State of the NIFL

[nksports]

After looking over most of the team's press clippings and attendance reports, here's how the NIFL is looking right now:
Solid:
(Good attendances, no apparent problems with ownership)
Billings
Everett
Montgomery
Wyoming
Odessa
River City
Tri-Cities
Hard to asses situations in these cities:
(most of these teams have failed to report home attendances in box scores, always a red flag)
Corpus Christi
Lakeland
Lubbock
Southwest Louisiana
Toast:
(Poor attendance and/or unstable ownerships. Some of the news clippings of these teams are more on the business end of things than on the football end)
Beaumont
Cincinnati (actually has decent attendance reports, but ownership appears ready to blow up. Even had equipment repossessed)
Dayton (in a similar situation as Cincinnati. New ownership could save both franchises)
Daytona Beach (there have been reports that AIFL team has lease there for 2006)
Fayetteville (will the last one in the building please turn out the lights)
Kissimmee (myriad of problems, little fan support)
New Jersey (dead in the water, it's a wonder this team even started the season)
San Angelo (economic downturn in area for an already small market. Low attendance. Hockey team there just shut down)
Lincoln (Little fan support. Maybe a UIF team or an APFL team with more natural rivals could make this team fly)
Miami (low attendance for a large arena/large market team, needs to look at AFL)
Rome

[ChampionOfSteel]

Under financed leagues don't deserve to exist. When you consider the hardships endured by unpaid bills, and teams folding during the season, the fans of the NIFL are morally obligated to refrain from supporting their local NIFL team.

Send the NIFL ownership and their commissioner a message -- the ends (existing in the first place) doesn't justify the means (unfair and unethical business practices).

[Pounder]

I keep hearing that Corpus Christi has good attendance. They don't seem to be a problem.

I thought I'd heard somewhere that Billings had to be helped by the league. New ownership has taken over... drop in attendance of more than 1,000 per game is probably not their fault, but it doesn't help keep the team alive. They're not in a good position considering their travel requirements.

I've seen 4 reported Lakeland attendances, all around the 2,500 mark, but fans say it looks like 1,000. Well, what else can you say?

Southwest Louisiana / Lake Charles reports one freaking game a year, and they hang around. It's possible they save money by not hiring a stat freak. That probably only proves how annoying this league is.

Do I have sympathy for Steel's comments? Probably. Thing is, you can't make a league out of the good franchises here, and this year's revelations (the Washington teams) have nowhere to go once this league goes down and once af2's West Coast teams go where they're headed. Moreover, everyone ELSE in the Northwest got to witness the IPFL in Portland (a wretched story) and Boise and some rotten "attempted" dealings with the NIFL in Eugene and Boise, so I can't see how Everett and Tri-Cities will get any regional help. Obviously, Spokane hasn't shown any interest. Mind you, I'm a bit suspicious of the numbers and other issues in Kennewick.

[nksports]

This just in from NIFL: (Thursday, June 16)
"The NIFL has suspended the New Jersey Xtreme for the remainder of the season. Control of the franchise is now under the NIFL. Reasons for this suspension are violation of league rules and policies. The future of the franchise will be decided after the end of the current season. No other details will be released."

The violation of league rules and policies probably have something to do with the fact that the team has no money!!!!

The first one bites the dust.

And move Billings from healthy to question mark. The Billings newspaper recently reported that attendances have dropped to around 1000-800 in recent games. The ownership group vows a return for next season, but we'll see.

[Pounder]

Elsewhere, I posted what I thought the league would look like if there were "acceptable" ownership / organizational standards set by the league:

Corpus Christi
Odessa
Everett
Wyoming
Montgomery
River City (maybe)
Fayetteville (maybe)

I'm comfortable with scratching Fayetteville from my list, though it seems to me from the scant stuff I've read that the attendances they aren't announcing are higher (per Observer columnist) than most of the "posted lies errr numbers" of other teams. I'd heard that Corpus has been getting "good" attendance numbers... obviously subject to change. My understanding is that the Tri-Cities posted numbers are questionable, and there's been a history of same at the Family Center (River City).

To be honest, I'm not enamored with indoor football... though I keep promising myself to make a drive up to Kennewick or Billings or Casper soon (I've been to a handful of games, anyway). That being said, I think there's something to consider here. In most of these cities, an owner is not going to be given time to make the product work. If you don't draw more than half your building out the gate (north of 5,000 is also a good benchmark), then it only takes one "there's trouble in River City" column in the paper to put doubts in the minds of the remaining fans, who won't put the investment in to keep buying tickets if they think the team is going to fall out from under them. Just remember that the column that suggests this is only credible when the fans in the arena notice how sparse the crowds are; lying about it afterward is worse.

[ChampionOfSteel]

This just in from NIFL: (Thursday, June 16)
"The NIFL has suspended the New Jersey Xtreme for the remainder of the season. Control of the franchise is now under the NIFL. Reasons for this suspension are violation of league rules and policies. The future of the franchise will be decided after the end of the current season. No other details will be released."

Once again, when word gets out to the common man that follows his local NIFL team, attendance will drop for all teams remaining in the league because it dampens the spirit of following the league. Few people I know continue to follow a team in a league where one or more teams do not complete their season.

The league doesn't control the New Jersey Xtreme. The creditors control the Xtreme -- unpaid hotel bills, airfare, greyhound bus usage, arena rental, uniform and equipment outstanding bills, unpaid players and coaches, and whoever else is owed money for goods and services provided.

[nksports]

And let's face it, New Jersey wasn't that competitive in the first place.
Whose idea was it to sign a lease at the Meadowlands? "We'll we have no money in the first place, let's blow everything we have on a barn that will bankrupt us and ensure our demise." They lasted what, 2 or 3 weeks there.
It will be interesting to see who else fails before the season ends. Fortunately, there are only a couple more weeks left before the end of the season.
My bet (and I'll wager a good 2 to 3 ¢ here — never bet what you can't afford to lose) is Lincoln is next to fold. The attendance is poor and they are getting stomped every week.
The Florida teams will likely limp to the finish and then close up shop as soon as the season is over.
Dayton and Cincinnati will probably both wind up on the auction block. The fans seem to have taken to both franchises, even though the owners are broke.
The Texas teams may need to go back to the league they had last year.
It does hurt the fans when all of this happens.
While the UIF's start may not have been stellar (especially with the Dayton situation), their owners may have been right to bolt. The UIF maybe needs to pickoff the healty markets and leave the NIFL to die.
To the NIFL's credit, they have tried to go to markets where no pro team has gone before. They have just done it with too many underfunded ownership groups, leaving too many fans with too many bad feelings that take a long time to heal.

