the book and see what dope he had people smoking to think it all would work, so thank you for the information.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Good God, Buffalo Fan, Davidson wrote a book? And you read it?

The more I read about the ABA, WHA and WFL, the more convinced I am that Davidson got less and less interested in fielding viable sports teams as he went from one sport to another, and more obsessed with creating a perfect Ponzi scheme. I saw quotes from an interview he gave during the WFL period where he indicated that one could simply manufacture franchises out of thin air and sell them for cash. In fact his practices in selling WFL franchises to friends and associates, who would then find sucker millionaires to dump them on, ensured that disaster would follow. Virgil Carter, the Chicago Fire qb, said his owner Tom Origer had explained that practice to him, but noted that the friends and associates got greedy: instead of unloading their franchises immediately, they thought that if they could struggle through one season on week-by-week earnings they could make far more money selling out in 1975.

Davidson should have realized the danger and acted quickly. Many of the mid-season franchise shifts were due to cash crunches because the owners simply lacked the reserves to withstand a few bad weeks. Incredibly, the WFL did not split gate revenues, so if you had 3 road games in a row, you made no money other than your TV checks. Davidson also moved the league's startup a year earlier to beat out another rumored league, and he created too many franchises to get good owners for so quickly. The TV ratings were fantastic, but the scandalous practices of the owners caused the TV sponsors to drop out and the TV contract wasn't renewed for 1975.

So I would say, Davidson was a bad source of advice on actual sports operating finances. Still, I will track down the book and see what dope he had people smoking to think it all would work, so thank you for the information.

First of all lighten up a little I read a book no big deal. Second where did I ever say in the post that I was into economics. Reread the post I said the opposite and I get a post blasting away. I am not a economics person I am a sports fan. Third I think Gary L. Davidson and Dennis Murphy were good for the sports fan. I ask what is the matter with sports fans today?

I don't and will never say rah rah isn't this is great the NFL, NHL, NBA and MLB as cartels. Sorry as a fan it stinks we can agree to disagree. But Davidson and Murphy were good for the sports fan. In Buffalo with Dennis Murphy RHI Roller Hockey International it was the some of the most fun I had a sports fan in a long time in 1994. I got to see the Buffalo Stampede RHI win the Murphy Cup Championship and paid $5 a game for tickets for players that put out because they were paid according to how they did and placed like Tennis and Golf.

My Buffalo Sabres NHL that I followed have won nothing in 39 years and are a small fortune to attend games for tickets. Sorry I am not down with that so we can agree to disagree.

And finally I read somewhere that Gary L. Davidson did well for himself after WFL, WHA and ABA with real estate etc. He is worth millions so yes I would take finacial advice from Gary L. Davidson it would be a honor to even be in the same room getting to talk to him so we disagree there to.

If I had one person in sports in my whole life that I could meet to talk to over dinner it would be Gary L. Davidson. If Gary L. Davidson is so bad why is it three leagues a news article I read a few years ago mentioned new potential leagues approaching Gary L. Davidson still to get involved and he decline after three decades out of sports new league still want his advice.

Gary L. Davidson wasn't all to blame for the WFL going under. When your a owner you take risk because that is what new leagues are risky businesses. Gary L. Davidson was selling a idea, a concept and business people bought in I don't feel sorry for them. Gary L. Davidson didn't shutdown the WFL get your facts straight he left on his own from the WFL.

Also the WFL owners are to blame in my opinion. They voted to shut it down they didn't have too if they didn't want too. The vote wasn't all in favor of shutting down. Also some of the owners were having problems with there main business remember the times like today our country was in a recession.

I say if those that wanted to go on hung on the WFL might be with us today. If I owned a WFL franchise and put that much money in I am staying open and not quitting. Even if I was the only one I would have kept the WFL name and team names buying the others out that wanted to fold for peanuts and reselling the idea in 1976.

The WFL didn't have to go under the owners choose to not go on. Remember with me I don't fold or quit anything. Gary L. Davidson had nothing to do with owners that choose the easy way out and quit. Also footnote one that wanted to go on was John Bassett of the Memphis Southmen/Grizzlies WFL teams wanted to go on and he ended up in the USFL with the Tampa Bay Bandits. Also if he would have live we might have spring football today. Because he disagreed with Donald Trump fall season and was going to start his own spring league. But sadly John Bassett got sick and passed away.

