NFL Teams at Risk

[suge night]

For those who drink the Kool Aid of the mighty NFL press release today on the state of teams during this economy is not good according to Ravens Owner ,

Many of the teams are struggling to finish in the Black and the Jacksonville team used Black tarps to cover up 10,000 unsold seats so they could lift the TV game blackouts for home games.

Some people think those Indoor teams who lose a bucket full of money can weather the current storm without some of those big money :mrgreen:guys falling off the map please.........

What are some thoughts on this?

[dmbishop]

And I'm sure that the timing of this press release has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the owners are meeting with the Players' Union on Saturday. ;)

Jacksonville should move. It has become obvious that the market is too small and disinterested to support a NFL team (LA, here we come).

As for indoor football (especially the AF1), they better be VERY careful that they don't overstep themselves and spend themselves out of existence. Attendance will either be below predictions or ticket prices will have to be lowered to the point that revenue will be flat.

[Panthers14]

The reason the NFL put a franchise in Jacksonville was because of the huge support of the 1984 - 1985 Jacksonville Bulls who averaged 70,000+ fans per game. When the NFL Jaguars came in they did great too and even had a Super Bowl awarded to them for such loyalty. Yes, the economy Sucks and all sports teams need to be careful. As far as Wayne Weaver moving the team, I believe that this is a move to get better terms with the city...they are going nowhere...and as far as fans who do not support their team, those who do not study history and damned to repeat past mistakes. I.E. Baltimore Colts to Indianapolis, Hartford Whalers to Raleigh, NC, Montreal Expos to Washington D.C., Anaheim Rams to St. Louis, etc.

The NFL can work in smaller cities, but true fans need to come out during lean times and when the economy sucks. Do not be surprised when someday London, England purchases and threatens to move an NFL Team unless they are awarded an expansion franchise. Why not? Sports owners extort the public everyday and just wait until this coup d'état occurs. It almost happened this past Summer when a group from London tried to purchase and move the St. Louis Rams to Wembly; this is when Rush Limbaugh and the owner of the Utah Jazz NBA Team stepped up and tried to move them to Salt Lake instead. They too lost out, but someday somebody will have too much cash on hand and win this extortion lottery...then the NFL will face the option of allowing the team to move or bribe the new owners with an expansion franchise for their city in return for keeping said team in current.

Think I am crazy...:cool:

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Panthers14 no your not crazy but bare in mind there is also nothing stopping a US business people from moving a English Premire League soccer team to US either if we have a true global bussiness economy. Remember it goes both ways so London might want to becareful with starting that type of business you suggested.

Because if Manchester United can make a buck more in New Jersey's new Giant Stadium going up why not. Also keep in mind some EPL clubs are owned by US business people already. Remember if what you say ever happens the US will win that type of business because our sports inforstructure is bigger and better to this date.

That isn't saying Europe couldn't catch up someday. But right not the US puts a greater money interest in specator sports then the European Union look at ticket prices and merchandise sales.

See everyone wants to look at it from oh London is going to take a NFL team how about the US moving Manchester United. So like I said becareful before you open up that can of worms because London would have alot to lose and there would be no winners for greed either side.

As for the reports about some NFL clubs that is why it is so silly that the Buffalo Bills ever get brought up because the last three years we sold all our games out for a football product that hasn't made the NFL playoffs since 1999 with Doug Flutie. The NFL and NFL fans have to be real careful about just wanting to go to Los Angeles and abandon real NFL football towns like Buffalo that eat, sleep and breath football.

I know I live in Buffalo and am personally bias. But the worse our Buffalo Bills have become playing wise the more we draw in season ticket numbers. The season tickets for the Buffalo Bills are as good as the 4 Super Bowl years during a bad economy today. In tough times is when you really know who loves yeah. Buffalo really loves the Buffalo Bills and the NFL.

US Football fans from around the country have to understand the Buffalo Bills are like the Chicago Cubs or Boston Red Sox. They are our town the NFL would be nuts to move the Buffalo Bills over a NFL team that draws under 60,000. Jacksonville, San Diego and Oakland are much better options for Los Angeles than Buffalo.

The US public has to get past oh its Buffalo and it snows alot I don't like that city there kinda of icky move them. The media also shows this bias against Buffalo with some of there pieces. Like the one on ESPN Los Angeles that said move the Buffalo Bills to Los Angeles because they can make more money. That is completely unfair you can make that point about the bottom 10 teams in the NFL yet Buffalo gets pointed out unfairly most of the time.

Buffalo sells out all there home games with 70,000 plus every week. That type of yellow journalism has to stop at ESPN online. I am from Buffalo and I not saying the Buffalo Bills will never be moved because who knows after Ralph Wilson passes. The NFL might someday out grow Buffalo but we aren't there yet the Buffalo Bills still make alot of money for Ralph Wilson and the NFL.

