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not so fast
10-12-2009, 09:02 AM
Okay, I have not looked at d-league threads in a long time. (mostly because this league is so political).

I have a question, has any player ever come to a D-League free agent try out, and ever made a roster? And if so, who are they?

This league is pushing free agent camps, and charging lots of money, and are beginning to look very ABAish in this money grab with camps.

Now if they are actually signing players (of which I doubt) then thats fine. I do know of several players that have been actively recruited for their camps, who very little talent and have no chance of making a roster.

minorleagfan09
10-12-2009, 09:20 AM
I'll answer this histroically, because with the current economic situation things are changing. But in the past you'd have around 50 players show up to a local tryout (much higher talent level than say a PBL tryout). One or two guys might make it from that camp. And when the season starts there might be one player from the tryout on the roster. Sometimes that player will make it through the whole season. Sometimes they get waived during the season.

Importantly, there are no guarantees you'll get drafted. As a free agent step one for a player should be to try and get signed overseas. Secondly you can talk with the D League and see if they'll sign you to a contract for the draft. If you aren't deemed talented enough for that you are left with open tryouts for D League, PBL, EBA, and ABA teams.

None of the leagues pay well. With the D League you do make a liveable wage, and of course it comes with some prestige that can help you get signed overseas the following season. The PBL doesn't really come with the same prestige, so if you sign with a team make sure it is a financially strong one. The EBA is nice because they play on Sundays. So you can have a job and play pro ball. The ABA is of course a joke and not worth your time. The media that knows about it laughs about it.

The fact of that matter is that all these minor leagues are something a player should just consider for a year or two. If he hasn't signed with an international team by then, then he definitely needs to be working full time at a career. So go out for the D-League or PBL for a year or two, but then after that hit the EBA and get a job.

TBirdCrazy
10-12-2009, 01:50 PM
articles about players from last season who went to local tryouts and made a team:
Part 1:
http://www.ridiculousupside.com/2009/9/8/1020351/from-local-tryouts-to-the-d-league

Part 2:
http://www.ridiculousupside.com/2009/9/10/1021843/from-local-tryouts-to-the-d-league

I can speak on Fred Gibson, as I follow ABQ. Fred never came to the local ABQ tryout, but did go to another local tryout. ABQ drafted him, I think, in the last round of the draft. He made the team, and contrary to what the article says, played well. I was there for every game last year and can say this: Fred may not have showed it in the boxscore, but he was a really talented player.

bectond
10-14-2009, 07:01 PM
Ron Howard is in camp with the NYN, he began his career as a try out invite with the Fort Wayne Mad Ants.

Each D-League Teams must bring at least one try-out player to camp.

not so fast
10-15-2009, 11:37 AM
Okay, there are a couple. But out of all these teams, and all these years, it does not seem like a realistic chance.

But my bigger point was, Why are they recruiting players for camp who cannot play? I can only think of one reason, and thats too make money. They have now found out that this is a quick money grab, but what bothers me is the D league stooping to low levels now, and outright lying to players.

Example, there was a young man at an international camp I ran recently, who told me that he was called by a d league coach and invited to a camp because they saw him at another d league free agent camp and liked him and wanted another look at him. Well the fact is, this player could not make an aba roster, so why would a d-league coach call him? Because they are after the money he would be willing to pay.

This is terrible and shameful on the part of the D-league, and maybe they will need to called the it now the b-league! For Bull****!

bectond
10-15-2009, 02:56 PM
If a parent club likes a player, or if a player elects not to enter the free agent draft pool because they want to play for a specific coach or play try-out for a specific team, those players go the try out route.

Also, in order to get in the free agent pool (for the draft) a team or the league has to recommend the player, therefore, for unknown players the camps allow them to be seen prior to Nov's draft.

The problem is not the D-league it's the fact that there are not enough lower level leagues that showcase talent, little known players have to go the try-out route to be seen.

bdyer
10-15-2009, 06:53 PM
I doubt the D-League makes any money on tryouts. The most the Toros could have possibly received in fees is $17,500 if registration maxed out and everybody applied late. Subtract from that venue rental and equipment and staff travel and lodging in several cases, etc.