The WFL had plans for putting a new New York WFL team in the remodeled Yankees Stadium in 1976. If the WFL struggled through 1975 I think 1976 and beyond would have been better. The 1975 plan was a good one it just needed time. You and I disagree which is cool. In my opinion you and I would never agree on much because in your world you are a doubting thomas and see negative in everything that is new that doesn't work or is different which again is cool for you.

But don't act like the NFL, NHL, NBA and MLB never lost money and don't live on credit because you would be wrong. There is good and bad in everything business even what most would say are great today. The Buffalo Sabres NHL have already been bankrupt once.

I hope in the future there are more new sports league started up because that is what this country in my opinion is all about and makes it special and a greatest place to live in. We are a country of new ideas and starting things from nothing or off the kitchen table.

The day we aren't like that anymore in my opinion we are in trouble if we ever get like that. Where we sit around say the NFL is the greatest why bother starting any other football league? That isn't good if we think like that for everything in life in my opinion nothing new would be created or started. Some would disagree which again is fine it is there opinion but count me out of that thought process.

New businesses and ideas will be created everyday some will prosper and some will fail. But I won't bash a person for having creativity. You and I and I am sure alot of others on this board will disagree on this which is fine because that is what this country is all about. Someone will come up with another Silly Bands or the Pet Rock and make millions.

Don't knock that try to come up with something yourself if you don't like Gary L. Davidson. No one was forcing these investors hands they made the investment and losted. But if they were smart they would have saved there WFL team uniforms, game films and WFL footballs to sell on ebay. So these WFL owners were flawed people to in my opinion.

Because no one is perfect including me. And there is a lesson to be learned from the WFL that is don't throw things out like WFL footballs, game uniforms and old WFL tv broadcasts there worth alot of money today for collector's. I save alot of things because everything has value someday in my opinion. Let's Go Buffalo

[Sam Hill]

In Buffalo with Dennis Murphy RHI Roller Hockey International it was the some of the most fun I had a sports fan in a long time in 1994. I got to see the Buffalo Stampede RHI win the Murphy Cup Championship and paid $5 a game for tickets for players that put out because they were paid according to how they did and placed like Tennis and Golf.

My Buffalo Sabres NHL that I followed have won nothing in 39 years and are a small fortune to attend games for tickets. Sorry I am not down with that so we can agree to disagree.

Where are the Stampede today and where are the Sabres? Just checking.

If I had one person in sports in my whole life that I could meet to talk to over dinner it would be Gary L. Davidson.

I agree it would be fascinating, but he wouldn't be the number one choice.

If Gary L. Davidson is so bad why is it three leagues a news article I read a few years ago mentioned new potential leagues approaching Gary L. Davidson still to get involved and he decline after three decades out of sports new league still want his advice.

Good GOD, man, Gary Davidson is 76 years old. And which leagues? How far did they get? At this point, Davidson's track record is very interesting and his past very checkered. Hardly the guy I'd go to to start up a league in this day and age.

Gary L. Davidson wasn't all to blame for the WFL going under. When your a owner you take risk because that is what new leagues are risky businesses. Gary L. Davidson was selling a idea, a concept and business people bought in I don't feel sorry for them. Gary L. Davidson didn't shutdown the WFL get your facts straight he left on his own from the WFL.

Actually, he was forced out. How about you get YOUR facts straight. And is he like Gary US Bonds, you have to use his middle initial every time you refer to him?

I say if those that wanted to go on hung on the WFL might be with us today.

You are out of your mind. Out oh your mind.

If I owned a WFL franchise and put that much money in I am staying open and not quitting.

You have ZERO business sense, do you? Do you understand the concept of "cutting your losses?" It wasn't happening. John Bassett was the richest WFL owner (probably the smartest one, too) and he tried to get his team in the NFL and it didn't happen. So what did he do? Cut his losses and came back later in the USFL.