What I am saying is no way should it be phrased like Buffalonains don't support the Buffalo Bills because that is a outright lie and it does bother me as a Buffalonian when it is phased like that totally untrue. Buffalo has supported pro football in the AFL/NFL for 50 years. Americans have to get past the Buffalo is icky when judging our NFL worthiness. Look at the numbers not the location of rust belt. Buffalo sells alot of tickets and NFL merchandise.

Cleveland is ok for ESPN but Buffalo isn't see that is unfair to me? If the day ever comes when the Buffalo Bills move small town america loses to greed and big business and every city in the bottom ten in any sport in the big 4 majors would be at risk for being moved in my opinion. So if your a Kansas City Chiefs fan or a New Orleans Saints fan you should root for Buffalo because once where moved you could be next on the list and remember we sellout every sunday including the last game of the season Buffalonians sat in a snow storm watching the last game of this year against the Indianapolis Colts. You going to tell Buffalonians that sat in a snow storm of a foot of snow there not good enough for the NFL anymore? Good luck NFL with that type of business greedy attitude. Let's Go Buffalo

[Pounder]

Your point is mostly well-taken, but there is a major technicality regarding soccer.

There ARE things preventing Man U from moving to New York- FIFA, the English Football Association, the US Soccer Federation, and millions of English fans who would run riot on the FA if such a thing happened.

FIFA only allows cross-national leagues when the FAs agree; usually when one country can't get a league together. England takes plenty of pride in Man U's titles. USSF isn't going to undermine MLS unless a swarm of deeper pockets come along.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Yes that is true pounder just like the US would step in if a European business person tried to take a US NFL team to Europe from a US city. See that is why I say that it would open up a whole can of worms.

But I do wonder even if FIFA, the English Football Association, the US Soccer Federation steped in like the US stepping in with the NFL. The thing I wonder about is if someone tried to press it like Al Davis did with moving the Oakland Raiders to Los Angeles without NFL approval if anything can be done to stop free trade and business from taking place.

If you own Man U for example pounder the bottom line is it your soccer club it is a business and the fans don't own it. Of course the league could maybe stripe you of the franchise or boot you out of the league. But still I think it would end up in a court of law.

Because at the end of the day nothing stoped Al Davis and even in the Phoenix Coyotes NHL case all 4 major leagues were worried how a court of law would determine what a individual owner can do with his or her franchise. It sure would be interesting hopefully we never see it. Let's Go Buffalo

[Pounder]

But I do wonder even if FIFA, the English Football Association, the US Soccer Federation steped in like the US stepping in with the NFL. The thing I wonder about is if someone tried to press it like Al Davis did with moving the Oakland Raiders to Los Angeles without NFL approval if anything can be done to stop free trade and business from taking place.


FIFA declares the team "rogue," and no players can play for national teams with all the attention and money inherit in the selection. All the good players leave Meadowlands United. So much for Malcolm Glazer's investment. That all presumes they'll play in a league, BTW... again, kicked out of England and USSF not recognizing you.

Meanwhile, Manchester City takes Old Trafford and runs with it. With FIFA, someone can always take your place.

In short, Manchester United isn't a franchise. It's a club. It is still dependent on having a league to play in to "enroll" in the major competitions.

I see THAT as one reason it might be in the public's interest to couple an NFL anti-trust exemption with promotion/relegation. I believe that would indirectly kill franchise moves, BTW.

Just saying.

[Paul S]

FIFA has a lot more power than you realize, pounder is right they'd declare it a rogue team. Wimbledon (SW London) tried to move to Dublin about 10 years ago and it was disallowed.

I think we will see NFL teams in Toronto and London in the future. Now I like the Bills and hope they stay but I've also heard via ESPN that the owner is worried because the Bills are his fortune and he feels the family will crippled by inheritance taxes if he dies

[Sam Hill]

The reason the NFL put a franchise in Jacksonville was because of the huge support of the 1984 - 1985 Jacksonville Bulls who averaged 70,000+ fans per game.

No, they didn't.

They did lead the USFL in attendance both of their years in the league, but averaged 45k, not 70k+. They had exactly TWO crowds of 70k+, both the first year.

The reason the NFL put a franchise in Jacksonville...ten years later...was because Wayne Weaver ponied up.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Paul S., the Buffalo Bills aren't moving to Toronto it isn't do able on so many levels in my opinion. They have stadium issue one for NFL football fulltime. Two there is no chance for Toronto to get public money for a new football stadium in Toronto after the Skydome taking of public money it is a sore point in Toronto because the taxpayers in Toronto got left on the hook for the whole Skydome stadium. If public money ever becomes available in Toronto again it will be for a new baseball park first in my opinion for the Toronto Blue Jays in the future.

Three Toronto has the CFL no way the CFL just sits and lets Buffalo move into there territorry fulltime. Think WFL 1974 with the Toronto Northman. Four Ted Rogers has passed away he was the one guy with the money that was willing to spend it. What Toronto business person is going to pay $800 to $900 million for the Buffalo Bills and then another $600 million for a privately fund football stadium for the city of Toronto that is luke warm at best on NFL football it isn't going to happen? That is $1.5 billion before you have to pay for players and pay the NFL other teams for going in the new Toronto territorry.

