Razor Sharks and Comped Tickets

[CHris902]

From this article: (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20090828/SPORTS02/908280331/1007/SPORTS/Rochester+Amerks+look+to+restore+ticket+value)

Meanwhile, the independently owned RazorSharks basketball team, another arena tenant, printed nine times as many free tickets as it sold, records show — despite a 14 percent increase in paid ticket sales.

Yikes! So I am not great at math, but if we assume that the Razorsharks averaged 5,000 fans per game in the arena and that 50% of the comped tickets that were printed were actually used then it means that on average they only actually sold 910 tickets. (in other words, only 18% of the people in the arena paid for tickets)

Unlike K1 Sports, I don't feel like comping tickets is bad in and of its self, and I expect Two for One days, sponsor tickets, etc. to be floating around as well as giving tickets away to charity organizations and the like, but 82% of your attendance being free seems to be a borderline disaster.

Anyone have any numbers on where other teams in the league are in regards to comped tickets? I haven't been able to confirm it, but I've heard the number in Halifax being pegged around 400 comped tickets being printed (and about 200-300 used) per Rainmen game, excluding 2 for 1 deals and season tickets explicitly part of sponsorship packages. So the Rainmen are comping about 10-15% of the actual attendance at their games if these numbers are to be believed.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

From this article: (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20090828/SPORTS02/908280331/1007/SPORTS/Rochester+Amerks+look+to+restore+ticket+value)



Yikes! So I am not great at math, but if we assume that the Razorsharks averaged 5,000 fans per game in the arena and that 50% of the comped tickets that were printed were actually used then it means that on average they only actually sold 910 tickets. (in other words, only 18% of the people in the arena paid for tickets)

Unlike K1 Sports, I don't feel like comping tickets is bad in and of its self, and I expect Two for One days, sponsor tickets, etc. to be floating around as well as giving tickets away to charity organizations and the like, but 82% of your attendance being free seems to be a borderline disaster.

Anyone have any numbers on where other teams in the league are in regards to comped tickets? I haven't been able to confirm it, but I've heard the number in Halifax being pegged around 400 comped tickets being printed (and about 200-300 used) per Rainmen game, excluding 2 for 1 deals and season tickets explicitly part of sponsorship packages. So the Rainmen are comping about 10-15% of the actual attendance at their games if these numbers are to be believed.

Chris,
Geez! Please stop the K1 Sports crap. I've said that several times. It's disrespectful...but I guess some people just insist. Sigh.

Of course, the Razorsharks are giving away a ton of comps. How do you think they got fans to show-up to a championship game that should have occurred in Battle Creek??? Many of the teams, like Wilmington, were comping beyond what they should have to insure they looked good for the cameras. Official or unofficial PBL policy. Policy all the same. This league is about flash and little about substance. If current and not so current moves don't point that out, then certain people are never going to figure it out.

BTW, if you heard 400 comped tickets in Halifax then you can believe the amounts are more like 800. Before you ask me for my evidence, no I'm not privy to the Rainmen's books. However, I DO understand how and why numbers are fudged. There's a reason why I said awhile back that Halifax is in worse shape and Wilmington is in better shape. There's also a reason why a team that wants the D-League wants to subsidize PBL teams instead. Money or the lack thereof.

[LightningMan]

Many of the teams, like Wilmington, were comping beyond what they should have to insure they looked good for the cameras.
You don't know this. It is pure conjecture based on a conversation I had with a third party, neither of which worked for the Sea Dawgs.

[zeke41]

Man, according to you, Ken...none of these teams have any money. What do you think, they just appeared in the middle of the air? Sure, some franchises (especially ABA) are financially challenged, but teams like Rochester and Halifax? And Wilmington? Now you want to call them broke? Give me a break...I can't listen to anything that you say anymore, and that's your fault...you make less sense by the letter typed.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Man, according to you, Ken...none of these teams have any money. What do you think, they just appeared in the middle of the air? Sure, some franchises (especially ABA) are financially challenged, but teams like Rochester and Halifax? And Wilmington? Now you want to call them broke? Give me a break...I can't listen to anything that you say anymore, and that's your fault...you make less sense by the letter typed.

Ironically, I stopped reading YOUR posts awhile back because they're too darned long. I decided to give you a read this time because you kept it short and I saw my name. You know? I don't think you read my post THIS time. What are you talking about???

You don't know this. It is pure conjecture based on a conversation I had with a third party, neither of which worked for the Sea Dawgs.

...and what are YOU talking about??? I'm talking about paying fans being comped on the way out the door. The same thing I'm always talking about. I don't know about any conversation with a third party. That's why I don't like the comparisons to A1sports. I'm not into listening-in. I'm into simple logic and common sense. DO you have something to share on Wilmington? Spill it.