Even if I was the only one I would have kept the WFL name and team names buying the others out that wanted to fold for peanuts and reselling the idea in 1976.

What money would you have used to buy them out with?

The WFL didn't have to go under the owners choose to not go on. Remember with me I don't fold or quit anything. Gary L. Davidson had nothing to do with owners that choose the easy way out and quit. Also footnote one that wanted to go on was John Bassett of the Memphis Southmen/Grizzlies WFL teams wanted to go on and he ended up in the USFL with the Tampa Bay Bandits. Also if he would have live we might have spring football today. Because he disagreed with Donald Trump fall season and was going to start his own spring league. But sadly John Bassett got sick and passed away.

The WFL had plans for putting a new New York WFL team in the remodeled Yankees Stadium in 1976. If the WFL struggled through 1975 I think 1976 and beyond would have been better. The 1975 plan was a good one it just needed time. You and I disagree which is cool. In my opinion you and I would never agree on much because in your world you are a doubting thomas and see negative in everything that is new that doesn't work or is different which again is cool for you.

But don't act like the NFL, NHL, NBA and MLB never lost money and don't live on credit because you would be wrong. There is good and bad in everything business even what most would say are great today. The Buffalo Sabres NHL have already been bankrupt once.

I hope in the future there are more new sports league started up because that is what this country in my opinion is all about and makes it special and a greatest place to live in. We are a country of new ideas and starting things from nothing or off the kitchen table.

The day we aren't like that anymore in my opinion we are in trouble if we ever get like that. Where we sit around say the NFL is the greatest why bother starting any other football league? That isn't good if we think like that for everything in life in my opinion nothing new would be created or started. Some would disagree which again is fine it is there opinion but count me out of that thought process.

New businesses and ideas will be created everyday some will prosper and some will fail. But I won't bash a person for having creativity. You and I and I am sure alot of others on this board will disagree on this which is fine because that is what this country is all about. Someone will come up with another Silly Bands or the Pet Rock and make millions.

Don't knock that try to come up with something yourself if you don't like Gary L. Davidson. No one was forcing these investors hands they made the investment and losted. But if they were smart they would have saved there WFL team uniforms, game films and WFL footballs to sell on ebay. So these WFL owners were flawed people to in my opinion.

Because no one is perfect including me. And there is a lesson to be learned from the WFL that is don't throw things out like WFL footballs, game uniforms and old WFL tv broadcasts there worth alot of money today for collector's. I save alot of things because everything has value someday in my opinion. Let's Go Buffalo

God, you make my head hurt.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Actually Sam that is a good question. FYI the Buffalo Stampede RHI are no longer with us but the second RHI team the Buffalo Wings are still in existance believe it or not. They run roller hockey leagues in Buffalo area. Also the Buffalo Wings won a MLRH title in 2009 believe it or not with there own in house players they helped developed.

See Sam RHI we were one of the markets on the east coast that accepted the RHI league and the game itself. That is why some of these minor pro leagues in my opinion are silly not to try Buffalo. I understand alot has to do with Buffalo city size and also having a owner willing to put up the money. But my point is Buffalo if you do it right you have alot better chance in Buffalo than in some of these cities on these boards everyone seems to be in love with because there quote growing population wise.

Also no he wasn't Gary L. Davidson wasn't forced out of the WFL he resigned because he felt it was best for the league and he was just tired of the battles day to day. He wasn't forced out read his interview in 2008 I believe the interview was he wasn't forced out not according to that interview he gave.

As for cutting your losses I disagree. If a owner bought all the intellectual properties of the WFL like the Arena League did in bankrupcy it would have been a smart business move. I also would have bought all game film, tv courage from TVS, uniforms, equipment and logos. I am right about this and you know it Sam that is why you have no answer to my last reply but you make my head hurt.

If you want to run and hide because of a little money loss I would never go into business with you. Because you don't think of the little things like I do. You realize I bought a couple of $3 RHI Buffalo Stampede Pennants and turned it into $100 bucks that is smart business. You sound like you throw to much away Sam.