Toronto is a big city with money but not that kind of money. No business person does that deal without a complete publicly fund football stadium and see number two of what I just wrote. Los Angeles a much bigger city they can't do this what makes people think Toronto a smaller city than Los Angeles that they would be able to do this they can't in my opinion.

Because the Toronto Blue Jays have a outdated stadium now in my opinion. Think Montreal Expos Olympic Stadium that is the Rogers Center now for baseball. Toronto needs to worry about keeping there baseball team that has seen some crowds of 15,000 on weeknights last year.

As for my Buffalo Bills I believe the team will be sold once Ralph Wilson passes to local ownership in Buffalo or ownership willing to keep the team in Buffalo. No way is the state of New York letting taxes on a $112 million dollar Buffalo Bills payroll go out the door without trying to keep that money in New York State. This isn't Ohio where they had the Cincinnati Bengals to tax when the Cleveland Browns left.

See that is what outsiders are missing on the Buffalo Bills situation. Buffalo is the only NFL football team that New York state techinally has to collect taxes from. Because the Jets and Giants pay taxes to the state of New Jersey not to the state of New York. Jacksonville will move first in my opinion because Florida has two other NFL football teams Dolphins and Buccaneers to collect taxes from.

I live in Buffalo and I don't believe we will lose our team after Ralph Wilson passes is it possible sure it is but is it definate like a ESPN or the national media paints the picture no. The Buffalo Bills will most likely will just be sold to new owners that will keep the team in Buffalo like any other NFL team in other cities in my opinion. Let's Go Buffalo

[Sam Hill]

Paul S., the Buffalo Bills aren't moving to Toronto it isn't do able on so many levels in my opinion. They have stadium issue one for NFL football fulltime.

What? What does that mean? "They have stadium issue one for NFL football fulltime." Who has what?


Two there is no chance for Toronto to get public money for a new football stadium in Toronto after the Skydome taking of public money it is a sore point in Toronto because the taxpayers in Toronto got left on the hook for the whole Skydome stadium.

I believe they would play at Rogers Centre, like they do now when they play in Toronto.

If public money ever becomes available in Toronto again it will be for a new baseball park first in my opinion for the Toronto Blue Jays in the future.

That makes sense, I guess.

Three Toronto has the CFL no way the CFL just sits and lets Buffalo move into there territorry fulltime.

They may not have a choice.

Think WFL 1974 with the Toronto Northman.

Northmen. And that was 1974. And it was the WFL. If an NFL team is a better deal, overall, for Toronto than the Argos (and it would be hard to argue that it wouldn't be), that would seem to me to carry some weight. Now, the CFL would gripe, I would imagine. But it might be futile.

Four Ted Rogers has passed away he was the one guy with the money that was willing to spend it. What Toronto business person is going to pay $800 to $900 million for the Buffalo Bills and then another $600 million for a privately fund football stadium for the city of Toronto that is luke warm at best on NFL football it isn't going to happen? That is $1.5 billion before you have to pay for players and pay the NFL other teams for going in the new Toronto territorry.

Lukewarm at best for NFL football? What are you watching?

Because the Toronto Blue Jays have a outdated stadium now in my opinion. Think Montreal Expos Olympic Stadium that is the Rogers Center now for baseball. Toronto needs to worry about keeping there baseball team that has seen some crowds of 15,000 on weeknights last year.

As do a lot of teams. But the Jays averaged 21k on Mondays, 23k on Tuesdays, 18k on Wednesdays, 20k on Thursdays, 22k on Fridays, 26k on Saturday and 29k on Sundays.

They had 20 crowds of <16k last year. 6 of 12 Wednesdays, 3 of 13 Tuesdays, 5 of 10 Thursdays, 4 of 7 Mondays and 2 of 13 Fridays. In other words, of their 42 weekday games (Monday-Thursday), they had <16k 18 times. 8 of their top 21 crowds were on weekdays last year. They averaged 21k on weekdays, below the MLB average of 28k, but not terribly.

None of which has anything to do with the NFL, which is the most popular sports league in North America.

As for my Buffalo Bills I believe the team will be sold once Ralph Wilson passes to local ownership in Buffalo or ownership willing to keep the team in Buffalo.

So, wait...there's no one in a city the size of Toronto who would pay for an NFL team, but there's certainly someone in Buffalo or who'd be willing to keep the team in Buffalo that will pony up for it? And that makes sense to you?

No way is the state of New York letting taxes on a $112 million dollar Buffalo Bills payroll go out the door without trying to keep that money in New York State.

They can try. But businesses relocate all the time.

This isn't Ohio where they had the Cincinnati Bengals to tax when the Cleveland Browns left.

Think they didn't feel it, though? As if the tax on the Bengals made it all better?

See that is what outsiders are missing on the Buffalo Bills situation. Buffalo is the only NFL football team that New York state techinally has to collect taxes from.

They do, however, collect taxes from the Yankees, Mets, Rangers, Islanders and Knicks.

