USBL Facts

[barkley34]

The USBL is a franchisor with a 100% failure rate. EVERY franchisee that has bought into the league has failed. If this was to happen for Burger King, McDonalds, etc...they would be sued. NO TEAM.....NO TEAM has ever succeeded. EVER. a 100% failure rate. What gives?

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Good point.

What would you consider to be a successful franchise? The USBL is 20 years old. How long should a team have been active to be a success? All 20 years? 10 years?

I think that it has been obvious that minor league basketball has the lowest rate of sustained sucess; that the league itself has lasted 20 years is an accomplishment - even with the 100% turnover of franchises.

[oldfatguy]

Not saying there's many comparisons between leagues... just saying, I don't think that many of the original NFL teams are in the cities in which they started. Or MLB... NBA... etc. Any minor basketball league making it 20 years at all is pretty amazing.

[TEN]

Just for the record...

Of the eight teams currently in the USBL...

1 has been in the league for 8 years (Cagerz)
2 have been in the league for 7 years (Valley Dawgs, Kings)
2 have been in the league for 6 years (Storm, Legend)
1 has been in the league for 3 years (Wildfire)
2 are first year franchises (Flyers, Cranes)

Half of the franchises have been around longer than...
The new ABA (in whatever form it has been in)
The new CBA (league folded in 2001 and came back)
The NBDL
Any other minor league that you want to throw out there.

Not to mention that the league has played an entire schedule during those years and crowned a champion each year. Had games on NBA-TV (last year's tournament).

Had 150 players go to the NBA, including 10-15 over the past four or five years.

Hey, the USBL has it's problems...but...probably the most important thing...when you sell a season ticket package for 15 games...the fans get 15 games.

[skippy]

While the USBL has had it's problems, it has had it's share of success.

The names involved in the USBL dwarf almost every other league with the exception of the CBA, and the USBL model of smaller cities appears to be working well.

If I were to buy into any of the leagues, it would be this one.


And TEN, what are you doing these days? Are you still involved in basketball?

[SK Fan]

Just for the record... Of the eight teams currently in the USBL... 1 has been in the league for 8 years (Cagerz) 2 have been in the league for 7 years (Valley Dawgs, Kings) 2 have been in the league for 6 years (Storm, Legend) 1 has been in the league for 3 years (Wildfire) 2 are first year franchises (Flyers, Cranes) Half of the franchises have been around longer than... The new ABA (in whatever form it has been in) The new CBA (league folded in 2001 and came back) The NBDL Any other minor league that you want to throw out there. Not to mention that the league has played an entire schedule during those years and crowned a champion each year. Had games on NBA-TV (last year's tournament). Had 150 players go to the NBA, including 10-15 over the past four or five years. Hey, the USBL has it's problems...but...probably the most important thing...when you sell a season ticket package for 15 games...the fans get 15 games.


Of those eight teams how many are being run by the league?

Four teams are being run by the league.

When you sell a fifteen game schedule in Cedar Rapids, you only got to see 14 1/2 games.

The USBL officials have made inaccurate statements about St. Louis Coach Irons being suspended for the season, (turned out to be two games) that a settlement between St.Louis and Cedar Rapids was agreed to, (never was a financial settlement) and that Cedar Rapids is returning for the 2006 season. (it is not)

Swamp land would be a better investment.

[Sam Hill]

The St.Louis thing was bad. That was horribly handled from start to finish.

That being said, the USBL has done a nice job overall. TEN laid out the specs quite well.

[TEN]

Skippy...Still in basketball....working with the Oklahoma Storm...part-time...got a full-time gig doing something that pays regularly but still keeping my hand in it.

Saw an e-mail from Barry Smith to the league this week...Indicates that Cedar Rapids probably will come back in next year...We do need some new owners to step up and join the league...but it is also up to us to give them a reason to do it!

It's still fun basketball to watch!

[barkley34]

TEN did spell out a good response, however, over the last 20 years there have been 200+ teams to come through the league, give or take 3 or 4 and only 8 have "survived". That is 192 failures out of 200.........ANY Franchisor would sitting in front of the Attorney Generals Office is this occured. And Sam Hill............put a sock in it, PLEASE for Godsakes, you spil nothing but drivel.

[Sam Hill]

Yawn.

Still waiting for you to tell me what exactly I'm getting wrong.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Barkley-
How did you count 200 different franchises in the USBL's history? By my rough estimate, there have been about 80.

Yes, the turnover is huge, but what is your definition of a successful franchise/league? All of the basketball leagues that have started up since the inception of the USBL have not combined for 20 seasons in existence.