[psbf]

Typical Ken, he has an answer for everyone and he pretends to know everything about every team.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Typical Ken, he has an answer for everyone and he pretends to know everything about every team.

I don't have any inside information, so I don't pretend to know everything about every team as you stated. I DO have common sense though. When people stop waving their PBL big foam fan finger, then THEIR common sense also rises to the surface. Things become easy to figure out. Take Patrick Dempsey's PBL/doctor logo on his racing suit, for example. Common sense tells me that the doctor/PBL thingy logo looks like a 7th grader drew it to pass time in detention. Common sense also tells me that Patrick Dempsey doesn't want anything to do with that logo. He folds his arms everytime he sees a camera:
http://www.greysanatomynews.com/files/2009/06/57108ep-dempsey-b-gr-02.jpg
http://www.greysanatomynews.com/files/2009/06/57108ep-dempsey-b-gr-03.jpg
http://www.greysanatomynews.com/files/2009/06/57108ep-dempsey-b-gr-07.jpg


http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=14892&page=2

Of course, those taking a big gulp of PBL Kool-Aid think that logo is professional and Patrick Dempsey simply enjoys standing around with his hands folded all the time.

[LightningMan]

...and what are YOU talking about??? I'm talking about paying fans being comped on the way out the door.
No, you weren't.

Many of the teams, like Wilmington, were comping beyond what they should have to insure they looked good for the cameras.

This has nothing to do with the freebies for one playoff game. This clearly implies that Wilmington was stacking the house for the regular season cameras.

I don't know about any conversation with a third party.

As one of the guys I was sitting by and I discussed yesterday, there were a lot of people who were comped seats for one game or another or the entire season.


That's why I don't like the comparisons to A1sports.
Yeah, he occasionally has factual information. Have a good day, K1.

[misenern]

BTW, if you heard 400 comped tickets in Halifax then you can believe the amounts are more like 800. Before you ask me for my evidence, no I'm not privy to the Rainmen's books. However, I DO understand how and why numbers are fudged. There's a reason why I said awhile back that Halifax is in worse shape and Wilmington is in better shape. There's also a reason why a team that wants the D-League wants to subsidize PBL teams instead. Money or the lack thereof.

Well Ken, here is a reason that some might call you K1, baseless exaggerations. You admit to not knowing much about the Rainmen. You don’t have secondhand knowledge about the team, you don’t have firsthand knowledge about the team. Then you make a ridiculous claim with absolutely nothing to back it up. Trust me, Chirs didn't get this info from the local paper and he didn't get it from Joe Blow. If he heard 400, it's closer to 400, even if he can't confirm it 100%. To even assume that you know the "real" number based on your "instinct", or whatever you want to call it, is fairly ignorant. And I have heard it said first hand (certainly not in glowing terms either) that Levingston is generally unwilling to comp any tickets.

But anyway, this thread should be about the Razorsharks, not Ken. I know Rochester draws crowds but I always found two things strange:

1. Although there is one poster from Rochester who posts on these boards, I always found there to be a surprising lack of an online fanbase for a team with such good attendance numbers.

2. The second is my perceived discrepancies between their announced and actual attendance. I watched a few Rochester games on atsportstv and even voiced in the chat feature that the arena looked like it was not filled near as much as the actual attendance numbers suggested. I was always told that the arena is so big that the crowds look smaller. Well, the Halifax Metro Centre is just as big capacity wise and crowds of 4,000 looked much different than they did in Rochester. Maybe bdaly from Rochester can clear this up, seeing as he knows the arena firsthand.

The article could be way off, and most teams couldn’t get the numbers the ‘Sharks get even if they gave away all their tickets. However, these things always seemed strange to me along with a couple of crazy ticket give-aways they had last year (like donate one item of food to the food bank and get free tickets.) Hopefully someone who knows that they are talking about can clear it up. But as it stands now, something seems fishy.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

This has nothing to do with the freebies for one playoff game. This clearly implies that Wilmington was stacking the house for the regular season cameras.


...and stacking the house for the playoff cameras as well.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

http://static.greysanatomyinsider.com/images/gallery/patrick-waving_362x483.jpg

http://woodenspears.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/patrick-dempsey-425x294.jpg

http://www.accidentalsexiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/57173EW_DEMPSEY_B_GR_01.jpg

I don't care either way; just having some fun on a rainy Saturday...
:D

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Yeah, he occasionally has factual information. Have a good day, K1.