[tony-o]

I like the idea of the Intense Football league teams starting that up again along with the Beaumont Drillers and some expansion teams. Maybe they can reel Amarillo back in, but I doubt it.

[centurionhater]

I believe that a similar league in the true Southeast would be able to reduce costs enough to build a strong league. The league, as an entity, would have to be there as a non for profit concept. The individual team owners would have to acknowledge breaking even would be a good year. You get enough of the teams that are already in existance and it would be a feasible idea.

South Division
Daytona, FL ???? (AIFL)
Lakeland, FL (if Dell Martin were to have total control)
Ft. Lauderdale/Palm Beach, FL
Central Florida/Space Coast, FL area
South Florida/Tampa, FL area
Gainesville/Lake City, FL area
Tallahassee/Big Bend, FL area
Jacksonville, FL area
Panhandle, FL area

North Division
ROME, GA (NIFL)
Columbia, SC
Greenville, SC
Charleston, SC
Fayetteville, NC (NIFL)
Greensboro, NC
Raliegh, NC (AIFL)
Charlotte, NC
Montgomery, AL (NIFL)

it could be so easy!!!

[nksports]

Here's the update:
Daytona Beach — dead
New Jersey — dead
Lincoln — dead
On life support: (We're probably only days away from announcements that the teams have folded)
Miami
Fayetteville
Kissimmee
Dayton (the upcoming press conference may save this team to survive the playoffs, but creditors may have the repo men coming in).
Cincinnati
Beaumont
Billings
On the bubble (Owners are probably in the process of looking for new investors or different cities/leagues to move to)
San Angelo
Rome
Lakeland
Lubbock
SW Louisiana
Corpus Christi
Solid (but owners might want to start looking for a new league to join):
Everett
Montgomery
Wyoming
Odessa
River City
Tri-Cities (Washington not Nebraska)
At this point, the only way I see the NIFL surviving is for the solid owners to dump the league upper office and reorganize by setting up three or four six- to eight-team regional leagues. Eliminate out of division play until the playoffs.
Insist on a cash bond upfront equal to one season's payroll (from front office to coaches, players and down to the ballboy — everybody), travel expenses, arena rent, practice facility rent, equipment and all other operating expenses.
The league should insist that teams play in the smallest building practical (for example in Dayton, that might be Hara Arena instead of Nutter Center. In Cincy, that might be the Cincinnati Gardens. Often older, smaller building will offer better rent deals. Besides, an older building often has better atmosphere. I seriously doubt many (if any) skyboxes are sold at NIFL arenas.
The best solution might be for the league to fold (if it isn't forced out of business by some sort of lawsuit) and to start from scratch.

[Pounder]

The whole reason the NIFL exists is that it attracts investors who feel priced out of af2, which appears to be a scheme to line the pockets of AFL owners. Of course, af2 has a healthy casualty count, certain to continue after the current season.

There's already a league built from dissatisfied (and sometimes successful) NIFL owners, and that might only serve to prove how Rome (whether Italy or Georgia... but I've been to Rome, Oregon, a place even Joe Newman might think isn't worthy of an ABA team) wasn't built in a day. UIF has its own set of problems: Rapid City, Peoria, Tupelo... and it wouldn't surprise me if one of the supposedly better teams ends up in the noose (I mentioned Lexington earlier, they seem to have been bought out and saved, but I still can't fathom anyone renting Rupp Arena).

This whole level of the sport leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of people have a lot of work to do to convince me that any of these operations are sustainable over the long term.

[ChampionOfSteel]

The whole reason the NIFL exists is that it attracts investors....

Bull! What exactly do these owners invest of their own personal money?! It's all virtually debt financing!

UIF has its own set of problems: Rapid City, Peoria, Tupelo... and it wouldn't surprise me if one of the supposedly better teams ends up in the noose

Quite possible, but that would occur in the offseason not during the season.

This whole level of the sport leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of people have a lot of work to do to convince me that any of these operations are sustainable over the long term.

You don't get it. It's honorable to fold teams in the offseason. It is unacceptable to fold teams during the season. At least everyone gets paid because the ownership had the funds to complete an entire season.

[ChampionOfSteel]

Insist on a cash bond upfront equal to one season's payroll (from front office to coaches, players and down to the ballboy — everybody), travel expenses, arena rent, practice facility rent, equipment and all other operating expenses.

This is the way it should be!

[minnfan]

Once again, when word gets out to the common man that follows his local NIFL team, attendance will drop for all teams remaining in the league because it dampens the spirit of following the league. Few people I know continue to follow a team in a league where one or more teams do not complete their season.

Now this really is what comes from the back end of a bull.

FAMILY IN MONTANA...."Hey kids, there's a team down in Texas that just folded in mid-season, guess we'd better burn our season tickets and skip the rest of our teams games, hunh?"

Whatever it is you're selling Chumpionofsteel, I'm not buying.

[Jamie]

CoS is funny that way.

[ChampionOfSteel]

Now this really is what comes from the back end of a bull.

FAMILY IN MONTANA...."Hey kids, there's a team down in Texas that just folded in mid-season, guess we'd better burn our season tickets and skip the rest of our teams games, hunh?"

Whatever it is you're selling Chumpionofsteel, I'm not buying.

Some hillbilly family in Montana would not have season tickets in the first place. It would be more of an excuse to get the old man out of the house to have his attention diverted away from the kids and old lady. The old man would be lucky to even know what was going on let alone what was going on elsewhere in the league. So there is a very small percentage that see this soley as a reason to get out of the house.

The transition to lose interest begins the following year for season ticket sales because the current season ticket for the current year are still in use. Walkup ticket sales drop fast and immediately.

Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about.

[Pounder]

Bull! What exactly do these owners invest of their own personal money?! It's all virtually debt financing!

Some of it is debt financing, some of it is potential sponsor money, some of it is trust money that needs to be spent somewhere or else, and some of it is a front for drug money laundering (at least that's my pet ABA theory). Generally, you're right. Specifically, even those sources have their limitations, including the debt financing. Notice that the rate of Donald Trump-inspired "second major leagues" have kind of fallen to the floor lately. Smart people are actually wary of debt these days.