Because the Jets and Giants pay taxes to the state of New Jersey not to the state of New York. Jacksonville will move first in my opinion because Florida has two other NFL football teams Dolphins and Buccaneers to collect taxes from.

And Florida will just say "Okay, we won't miss ya! We have the Bucs and Dolphins to tax?"

Jacksonville is a reasonable candidate to move because
(a ) they are in a small market
(b ) a really big market is out there, untapped
(c ) Jacksonville should never have gotten a team in the first place

It has nothing to do with taxes.

I live in Buffalo and I don't believe we will lose our team after Ralph Wilson passes is it possible sure it is but is it definate like a ESPN or the national media paints the picture no. The Buffalo Bills will most likely will just be sold to new owners that will keep the team in Buffalo like any other NFL team in other cities in my opinion. Let's Go Buffalo

Well, we're going to find out, aren't we?

[Buffalo Super Fan]

What are you watching Toronto Rogers Corp. is papering the house for the Buffalo Bills games one so you have no idea what you are talking about luke warm is being kind because I am a Buffalonian after all. We are the city of good neighbors and Toronto is our neighbor so I am being nice by saying luke warm. I enjoy the city of Toronto very much but outside the Toronto Maple Leafs it isn't very much of a passionate sports city think the canadien city version of our Atlanta that is Toronto sports wise in my opinion.

The Buffalo Bills sellouts are papered in Toronto. Two Rogers Center doesn't meet the NFL seating capacity for a fulltime team it is too small. The NFL isn't going to a 55,000 seat baseball ballpark it isn't happening fulltime.

Three when did the NFL get into sharing stadiums with baseball teams that went out with the 1990's. Look at a team unhappy like Oakland as a example sharing with the Oakland A's. Football is king they don't play second fiddle for baseball teams or the Toronto Maple Leafs in a city. The Buffalo Bills are number one morning noon and night in Buffalo. Four New York State collecting for the NY Mets and NY Yankees your missing the point and I am not surprise since your from Denver and believe everything ESPN tells you. Those are down state teams. New York City is like Detroit to Buffalonians we don't identify with NYC anymore than we would identify with Detroit or Denver. We see ourselves as a individual area plus I said football team reread last post.

If the Buffalo Bills move one there will be law suits against the NFL by New York State just because it makes Buffalo a ghost town, the county of Erie and the city of Buffalo same reasons as the state. This is like what happened with Cleveland and the NFL didn't want to deal with it and gave Cleveland a expansion franchise but this time that won't happen because the NFL for now is done expanding. So there going to give Buffalo there chance weather you like it or not. It is our team to lose.

Plus your dealing with anti trust with Senator Charles Schumer from New York State that is one of the members on the anti trust commitee so that is a issue the NFL doesn't want to deal with. Plus if the Buffalo Bills were to move it would go to another US city first in my opinion before a canaden city like Toronto in my opinion because of anti trust and taking care of interested US cities first like Los Angeles and San Antonio come to mind. Your from Denver and obvious have never been to Toronto.

It isn't as easy as you think the NFL isn't like any other business in a place like Buffalo. You obviously have a Toronto want for the NFL I understand that because your basing it on population. But I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you the NFL doesn't like to move teams willy nilly all over for no reason the Buffalo Bills make money. The Buffalo Bills will get whatever they want from Buffalo before another city ever enters the picture. How about we move Denver Broncos since the city of Denver is smaller than the city of Toronto how do you like that once the Broncos owner passes? That is your logic.

Buffalo isn't a normal situation it is proablely one of the hardest teams on the list of possible moves because the area isn't going to sit and do nothing like in Seattle with the Supersonics due to political and fan apathy in Seattle. Phoenix is a joke the Cardinals should have been moved years ago. The Coyotes are laughing stock with there fan support. But your logic there big population cities. Enough with the population garbage I heard enough out of guys like you on ESPN boards. Young and wanting teams in heavy populated areas weather there sports towns or not move there and make them sports fans and as we have seen that isn't working look up Jacksonville for the NFL. How is Atlanta working out for the NHL and Miami. Tampa and Nashville but we got to go there they have tons of people that sounds like a great idea save it with me.

The Buffalo Bills are part of Buffalo's cultural heritage hence the Buffalo on the helmet and the Let's Go Buffalo. They represent more than just a football team to our area. They represent our way of life that Buffalonian identify with. The only way you could possible understand this is move to Buffalo for a couple of years and then tell me the Buffalo Bills are moving to Toronto.

That canadien deal was nothing but Ralph Wilson getting $78 million dollars for renting out a series of football games for Toronto to try for Rogers Corp and it failed bigtime for Rogers Corp plus Ted Rogers the main man interested passed away. Plus the Buffalo Bills getting claim on the Toronto territory to keep Jacksonville Jaguars out of Toronto.