Interesting. I challenge you to find where I ever got it wrong in my almost 1600 posts. I'm not talking about nitpicking. I'm talking about actually getting it wrong. It's difficult to get common sense wrong. BTW, other posters who refuse to suppress their common sense seem to get it right as well. I'm not unique.

...and don't hold the fat dork Ken post against me. That doesn't count. 8)

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

http://static.greysanatomyinsider.com/images/gallery/patrick-waving_362x483.jpg

http://woodenspears.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/patrick-dempsey-425x294.jpg

http://www.accidentalsexiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/57173EW_DEMPSEY_B_GR_01.jpg

I don't care either way; just having some fun on a rainy Saturday...
:D

...and did you get a pic of the 7th grader? The kid drew a great ninja.

[psbf]

Common sense?? This is not Judge Judy, Ken, this is a thread in OSC where facts apply!

[LightningMan]

Interesting. I challenge you to find where I ever got it wrong in my almost 1600 posts.
Patrick Dempsey's folded arms. This thread. I win.

Let's end the K1 show and get back on topic, shall we?

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Patrick Dempsey's folded arms. This thread. I win.

Let's end the K1 show and get back on topic, shall we?

Didn't I just say, no nitpicking??? Didn't I? All organized auto races begin with drivers on parade and accompanying photo shoot. That's not assumed??? Do you want me to change my other post to, Dempsey folds his arms every chance he gets when he sees a stray photographer? Geez!

psbf,
You always make it too easy for me. This thread is about opinions just like many other forum threads. I doubt the factual amount of comped tickets will ever be known in Rochester or any other PBL town. It's all speculative.

Judge Judy?!? Double Geez!

[not so fast]

Ken, i must admit, in all these years, I have never seen you take after a league so hard as you have done the PBL. I am not sure why. In fact, I can tell you that jewel harris jr. was very much interested in joining the PBL at one time. Now that would have been interesting if the steelheads joined the PBL. I am not sure what your take would be then.

And for all your watchdog posts of the PBL, I can tell you, when Gary joined the usbl, that league was a joke by then, and was not run no better than the PBL is now. In addition, even though I know you are in denial about the ibl, deep down you know when the steelheads were apart of that league, it was a joke. From the crazy all star /non all star game, to the non/playoff format, to the pre season/ real season games or tournament, or whatever they called it.

I could go on and on of all the problems of those other leagues, and yet you did not complain to much, if at all. And you and I go way back on these boards, and you and I have a long history.

But I am baffled by your constant attacks of the pbl. These people are not the aba, they are trying to run a league, and be successful, and it is not easy in these times. They have never claimed to have all the knowledge or answers, but they are trying.

If you paid as half as much attention to the steelheads and their ownership, maybe they would still be playing now.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

The Steelheads were interested in ALL leagues after the fall of the USBL, including the Apex/Trinity CBA AND the PBL. There was nothing special about the PBL. Personally, I think fall/winter is dead for minor league basketball in Northwest Indiana. Fridays were always dead for the Steelheads. Fridays are high school basketball nights. Indiana high school basketball nights. Saturdays were pretty good, but the Steelheads comped tickets like crazy to draw fans from the high schools. Eventually, too many comps were in circulation and too many people refused to pay for tickets. I'm talking people driving Cadillac CTS's and fur coats. Spring/Summer is the only way to go. I wouldn't mind if the Steelheads took an additional year to re-educate fans on buying tickets.

Why do I comment so much on the PBL? It's because I don't care for fakeness in our society. I don't care for fake boobs, fake buttocks (Kim Kardashian), fake teams, and fake leagues. The other leagues you mentioned KNOW what they're about for better or worse. This league doesn't seem to have a clue as to WHAT they want to be or do. Besides, the PBL is the hot topic.

[psbf]

Ken, you can only speak for your team, the Gary Steelheads. You can't speak for any other team in any other league because you don't know about them. It's only guess work. Don't assume to know anything. Other teams may do things differently than the Steelheads did and other fans are different just like other leagues are different from the PBL. I find it interesting the way you take so much for granted(which I find sad).

[sonnie20]

How come when someone says anything against this league everyone piles on. Hey preeths why don't you censor some of these idiots? I know why ,this message board is a bunch of crap some folks can say anything and bash anyone but others can't. Your too bias to be the adminstrator!!!! And the Razorsharks gave out free tickets until 3Pm for the championship what a farce.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

How come when someone says anything against this league everyone piles on. Hey preeths why don't you censor some of these idiots? I know why ,this message board is a bunch of crap some folks can say anything and bash anyone but others can't. Your too bias to be the adminstrator!!!! And the Razorsharks gave out free tickets until 3Pm for the championship what a farce.