If it is such a money grab, why place any restrictions on them at all?

not so fast
10-15-2009, 07:02 PM
bdyer, not sure what you mean, but it is clear they could make about 10,000 easy off these camps in clear profit, enough to help pay for a coach or for an asssitant coach.

minorleagfan09
10-15-2009, 08:14 PM
quin snyder must work cheap.

bdyer
10-16-2009, 02:23 AM
bdyer, not sure what you mean, but it is clear they could make about 10,000 easy off these camps in clear profit, enough to help pay for a coach or for an asssitant coach.Seriously?

To make this "clear" you need to show what they actually grossed -- the number of registrants and what they paid -- and come up with rent numbers for the two venues in two different cities, all the uniforms etc. they bought and all the staff related payments. With the other teams, you need to add travel and lodging costs for that staff as well.

Do you "clearly" have all these numbers?

not so fast
10-16-2009, 11:05 AM
I guess we are talking about 2 different things.

Please again, explain to me why the BIG, powerful. NBA developmental league is calling players, who have absolutely no chance of making a D-league roster, and inviting them to a tryout camp.

If the camp was free, then thats fine, this would cost the player at least $150.

If the D league was inviting players, lets say, who were the top players in the PBL, then that would be fine. But when they start looking for players who are just really bad players, then my atenna goes up for a scam.

I don't know their camp budget, but I can tell you this, I have ran camps for CBA, aba, pbl, ibl,usbl, and international teams. So I have some idea of cost of camps. And I also know that some of the cost you mentioned in your alleged cost scheme is not expenses at all.

bectond
10-16-2009, 11:16 AM
Dude this isn't rocket science, if it was free 30,000 people would try-out. The 150 dollar price tag is designed to discourage non-players from trying out.

Also some teams like to have a lot of local players on their team, the try-outs allow them to sign more local talent (they can only allocate 7 players) to their training camp. They bring in 10-20 guys from local colleges, along with the agent favors, coaches favorites and dudes the parent club ask them to invite. At most 10-20 off the radar guys also attend.

not so fast
10-16-2009, 11:49 AM
Well, you still have not answered why they are calling a non player and inviting him.
And if the 150 is to discourage non players as you phrase it, then why are they openly recruiting a non player?

Secondly, what you explained is even more disturbing, but at least you are honest. The camps are a scam and no one really has a chance. There is a pre-set amount of players, that in fact, they are not truly open free agent camps.

To be honest, they should really stop running them. They are giving a lot of false hope. But also, when players are traveling in for this scam, they have a lot of travel and hotel expenses, only to have no chance! The D-league has been, and always will be a political operation.

And I like the name dude. not so fast dude, my new handle. Thanks beyond!

bectond
10-16-2009, 12:13 PM
I did answer that question, they invite some people to the camps because of favors owed to a coach, agent or friend.

The try-out process is not a scam,D-League coaches are always looking for glue guys and shooters. Every team needs at least 1 player that hustles and is happy to be on the team and guys that can spread the floor.

not so fast
10-16-2009, 12:35 PM
Why not contact the pbl office, or the ibl office, and invite the top 20 players from each league to a camp?

I got to think everything you mentioned you are looking for you will find, and it would be easy.

I don't want to sound hostile to the d-league, but I wish they were run with a little more openness.

bdyer
10-17-2009, 03:15 PM
I guess we are talking about 2 different things.

Please again, explain to me why the BIG, powerful. NBA developmental league is calling players, who have absolutely no chance of making a D-league roster, and inviting them to a tryout camp.

If the camp was free, then thats fine, this would cost the player at least $150.And it is that player's choice whether he goes there, already knowing the odds of his being picked up by a D-League team. If someone was forcing him to pay, fine.

If the D league was inviting players, lets say, who were the top players in the PBL, then that would be fine. But when they start looking for players who are just really bad players, then my atenna goes up for a scam.Maybe those coaches and GMs are looking for something different than you. It is entirely possible that those people are looking for players who could conceivably fill in for practice and end of bench duty on very short notice during the inevitable roster churn that happens in a D-League season. You don't need a star for that, and perhaps your acquaintance fits that bill quite well.

I don't know their camp budget, but I can tell you this, I have ran camps for CBA, aba, pbl, ibl,usbl, and international teams. So I have some idea of cost of camps. And I also know that some of the cost you mentioned in your alleged cost scheme is not expenses at all.So if you don't know their camp budget, how can you "clearly" say what their profit would be?