The NFL wasn't a smashing success in Toronto. We aren't going to find out anything inless Toronto is ready to give the NFL a free new football stadium of there own and I am not talking a outdated baseball stadium to share with the Blue Jays. Toronto my prediction never gets to that point to even put in a bid on the Buffalo Bills after Ralph Wilson. Buffalo promises the Buffalo Bills a new football stadium with Jeremy Jacobs from Delaware North as owner that is what is likely to happen with the Buffalo Bills after Ralph Wilson.

Most of what you read is media speculated. No one has seen the will we don't know if Ralph Wilson has change his mind after the death of his daughter Linda last year. Remember Ralph Wilson is a married man and he could leave the team to his wife Mary Wilson. And also keep in mind she might contest any will we don't know no one does including the media. So after Ralph Wilson passes it will take years to sort out.

Don't act like Buffalo doesn't have rich families like Toronto because they do. And Buffalo it is there team to lose that is what you are missing is this whole equation this isn't like a expansion process. It isn't going to be like bidding on a horse for horse racing going to the highest bigger. The NFL will first look if the team has Buffalo bidders to keep the team in Buffalo first that will pay NFL market rate what ever that is at the time of the Buffalo Bills being sold.

Cleveland Browns moved because the city was stupid giving the Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Cavaliers new stadium and arena and turning there back on the Cleveland Browns with owner Art Model pleas. I not talking the fans but the politicians in Cleveland and the state of Ohio they let the Cleveland Browns go.

That won't happen in Buffalo because the Buffalo Sabres already got there new arena already the Buffalo Bills turn is next. All the New York City teams are already taking care. So the Buffalo Bills are next and Toronto will be holding the bag in the end with no NFL for a long time in my opinion.

Toronto is being used and are now Buffalo's territory so another NFL team can't move into Buffalo's territory it was brillant by the Buffalo Bills and Ralph Wilson. That gives the new Buffalo Bills owner a huge territory to market the Buffalo Bills too while keeping other NFL teams out of the Toronto market like the Jacksonville Jaguars.

The NFL and Ralph Wilson have met with Charles Schumer and New York State representives in Washington, DC already. I believe everything is taking care of for the Buffalo Bills to stay in Buffalo after Ralph Wilson. The Buffalo Bills will stay in Buffalo and yes it has to do with taxes because the Buffalo Bills generate taxes for New York State from this part of the state that is a business or company as you will of Buffalo's stop acting like Buffalo is a bunch of idiots that are going to just let a city take there team of 50 years and money out of this state it isn't happening in my opinion. You think state of Colorado sits back and lets Los Angeles take the Denver Broncos? That is your logic.

The Buffalo Bills will be tied up in court for years if the NFL tries to move the Buffalo Bills franchise. Will the NFL win in the end in my opinion yes but not without alot of damage and there not risking that for Toronto that is luke warm on the NFL. Los Angeles maybe because of the money of US tv contracts talks in the future Toronto no in my opinion.

New York State isn't going to sit on there hands and watch a foreign city Toronto take that revenue out of New York State it isn't happening. You are obvious misinformed because I am alot closer to the situation then you are I live in Buffalo and am 90 minutes from Toronto there not close to NFL ready as a city. This is all I will write to you on this topic because you are obvious misinformed how bad those games are going over in Toronto. Just because Toronto is a big city doesn't mean there a football city or sports city for that matter there not.

I know I been there for Toronto Blue Jays games the city doesn't even deserve major league baseball anymore they could leave like the Montreal Expos to a US city when the US economy is better. There into the Toronto Maple Leafs NHL and FC Toronto MLS Soccer which is really hurting the Toronto Blue Jays in my opinion.

Cities like Newark, NJ, Charlotte NC, Las Vegas NV and Portland OR would be better places for major league baseball than Toronto there just not a major league baseball city anymore sadly there the next Montreal Expos in my opinion and as a Buffalonian I am concerned how badly there drawing. 11,000 a game on week nights is going to cut it. My Buffalo Bisons IL that are minor league average over 8,000. The Toronto Blue Jays lost a cool $30 million dollars last year but there NFL ready? Right

It is Toronto Maple Leafs and then more of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The Toronto area should worry about MLB baseball because I think it is in alot of trouble in Toronto. Rogers Corp has been shopping the Jays around with no takers in Toronto. When the US economy gets better I would be concerned for the Jays in Toronto in my opinion. We don't agree on anything and let's leave it at that. Let's Go Buffalo

[Pounder]

That's an awful lot of throwing others under the bus to say that the Bills would never move. I think you belie your own argument.

HOWEVER...

You're right about Toronto. The NFL doesn't have to settle for Rogers Centre, and unlike Rogers Centre (government funding because it was a future-setting major legacy project) and BMO Field (partial federal funding due to U-20 World Cup), there's not going to be any public funds for NFL in Toronto.

Fortunately for Buffalo, I think the jolt of awakening has happened regarding public funding for facilities. Your worry is private money in Los Angeles. Nobody else is going to get the scratch raised anytime soon.

Well, to pull from under the bus, Jacksonville is in far worse condition. So they're more likely to move.