You don't get it. It's honorable to fold teams in the offseason. It is unacceptable to fold teams during the season. At least everyone gets paid because the ownership had the funds to complete an entire season.

Honor? This is all about risk. Owners KNOW that. Folks, there's a reason that wrasslin' shows have kind of cycled in and out of favor over the last century.

[nksports]

Who would lend someone money for something like that?
If I went to a bank and said "I need about $1,000,000 to start a minor league indoor football team. I have limited assets of my own. I have done no market research. I have no business plan. I have no idea if this thing will fly." I think the bank would laugh me out of the place.
The latest from Dayton is the Warbirds owners claim (according to a Dayton Daily News story) all of the problems of CSM don't really exist and that they don't owe anyone money because they only bought the assets of the Warbirds and not the debts (I wonder if that includes player contracts).
They claim the team is coming back next year under a new name.
The old owner of the Warbirds claims consipracy by the UIF was the reason he lost the team (They must have conspired to find out he didn't have any money).
And the beat goes on.

[exit322]

Here, I think Jodway actually has the funds to run a team...so I don't know about that.

[nksports]

As if this poor league doesn't have enough problems:
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050805/BIZ01/508050383/1076/BIZ
I don't know how ASCAP will collect. I don't think the Marshalls have an owner at this point.

[Jamie]

I would think that ASCAP could successfully sue USBank Arena... go for the deep pockets.

[ChampionOfSteel]

As if this poor league doesn't have enough problems:
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050805/BIZ01/508050383/1076/BIZ
I don't know how ASCAP will collect. I don't think the Marshalls have an owner at this point.

That one would have gotten past me. I vaguely remember something about licensing music at a public event. That's a big price tag to play music at an event...legally.

Something like that could easily get overlooked I would think.

[centurionhater]

In my personal opinion:

Is that lying league President Carolyn Shiver still involved?

Is that low life crook Tony Pewonski, CSM, still involved?

If the answer to either above question is yes, then the NIFL is a worthless piece of crap!

And I am happy Daytona Beach kicked their sorry tails out of town...

Although the Thunder Logo SUCKS!

We are now the Kreatures of the AIFL

[nksports]

I would think that ASCAP could successfully sue USBank Arena... go for the deep pockets.

That would be interesting. I know that when bars have live music or have juke boxes, they have to have licsences from ASCAP and BMI. I doubt the arena is directly involved with the team other than as landlord-tenant, but it could be argued they have some responsibilty.
On the other hand, the last I heard, the arena owners were in bankruptcy. It was the same group that owned the Cincy Cyclones hockey team that owned the arena and both entities were under reorganization bankruptcy. The Cyclones were dormant last season and are still under suspended operations, but not officially folded.
As for the Marshalls, their owner disappeared after (hilarious irony) US Bank sued him for bounced checks. One of the players (a former NFLer) funded the team to host a playoff game.
At one point, Cincy's equipment was all repossessed.
What's not so funny is Cincy drew decent crowds and would be a great market for a well-run team (preferably in a league other than the NIFL).

[wncsport.com]

I wonder how many other baseball, basketball, and hockey teams pay this fee.

I do know that arena managers basically put in leases that the sole responsibility of securing those licenses are the teams.

[Pounder]

I have a message for the fans on the NIFL board... but I haven't the heart to register over there when my presence there will equate to nothing more than pissing in their cornflakes.

I'm curious where the information arose for expansion to Boise and Spokane, OTHER than the Tri-City Herald. Well, at least I've seen speculation in Spokane, so maybe that's true.

There's just no word out of Boise... and the last attempt was met with serious derision. The impression I received previously was that the arena they're targeting wants nothing to do with the NIFL. There's just nothing from the Idaho Statesman regarding this. Admittedly, I've probably been out of state in the last 45 days as much as I've been in state, but even then I'd have heard something by now.

[ChampionOfSteel]

I have a message for the fans on the NIFL board... but I haven't the heart to register over there when my presence there will equate to nothing more than pissing in their cornflakes.

I was kicked off that board.

I was told in so many words publically by the administrator that I was a pain-in-the-beep. I kept offering suggestions on improving the league and stating constructive criticism.

The hay that broke the camel's back was a comment made in jest. I made a comment about some fat person wasting my time in line at the Nutter Center buying tickets. I stated the fat ladies were wasting my time because they were there to socialize rather than watching the game.

Apparently the NIFL forum guy was looking for an out to get me out of the picture (detrimental to the NIFL was more like it from his perspective).

I told everyone around me in line to just buy the cheapest ticket and sit anywhere you want. The ticket manager (young high school girl) was peddling higher priced ticket at everyone else's expense in line like she had all of the time in the world. It reminded me of my sister's May Kay cosmetics sales pitch which was time consuming each time it was tried for each person in line.

She tried this with me as well (high pressure sales). I finally said NO! SELL ME TWO OF YOUR CHEAPEST TICKETS!

It was the amateur hour at the Nutter Center that night in the ticket sales area.

If the team management had half a brain, they'd sell "first available" tickets 45 minutes before game time just like the Dayton Bombers hockey team. There would be no dickering for seat location.

[teentails]

Couldn't Colorado Springs be a good market for the NIFL?

[nksports]

Right now, the NIFL is so poorly run, there is no good market for the league.

[fwp]

It's easy to bash when you have virtually no involvement.

Many tough situations happened in the league this year. Things that you like to focus on. That being said, there were many great things that happened as well.

The offseason turmoil led many people outside the league to predict that the NIFL would not finish the season. There were a few unfortunate casualties, but the league finished strong.

Some of the best ownership groups in all of minor league sports are now involved with the NIFL, and I wouldn't be surprised to see many of them step forward in a leadership role to help the NIFL ensure that they avoid issues that they ran into at all costs.

Many don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and many would be shocked at how much effort goes into correcting problems and making the best of a bad situation.

The league had some of the best offensive stars at this level and great action from week to week. Many of the Coaches would be considered top notch at this level and there were some defensive squads that were very impressive.

After this season there will no doubt be some very good announcements, and some that won't seem so good on the surface.

I expect a much more stable year 6 for the NIFL. The landscape of football at this level has changed dramatically over the last year, it's going to be an interesting offseason.