And if profit is their goal, why would there be any restrictions on registrations or camp dates?

minorleagfan09
10-18-2009, 05:28 PM
It seems NBDL teams (at least some) hold a local tryout camp and a tryout camp in the city of each NBA affiliate. Based on D-League budgets (especially the teams that rent out 16k arenas) I can't imagine these tryouts are motivated much by revenue.

They bring some of these guys to camp and then cut them (or hang on to one or two of them for awhile). These guys toss down 150 bucks to try and get that on their resume. That's why no other league holds a candle to an NBA affiliated league. It really does matter and add to the resume to have NBDL Camp Invitee, Pre season cut, or 1 or 2 games in the league etc. on the resume. Looks great to a low level international team.

SignGuyDino
10-22-2009, 04:32 PM
Asheville's first NBDL camp had about 150 people. Fee was next to nothing and most of the players had no business on rec teams let alone try out for the D-League. Half the tryout was wasted until the wannabes were cut. It was for publicity. The next year the fee went way up and the tryouts were more intense.

Scouts miss players. The teams need some revenue (how many D-League teams make a profit, anyway?). It gets publicity. I'm thankful the D-League has ONE tryout per team instead of some questionable leagues (we're not naming names) who have multiple tryouts and then curiously disappear.

What would be a good idea is if each team did an idea I was developing for the 4BL: Sub-leagues in each D-League city of up to 4 teams, made of players who didn't make the D-League team but are local enough to play a serious league. Keeps players in shape for emergency call-ups, gets a little revenue, and always keeps the D-League players...um...motivated.

Juniper
11-05-2009, 01:16 PM
Free Agent camps in any league are a scam. They are there to make money for the coaches. Only once, I have seen a team that was made up of fee agents, and that was the Battle Creek team from the PBL. Seven out of the 12 players came from there free agent camp. One of there assistant coaches and I were talking when they played down here last year. He also said all of them lasted the season.

NSF, you are from the Chicago area, how does a guy like Anthony Kyle keep making that FT. Wayne roster? Your guy Rashi is has much more talent. Even that Springs guy that finished up the season with BC, can out play Kyle.

Former ABA'er
11-05-2009, 03:06 PM
The Bakersfield Jam have 5 invitees from their try-out camps coming to training camp. They will compete with a total of 16 players for 10 spots. To say that these try-out camps are a sham is ridiculous. A try-out camp is not suppose to guarantee a roster spot. Getting to training camp is the objective. Every team in the D League has players coming to training camp from their try-out camps. There are several players from try-out camps that have made D League All Star rosters.
If you want to look at a sham, look at the ABA try-out camps they conduct in April, May or June for a season that begins in Nov or Dec for a team that has a 10% or less chance to ever play a game. That is strictly about revenue generation and has nothing to do with giving anyone a chance to play professional basketball.

not so fast
11-09-2009, 01:31 PM
juniper, you kind of put me on the spot. I know the springs kid, rasshi johnson, and anthony kyle. They are talented. However, I would take rashi over both of the others, if I was forced to choose.

Someone who knows can correct me, but unless you go thru the d league venting process, you will not play in the d league, which makes it hard to understand why they even bother to have free agent camps.

If a player has a criminal background, that should not disqualify them from the d-league. That is hypicritical considering the NBA has no such standards.

If a player fails a drug test, of course then that player should not be allowed to play.

There has been very few players in minorleague basketball better than Ronnie fields in the past 10 years, but he has never played in the D league. Why is that?

Juniper
11-09-2009, 02:21 PM
Sorry NSF, I just like your input, cause you have been around the block once or twice. I am with you, Rashi is just so strong. Chicago had a kid named Sawyer, that played alot like Rashi. I understand the politics of the D-League enough to know I don't understand the politics. it is a real same, cause there are many talented players out there that are not getting a shot.

not so fast
11-09-2009, 03:56 PM
At the throwbacks/battle creek game last season, I was anxiously waiting the showdown with rashi and Amari Sawyer. Well it was a no contest. rashi destroyed Amari sawyers, and both are from chicago, so it was a lot at stake, on who is the top guard in chicago (who is not in the NBA).


The d league is really run very oddly, I mean I expect the aba to be insane cause the they are insane people running it.