You had to drag out a 3-week old thread to say this?

And calling people idiots and starting a flame war with the site admin is NOT the best way to get your point across...

[bectond]

Everybody in sports comps tickets, I don't see what the big deal is.

I'm only posting because I want to say, "who's real, who's fake? That's the type of people I hate."

Also that moniker - K1sports is funny as hell

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Everybody in sports comps tickets, I don't see what the big deal is.

I'm only posting because I want to say, "who's real, who's fake? That's the type of people I hate."

Also that moniker - K1sports is funny as hell

I don't think the moniker is funny...but what can I do?!? Some people insist on being ignorant. Not you of course. 8)

Everyone in sports comps tickets??? We're not talking about owners inviting dignitaries to the owners' luxury suite. We're talking about teams giving away a massive amount of comps (apparently in these cases) to stack the house for the video cameras.

The same thing is going to happen this season because too little attention is being paid to marketing (actually selling tickets). Are the Rainmen the only team with an active PR department??? Speaking of PR, the PBL could have enlisted the services of one of downtown Chicago's advertising/public relations agencies to help them set-up this upcoming season (and that blue ninja on Patrick Dempsey's chest). These agencies can do it all. However, it takes real cash. Not the kind of flash cash we've seen so far from the PBL.

[Pounder]

Everyone comps... and I have a strong suspicion that the Portland Beavers have probably comped at a 50% rate during the 21st Century iteration.

90%? If that's true, it's what we call a cry for help.

Mind you, I need more information. Of course, I'm finding Ken to be entertaining here, and a song you'll hear at English grounds might apply...

"We're taking the piss / and having a laugh..."

[ALL BETS]

I am sorry to get into this but what I think the point Sonnie is tring to get across is. One of the reason the PBL said the final game had to be in New York is they that there arena would more full than Battle Creek. If we would of gave anyone who waited a free ticket we could of sold arena out. Yes every team give out some free ticket but to give anyone who wants one is not the right way to make money. Just my thoughts

[preeths]

How come when someone says anything against this league everyone piles on. Hey preeths why don't you censor some of these idiots? I know why ,this message board is a bunch of crap some folks can say anything and bash anyone but others can't. Your too bias to be the adminstrator!!!! And the Razorsharks gave out free tickets until 3Pm for the championship what a farce.

You need to grow up.

[CHris902]

I don't think the moniker is funny...but what can I do?!? Some people insist on being ignorant. Not you of course. 8)

Everyone in sports comps tickets??? We're not talking about owners inviting dignitaries to the owners' luxury suite. We're talking about teams giving away a massive amount of comps (apparently in these cases) to stack the house for the video cameras.

The same thing is going to happen this season because too little attention is being paid to marketing (actually selling tickets). Are the Rainmen the only team with an active PR department??? Speaking of PR, the PBL could have enlisted the services of one of downtown Chicago's advertising/public relations agencies to help them set-up this upcoming season (and that blue ninja on Patrick Dempsey's chest). These agencies can do it all. However, it takes real cash. Not the kind of flash cash we've seen so far from the PBL.

Everyone comps large numbers of tickets. Everyone. Period. In every form of entertainment. Whether or not teams (even successful ones) do it is not up for debate, the question really is how many tickets are too many and if the 90% number for the Razor Sharks is accurate then I think it's pretty clear that that's way too high of a percentage.

I am surprised by teams outside of Halifax and Vermont being unable to generate any significant amount of PR, particularly in Rochester. I assume it's a combination of money and other factors but you'd think some of these teams would be able to get some traction in their markets.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Everyone comps large numbers of tickets. Everyone. Period. In every form of entertainment. Whether or not teams (even successful ones) do it is not up for debate, the question really is how many tickets are too many and if the 90% number for the Razor Sharks is accurate then I think it's pretty clear that that's way too high of a percentage.

I am surprised by teams outside of Halifax and Vermont being unable to generate any significant amount of PR, particularly in Rochester. I assume it's a combination of money and other factors but you'd think some of these teams would be able to get some traction in their markets.

No, everyone doesn't comp large numbers of tickets. It de-values the ticket. Period.

I know I use the Gary Railcats of Northern League baseball a lot, but it's relevant and it IS minor league sports.

Let me tell you what they did. A few seasons back they raised the price of ALL tickets. Now they offer discounted tickets usually on weekday nights and fans are snapping those discounted tickets up. Guess what??? Those so-called discount tickets are practically the same price as the originally priced tickets from a few years past. Except for Mondays. Mondays is buy one, get one ticket free...and that ticket is not really free either because you have to buy a regularly priced ticket first. In other words, the fan is getting two tickets for 50% off. I've never seen these guys say, "Hi. Here's your free ticket. Enjoy!" They don't play that game. I've been friendly with these guys since the ballpark was built and they don't mind telling anyone within earshot that they've never lost money...ever. They don't give out free tickets.