[rams80]

That is 192 failures out of 200

I believe the ABA would call that "a good year"

[Sam Hill]

I count 70, but you all know how dumb I am:


Adirondack Wildcats 2002 - 2004
Atlanta Eagles [Atlanta, GA] 1991 - 1993
Atlanta Trojans [Suwanee, GA] 1994 - 1999
Atlantic City Seagulls [Atlantic City, NJ] 1996 - 2001
Brevard Blue Ducks [FL] 2002 - 2004
Brooklyn Kings [Brooklyn, NY] 1999 - 2005*
Camden Power [Camden, NJ] 1998
Carolina Cardinals [Winston-Salem, NC] 1996
Cedar Rapids River Raiders [Cedar Rapids, IA] 2004
Columbus Cagerz [Worthington, OH] 1998
Connecticut Colonials [New Haven, CT] 1985
Connecticut Skyhawks [Milford, CT] 1993 - 1999
Daytona Beach Hooters [Daytona Beach, FL] 1993
Dodge City Legend [Dodge City, KS] 2000 - 2005*
Empire State Stallions [Glen Falls, NY] 1991
Florence Flyers 2004
Florida Sea Dragons [Sarasota-Bradenton, FL] 2000 - 2002
Florida Sharks [Bradenton, FL] 1991, 1996 - 1997
Gold Coast Stingrays [West Palm Beach, FL] 1986
Gulf Coast Sundogs 1999 - 2000
Jackson Jackals [Jackson, TN] 1995
Jacksonville Barracudas [Jacksonville, FL] 1996 - 1998
Jacksonville Hooters [Jacksonville, FL] 1988, 1990 - 1992, 1994
Jacksonville Shooters [Jacksonville, FL] 1995
Jersey Jammers [Wayne, NJ] 1986 - 1987
Jersey Shore Bucs 1988
Jersey Turnpikes [Hoboken, NJ] 1995
Kansas Cagerz [Salina, KS] 1999 - 2005*
Lakeland Blue Bucks [Lakeland, FL] 2001
Long Island Knights [Long Island, NY] 1985, 1987 - 1988
Long Island Surf [Long Island, NY] 1991 - 2001
Maryland Mustangs [Marlboro, MD] 2001
Memphis Fire [Memphis, TN] 1994 - 1995
Miami Tropics [Miami, FL] 1987 - 1988, 1991 - 1995
Mississippi Coast Gamblers [Gulfport, MS] 1994
Nebraska Cranes [Kearney, NE] 2005*
New Hampshire Thunder Loons [Manchester, NH] 1996 - 2000
New Haven Skyhawks [New Haven, CT] 1988, 1990 - 1992
New Jersey Flyers [Hackensack, NJ] 2005*
New Jersey Jammers [Lakewood, NJ] 1985, 1992
Jersey Shorecats [Asbury Park, NJ] 1998 - 2000
New York Whitecaps 1990
Oklahoma Storm [Enid, OK] 2000 - 2005*
Palm Beach Stingrays [Palm Beach, FL] 1988, 1990, 1992 - 1994
Pennsylvania Valleydawgs [Easton, PA] 1999 - 2005*
Philadelphia Aces [Philadelphia, PA] 1987 - 1988, 1990
Philadelphia Power [Philadelphia, PA] 1997
Philadelphia Spirit [Philadelphia, PA] 1991 - 1992
Portland Mountain Cats [Portland, ME] 1996
Portland Wave [Portland, ME] 1997
Raleigh Cougars [Raleigh, NC] 1997 - 1999
Rhode Island Gulls [Warwick, RI] 1985, 1987
Springfield Fame [Springfield, MA] 1985 - 1986
Staten Island Stallions [Staten Island, NY] 1986 - 1987
St.Joseph Express [St.Joseph, MO] 2002
St.Louis SkyHawks [St.Louis, MO] 2002, 2004
Suncoast Sunblasters [Clearwater, FL] 1991
Tampa Bay Flash [Tampa, FL] 1986
Tampa Bay Stars [Tampa, FL] 1987
Tampa Bay Sunblasters [Tampa, FL] 1992
Tampa Bay Windjammers [Tampa, FL] 1996 - 1999
Texas Rim Rockers [Fort Worth, TX] 2003
Treasure Coast Tropics [Port St. Lucie, FL] 1996
Washington Congressionals [Washington, DC] 1998 - 2000
West Palm Beach Stingrays [West Palm Beach, FL] 1987
Westchester Golden Apples [Westchester, NY] 1985 - 1986
Westchester Stallions [Westchester, NY 1993 - 1994
Westchester Kings [Westchester, NY] 1997
Westchester Wildfire [Pleasantville, NY] 2003 - 2005*
Wildwood Aces [Wildwood, NJ] 1985 - 1986

*Existing teams

It's actually fewer franchises than that as some moved and/or changed their names. In any case, the survival percentage isn't great, but that's the nature of the beast in minor-league pro sports. And minor-league basketball has had perhaps the most checkered past of any of the traditional sports that have been played at a non-major level for any length of time.

[Shootmaster_44]

Not saying there's many comparisons between leagues... just saying, I don't think that many of the original NFL teams are in the cities in which they started. Or MLB... NBA... etc. Any minor basketball league making it 20 years at all is pretty amazing.