I expect the ibl too be somewhat odd because there are odd people running it. But the NBA developmental league, should have enough resourses, to make itself a strong minorleague example. Just imagine if there was only one minorleague baseball league. It would be off the charts in how well it was run.

Finally, if the D league is what they claim to be, then how in the world is coaches like Chris Daleo, Rod baker, and Jarren Jackson not coaching in the D league? These are proven coaches if the D league truly wants credibility, it would hire these guys.

bdyer
11-09-2009, 06:35 PM
Finally, if the D league is what they claim to be, then how in the world is coaches like Chris Daleo, Rod baker, and Jarren Jackson not coaching in the D league? These are proven coaches if the D league truly wants credibility, it would hire these guys.Jaren Jackson was head coach of the Fort Wayne D-League team for one and a half seasons. His record last season was 19-30.

Ken, Steelheads fan
11-09-2009, 11:19 PM
Finally, if the D league is what they claim to be, then how in the world is coaches like Chris Daleo, Rod baker, and Jarren Jackson not coaching in the D league? These are proven coaches if the D league truly wants credibility, it would hire these guys.

Duane Ticknor (former Gary Steelheads coach) also head coached in the D-League. He's proven.

...oh, you forgot to mention him. 8)

Juniper
11-10-2009, 07:47 AM
There is a guy out there named Dale Osbourne that is an assistant in the D-League, that should be looking at a Head Coaching position. Don't let Jaren Jacksons record cloud visions, cause he can Coach too. Sare was in the top ten minor league coaches, along with Spoon should at least be assistants in that league. I think this is what we are talking about, politic's and not giving good people, that are qualifiled an opportunity.

not so fast
11-10-2009, 09:41 AM
Well lets see now, phil jackson coached the Bulls to a whopping 41 and 41 record when jordan retired, so jarren jackson record was 19- 30, So whats your point? Is phil jacson and average coach? How many rings does he have?

The mad ants have done a lousy job of inquiring players, and that is because of the D league mystery formula of allocated players. When Jarren coached in the CBA in 05, he did an outstanding job. not to mention he was a former NBA player.

So your point bdyer, like most of your points, are silly and counterproductive to the discussion.

bdyer
11-10-2009, 03:25 PM
Well lets see now, phil jackson coached the Bulls to a whopping 41 and 41 record when jordan retired, so jarren jackson record was 19- 30, So whats your point? Is phil jacson and average coach? How many rings does he have?

The mad ants have done a lousy job of inquiring players, and that is because of the D league mystery formula of allocated players. When Jarren coached in the CBA in 05, he did an outstanding job. not to mention he was a former NBA player.

So your point bdyer, like most of your points, are silly and counterproductive to the discussion.Actually, my point was Jackson coached for two seasons in the D-League and you were completely ignorant of that fact.

It seems that many of your arguments regarding the D-League come from a position of ignorance. I just wanted to help you be less ignorant since I know things like Jackson's coaching in the D-League for two seasons. I know that doesn't help your crusade against the D-League, but it is what it is.

bdyer
11-10-2009, 03:27 PM
There is a guy out there named Dale Osbourne that is an assistant in the D-League, that should be looking at a Head Coaching position. Don't let Jaren Jacksons record cloud visions, cause he can Coach too. Sare was in the top ten minor league coaches, along with Spoon should at least be assistants in that league. I think this is what we are talking about, politic's and not giving good people, that are qualifiled an opportunity.Osbourne was an interim head coach in Austin after Dennis Johnson died. Nice guy. Probably getting close to having another shot at a head coaching job.

not so fast
11-10-2009, 10:16 PM
bdyer, as a person who obviously have no ability to discuss without personal attacks, which speakes to your immaturity, I will attempt to educate you some more.

Not only did I know jarren jackson coached in fort wayne, I am friends with him. I talked on the phone with him about several players that were on the team that i know. And also about a potential player.

As far as my crusade against the d -league, you seem to act like commisioner stern or something. No league is above critique, and certainly not one that has a tremendous amount of questions as to how it selects players, coaches, determines where franchises are, what teams represents what franchises, etc.....

But since you have appointed yourself the mastermind of the d league, congratulations. But most peoplewho have been involved in basketball would agree, it has not come close to fufilling its so-called objective. And I would contend it has no intention of it. It aoppears that the NBA just made a mistake nearly 10 years ago when they decided to try and become the mecca of minorleague basketball, and the NBA management has way too much ego to admit their faults.