Let me tell you what they do. They encourage season ticket holders to donate their unused tickets to worthy causes. Guess what??? Those tickets were bought and paid for by season tickets holders. Season ticket holders might as well donate 'em cause they ain't ever gonna see a refund. These guys (Railcats) don't play that game. If someone received a free ticket to a game, then you can bet a season ticket holder, suite holder, or another fan paid for that so-called free ticket.

[CHris902]

No, everyone doesn't comp large numbers of tickets. It de-values the ticket. Period.

I know I use the Gary Railcats of Northern League baseball a lot, but it's relevant and it IS minor league sports.

Let me tell you what they did. A few seasons back they raised the price of ALL tickets. Now they offer discounted tickets usually on weekday nights and fans are snapping those discounted tickets up. Guess what??? Those so-called discount tickets are practically the same price as the originally priced tickets from a few years past. Except for Mondays. Mondays is buy one, get one ticket free...and that ticket is not really free either because you have to buy a regularly priced ticket first. In other words, the fan is getting two tickets for 50% off. I've never seen these guys say, "Hi. Here's your free ticket. Enjoy!" They don't play that game. I've been friendly with these guys since the ballpark was built and they don't mind telling anyone within earshot that they've never lost money...ever. They don't give out free tickets.

Let me tell you what they do. They encourage season ticket holders to donate their unused tickets to worthy causes. Guess what??? Those tickets were bought and paid for by season tickets holders. Season ticket holders might as well donate 'em cause they ain't ever gonna see a refund. These guys (Railcats) don't play that game. If someone received a free ticket to a game, then you can bet a season ticket holder, suite holder, or another fan paid for that so-called free ticket.
Look K1, I don't have time to go digging up info on the Railcats, but the fact is that everyone else on this board seems to get the idea that comping some tickets is a normal practice in all sports. Even the single most profitable sports organization in North America did it at their last event (the UFC comped about 3000 of 12000 total tickets for their last event).

Just because they don't willy-nilly give them out to random fans in the parking lot does not mean that community groups, friends of employees and players aren't probably getting hundreds of tickets quietly issued to them. The question isn't if a team is comping tickets to the public, it's how quietly are they doing it and in what number. It's not at all a helpful discussion to just set up a black and white: Free tickets ALWAYS bad, no free tickets ALWAYS good conceptual model. When you lump a team giving out 400 tickets a game and a team giving out 4500 free tickets a game into the exact same category then you're not getting anywhere in terms of understanding how teams are operating. Things aren't always as simple as you try to make them out to be.

I am also a bit tired of you using the Railcats as a single example onto which you graft the entirety of not just minor league sports, not just sports, but the culture industry in its entirety. The Railcats are a massive exception to the normal rules of minor league sports. They convinced government to build them a brand new $45 MILLION dollar, purpose built stadium. A private, for profit minor league team had a $45M stadium built for them with public money. No other minor league sports team had that sort of gifted dropped into their lap and, aside from every other issue associated with that debacle, it skews any business side comparison of them to other teams.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Chris,
Are you now saying some comps because before you were saying large number of comps? Which is it?

If I wore yellow and stood really, really still then I could be a foul pole. That's how much time I have logged at the ballpark. I keep using the Gary Railcats as an example because I'm close to the situation. I don't know about the UFC, more power to them. The Railcats don't comp like that. It doesn't happen. It happens much like I explained in my previous post. Employees and players aren't getting hundreds of free tickets under the table. It would de-value Railcats tickets plain and simple. It doesn't happen in Major League Baseball either (another situation I'm somewhat close to). The players are given...not really given because it's part of their contract, four tickets per game. If they want more tickets (and I'm talking about major leaguers) then they have to beg a friend for THEIR unused tickets.

[CHris902]

By large numbers I mean generally in the hundreds (for people putting thousands of fans in the seats). You have consistently talked about how Wilmington are going under because one poster on this board met one person at a game who got comped tickets. For you, this seems to devalue the ticket all together.

I agree with you that at a certain point comping tickets devalues the product to the point that it is harmful. My purpose for starting this thread was to try to start a discussion amongst poster about what the point is when it becomes harmful. Your stand seems to be "when it's more than the Railcats" or "when it is anything more than a small handful" which is not at all constructive.