[Tater]

We've been saying that the NIFL would be stronger and brighter every year since inception. However, we still get to talk about the same crapola happening again and again every year. We've seen no real changes. Add this, add that. Still have teams not finishing the season. Owners with multiple teams and all of them fail. It's really ridiculous. My personal opinion is that it starts at the top, but that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[centurionhater]

No Tater you're not wrong.

Someone said the NIFL finished strong....They must have rode on the short bus.

If one single player in the NIFL doesn't get paid then how can one "Finish Strong"?

When the league president lies about it in an attempted cover up with a large market (Orlando) newspaper.

We here in Central Florida only need one rat, and that rat isn't conected to the NIFL.

[nksports]

It's easy to bash when you have virtually no involvement.
I admidt I have no personal involvement in the NIFL and in the grand scheme of things, I don't have much of an emotional attachment. I do like the sport and I'm a bit of a student of the business of sports, so my observations are more detatched.
But I don't bash (as some might accuse me of) just to bash — and frankly, it would be better to not have to bash.
To say the league ended strong is a wee bit of a stretch. When playoff teams are bounced. When other have to give up home games or have players pony up money to keep a home date. When franchises don't finish the season. When a large number of franchises can't afford to pay their players. With about 2/3 of the teams in the league are ready to go belly up, these are not the hallmarks of a league finishing strong. (Some of those — Dayton and Cincninnati come immediately to mind — would be very successful with decent ownership.)
You have teams bounced from their arenas. You have teams getting equipment repoed.
Very few franchises averaged more than 2,000 a game. Some averaged less than 1,000. For most franchises at this level about 3,000 to 3,500 paid is the break-even.
The cold hard facts are most minor-league leagues and teams fail. More fail than make it. There are a lot of factors involved — some beyond the control of the best financed owners.
For a minor league team to succeed, you have to have the right people in the right place at the right time. It's hard, it's expensive and it's still a gamble.
An owner has to be part Malcolm Forbes and part P.T. Barnum. To get a family to part with it's hard-earned money, you have to give them an entertaining evening at the arena plus a credible sporting event.
But when a league fails to do basic due diligence, like run background and credit checks on its owners, it is doomed to failure.
And the biggest losers in all of this are the fans (followed by the players and coaches and employees for the team who aren't paid). When a poorly run franchise goes bad, it makes it harder for a better ownership group to succeed. Potential sponsors get cold feet. It's harder to sell tickets or generate any kind of enthusiasm.
If someone were to ask me what league to put their franchise, I'd probably advise them to save their money.
AFL and af2 are the best known and best run leagues, but they require a very large capital outlay at the start and have the biggest risks. They have had their share of franchise problems (and they are the best model).
UIF and AIFL are both new and the jury is still out. Both have had good things happen this season and both have had bad things happen.
NIFL has had a few franchises do well, but too many are in too bad a shape.
APFL is ultra low budget and makes very few pretentions of being otherwise. They've got some problems and some potential.
There are some new leagues cropping up or on the drawing board.
Having said that, the best chance for an enterprise to succeed is being up front. The fans, sponsors, media and more can tell doo-doo from Shinola. Even when things are going bad, don't gloss it over.
And pray every day that you aren't ever involved with the AAPBL.
That is my rant.

[fwp]

AFL isn't relevant to this conversation, as they are on another level. af2's rep is riding on the AFL coattails, and although it doesn't have some of the problems of the other leagues, it seems to be a city killer at that level because of the high cost and the appearance that it's the minor league of a minor league.

There were some problems in the NIFL, much publicity that went with that. It's a league that is dependent on the individual owners and the area that failed the most was the situation in Florida. There are things in the works to correct and improve situations in the future. If time was spent going over franchise by franchise you'd see that there were many more solid ownership groups than not. The solid ownership groups are making moves to solidify the league.

Yes, this was the 5th year of the NIFL, but with the big change over this last offseason most of the ownership groups were new. I find it interesting that you're so willing to give the UIF a free pass, when the league was full of teams that have more longevity than almost the entire NIFL. Interestingly, the UIF had a group of owners that were also in leadership positions in their former league, there should be no free pass. Granted, the UIF was better at keeping their issues quiet, it doesn't mean there weren't problems. I guess I'd be more disappointed if players and coaches weren't being paid on a team that's been around for a number of years and has won more than one league championship.

This is not to downplay the issues that need to be worked on in the NIFL, some of it seems unforgiveable, but in reality the NIFL had less veteran ownership than they've had in sometime. It may have been closer to a brand new league than some of the others popping up.

There are some franchises that need serious work, some that may not be worth it, but some that have brought some great fans and interest from potential new owners that want to fix the franchise in their city. Great fans and great action. If you really did look close at the teams in the playoffs there were many more great stories than we've seen in a number of years. Shoot, the championship game was a sellout for the second straight year. Sold out within approx. 24 hours of when the tickets went on sale.

There were franchises where indoor football was new to the community and attendance grew throughout the season. It's hard to get a grasp on what the real numbers are in that area, which is somewhat frustrating.

UIF shouldn't be given a bye, they had their problems too, just did a better job keeping their problems under wraps for the most part. AIFL, I'd agree with you, I don't know much about them but they are fairly new, this next season will tell a lot. APFL fills it's niche and may be taking the smartest path of all the leagues.

I'm not saying that the NIFL doesn't need work, serious work. But to single that league out and to ignore all the good things going on with solid ownership groups across the league seems to be serving somewhat of an agenda.

[Pounder]

I think the difference is that individual teams in UIF gave the appearance of covering up stuff (hello, Peoria), while the league management of the NIFL leaves a LOT to be desired. It is kind of humorous that the UIF teams that bolted were most of the better draws in the NIFL, and subsequently went a "little" Keystone Kops on themselves. However, I only see seven truly viable NIFL teams now, and they don't make for a neat geographical alignment.

The sport as a whole seems to attract these kind of problems. I'm not here to single out the NIFL when even the AFL has its moments (and seems poised to have more of them)... but that only means the NIFL has that much LESS room to make mistakes. They make too many. That they've survived them to this point is somewhat close to stunning IMO. However, if anyone ever asks me if I'd invest money in the thing, I'd be pissing in a LOT of cornflakes. Of course, I'd probably say the same thing about any indoor football league.