But they have enablers like you who want to pasify them. So march on.

By the way, I know several of the D league coaches and they are all good people and friends of mind. But I have a job to do, and that is too clean up minorleague basketball where ever it is, (Superman) ibl, pbl, cba, d-league, (the aba is beyond cleaning up), it needs lethal injection!

bdyer
11-10-2009, 10:34 PM
bdyer, as a person who obviously have no ability to discuss without personal attacks, which speakes to your immaturity, I will attempt to educate you some more.

Not only did I know jarren jackson coached in fort wayne, I am friends with him. I talked on the phone with him about several players that were on the team that i know. And also about a potential player.So why did you act like he had never had a opportunity to coach in the D-League?

As far as my crusade against the d -league, you seem to act like commisioner stern or something. No league is above critique, and certainly not one that has a tremendous amount of questions as to how it selects players, coaches, determines where franchises are, what teams represents what franchises, etc.....I never said it was above critique. I have made my own.

But since you have appointed yourself the mastermind of the d league, congratulations. But most peoplewho have been involved in basketball would agree, it has not come close to fufilling its so-called objective. And I would contend it has no intention of it. It aoppears that the NBA just made a mistake nearly 10 years ago when they decided to try and become the mecca of minorleague basketball, and the NBA management has way too much ego to admit their faults.I contend it failed miserably at first, and has gotten better. You would never seem to acknowledge any progress that has ever been made in that respect, which is fine -- but a little myopic in my opinion. Regardless, no other league has come close to it since Thomas bought the CBA in terms of actually following through with playing games and making it through seasons. It's sad that no other league can boast even this level of fundamental competence.

But they have enablers like you who want to pasify them. So march on. I do not want to pacify them. I would simply prefer the critiques be legitimate. Pretty much all yours seem to revolve around friends or acquaintances not being employed by the league when you think they should.

By the way, I know several of the D league coaches and they are all good people and friends of mind. But I have a job to do, and that is too clean up minorleague basketball where ever it is, (Superman) ibl, pbl, cba, d-league, (the aba is beyond cleaning up), it needs lethal injection!So you're going to do it via message board? OK.

not so fast
11-10-2009, 11:45 PM
I dont know, if the NBA claims to be the best league in the world, then it would stand too reason that the feeder league to it, would be the 2nd best league. But how can that be when they are not employing the the top coaches available and all the top players available. And they should be working with the PBL to assure that the PBL assist them with finding of players and developing of players.

To their credit they did hire PBL coaches, but they should be forming some kind of working alliance with the PBL.

Why have they had such a difficult time keeping franchises stable? Why is there so little interest?

I have heard from good sources that several organizations are unhappy with the league. They could use a summit of basketball minds to help them as well. Their wizard of oz approach to running a league will soon cost them greatly.

by the way, I did not act as if jackson did not coach before, I was making a point to how about him coaching another team? As I recall, many white coaches in the NBA lose and get rehired all the time(a.k.a. scott skiles)

bdyer
11-11-2009, 06:10 AM
I dont know, if the NBA claims to be the best league in the world, then it would stand too reason that the feeder league to it, would be the 2nd best league. But how can that be when they are not employing the the top coaches available and all the top players available.the second best league in the world is in Europe because they pay much, much more. The main attraction of the D-League is that it is the most direct route to the NBA without all the obstacles of buyouts and the like that plague the transition from other leagues. It is worth something, but I have said before (I'm not sure if it was here under this screen name) that the D-League would probably benefit greatly from increasing player salaries.

And they should be working with the PBL to assure that the PBL assist them with finding of players and developing of players.

To their credit they did hire PBL coaches, but they should be forming some kind of working alliance with the PBL.I've already seen PBL players "called up" to the D-League in Austin and other cities. That could certainly continue, but the PBL needs to take care of itself before it should it expect any more attention from the NBA/D-League.

Why have they had such a difficult time keeping franchises stable? Why is there so little interest?Why has the PBL had a hard time? Minor league basketball is a hard sell anywhere. As I said, the D-League started out with a horrible model and every franchise failed or moved. The recent track record is much better. There is decent attendance in the newer cities and the operational models with greater involvement from NBA teams seem to be adding to both stability and interest (Looks like it's happening more in the Rio Grande Valley than Austin, but there are vast differences in the markets).