I would have kept everything from WFL stationary to envolopes and hung onto them until they became hot which that type of stuff is today. Just a bag of WFL footballs brings back some of those loses with inflation or a cart of original ABA basketball's.

Another good example is Pepe Pinton holding the intellectual rights to New York Cosmos logo he just sold it to some English business man that is thinking about bringing the New York Cosmos back. That is smart business what Pepe Pinton did. Sam your like that New York Cosmos coach Eddie Firmani all he did was go on in the New York Cosmos movie about what does Pepe Pinton own he owns nothing right Eddie get back to me on that again. Pepe Pinton was smarter then Eddie Firmani. He uses it for soccer camps until he just sold to the English business man.

The Buffalo Wings RHI was also smart they still sell merchandise and run camps and hockey programs in Buffalo. I am right about this Sam and you know it. The Buffalo Stampede PBL now ACPBL are doing the same thing going on even with no money and no PBL league giving us the boot. Hanging on is the key. The Buffalo Stampede I bet are playing longer then the PBL because there blowing alot less money. Using volunteers I said this for months and the PBL board doesn't get it. It is about surivial and hanging on year to year. Not how much money you waste.

Also these guys in the WFL where loaded like John Bassett if he would have thought of it he would have done it money wouldn't be a issue for John Bassett to buy out the other owners then he has the WFL to himself. We saw where cutting his losses got him Sam in the USFL with Donald Trump. He should have stayed in the WFL and I would have never merged the WHA or the ABA on those bad terms I would have vote to go on with the battle. But he never thought of the little small detail like I do. Look at Howard Baldwin now owning the Connecticut Whale AHL that is smart business selling basically the old name to Hartford Whalers fans. He will make some money on that and you never know Howard Baldwin might be in the NHL again with Hartford and we know how you feel about that Sam from your last post.

Keep buying what Gary Bettman sells you with Sun Belt and Phoenix hockey. All those markets belong in the WHA today in my opinion. That is why we need a WHA again so I don't have to see Miami with there empty arena embarrassing themselves against my Buffalo Sabres. The sooner the NHL moves those teams the better. I agree with the canadien hockey fans on that subject. Quebec City had more fan show up last week wanting NHL back for a rally in Quebec City then there are season ticketholders for the Phoenix Coyotes. 4,000 season ticketholders isn't going to get it done for the Phoenix Coyotes you know it and I know it Sam. December 31 we will find out. I think there going to back to Winnipeg with the group out of Toronto buying the Phoenix Coyotes and moving them there. Phoenix then ends up in my opinion in the ECHL with Las Vegas and Salt Lake City etc as the Phoenix Roadrunners. It is over for NHL hockey in Phoenix in my opinion after this season. The only thing that save NHL hockey in Phoenix is a compete local government bailout by Glendale and in my opinion that isn't happening.

Anyway getting back to John Bassett maybe that is why he failed in the WFL and also letting Donald Trump take control of the USFL. I guess he was like you Sam cutting his losses instead of fighting. You think Ralph Wilson of the Buffalo Bills made it in the AFL without a fight. He fought he still fights with the other NFL owners and he is 91 years old going to be 92 on October 17 that is why he is the only NFL owner that own two markets in two countries for his team to play in. Buffalo/Toronto is as big as the Bay Area together combine and the old man Ralph Wilson still cries small market the man is smart with business.

Like I said the small details Sam. Successfull sports owners think of the small details in my opinion. They don't quit or cut there losses. Sport is not meant for the weak owner in my opinion. I am right on the WFL the rights would have been worth keeping in my opinion. And I also would have kept the WFL league together even if it was only 4 or 5 teams till I grew it.

You don't get it Sam I have seen leagues that survive like the NLL they don't have alot of teams but they don't give up the fight even with loses of teams and money you go on till you make it. Even McDonald's wasn't a hit over night. Neither was Pringles until they repackage there chips. So I would have repackaged the WFL even if it was only on a minor league basis. I know Birmingham tried to go on in a minor league with both there WFL and there WHA teams they were smart to atleast try. I would have tried harder with the WFL. I still would do it if we can have WPS lose millions of dollars we certainly would have a better chance with a minor league WFL. Look at all the indoor football leagues that sprouted up surely the WFL would have been smart to stay in business even with the heavy loses just keeping the stadium rights to play games is worth it. The WFL just needed to be repackaged in 1976 in my opinion. Your a good poster Sam we just don't agree on anything really.