[Pounder]

I have a message for the fans on the NIFL board... but I haven't the heart to register over there when my presence there will equate to nothing more than pissing in their cornflakes.

I'm curious where the information arose for expansion to Boise and Spokane, OTHER than the Tri-City Herald. Well, at least I've seen speculation in Spokane, so maybe that's true.

There's just no word out of Boise... and the last attempt was met with serious derision. The impression I received previously was that the arena they're targeting wants nothing to do with the NIFL. There's just nothing from the Idaho Statesman regarding this. Admittedly, I've probably been out of state in the last 45 days as much as I've been in state, but even then I'd have heard something by now.

Well, af2 apparently announced Spokane, Stockton, EVERETT, and Biloxi as new franchises.

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050828/SPORTS/508280333/1001/SPORTS

Sure enough, the NIFL site is down.

[nksports]

Sure enough, the NIFL site is down.

Back in the 1940s, 50s, 60s and 70s, people (like the CIA) would read every Soviet newspaper and listen to every broadcast from Radio Moscow, listening to every inflection, looking at what order everybody was pictured in the group shot of the central committee.
When the radio news broadcasts halted, followed by hours of nothing but marshall music, it meant the chairman had died.
I wonder what this means?

[Jamie]

I think it means that the site was hacked again.

And since it is off-season, no one thinks it important enough to spend the time and money to get it up again ASAP to satisfy a bunch of message board junkies...

Honestly, no one else in the world, but the few of us, care...

[daytonadan]

Hey Jaime, how are you?

We're already looking forward to the Troy vs. Daytona Beach game. I already have a great promotion "Does Tony Pewonski owe you money? night.

--I am NOT Centurionhater

[Pounder]

And since it is off-season, no one thinks it important enough to spend the time and money to get it up again ASAP to satisfy a bunch of message board junkies...

You're no fun. :D

Well, I was about to get publically wistful about old Soviet paranoia, but I'm having such fun with these neo-cons and the Armageddon Theory... honestly, if it was about oil, would you hand the keys for Iraq over to Shi'ites?

Back to our regularly scheduled boredom.

[centurionhater]

I feel it is important for my own ego to dispell all rumors that I, Centurionhater, am also daytonadan (or daytonadan isn't I).

Daytonadan has his own issues with CSM, NIFL, CS, and TP. None of those crooks and or liars, personally owe me any money. However, I am insulted that a supposed minor professional football league and team disrespects the game so much.

I do apologize for any confusion or lack of harm to daytonadan's rep.

Double-D, you got better look'n for awhile there...

Everyone keep on hate'n, those of whom deserve it!

THE CENTURIONHATER

[daytonadan]

King Kong got nothing on you, Centurionhater...

[F_CSM]

I'm not daytonadan either!

Hey Dan, did you write your own press release about your new PR job? Don't hurt yourselF patting yourselF on the back! Hey, just kidding...Good luck with that gig...hopeFully things will work out better this year.

[daytonadan]

You're lucky that's the short version of my bio.....

[Hammerhead]

Southwest Louisiana / Lake Charles reports one freaking game a year, and they hang around. It's possible they save money by not hiring a stat freak. That probably only proves how annoying this league is.
Just because a team doesn't report the attendance on the stats sheet doesn't automatically makes them worthless, poorly run, and therefore obviously on shaky ground. And by the way ... the stat freak can only put in the program the information they are given. Besides, have you ever been to a game in Lake Charles? Probably not. Your "guess" as to the status of the Lake Charles franchise (Southwest Louisiana Swashbucklers) is way off base. This franchise has been in place since the inception of the NIFL and is probably in the top 1-3 in terms of solidity in the league. The team just named its new head coach September 14th (Darnell Lee) to replace the departed Kip Texada (53-20 record), who resigned a few weeks ago due to a change in his real job.

This franchise will outlast the NIFL and it is my guess that if the team was in closer proximity to other teams in another league, the Swashbucklers would not be in the NIFL.

[nksports]

http://www.sanangelostandardtimes.com/sast/news_local/article/0,1897,SAST_4956_4094544,00.html (free registration required)

The San Angelo Stampede is asking it's city for money and free office space (vacated by the hockey team) to stay afloat. I could see the city doing it if only to make sure someone is in the building.

[preeths]

Whatever happens, it won't affect the NIFL now. The Stampede announced its return to the Intense Football League today.

[Pounder]

It is only fair to note that the NIFL site returned... without the message board.

That usually means the heat is too much for the management.

[Billy5]

[quote="Pounder"]It is only fair to note that the NIFL site returned... without the message board.

That usually means the heat is too much for the management.[/q


Weeks ago I e-mailed the new site and was told that "because of problems last year" there would not be a message board on the new site.
The NIFL is "the fan friendly league"!

[GLIFL FanClub]

Is there any news on Atlantic City returning?

[Jamie]

The NIFL is "the fan friendly league"!

It is only fair to note the the UIF has never had an official fan message board on their website either....

[nksports]

Is there any news on Atlantic City returning?

At this point, only rumor and speculation.
The NIFL is currently holding its league meetings in St. Louis, where, according to a River City Rage release, the league will announce expansion to about 30 teams (and I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale on e-bay).
That would mean about 14 to 22 new teams depending on who else bows out. (Talk about P.T. Barnum being right)

The AIFL and UIF should finalize things for the new season shortly (although I thought someone said the AIFL has its schedule set for 2006, so they may be done with expansion for this year, but I don't know if they got the Ghost Riders a home)

[Billy5]

It is only fair to note the the UIF has never had an official fan message board on their website either....[/quote]


Jamie,
You are right and they should. Just was stating the reason the new board did not have a fan message board. Thought it set a bad example to have one then take it away. The NIFL should be the trend setter. I really enjoyed it in Mobile years ago. I had 7 season tickets. In fact my son was the team ballboy for games.

[rams80]

Many team sites have links to this as the unofficial message board

www.unitedindoorfan.com

[#1 Guard Fan]

Kinda hard to add that many teams at once if there has not already been plans made. I think we might hear something like this out of the meetings....."We have pulled our heads out of our butts and we are going to join forces with the AIFL and give the fans a a good Indoor Football Product" Now that would be nice to hear. Ok I am back awake now must have been a dream.......lol

[nksports]

This just in, Kissimmee is now Osceola. It appears the team has a new ownership group (nobody I'd ever heard of). They plan to play in the same building. We'll see what happens.
Also Katy, Texas (a Houston suburb) just got a team.