Arizona? Selling out ever since the new stadium was built. I'm not sure if that's true of every game, but it's made a difference for the Cardinals.

That is all.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Bottom line Pounder is the Buffalo Bills are in this augment of moving for two reason one there owner is 93 years old and two corporate support is limited in a place like Buffalo compared to places like Toronto or Los Angeles but spare me that there good NFL towns for fan support.

NFL fans need to understand if Buffalo goes Cleveland and Detroit could be next if it is all about NFL greed or any smaller NFL market like a Kansas City or a St. Louis if it is all about greed and profits. The bottom line is the Buffalo Bills sellout every game and make money. To many fans think because the Buffalo Bills has been average for 10 straight years with no playoffs they must not sellout which is far from the truth.

The Buffalo Bills fans are like Chicago Cubs fans. The Buffalo Bills can suck for 50 years and sellout games we were 10th in NFL total attendance this year in 2009 and that is with playing in Toronto a rinky dink baseball park for one game or our total attendance would be higher than 10th for 2009 season but we should be moved according to some NFL jokers.

Fans in Buffalo go to the Buffalo Bills games for NFL football yes but also for one of the best tailgating parties in the NFL each week. We have quarterbacks that can't throw a football and chew gum at the same time but we still sellout game after game. Is that happening in Jacksonville, Oakland, San Diego and Detroit ask yourself that before anyone is so ready to move the Buffalo Bills.

I am proud of my city and if we lose the Buffalo Bills it isn't because of the city of Buffalo it is because of pure NFL greed. NFL fans can live in denial and say oh Buffalo sucks. Anyone is entitle to there opinion that is fine but Buffalo doesn't suck as a NFL city and I personally take offense when someone says move the Buffalo Bills before other candiates are even brought up that is all I am saying.

Could we move yes I not naive Brooklyn got screwed with the Brooklyn Dodgers so yes Buffalo could get screwed but don't come at me with Toronto or Los Angeles is this great NFL football city and Buffalo isn't because that is just plain wrong.

Fans that say Toronto really don't know what there talking about there is no tailgating in Toronto because there is a open container law in Toronto. In Buffalo you can drink beer and walk around in a parking lot in Toronto you can not. Plus another thing NFL fans outside the Buffalo/Toronto area don't understand is if NFL leaves Buffalo the NFL is finish for most Buffalonians in there eyes for good.

Meaning Buffalonians aren't going to go up to Toronto to support the Toronto whatever there called if that happens. Most Buffalonians if the Buffalo Bills left for Toronto or any other city will just support University at Buffalo Bulls football and be done with the NFL period because of the NFL betrayal of screwing Buffalo that is something NFL fans that follow this have to understand. You not going to get many Buffalonians to support the old Buffalo Bills as the new Toronto whatevers.

The same thing happened when the NBA left Buffalo in 1978 with the Buffalo Braves leaving for San Diego. For most fans in Buffalo the NBA doesn't exist today and alot of that has to do with the Buffalo Braves NBA moving out of Buffalo.

If the Buffalo Bills stay in Buffalo and play a game or two you have the best of both worlds you keep the hardcore Buffalo fans support that Toronto right now lacks and you get the corporate support hopefully from the Toronto corporations. If you do it the other way around Toronto doesn't get the hardcore Buffalo fans.

Why because Toronto never lost anything Buffalo would be with losing the Buffalo Bills. NFL fans have to understand what the Buffalo Bills represent to the communtity of Buffalo to fully understand the Buffalo Bills situation. Buffalo isn't the only one that has lost jobs in the rust belt cities remember that fact too.

Michigan and Ohio are really hurting now too. Pounder I am not naive the NFL is about greed so anything is possible but I can promise you Buffalo football will always exist in some form if the Buffalo Bills leave the Buffalo community will support UB Bulls even more hardcore then it is now in my opinion.

UB has only had a I-A or FBS team since 1999 and it is growing first under Turner Gill and now under Jeff Quinn. Also if the Buffalo Bills left I would think the Arena Football League would put a new Buffalo arena football franchise in state of the art HSBC Arena where the Buffalo Sabres NHL and Buffalo Bandits NLL play to take advantage of Buffalo Bills fans being ticked off. Is it the NFL no but Buffalo will I believe support that before ever giving Toronto a dime that stole there NFL football team in my opinion. We are a proud city of one million metro Buffalo would get some form of professional football because of the hardcore support and our size.

Tulsa has professional football no knock on Tulsa because I know how that feels so I am careful not to knock on cities inless it is well deserved. I am using Tulsa as a example of a smaller city then Buffalo that has professional football so it is doubtful that Buffalo would be without some kind of professional football for long if the Buffalo Bills left Buffalo. So I would think Buffalo would get a football team to call there own again in some league like the AFL. It wouldn't surprise me pounder if the NFL got greedy because this is what it is all about for the NFL. Not weather Buffalo is a good football town or not. Because Buffalo is a good football town and a good sports town in general. We had 18,575 in attendance tonight for NLL Buffalo Bandits indoor lacrosse so Buffalo will have some form of professional football no matter what I believe in the future if the Buffalo Bills leave. The NFL today in my opinion is about how much money can you fleece from another city or from television.