The problem with arguing with you is that you revert everything back to the amorphous and meaningly concept of "common sense" rather than using concrete evidence or examples.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

By large numbers I mean generally in the hundreds (for people putting thousands of fans in the seats). You have consistently talked about how Wilmington are going under because one poster on this board met one person at a game who got comped tickets. For you, this seems to devalue the ticket all together.

I agree with you that at a certain point comping tickets devalues the product to the point that it is harmful. My purpose for starting this thread was to try to start a discussion amongst poster about what the point is when it becomes harmful. Your stand seems to be "when it's more than the Railcats" or "when it is anything more than a small handful" which is not at all constructive.

The problem with arguing with you is that you revert everything back to the amorphous and meaningly concept of "common sense" rather than using concrete evidence or examples.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=14180&highlight=cool&page=3

Here. You want something concrete?

Coolest thing: As we were leaving, the Dawgs were giving everyone in attendance a ticket for Friday's game. So we got two playoff games for one.


This is nothing third party. This came directly from the poster who received the comp...and I've never said anything about Wilmington going under. Although, I've mentioned that things may not be as rosy there.

I'm following you on this thread. What point do comps become harmful, right??? In my opinion, the Razorsharks and Rainmen have crossed the point of no return. The more comps are issued, the more fans will demand to be comped. Don't shoot the messenger.

[bectond]

Well around here both the O's and the Nats have been selling tickets for a buck for the past month(I spend 20-30 each time I'm comped at the ball park), and when I go to A.C. I get a free room and free meals(the casinos watch how much I spend and have determined that comping me is a great idea).

I can't say I'm surprised that PBL teams are comping tickets,good for them. Because most PBL teams (like the Throwbacks, Panthers and Mid-Michigan Mayhem) can't give their tickets away.

[LightningMan]

Coolest thing: As we were leaving, the Dawgs were giving everyone in attendance a ticket for Friday's game. So we got two playoff games for one.
This is nothing third party. This came directly from the poster who received the comp...and I've never said anything about Wilmington going under, although, I've mentioned that things may not be as rosy there.
Okay. Let's not play games here, K1. My quote that you cited was about the playoff tickets they had a whole whopping two days to sell on the Friday of the biggest event in this town. Remember this:
Okay, let me explain the business side of it to you:

Friday is the start here of the Azalea Festival, the single biggest event in this town all year. There are concerts and scores of other events and attractions to attend, many of them at no cost. Moreso than any other time of the year, there are plenty of "something elses" to do on that night. By giving out the tickets, the team is removing a potential barrier for there being a crowd for the game.
However, what CHris902 is talking about is this part of the conversation you and I had:
As one of the guys I was sitting by and I discussed yesterday, there were a lot of people who were comped seats for one game or another or the entire season.
This is where you got the idea that Wilmington was "not rosy".

[misenern]

I'm following you on this thread. What point do comps become harmful, right??? In my opinion, the Razorsharks and Rainmen have crossed the point of no return. The more comps are issued, the more fans will demand to be comped. Don't shoot the messenger.

The Rainmen comping 400 tickets is "past the point of no return"? Yikes. Pro sports is in big trouble.

[runninref]

Are we still on this ... really? :mad:

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Are we still on this ... really? :mad:
Hmmmm. Apparently so. I guess people don't want me to provide concrete evidence either.

Speaking of concrete evidence. This is the link to page nine of the same thread I linked to in my previous post:
http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=14180&highlight=cool&page=9

Geez LightningMan! All you had to do was follow the thread above to confirm what I said and what I was responding to. Misspelling aside, this is what I said {emphasis mine}:


...speaking of YouTube video. I've got video of the 2006 CBA finals somewhere accessed by the link below. The Gary Genesis Center was about 90% full that day too. The Steelheads couldn't continue in the CBA the following season (thank goodness, IMO). I'm not saying a similar thing is going to happen with the Sea Dawgs, but I don't think everything is rosey in Wilmington either.


...back to the conjecture portion of this post.

The Rainmen comping 400 tickets is "past the point of no return"? Yikes. Pro sports is in big trouble.

I don't think pro sports is in big trouble. I think pro teams that comp too much are in big trouble.

[LightningMan]

Geez LightningMan! All you had to do was following the thread above to confirm what I said.
As usual, you miss the point. The point was from where you got your conjecture. It was the third hand information, not the playoff game, which you conveniently forgot and ignored.

I am going to back out again, since others have more than ably demonstrated the speciousness of your arguments.

[psbf]

Concrete evidence, Ken?? You're kidding right? I've never seen anything concrete from anything you've posted.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

As usual, you miss the point. The point was from where you got your conjecture. It was the third hand information, not the playoff game, which you conveniently forgot and ignored.