I think the bottom line is I am into alternate leagues and you seem to brand alternate leagues with skepticism which is ok we just don't agree on really anything sports wise or business wise for that matter. Hang on to things for a rainy day because the sun will come up tomorrow. And remember what I said the Buffalo Stampede ACPBL will outlast the entire PBL league. What I am saying is the Buffalo Stampede the minor league basketball team. We might not be in the ACPBL forever it might be another fly by night league but the team itself will outlast everyone playing all the present PBL teams in my opinion. And it get back to hanging on in my opinion. It would have cost alot for the WFL to repackage it and hang on for 1976. With inflation those dollars are peanuts really when you think about it. Should of hung on. You could by into the WFL for $3 million dollars in 1974 that doesn't even get you a UFL team today you have to add a 0 to the 3 for $30 million for a UFL franchise. Let's Go Buffalo

[Sam Hill]

Sam Hill I got a question for you. Are you or were you in professional sports on a employee, management or ownership level?

Yes.


Also no he wasn't Gary L. Davidson wasn't forced out of the WFL he resigned because he felt it was best for the league and he was just tired of the battles day to day.

Were you around in 1974? When all this happened? Davidson can say what he likes now, but all the reports at the time were that he "resigned" (wink-wink, nudge nudge). But there's no doubt he was the fall guy for the league's failures.

And make no mistake - the league was a failure.

As for cutting your losses I disagree. If a owner bought all the intellectual properties of the WFL like the Arena League did in bankrupcy it would have been a smart business move.

No, it wouldn't have been. The guys who bought the AFL stuff actually brought the league back and have it playing again so they can - wait for it - lose more money.

I doubt the people selling WFL t-shirts and memorabilia are making a killing in 2010. Nostalgia sells, but only to a point. Surely not to make buying up everything in 1975 "a smart business move." That's insane.

I also would have bought all game film, tv courage from TVS, uniforms, equipment and logos. I am right about this and you know it Sam that is why you have no answer to my last reply but you make my head hurt.

No, you are not right about this and no matter how many times you say it in fractured syntax you are a fan and you approach things from a fan's perspective. You've never had skin in the game, you've never actually done these things, you've never actually taken an investment risk and tried to make it pay off, you've never bought a distressed asset and tried to turn it around. You've never ever done that. Ever. You could sell your Birmingham Americans uniforms today for...what? $100 a pop? $200? Good for you. You'd have only been sitting on them for 35 years.

If you want to run and hide because of a little money loss I would never go into business with you.

"A little money loss?" What the hell do you think this was? These people lost millions of dollars. That's actual cash money. That you don't get back by selling a Shreveport Steamer jersey.

I would have kept everything from WFL stationary to envolopes and hung onto them until they became hot which that type of stuff is today.

Yeah, just incredibly hot. A New York Stars poster is selling for $9.99 (http://cgi.ebay.com/1974-WFL-World-Football-League-New-York-Stars-Poster-/260666508964?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item3cb0ef46a4). Wow. And you only had to wait 36 years for that return on investment. Why, you could get $15 for a Birmingham Americans ticket (http://cgi.ebay.com/BIRMINGHAM-AMERICANS-World-Football-League-WFL-Ticket-/380271011111?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item5889eb2527). Wow. If you only had 60,000 of them, you'd be on to something. Then again, if you had 60,000 of them, they wouldn't be worth $15 a pop because of supply and demand.

Just a bag of WFL footballs brings back some of those loses with inflation or a cart of original ABA basketball's.

WFL football = $300 each (http://cgi.ebay.com/1974-75-WFL-World-Football-League-Game-used-football-/150501233669?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230a929405). Bag of, say, 20? $6,000. In dollars that have 2010's buying power. Versus millions lost in 1974. Yeah, that's a hell of a freaking investment. See, this is why you're a guy in Buffalo and you should just go to games and stop trying to tell people what works and what doesn't.