Is there any original NFL teams left? The only league which has 2 of 4 original teams is the NHL.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Not saying there's many comparisons between leagues... just saying, I don't think that many of the original NFL teams are in the cities in which they started. Or MLB... NBA... etc. Any minor basketball league making it 20 years at all is pretty amazing. Is there any original NFL teams left? The only league which has 2 of 4 original teams is the NHL.

That depends on how we define original teams....
Of the charter members of the NFL, only the Decatur Staleys (now Chicago Bears) and Chicago Cardinals (now in Arizona) remain. I believe that the team with the longest unchanged membership (same city/name) is Green Bay, who joined in 1921.

As for the NHL, the Canadiens are the only charter team in the league (since 1917). The Maple Leafs joined in 1921.

[Shootmaster_44]

[quote="ABARedWhiteBlueAs for the NHL, the Canadiens are the only charter team in the league (since 1917). The Maple Leafs joined in 1921.[/quote]

No the Toronto St. Pats are the same franchise as the Leafs. They just changed their name in '21. Now to bring this topic back to a somewhat original point, which minor league of any sport is the most stable? As in which league has the most charter teams left?

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

[quote="ABARedWhiteBlueAs for the NHL, the Canadiens are the only charter team in the league (since 1917). The Maple Leafs joined in 1921. No the Toronto St. Pats are the same franchise as the Leafs. They just changed their name in '21. Now to bring this topic back to a somewhat original point, which minor league of any sport is the most stable? As in which league has the most charter teams left?[/quote]

Shootmaster - You are right. I should have clarified that there was one charter team still with the same name in Montreal.

For stability, I would have to say minor-league baseball is far and away tops on the list.

As for most charter teams left, a lot of leagues have merged, so it might be tough to follow. Also, teams moving to different levels is tough to track as well...

[Shootmaster_44]

Then it begs the question, what is baseball doing that the owners of the other sports, especially minor league basketball, haven't caught on to?

I guess the first thing I can think of is the extremely elaborate affiliation structure MLB has conducted through the National Association. Why has the NBA not caught on to this? They need solid affiliations with teams in a league be it the NBDL or some other league. Why not expand the NBA draft to the size it used to be and then it would allow many of the better college players to become property of an NBA club. This makes sense does it not? If I were the GM of an NBA team, I'd consider drafting a player from Division II, if I knew he could play a few years in the minors and hone his skills and then become the player that could play a role in the show. If the NBA won't setup an structure, why don't the existing leagues band together. Not necessarily merge, but create a National Association structure, to handle merchandise and marketing of the game itself. This seems to have worked in baseball and soccer, why not basketball?

But simply having affiliates does not make a team successful, there must be other things. There should be some competent owner in minor league baseball that can borrow ideas from baseball. You know something is going right when the St. Paul Saints can outdraw the Minnesota Twins. (Yes I know that was a few years back but still.)

If Joe Newmann or any of the other heads of leagues want to increase the viability of these leagues, I'd say bring in minor league baseball owners. They already know the general market and have loads of ideas to bring in the fans, so why not reach out to them?

On an more unrelated note, I have realized that the CFL has the 6 of 8 of its charter franchises left. If you begin counting from '54 when the CFL officially came into being. The only two teams that don't still exist are the Ottawa Rough Riders and Montreal Alouettes. Seems to me BC came in after the league merged the East and West Rugby Football Unions.

[skippy]

Baseball success doesn't translate into basketball success at all.

Several Triple-A owners/GMs and at least one current league president either owned or operated minor league basketball teams at one point each with mixed or poor results.

I really believe the USBL/CBA formula is the correct one with smaller markets/less competition. I think the NBDL is continuing to make the same mistakes of the past by going into larger markets, but believing in their arrogance that it will be different because "we are the NBA".

As long as their is a viable NCAA, minor league basketball will never be taken with much more than a grain of salt, which is a shame because it's a great game.

[SK Fan]

The St.Louis thing was bad. That was horribly handled from start to finish.

That being said, the USBL has done a nice job overall. TEN laid out the specs quite well.

While Tom laid out the facts nicely, certain facts were left out. Four of the eight teams that are playing this year are being financed by the league. Even the team he works for is being financed by the league. Of the other four teams the Cagerz and the Cranes are not on solid ground financially. With the present attendance the Cranes will disappear in a year or two.

Most everyone will admit that the talent level this year is no where near last years.

[Tha Man*]

Shootmaster_44

Its simple why there there han't been a conglomerate between the leagues. Called ownership and owners. They are think they are in the best league and would hate to have to comprimise any of their rules to put everyone else on a fair playing field. (CBA's quater points, ABA defense rule.. not sure of all the different rules between the leagues).

[Pounder]

It's amazing what a little anti-trust exemption does for a sport.

Baseball are the pod people, which makes the marketing somewhat easy. :D

Basketball folk, hockey folk, soccer folk, indoor football folk, et cetera ad nauseum have to actually earn their pay. Few are really that good at it.

I'm afraid I'm getting old and cynical to the point where someone really needs to take a crowbar to me. I'm really to the point where I think indoor football is a sham, minor basketball isn't organized enough to be a sham, and minor pro hockey isn't far ahead of those positions.