I've backed up what I'm saying. You need to do the same.

[LightningMan]

I've backed up what I'm saying. You need to do the same.
I did. Good bye.

[misenern]

I don't think pro sports is in big trouble. I think pro teams that comp too much are in big trouble.

400? Well, the UFC is doomed, so is junior hockey in Canada. Ken said so. If only they knew about the Gary Railcats.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

I moved this quote to this thread.

First you guys comment about red flags and Comped tickets at a championship game, at the same time forgetting the NFL comps 100% of the fans at the Super Bowl.


My own best friend wanted me to buy a Super Bowl package from him for some outrageous price (like $9000). It included tickets, hotel, after parties, and plane fare. He also wanted to know if I could sell the package to some of MY friends. I told him no one in the hood (including myself) wanted anything like that...and that was back when the economy was better.

Dollars to donuts those tickets my friend was selling were helping to finance the expense of the Superbowl. Besides, Anything the NFL is doing is apples and oranges compared to the PBL.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Promotion offers up 10,000 free tickets to Rainmen opener (http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/sports/article/383855)

“It’s exactly what we want to do to keep our momentum going,” said Rainmen owner Andre Levingston. “It’s going to be pretty hard to get a ticket for opening night.”

Rather, I think it's going to be pretty hard to BUY a ticket for opening night. Getting a free ticket should be quite easy. This mass ticket giveaway is sponsor driven, but a mass ticket giveaway is a mass ticket giveaway all the same. We have learned nothing from history and that is the downfall of many. Comping tickets devalues the product, especially when so many comps are made readily available.

This organization has already admitted to comping 400 tickets per game??? Isn't that correct? I've said and I'll say it again. If they admit to 400, then the actual numbers are more like 800. After today, I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the area of 1000.

[misenern]

This organization has already admitted to comping 400 tickets per game??? Isn't that correct? I've said and I'll say it again. If they admit to 400, then the actual numbers are more like 800. After today, I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the area of 1000.

They didn't admit to comping any. The "inside" number was 400. The only comps I've heard of are offered through sponsorships like this, but I don't know everyone obviously. So read into that what you may.

[Smash]

The Rainmen are not losing money on this. The tickets are being given away to the public, yes, but Rogers has PAID the Rainmen for these tickets as part of their sponsorship...that's 10,000 seats worth of ticket sales for the home opener.

That is a pretty penny for the Rainmen. There's no way they would've sold out the entire 10,000 seat stadium on opening night. So they're making a good profit from this move on Rogers' part.

Also, the majority of the tickets will be going to youth sports organizations and dis-advantaged children's groups so they will have the opportunity to see the Rainmen play. It's a great way to boost their image even further in the community.

Lastly, people go to the game because they've got a free ticket and they're more inclined to come back again as a paying customer. I think it's a win/win.

[misenern]

The Rainmen are not losing money on this. The tickets are being given away to the public, yes, but Rogers has PAID the Rainmen for these tickets as part of their sponsorship...that's 10,000 seats worth of ticket sales for the home opener.

That is a pretty penny for the Rainmen. There's no way they would've sold out the entire 10,000 seat stadium on opening night. So they're making a good profit from this move on Rogers' part.

Also, the majority of the tickets will be going to youth sports organizations and dis-advantaged children's groups so they will have the opportunity to see the Rainmen play. It's a great way to boost their image even further in the community.

Lastly, people go to the game because they've got a free ticket and they're more inclined to come back again as a paying customer. I think it's a win/win.

Yeah, it's also important to note that it's a preseason game. It's a pretty aggressive move.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

They didn't admit to comping any. The "inside" number was 400. The only comps I've heard of are offered through sponsorships like this, but I don't know everyone obviously. So read into that what you may.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

The Rainmen are not losing money on this. The tickets are being given away to the public, yes, but Rogers has PAID the Rainmen for these tickets as part of their sponsorship...that's 10,000 seats worth of ticket sales for the home opener.

That is a pretty penny for the Rainmen. There's no way they would've sold out the entire 10,000 seat stadium on opening night. So they're making a good profit from this move on Rogers' part.

Also, the majority of the tickets will be going to youth sports organizations and dis-advantaged children's groups so they will have the opportunity to see the Rainmen play. It's a great way to boost their image even further in the community.

Lastly, people go to the game because they've got a free ticket and they're more inclined to come back again as a paying customer. I think it's a win/win.

Same thing. Don't shoot the messenger.


...

Rather, I think it's going to be pretty hard to BUY a ticket for opening night. Getting a free ticket should be quite easy. This mass ticket giveaway is sponsor driven, but a mass ticket giveaway is a mass ticket giveaway all the same. We have learned nothing from history and that is the downfall of many. Comping tickets devalues the product, especially when so many comps are made readily available.