[Jamie]

Never heard of Thurman Thomas?

[exit322]

I hear he wasn't too bad a football player.

Tecmo Super Bowl, baby!

[nksports]

My bad. In the release I saw, they've only got him listed as "Director of Football Operations" with two other doofuses (or it it doofae in the plural) as owners. If he invested, I'd have a serious talk with his financial advisor.

A Rage release now says the league will have 11 new teams. That will bring the total up to around 20 to 22. We'll see how many of these will survive.

I don't know if by 11 new teams, they mean that Osceola is a new team or just a revamped Kissimmee franchise.

[Leonard]

The NIFL must have caught "Mad Cow Disease!" Have they gone mad again. With 10 teams left; then they say they are adding 11...for 21. Mad Cow! Who are the 11 new franchises?

[Jamie]

William Shatner is the new Commissioner?

[Leonard]

Okay, 'beam' me up, Shiver. Or should that be 'Jim Beam me up.' Okay, so there are 11 new teams...where are they? Hidden in the bottle. So 'Beam' away....sorry, can't say 'Scottie' anymore. ANd he didn't see a lick of NIFL football.

[Leonard]

Just read an article from the Charleston Daily Mail. Said Shiver has teams in the following cities: Charleston (WVa), Chattanooga (TN), Greesboro (NC), Charlotte (NC), Monroe (LA), Lafayette (LA), Houston (TX), and Fort Collins (CO). Another debacle. Spread'em out and have the owners go broke on travel. Who would want to go into Charlotte and Houston? What's anyone's reaction to these franchises?

[nksports]

Houston is actually Katy, Texas (a suburb). With some of the others, if they are looking to move into the big buildings with the big rents then they are risking some big bankruptcies.

[afdave]

I think this article says it all:

http://www.dailymail.com/news/Sports/2005111125/

"I refinanced my house and I get my money (today)," said Martin, a self-described entrepreneur who lives in Kissimmee, Fla. "Basically, all I needed was a $10,000 letter of credit. That will be in the bank (today)."

And you wonder why some NIFL teams fail to make payments or even finish a whole season.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Sure would be nice to see something from the front office stating what is really going on. I have yet to hear anything solid after the league meetings. Come on people March is coming fast and we have nothing solid to go on. They keep saying they are going to have more teams lets see something solid. I am trying to stay positive about this but give me something to go on here.

[nksports]

Sounds like the NIFL is up to its old tricks. It seems they are putting a lot of lipstick on this pig. When this league falls, it's going to fall hard and the lawsuits are going to go on forever.

[Jamie]

I do not disagree that over-expansion is not a good thing... but every year we get these broad predictions of the fall of the NIFL... and yet they're still around...

[fwp]

Exactly, Jamie. It's the same people constantly predicting doom over and over again.

No doubt the league has a lot to work on after last season, but some of the most solid organizations at this level appear to be taking a leadership role. We haven't seen much officially released yet. While there appear to be some question marks in some of the articles we've seen, haven't heard anything that's official. It'll be interesting to see how things turn out.

Definitely some noteworthy names we're hearing tied to teams early. Thurman Thomas working with the Osceola Outlaws, and Ickey Woods as an assistant with Dayton?

Sounds like things are happening for your Warbirds, Jamie! :D

[#1 Guard Fan]

Yeah don't forget about Rex King.....Oh wait he is just a local Fayettveille guy trying to give Fayetteville a winning team.

[Pounder]

I can't get over the sense that the NIFL doesn't DESERVE to survive. What good is a league that doesn't hold rivalries long enough to actually thrive? What good is a league who does what they did to Lew in Denver?

Yet they somehow plod along.

Still, they've managed to staff another league or two simply with legions of those who believe highly in the incompetence of NIFL management

[Leonard]

Was that Rex Allen or Sky King? Couldn't get the connection. What is Fayetteville still doing in the NIFL when most of the other teams have defected to the AIFL?
Pounder, you were right about who deserves to be in the NIFL and who doesn't. A lot of players and coaches...oh administrative people still owed money.

[nksports]

I do not disagree that over-expansion is not a good thing... but every year we get these broad predictions of the fall of the NIFL... and yet they're still around...

When players, coaches, vendors and arenas all get paid, when every team actually finishes the season, when solid teams don't bolt to other leagues, then I will believe the league is on solid footing. Right now it is all new money from expansion franchises and new investors covering losses from the previous season. There is nothing going on right now that inspires confidence.

[Jamie]

I never said they were on solid footing.

I never even said the survival of the NIFL is a good thing.

Just stating a fact, that the organization has more staying power than some would like to think.

Please don't quote me, then debunk an argument I never made.

[Jerry]

The only teams which have "bolted" from the NIFL this year is Rome and those 4 teams who went back to the IFL. And two of those are not a for certain gone deal. Not exactly a mass exodus of teams.

[fwp]

Everett as well, but they left with skeleton's in their closet.

The same few poster(s) continually rake the NIFL over the coals. There are things that need to improve, in a big way in some cases. NIFL officials or fans don't deny that, but there are also some solid ownership groups that are working to improve things. It's a great product for the fans and the players, so we all hope for progress.

Nobody argues that things need to get better.

These same posters choose to ignore other league's that have teams that seem to have the same problems. In some cases, the problems of these other teams are as bad or worse than what we read about on here from the same poster(s).

[nksports]

There are two leagues with worse track records right now — The revived ABA and the AAPBL (which turned out to be a scam from the start).

[nksports]

And don't forget the abortive attempts to start the new WHA.

[Leonard]

Katy, Texas, is IN, the NIFL. That's ONE Shiver....where's the other 10? How does the league expect to have 31 teams? By the way, Katy is just west of Houston. It's just outside the loop. I was in Sugarland to see an uncle a number of years ago. Nice area. And if you look up the Leonard (that's not me) E. Merrell Center, you will find that it is a nice arena, farely new and holds 5,600 for hockey and indoor football. Could be a successful franchise. As for the other promises, Charlotte, Charleston, Lafayette & Monroe (La.), Chattanoooga, Fort Collins, Greesboro (NC) and West Palm.