Another good example is Pepe Pinton holding the intellectual rights to New York Cosmos logo he just sold it to some English business man that is thinking about bringing the New York Cosmos back. That is smart business what Pepe Pinton did.

And it only took him 25 years. And you have no idea what he got for the rights, only I'm going to bet it wasn't the millions he was holding out for. All that means is that the English guy is pretty freaking dumb.

The Buffalo Wings RHI was also smart they still sell merchandise and run camps and hockey programs in Buffalo. I am right about this Sam and you know it.

No, you are not right. Merchandise and camps and hockey programs? But are they a team? Do they play games? NO, they do NOT play games. They are not a team. If I owned a team and folded it and then used the name for a cheese shop, would that be smart? Even if I sold a lot of cheese, that's not what teams do.. Teams play games. In leagues. In front of fans. And compete for championships. They don't sell freaking merchandise and run camps and hockey programs. That's idiotic.

Also these guys in the WFL where loaded like John Bassett if he would have thought of it he would have done it money wouldn't be a issue for John Bassett to buy out the other owners then he has the WFL to himself.

Nobody on freaking Earth makes that move, save a guy in Buffalo who watches sports on TV and thinks he knows what a good investment is. The WFL was a worthless asset in 1975. It had huge liabilities and a crap brand image. Having it all to yourself is not an enviable position.

We saw where cutting his losses got him Sam in the USFL with Donald Trump.

Actually, Trump came in later. And Bassett's Bandits were one of the more successful USFL teams. So, yeah, "cutting his losses" enabled him to....you know...not lose more money hand over fist (hence the term "cutting" your losses) until a better opportunity came along.

He should have stayed in the WFL

There was no WFL at that point to stay in.

and I would have never merged the WHA or the ABA on those bad terms I would have vote to go on with the battle.

Well, you should have been in the freaking room, then, because the other guys voted the other way because they knew this was the best deal they could get.

Why do you live in this fantasy world where money is no object and you can just keep on throwing money around like it's from a Monopoly box and you can "go on with the battle" as if it's freaking Stratego or something? It's not. It's real, actual business with actual money losses that people who aren't like you and who actually do have skin in the game say, at some point, "Enough."

This isn't fantasy sports we're talking about here. This isn't some imaginary set of numbers on a spreadsheet. This is actual money being lost. The WHA and ABA didn't have the resources left to fight. They cut the best deal they could for themselves (and the Silnas got the best deal in the history of ever). Sometimes - and I know this will come as a shock to you - this is what business people do. It's not smart business to hold onto freaking stationery for 36 years unless Abe Lincoln signed it. It is smart business to not throw good money after bad and to live to fight another day.

But he never thought of the little small detail like I do.

That's why he was a successful entrepreneur and you are a fanboy in Buffalo, New York. But you think of little small details, so everybody should read your broke-ass English and take your investment advice. I'd rather listen to Lenny Dykstra.

Look at Howard Baldwin now owning the Connecticut Whale AHL that is smart business selling basically the old name to Hartford Whalers fans. He will make some money on that and you never know Howard Baldwin might be in the NHL again with Hartford and we know how you feel about that Sam from your last post.

No, you don't know sh!t about how I feel about Hartford. At the end of the day, that's still going to be an AHL team in a small market in a crap building and if you're going to hold out hope for the NHL, good luck to you.

Why do you never take the probable into account in your calculations, but you always take the pie-in-the-sky possibilities and assume they're givens?

[Sam Hill]

Keep buying what Gary Bettman sells you with Sun Belt and Phoenix hockey. All those markets belong in the WHA today in my opinion. That is why we need a WHA again so I don't have to see Miami with there empty arena embarrassing themselves against my Buffalo Sabres.

Awwwww, is that what this is about? They are embarrassing themselves when you watch a game on television? Poor baby. You'll just have to get over that, I feel.

Anyway getting back to John Bassett maybe that is why he failed in the WFL

He actually had one of the two relatively successful teams in the WFL.

and also letting Donald Trump take control of the USFL.