I have heard from good sources that several organizations are unhappy with the league. They could use a summit of basketball minds to help them as well. Their wizard of oz approach to running a league will soon cost them greatly.Could you be more specific?

by the way, I did not act as if jackson did not coach before, I was making a point to how about him coaching another team? As I recall, many white coaches in the NBA lose and get rehired all the time(a.k.a. scott skiles)If you want to start a discussion about race and its influence on hiring practices, that would probably be for another thread -- but I'll just say that Joey Meyer had to wait a year before getting another head coaching gig. The fact there are multiple sources and rationales for hiring coaches in the D-League means that it's difficult to predict or expect from where the next one should come.

not so fast
11-11-2009, 10:36 AM
Let me make sure I follow you, then what you are saying is the d league does not have the next best talent, in fact better, more talented players can lie elsewhere, and if that is what you are saying, then why even have a d-league?

Just so a less talented player than the one in europe can get a 10 day contract? It really seems a little wierd.

I would agree with you about the money, they need to start paying more. but I think more competetitive teams, created by rival teams in a region would do wonders.

For instance, they would attract alot of fans if they created a chicago area pod of teams. They could do it on the cheap. A team in Gary, south bend, Kankakee, Elgin, rockford, grand rapids mi., muskegan mi., and even milwaukee. All the teams are no more than a bus ride away, this would creat great rivalrys. Fans would know many of the players/and coaches.

This would be easy to monitor. That is so much better than being spread all over the country. Theres enough venues in these areas so , that would not be an issue.

Now instead of debating me, will you contact the D league and get started on this? I am ready to see the games. Plus I can't afford Bulls games or Bucks games (however, I do get free tickets every now an then)

Ken, Steelheads fan
11-11-2009, 02:32 PM
I doubt the D-League would work in Gary or Rockford. The interest isn't there. Besides, Rockford is a hockey town now and Gary HAS the potential to be a hockey town.

runninref
11-11-2009, 02:54 PM
Not so fast ... do you mean to say that the NBA comps tickets on occasion? Why has Ken not picked up on this?:D

Ken, Steelheads fan
11-11-2009, 03:38 PM
Those free tickets not so fast was talking about most likely had a sponsor or company attached to them. There's a big difference between comps and distributing tickets that have already been paid for.

bdyer
11-11-2009, 04:12 PM
Let me make sure I follow you, then what you are saying is the d league does not have the next best talent, in fact better, more talented players can lie elsewhere, and if that is what you are saying, then why even have a d-league?Why even have a PBL? They will never have the money European clubs do, so why bother with minor league basketball of any kind here?

Just so a less talented player than the one in europe can get a 10 day contract? It really seems a little wierd.No, it doesn't. The D-League's advantages for players is that it is in the US and NBA scouts and execs attend almost every game. Hell, scouts from all over the world go to the showcase, which leads to better paying gigs for players and coaches even if they never make the NBA.

I would agree with you about the money, they need to start paying more. but I think more competetitive teams, created by rival teams in a region would do wonders.There are already rivalries like that in the D-League. Most of them are in the sticks though, so people in large markets such as yourself might not get to see them. Austin and RGV have a nice one with Viper fans coming up for every game, and I think the addition of the Frisco franchise could add to that.

For instance, they would attract alot of fans if they created a chicago area pod of teams. They could do it on the cheap. A team in Gary, south bend, Kankakee, Elgin, rockford, grand rapids mi., muskegan mi., and even milwaukee. All the teams are no more than a bus ride away, this would creat great rivalrys. Fans would know many of the players/and coaches.

This would be easy to monitor. That is so much better than being spread all over the country. Theres enough venues in these areas so , that would not be an issue.D-League teams in major league markets have been proven to be disastrous without direct NBA team involvement. I don't know why you would want another Anaheim Arsenal. I don't. They also started out in a small geographic footprint in the southeast, which turned out to be an easily monitored disaster.

Now instead of debating me, will you contact the D league and get started on this? I am ready to see the games. Plus I can't afford Bulls games or Bucks games (however, I do get free tickets every now an then)If an owner can get the Bulls and Bucks to go along with it, there could be teams in the area, but it could be that they are happy with the affiliations they have.

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