[jwalters]

I really don't know why the NIFL keeps promising West Palm Beach. There isn't a suitable arena in the area. The Auditorium was sold to the Jehovah's Witnesses of Florida and is not used for sports any longer. The nearest thing would be the "place your name here" corporate arena in Sunrise and it seats more than 19,000 for indoor football. I seriously doubt any owner in the NIFL could afford the rent on the place. Here's an idea the NIFL could move the always promised West Palm Beach franchise to Puerto Rico. The coliseum in San Juan holds 16,500 for indoor football. I'm guessing it would be cheaper, more along the lines of the Miami Arena. I am of course joking about Puerto Rico but if you're going to dream big why not go all the way, right.

[mrcool92501]

jwalter,the puerto rico coquis of the nifl!!!

[jwalters]

Viva Coquis!!! Ribit, Ribit, Ribit!!! I can hear the people making the frog sound now.

[Leonard]

Only the NIFL would think about going to the land of soccer and baseball. That would be another big loser...in the way of finances.
So, where are the teams? I see only one emerge in Katy, Texas.

[Pounder]

Only the NIFL would think about going to the land of soccer and baseball. That would be another big loser...in the way of finances.

Hey, be fair... af2 failed in Rochester. Of course, you could argue some about their baseball support.

[nksports]

C-Man, you're back dude. Long time, no rant to see. You all drinking the same bong water out of NIFL Central better watch out now.

:evil: :twisted: :evil:

[Leonard]

Thank you C-Man. You could not have said it better. Actually, many of us are not on the 'bandwagon' for the NIFL, we are on the 'hatewagon' as you are. Just fun to talk about how disgusting some of the ownerships have been at the 'lower level' of the indoor game. Yes, run'em out of town, on a rail to boot. They, and we know who that is, screwed a lot of players, coaches and admin staff out of money and more. Applaud the C-man and his campaign.

[fwp]

Glad you're finally up and about after your surgery, Dan.

Hope your feeling better!

[daytonadan]

Seriously, we turned a negative in a positive. I got 5 days of sleep in the coma and lost 17 pounds.

I've never felt better, and was very humbled by the support my family and I received.

[Leonard]

Not the way you want to lose 17 pounds. Glad you made it through the ordeal of the coma. I was sorry to hear about it. If I'm not mistaken, I think we met years ago in Orlando at a Predators game. I was in that wonderful Florida city for a conference. Went to a game and since that press area is on the upper concourse, I was able to meet some people. Anyway, glad to hear you near full strength. Keep up the fine work.

[Minor League Man]

Here are the arenas I'm guessing:

Fort Collins: Budweiser Events Center
Monroe: Monroe Civic Center
Chattanooga: MacKenzie Arena
Charlotte: Cricket Arena
Greensboro: Greensboro Coliseum
Bozeman: Valley IceGarden? (on second thought, they could put a rug there)
Charleston: I dunno

BTW, the NIFL also wanted to put a team in BankAtlantic Center in 2005, but was unable to do so. Maybe this year...

[Leonard]

Minor League Man: Charleston, W.Va., Civic Center would be where the team would play. Has the capacity or 5,000 or a little more. Last indoor game in there that I remember was 2001 when AFL Houston ThunderBears played the San Jose SaberCats. It was a league game that attracted about 2,500...not too good. Anyway, I would like to see what the other arenas capacities are.

[tejahklee]

The Big Sky Thunder is the name, they will play at the Valley Ice Garden, which seats 3100.

[jwalters]

The Charleston Civic Center seats more than 12,000 for basketball. It is built in just about the same shape as the Mohegan Sun Arena which seats 10,000 for basketball. When the AF2 played at the Mohegan Sun it seated a little over 7,300. So seeing as the arenas are built the same way the Charleston Civic Center should seat a little more than 9,000 for indoor football. Because it is 2,000 seats larger. It is a pretty good sized place.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Ok when are we going to see the rest of the "other" teams start make news releases. I figured we might have seen more offical news by now?????

[fwp]

I would imagine that the league is trying to finalize before announcing. Something that is refreshing.

I did notice that there's an article for your team in your local paper. It has a little more info than I'd seen before.

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=sports&Story=7243933

[#1 Guard Fan]

Yeah i was just getting ready to post the link but you beat me to it. If that works out it would be really good because then us fans could drive to more games. :lol:

[Gusher]

I sure hope that there will be more teams in the Texas - La area. With the loss of the teams to the intense leauge travel for the DRK Driller Road Krewe may be very limited. (Katy)

[Rooster]

From my conversation with media members, 31 teams got voted in at the league meetings. Of course most of them, like Katy and Monroe, have virtually no up front capital and are banking on season ticket revenue and sponsorship to limp through a season.

Essentially for only a $10,000 investment anyone of us could be "awarded" an expansion franchise since few teams have a realistic business model or budget. Hence, you got slappys like the fellow in W.VA mortgaging his house to pay league dues (I'd be slightly worried about playing or coaching for that guy and cashing my checks as soon as I got it from him).

Finally, one of you hit the nail on the head - there is no incentive to buy season tickets in the NIFL. Argue with me if you want but everything (TV, sponsorship, concessions,etc.) bow to attendance. Season tix are to sports teams what contracts are for cell phone companies, it allows them to budget for next year.

Always ask a team for their drop count, actual ticket stubs from the turnstills, as attendance cannot be reported as in the NIFL or inflated as in the Arena Football League.

[Leonard]

You are correct Rooster (and I would rather be a Rooster on Thanksgiving than a Turkey, or is rooster a male foul or a foul male?)
Anyway, these Flim Flam Phonies who have dotted the NIFL are just that. To mortagage your house for a franchise is utterly rediculous. On the other hand, this is the way Shiver runs the NIFL. No regard to who comes in...does not want bank statements etc. They'll go if they have the dough, is the motto. The AIFL is looking into ownership with a lot more scrutiny and yes, as Haines has said he has made a few mistakes, but far less than the NIFL to date.Af2 looks into ownership even more, despite all the failed franchises it has not been totally because of financing. Costs have risen in af2, as they have in the AFL, and it is just natural for some to drop by the wayside.

[nksports]

They'll go if they have the dough, is the motto.
They seem to go even when they don't have the dough.

[Leonard]

Doe Rae Me! Yes, you are right, they do give franchises with or without the dough.
It's all about collecting the initiation fees. That's what she does. The league still owes the officials more than $70,000. Don't bet that the NFL will help assign officials next season.
As for other options, the league has none.