You really need to read more. All the USFL owners approved Donald Trump's purchase of the New Jersey Generals from Walter J. Duncan because they thought he'd be good for the league. If you'd read, you'd find that Trump didn't have a bigger detractor among USFL owners than John Bassett. Enough of the others were sheep who believed they were going to get a merger with the NFL (which wasn't going to happen) because they bought into Trump's cult of personality.

I guess he was like you Sam cutting his losses instead of fighting.

Yeah, damn him for not fighting that brain tumor hard enough. He should have stayed in there and kept fighting that thing, like you would have. You think of the little details, that's why you'd be be able to beat brain cancer.

Like I said the small details Sam. Successfull sports owners think of the small details in my opinion. They don't quit or cut there losses. Sport is not meant for the weak owner in my opinion. I am right on the WFL the rights would have been worth keeping in my opinion. And I also would have kept the WFL league together even if it was only 4 or 5 teams till I grew it.

You couldn't grow carrots in your backyard.

You don't get it Sam I have seen leagues that survive like the NLL they don't have alot of teams but they don't give up the fight even with loses of teams and money you go on till you make it.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah more stuff that runs together and makes my head hurt.


I'm tired now, so do me a favor, will you? Call yourself an idiot for me.

[jwalters]

What BSF is talking about is something similar to what the ownere of the Spirits of St. Louis did. He held on to as much as he could of ABA property and TV rights while the other owners just "cut their losses" and took a buyout. That man and his family have earned an average of ten million dollars per year over the last decade from their share of the NBA marketing agreements. That is $10,000,000,per year, doing exactly what BSF, a fan, has said you should do. So lay off. I have a Bachelor of Arts in Sports Management and I am working on my Masters.

BSF, do you remember the pay structure in RHI? I read that it was $200 for a loss and $300 for a win but I have also heard that it was all straight prize money. Do you remember? I was also wondering if you were the person I bought my Buffalo Stampede replica jersey from on ebay? I love roller hockey!

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Yes jwalters that is what I am talking about keeping the rights to the leagues for future use when ever the time comes. No j walters I hung onto my RHI Buffalo Stampede jersey and wrist watch because they won. I only sold a couple of pennants. I think the pay was like tennis and golf where it mattered where you placed in the RHI standings. I personally liked the RHI and got it. I do miss the RHI it was a good time to go to the games I had alot of fun and will always have so many RHI memories. Anyway then if you won the Murphy Cup RHI Championship you got a big bonus.

You know how they have the shows remembering the 1970's and 1980's on I think VH-1. When I think of the 1990's I think of RHI roller hockey, pogs and Beavis and Butthead on MTV. I like Sam but he doesn't get where I am coming from at all with post. RHI roller hockey is like the Pet Rock of the 1970's or the Rubik's Cube of the 1980's or to put it in sports context the USFL and MISL of the 1980's and no Sam I won't bore you with old Buffalo Stallions memories. Or today it is the UFL or LFL Lingerie Football League on MTV2, Jersey Shore and Justin Bieber on MTV in this new decade for things you might remember from the 10's for future generations down the road. We are selling memories Sam down the road that is where I am coming from. Memories to me make money in my opinion selling nostalgia to future generations of whatever league like the UFL.

My hope that the UFL makes it but if it doesn't atleast down the road when that 15 year old is 30 years old and has buying power he might buy UFL things from his past? I understand Sam the base isn't huge but still your going to leave money on the table. I won't go into business with you because if you make a bad investment you don't even care to hang on to the intellectual property strange in my opinion.

Sam my point is something is better then nothing money wise $$$ that is what you don't understand. You look at things on NFL or NBA on a bigger scale instead of making little money slowly. If I make only 10 cents I am putting that dime in my pocket not throwing in a wishing well or out the window. You also tend to look at now instead of 10 and 15 years from now. Sam you say so what about $200 to $300 a WFL football but you know $200 to $300 is nothing to look down your nose at overtime in my opinion. After losing money on something why not recover what you can?