...

[misenern]

Don't shoot the messenger.

I am not quite sure what you are getting at.

All I tried to do was provide some clarity. The Rainmen never "admitted to" comping 400 tickets. That was a number that Chris heard. I don't know anyone who has received comped tickets. Again, that may or may not mean anything. I really don't know and neither do you, but we can draw our own conclusions.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Try not to get too hung-up on the number 400. The Rainmen comp a lot of tickets, period. Bill Veeck would spin around if he could observe the Rainmen's marketing strategy.

[psbf]

Now how would a guy from Indiana know what goes on in Nova Scotia? Oh right! The same way he knows about every other city in the league--He doesn't!

[Sam Hill]

Lastly, people go to the game because they've got a free ticket and they're more inclined to come back again as a paying customer. I think it's a win/win.

No,they are NOT more inclined to come back and pay the next time. Fans THINK that's the way it works. But it doesn't. They'll be lucky if 1-2% of those people who get comped come back and buy the product the next time.

You don't want to do too much in the way of giving away your product - you may get paid for it now (by the sponsor), but don't expect a big return later. Because it doesn't happen.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Now how would a guy from Indiana know what goes on in Nova Scotia? Oh right! The same way he knows about every other city in the league--He doesn't!


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/SYRwjl8qkUI/AAAAAAAABY8/xs65L1UuBgE/s400/irony.jpg

[LightningMan]

No,they are NOT more inclined to come back and pay the next time. Fans THINK that's the way it works. But it doesn't. They'll be lucky if 1-2% of those people who get comped come back and buy the product the next time.
One to two percent of the people coming back and paying are one to two percent more than you had.

You don't want to do too much in the way of giving away your product - you may get paid for it now (by the sponsor), but don't expect a big return later. Because it doesn't happen.
But if you get some return, if you grow your audience, then perhaps it may be worth it.

[psbf]

What's that supposed to mean, RWB?

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Now how would a guy from Indiana know what goes on in Nova Scotia? Oh right! The same way he knows about every other city in the league--He doesn't!

Well, this first paragraph doesn't exactly answer your question but there were times when the federal government allowed people from Indiana to travel beyond state borders. I've been to Nova Scotia, although at the time I thought it was a country or something. I just remember that they loved Yanks and were very trusting of Yanks. I've also spend a great deal of time in Buffalo because the consulting firm I worked for was headquartered in Buffalo. Some places near downtown Buffalo look exactly like Gary, no joke. Been to Oklahoma City...well, it's pretty close to Lawton. That's got to count for something. And of course I've been to Chicago, which I'm still allowed to venture into as long as I produce current Indiana identification papers upon request.

However and to answer your question. I learned about the 10,000 free ticket distribution through access to the Internet. The same Internet you and I use to post to this forum.

[panchess]

Gary is on the Indiana-Illinois border after all. You can almost see Chicago from there...:)

Most minor league baseball teams have a couple "sell the house" nights, with a local store or bank buying the stadium out and giving away free tickets as a promotion and to generate retail traffic.

One big difference between that and the Razorsharks handouts is that the team is getting some money for the effort. Not the full price for each ticket, but the "sell the house" night generate similar ticket dollars to a regular ballpark night, with enhanced parking and concessions.

Without the money for the tickets (and without a good concession deal), these kinds of nights don't work that well in basketball.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

No,they are NOT more inclined to come back and pay the next time. Fans THINK that's the way it works. But it doesn't. They'll be lucky if 1-2% of those people who get comped come back and buy the product the next time.


I totally agree with Sam. As a matter of fact, I don't understand how someone can rationalize (spin) an almost complete giveaway program like this. Oh right. The sponsor is paying for all the tickets.


You don't want to do too much in the way of giving away your product - you may get paid for it now (by the sponsor), but don't expect a big return later. Because it doesn't happen.

I'm still in total agreement and I'll take it even further. The team won't get a huge short-term return either. Teams and sports organizations usually always give up a lot to induce their sponsors to do something like this.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Gary is on the Indiana-Illinois border after all. You can almost see Chicago from there...:)


You CAN see Chicago's skyline from Gary's lakefront. Quite clearly.

Psbf can never seem to grasp that elusive concept of how people from far away places can know of life in even further away places. That's why I mentioned the border.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

What's that supposed to mean, RWB?

Don't want to get slapped again and told to go to PM...

let's just say you calling out someone else's lack of knowledge outside what you percieve to be their only geographic area of expertise is pot/kettle material.