Los Angeles is a huge market no way Buffalo beats that I am not a fool. I understand that but are they better football fans than Buffalo like many NFL fans act like on other web boards no. Los Angeles is about size and money for the NFL. Buffalo can never beat that if it is about size and money. But Buffalo can I believe any day of the week beat Jacksonville. And if it was fair Jacksonville would be the team that moves with there 47,000 fans. The NFL doesn't have the tradition in Jacksonville like Buffalo. But I also understand life isn't always fair. The NFL is a business and they will do what is best for there bottom line nothing I say changes that. But I won't sit and not defend Buffalo as a sports city we have been around a long time supporting sports teams since 1877 with the Buffalo Bisons baseball team where it all started in Buffalo.

The bottom line if the Buffalo Bills move there done forever for most Buffalonians that is all I am saying is the thought process in Buffalo. We aren't going to Toronto that is why Rogers is papering the house they thought wrongly that Toronto fans would pay anything for NFL football and they found the good folks of Toronto wouldn't pay high prices to watch a very average Buffalo Bills football team of usually 7-9 and last year 6-10 that doesn't sell in Toronto like Buffalo.

You will most likely never get the amosphere that is in Buffalo now in a city like Toronto that is a big city corporate community just like Los Angeles good luck with that for the NFL. Both cities are lukewarm for professionall football at best it isn't 24/7 like Buffalo. The Buffalo Bills are front page news in Buffalo during the season. Our news will talk for 10 minutes of a 30 minute news cast if a important player is hurt and have doctors on to discuss the injury I doubt that is happening in Toronto or Los Angeles. If your the NFL you don't want to leave cities like Buffalo, Cleveland and Detroit that eat and sleep football if you can help it.

Los Angeles because of USC and has alot of better things to do then the NFL on sunday like the beach for one and Toronto ditto just change USC to Toronto Maple Leafs and other things to do like the night life that comes with a major city. And just so you know I think it is a joke Green Bay is grandfather for community ownership and Buffalo can't be. Green Bay wouldn't be so safe without community ownership so NFL fans that is something else to think about. The Buffalo Bills under community ownership survive forever like Green Bay the problem is it is banned now in the NFL for cities like Buffalo. Let's Go Buffalo

[Paul S]

I hope you're right as I believe the Bills offer the city of Buffalo a lot.

Just, bear in mind, I didn't say the Bills were moving to Toronto, just the city of Toronto (and London UK) will get a team one day.

I also take issue with two of your points.

1* You say theres nobody in Toronto who can afford an NFL team. I would say to you absolutely yes there is. 20 years ago we were far ahead of Canada economically, now we are behind them in some areas. I would argue there are a number of people, groups of people, consortium's and partnerships that could afford an NFL team.

2* You say the CFL will block it. Its out of their hands to be honest. The CFL is a great league and I hope it lasts a long time. But the CFL doesn't live or die on Toronto's team. They lost Montreal twice, Montreal which in the 70's was Canadas largest city and economic powerhouse.


All things considered I hope the Bills stay in Buffalo.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Paul S. I will be very suprised if the NFL and the Buffalo Bills leave Buffalo. I will give you it is very possible I am not naive the NFL is a big business. But Buffalo is not anymore likely to move than say Jacksonville. Your in the New England area turn on your tv for the NHL playoffs. Buffalo has fans in tents outside the HSBC arena packed that the team set up with Buffalo Sabres fans that can't get a ticket for the Buffalo Sabres vs Boston Bruins series inside HSBC Arena.

So if your the NFL your leaving this city that backs there teams like no other it makes no sense to me. We have tents filled with hockey fans even the outside of Buffalo area hockey writers were impressed the number of Sabres fans in tents. We are only in the first round. By Stanley Cup semi finals and Finals time if Buffalo makes it there have to open the Buffalo Bisons IL baseball stadium like before in 1999 and 2006.

When I mention money for Toronto think about this if Los Angeles is having trouble getting a new football stadium build with all private money plus aquiring a team what makes Toronto so much different. If anything it will be harder for Toronto because it isn't as big as Los Angeles. Plus Los Angeles has a NFL football culture already from having NFL teams before. Toronto does not have that you are building a completely new fan base for NFL football that takes years ask the Phoenix Coyotes for NHL hockey.

I mention money for Toronto this isn't coming from me this is coming from Business backs the Bills group that have bankers on the board that say Toronto isn't likely coming up with $1.5 billion dollars to buy the team and build a new NFL football stadium with all private funds for Toronto. The risk is to great for profit these are bankers that is there business that are saying that not me. I don't have that type of financial expertise but it makes sense to me when you think about it.