[Gusher]

Wow How much do the officals get paid per game. And who pays them NIFL NFL or is it up to the home team?

[Leonard]

Officials in all the 'lesser' leagues (excluding AFL) get $100 to $150 per game and expenses depending on if they have to drive or fly. Plus hotel rooms and per diem. A lot of checks bounced with half a dozen teams in the NIFL which the teams were responsible for each night. At least that's what I have been told by some of the friends of mine who officiate in other leagues.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Well if they (the refs) keep going back to the teams that give them bad checks then they are stupid people. "Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me." I think the owners should have to have a solid income before the league just lets you start a team. Counting on tickets sales and sponsers is no way to try and make a team work. I have always heard that the first two years you are in the RED. Sure would be nice to hear some more solid info on the "new" teams that are coming to North Carolina

[afdave]

If I was a official I'd want to get paid at halftime of the game.... in cash. If they didn't pay me, see ya. Have fun with a game without refs. See how that does them :)

[Leonard]

Officials in the NIFL were to be paid before the game (with a check). I'm wondering if the NFL will will be involved with the NIFL in supplying the officials again this year. After such a 'nightmare' as it was last year with a number of the teams and the league office, I wonder if the NFL will return.

[Billy5]

When is the NIFL going to update the staus of teams for this year? Thirty-one teams? SURE. Two-thirds of the teams are profitable and on solid financial ground ? RIGHT. Just follow league's proven five year plan per CS. OK. One release even talked about the new Katy team being in the same division as teams that have already left for the IFL and SW LA is still on their site even with it having the IFL logo on the team website. I love indoor football but how can they expect fans to buy season tickets when one owner had to borrow the $10,000 filling fee by taking out a loan on his house? All of this plus reports that the refs were not paid in many cases. If that is true, do you think the NIFL will ever get another bite of the NFL apple?

[#1 Guard Fan]

Update???????????????????????
I guess this will be another week of no updates. How can fans get pumped when we are being treated like mushrooms.....(Kept in the dark and feed poop)

[#1 Guard Fan]

Looks like we got a new team in Tn today. Ok now lets work on getting some more teams in NC. We the Guard need teams a little closer to get a good rivalry going

[preeths]

Greensboro is supposedly on the table, and it wouldn't surprise me to see something out of there before Christmas.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Well that would be a nice Christmas present for us. Thanks for the insight

[Leonard]

My sources, on the condition of anonymity, tell me besides the $77,000 the NIFL owes its officials for the 2005 season, the NFL is backing out of their agreement to help find, train and schedule officials for the coming year. Doesn't surprise the officials I have spoken to in the past couple of weeks. In fact, one in Texas told me that CS attempted to get a restraining order against the IFL and those teams who bolted out of the NIFL (Corpus Christy, Odessa and San Angelo). Seems the judge said they should settle their differences by early January and told Shiver: "You better get this settled on your own, because you (Shiver) don't want to come before me the next time." Ron Baines, the NFL's representative, is retiring from the NFL, but will still be involved with the greatest sports league in the world, also told some of the officials: "We are done with the NIFL." Meaning, the NFL doesn't want to have anything to do with the NIFFLE because it (the NFL) "doesn't want the embarassment of being involved in such a league." Sources indicate that Shiver told team owners in St. Louis that everything was fine with the working agreement with the NFL. So, whose right here. Evidently the NIFL shot itself in the foot by not paying its bills, especially the ones to the officials.

[#1 Guard Fan]

I guess no new news good or bad over the last couple of weeks????

[Minor League Man]

Meaning, the NFL doesn't want to have anything to do with the NIFFLE because it (the NFL) "doesn't want the embarassment of being involved in such a league."

You're sounding a lot like Snoop Dogg!

[nksports]

In fact, one in Texas told me that CS attempted to get a restraining order against the IFL and those teams who bolted out of the NIFL (Corpus Christy, Odessa and San Angelo).

According to one newspaper, the judge required a bond before he would order the restraining order (common, since if the party loses the case the bond sometimes goes to the other party as damages for interfering in their business or it goes to the court, kind of a legal version of sports' protest fee). The NIFL decided not to post the bond (probably no money to do so), so the judge ordered the two parties to work it out. That seems to be where we are at at the moment.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Ok so what is the deal then are the teams in the NIFL or the IFL. It is like a dang soap opera. How can we ever get anywhere with crap like this always going on.

[preeths]

Each league claims SWLA and San Angelo. SWLA and San Angelo say they're in the IFL on their websites. Until they say differently, or a judge rules otherwise, they are part of the Intense Football League.

One very important thing to keep in mind: just because a lawsuit is filed, that doesn't mean the defendants are going to lose or the litigation is going to drive them into bankruptcy. Often the suits are a nuisance, and when the defendants don't back back down, the suits are dropped. Other times there are legitimate complaints, but it becomes clear to the plaintiff that nothing can be gained by pursuing expensive legal measures. Never predict doom and gloom simply because a suit is filed. In the short history of indoor football, how many of these suits have actually worked? The AFL-PIFL, IPFL-NIFL and NIFL-UIF actions all amounted to nothing, on the other hand.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Looks like another team had been added to today. River City has a team now. Where are the teams around North Carolina that were talked about. The season starts in March right?? Kinda hard to build a overall good team in such a short time

[fwp]

Looks like another team had been added to today. River City has a team now. Where are the teams around North Carolina that were talked about. The season starts in March right?? Kinda hard to build a overall good team in such a short time

Paul does a pretty good job of putting current links to press releases and newspaper articles on OSC's NIFL homepage.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/sports/?l_id=75

Near the bottom of that homepage there are links to newspaper articles, I don't know if you caught this current one. Hopefully it's good news out that way.

http://triad.bizjournals.com/triad/stories/2006/01/02/daily18.html

[preeths]

Thank you for the kind words, Fred. In addition, an article in the Greensboro paper mentioned a Charlotte team.

[#1 Guard Fan]

Well that is really good news to hear. I will be so happy to have some more NIFL teams in NC. It was killing our Guard last year with all the travel and stuff. Now we can talk smack to the in state boys too. To think I saw the news on here first before the league site. Keep up the good work

[#1 Guard Fan]

Looks like about 4 teams in the last 2 days. Keep up the good work....