How many majestic USFL jersey did they sell? Alot I bet, I can tell you I have a New Jersey Generals Doug Flutie jersey and a Houston Gamblers Jim Kelly jersey in my closet. Even at $75 dollars a piece nation wide that is alot money to sit and say oh I lost money in the USFL in the 1980's who cares now I am on to something new. That isn't Buffalo Super Fan in fantasyland. Fantasyland no way smart business in my opinion so we can agree to disagree. You can still be onto something new and still protect your intellectual properties for your league and franchise.

NBA owners thought they took the Spirits of St. Louis ABA owners to school never seeing down the road that TV and Cable would go through the ceiling because they where short sighted in my opinion a little like you Sam. Sam you don't know what a UFL tv game will bring you 10 years from now?

How about Bing Crosby owning the 1960 World Series Game 7 the only full game in existance in his basement/wine celler. See Sam you see today I see tommorrow and the future. There is going to be tv channels big and small all over the internet offering unique programs for every persons interest in my opinion.

Future stars are going to be there own mini production companies and very little money needed for start up just a camera and themselves. The general public will decide what they do and don't like not so much a studio in my opinion down the road as much. Look we even have internet stars today. Look at the reality tv yes I understand for some it is the lowest form of television but some of these stars are making millions and yes the maga superstars and movie studios don't like it because it takes away from there potential earning because there fan base isn't as big as in the 1970's, 80's and 90's etc. So there green not with envy but money dollar $ign$ because of money $$$ green there getting not the same audience like they use to anymore.

Tom Cruise at $20 million a film has a smaller base today because not just the Oprah couch tv show thing that didn't help but also there are more stars like the the Kim Kardashians and her family making millions and yes they sell everything and have viewers that takes away from movie stars also because the entainment pie gets split smaller. How about the Jersey Shore there making millions with there MTV show. Snooki and Mike the Situation are stars today and tommorrow there will be others.

I remember it use to be oh you don't want to lower yourself to tv if you were a movie star. Now it is you don't want to lower yourself to internet tv and reality tv but more and more stars are getting into it. Why? Because it makes money and it is the wave of the future with young people.

Just because the NFL is huge today doesn't mean 15 to 20 years from now that it will be we don't know if future generations will only like NFL or for that matter just ESPN? Times change and peoples interest change. The world is opening up not just for american investors like the NFL but also for the European investor for sports too. You can watch more and more world and international sports and sports league today online then you could in 1970's and 1980's. What will that affect be on the NFL and NBA in 15 to 20 years who knows?

And remember when I talk about the internet tv out there it is only a opportunity I never said it would be a smashing success or that a new league would ever be the NFL. That isn't the point.

I like the NFL but I also like the UFL. I have room for both in my life along with the Arena Football League and others. The UFL needs to worry about being the best UFL it can be never mind about the critics they will always be out there because they are out there for the NFL still. The main thing is time.
If the UFL hangs on for 10 plus years let's see what the sports landscape is then because no one knows not even me or you Sam.

I don't live in a fantasy world like you think Sam. I just see things big and small getting bigger or it could go away. The NFL is out to lunch with US internet tv. There blacking out Buffalo Bills game on sunday and I don't care because I will watch it online for free. The NFL should been doing what MLB did getting even a lousy $29.95 is better then nothing what the NFL is getting $0 online in the US. The NFL blackout is dumb and outdated in my opinion.

It doesn't work Buffalo Bills fans aren't going to buy tickets if they don't already have them by now for that slop that Buffalo Bills owner Dollar Ralph Wilson has created. Trading there starting running back in Marshawn Lynch this week to Seattle and cutting there starting quaterback Trent Edwards two week ago now in Jacksonville.

Oh yeah the Buffalo Bills fans are buying Buffalo Bills tickets because of the NFL Blackout right get back to me on that? The NFL needs to step in because like Dollar Bill Chicago Blackhawks late owner Bill Wirtz Ralph Wilson is slowing hurting the Buffalo Bills football market with his poor choices. Now the NFL can't make him sell I understand that but what happened in Chicago with the Blackhawks is starting to happen in Buffalo with the Buffalo Bills which is sad as a Buffalonian.

I have another question Sam did you own a team or work as a GM, Coach or Public Relations and what sports just curious? Good chatting with you Sam and jwalters both. Let's Go Buffalo