Could you get a guy that doesn't care about losses and debt like a Mark Cuban yes maybe but it isn't likely that is all I am saying. What is more likely is the Buffalo Bills might have a new owner in a public funded paid for new stadium in Buffalo. Because the Buffalo Bills mean that much to the people of Buffalo in my opinion. The NFL knows this and I believe that there chances of getting a fully publically financed stadium in Buffalo is better than Toronto privately financed one in my opinion.

If Erie County and New York State say no to publically funded new football stadium then I think the team is up for graps for another city. But at the end of the day in my opinion if the Buffalo Bills move it will be because Erie County and New York State said no to a full publically funded stadium. But make no mistake about it that the Buffalo Bills are Buffalo's to lose. This isn't a expansion derby where cities have to prove there worthyness. Buffalo has the team it is ours to lose. Toronto business leaders are banking on Buffalo saying no to a proposed Buffalo group wanting a new publically funded stadium. They may be right or the maybe wrong we will find out.

And that is what it is all about for the NFL in my opinion what the NFL can get out of it. If the Buffalo Bills move I will be disappointed as a Buffalo Bills fan but life goes on for me as a Buffalo sports fan. I lost my Buffalo Braves NBA in 1978 and in 1979 I got two new franchises in Buffalo. The Buffalo Stallions MISL no longer around left after the 1984 season and Buffalo Bisons EL double-a that are now still in Buffalo as a triple-a franchise again in the IL.

Understand Buffalo has over 1 million metro population so Buffalo will have professional football in the Arena Football League if the NFL left I will guerantee it like Joe Namath. If your a owner of a arena football team struggling in another city and you see that Buffalo just lost the Bills and have Sabres NHL hockey fans in tents and is averaging over 16,000 for NLL Buffalo Bandits indoor lacrosse at HSBC Arena your not not coming to Buffalo in state of the art HSBC Arena with 18,690 seat with HD video reply boards? The answer is you are coming to Buffalo to give the Buffalo fans some kind of professional football.

In all likelyhood your moving your struggling Arena Football franchise to Buffalo as soon as possible to fill that void. That is how Buffalo got the Buffalo Destroyers because the owner that owned the Buffalo Destroyers thought the Buffalo Bills might be leaving after the Buffalo Bills lease was up in 1998 and we had to sell all kinds of boxes with the Business backs the Bills helping the Buffalo Bills sell the boxes to companies in the area.

So as far as I am concerned I will have football either way in my city of Buffalo. Buffalo is just a better more passionate sports city than Toronto in my opinion having been to games in both cities. Buffalo has had professional sports since 1877 with the baseball Buffalo Bisons of the National League. No amount of money is going to make the city of Toronto have passion for sports like Buffalo. It is built in our culture for over 100 years. You can't buy that from Buffalo you only get the team a piece of paper saying you own the NFL Buffalo Bills.

Passion and interest isn't for sale that is what the Toronto folks at Rogers Corp. are learning from the Bills Toronto Series. If the Buffalo Bills move to Toronto fulltime I believe it will be a failure big time and in another US city like the Montreal Expos maybe San Antonio in ten years after move. Buffalo either way will still have pro football and still roots for what we have because of the sports passion that isn't built in a year or two or because some corporation has big bucks to buy the Buffalo Bills and move it.

I was looking at a ebay auction and bid on a 1885 NL Baseball Boston Beaneaters at Buffalo Bisons program I didn't win it but I read the pictures they had of the program with the ads. The bars that were in the ads to go to after the Buffalo Bisons NL game for drinks in 1885 are right around where our present Coke Cola Field is today for the Buffalo Bisons IL Baseball team.

Buffalo if you ever get a chance to come to Buffalo is filled with history and culture. Our culture and way of life has been going on sports wise different names and teams but the general idea for over 100 years. Was it as big then as today no but the way of rooting for Buffalo sports wise has been going on for a long time. Even the uniforms have the Buffalo on them in the early 1900's. The standing Buffalo on the sports uniform you see today from Buffalo teams goes back over 100 years.

See fans like you don't get with all this population stuff and money moving to the south and west bigger markets. That sports is build in a culture for years. My brother lives in Las Vegas and I talk to him the other day and I said are you going to the future major league team in Las Vegas someday and he said no and I said why not. And he said I have sports teams already I root for in Buffalo.

Then he talked about the Buffalo Sabres playoffs and Buffalo Bills draft. I also asked him about the UFL in Las Vegas if he will give it a try now that they are UFL champions and he laughed and said no. And it isn't because it is the UFL he went to Buffalo Destroyers AFL games when he lived in Buffalo and when he comes home he goes to the Buffalo Bisons IL baseball games in the summer time. He isn't a native Las Vegas person he still identifies with Buffalo not the city he lives in now and he has been there for more than 10 years in his house out there. And talks about coming home to Buffalo when he retires.
He is a vice president of a company in the bay area but is allowed to base himself in Las Vegas where it is cheaper to own a house plus he travels all the time anyway so it doesn't matter where he is based as long as it is in the western part of the US. He left Buffalo for work nothing more so there is no loyalty there for him in Las Vegas. And I would imagine it is that way with alot of transplants from northeastern cities. Let's Go Buffalo