Youngstown in the CHL?

[eightleggedfreak]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't entirely understand why the CHL is placing a team in Youngstown, Ohio. Weren't there numerous times when the league/owners routinely complained about the travel costs involved in going to play in Indianapolis? And Youngstown is what, 250 miles further east of Indianapolis?

It just seems to me like this expansion is doomed to fail. Youngstown would be better served in the ECHL or UHL, where they at least would have nearby teams. And the CHL could certainly find markets within it's region to expand to. Tucson, Little Rock, Baton Rouge and Jackson, MS are all without hockey teams right now.

[jonnysport]

The company/corporation that controls the CHL also has a subsidiary that oversees the building of arenas. They also have subsidiaries that deal with concessions and ticket sails.
It seems that if you build an arena under the "direction" of that company, it will make sure that you have a minor league hockey team as the principle tenant of your new building.
The Youngstown arena was built using the services of the subsidiary. And so, they have a central hockey league franchise.
The big question is -- what will happen in a couple of years when the Youngstown franchise discovers that it can't afford to fly to the mouth of the Rio Grand or the Colorado rockies or wherever?

[nksports]

You fold

[Global-Hockey]

You don't fold, you wait for the Johnstown Chiefs to drop from the ECHL and join the UHL. Then your travel costs are cut down and you gain a natural rival.

[nksports]

The Youngstown team won't have a choice to jump leagues because of the way it's structured and tied to the CHL. When the Youngstown team folds, then a new ownership group would be free to sign a lease, bring in a new team and join any league it wants, but then you ticked off your fan-base ala the Topeka ScareCrows in its CHL to USHL jump. That left the better run Topeka Tarantulas with too many burned out fans to care about the team.
Besides the UHL folded a team in that area once before it even got off the ground (remember the Ohio Gears, or maybe you don't). The UHL hasn't been able to make a go of it in Ohio yet — Dayton, Ohio and Columbus all folded quickly. (Dayton at least lasted the full season.)

[eightleggedfreak]

The Gears moved from Saginaw, MI to Masillion, OH mid-season. As if that wasn't enough to condemn them, they also played in a rec rink. No surprise they folded there. With Dayton and Columbus the UHL tried to compete with established teams, namely the ECHL's Dayton Bombers and the NHL's Columbus Blue Jackets.

Personally I think the UHL would be much better off by redefining itself as a regional midwestern league, rather than trying to maintain footholds in the northeast and south.

[Global-Hockey]

I agree. The UHL placed teams in cities where they were going head to head with the NHL and the ECHL. Also, the rinks they played in were to say the least buildings that highschool teams would not want to play in. Also, lets not forget ownership. The Dayton UHL team had an owner that after 1 season took advacne season ticket money for the next season and flew the coop so to speak. He left behind unpaid rent, a front ofice staff without paychecks, and league dues and fees. The Stars played in a rodeo barn. That ownership group was 100% responsible for the folding of the Waco Wizards of the then WPHL and the folding of the Tucson team before they even dropped the puck. In fact the WPHL banned that ownership group from ever owning a team in the WPHL. (Which is now a moot point). The Saginaw move was just a terrible mistake. Granted they were doomed in Saginaw, but that team also left the citizens of Saginaw as well as team employees holding a pretty big debt load,and bounced paychecks, if they were lucky to even get a check that bounced in the first place. They lost their radio contract (which I might say I broadcast a few games as the color guy for FREE). The Ohio move was a "I will show you who is boss" by the other team owner who wanted to make a statement. That was not a well thought out plan, and they did that without any sort of after thought. The city didn't want them, so it was cheaper to fold and write it off. Youngstown may do well with Johnstown probably the now natural rival. But I still predict within 2 years of the first dropping of the puck, Johnstown and Youngstown will be memebrs of the now east directed UHL

[nksports]

I thought the Stars played at the Stackhouse Coliseum (the arena at the state fairgrounds) where the old Columbus Owls/Capitols et.al. used to play. Ohio State tried playing there a couple of times before its new crib was finished. (The old OSU rink only seated 1,200). It was a great place for high school basketball. It only seated around 4,500 for hockey. But it was dark and dirty. When the old IHL teams played there, it had chicken wire instead of Plexiglass.

To the Dayton UHL team's credit, they did try to revive old Hara Arena as a playing venue. It only seats about 5,000 and it's hard to get to from anywhere in Dayton (although the upgraded OH-49 makes it a little easier). I used to spend many a day in my youth there watching the great Dayton Gems of the IHL. The problem with the Nutter Center is that it's clean, easy to get to and way too big for Class AA minor league hockey.

If Ohio is a market they want to break into, maybe the UHL should put a team at Hobart Arena in Troy. While it only seats around 4,000 (maybe a little less with ADA-type requirements), Miami County as a whole, coupled with the adjoining counties to the north, east and west would make the market about as big as some of the Michigan UHL teams. The building certainly has the ole-timey feeling. It used to house an IHL team in the 50s and some semi-pro teams in the 80s and 90s.

On the WHPL thing being moot, it actually isn't. If you look at the way the CHL-WPHL merger was structured, each ownership group was actually retained. (The CHL was semi-centrally owned and Horn Chen still owns Wichita outright, is selling the Topeka team and holds minority interests in Oklahoma City and Tulsa), the WPHL held its own semi-central ownership through the company which helped build the Youngstown arena (the company name escapes me). Technically, the two leagues could split apart if they wanted to (but the merger has proven too successful to do that).

[nksports]

I thought the Stars played at the Stackhouse Coliseum (the arena at the state fairgrounds) where the old Columbus Owls/Capitols et.al. used to play. Ohio State tried playing there a couple of times before its new crib was finished. (The old OSU rink only seated 1,200). It was a great place for high school basketball. It only seated around 4,500 for hockey. But it was dark and dirty. When the old IHL teams played there, it had chicken wire instead of Plexiglass.

To the Dayton UHL team's credit, they did try to revive old Hara Arena as a playing venue. It only seats about 5,000 and it's hard to get to from anywhere in Dayton (although the upgraded OH-49 makes it a little easier). I used to spend many a day in my youth there watching the great Dayton Gems of the IHL. The problem with the Nutter Center is that it's clean, easy to get to and way too big for Class AA minor league hockey.

If Ohio is a market they want to break into, maybe the UHL should put a team at Hobart Arena in Troy. While it only seats around 4,000 (maybe a little less with ADA-type requirements), Miami County as a whole, coupled with the adjoining counties to the north, east and west would make the market about as big as some of the Michigan UHL teams. The building certainly has the ole-timey feeling. It used to house an IHL team in the 50s and some semi-pro teams in the 80s and 90s.

On the WHPL thing being moot, it actually isn't. If you look at the way the CHL-WPHL merger was structured, each ownership group was actually retained. (The CHL was semi-centrally owned and Horn Chen still owns Wichita outright, is selling the Topeka team and holds minority interests in Oklahoma City and Tulsa), the WPHL held its own semi-central ownership through the company which helped build the Youngstown arena (the company name escapes me). Technically, the two leagues could split apart if they wanted to (but the merger has proven too successful to do that).

[Pounder]

There was a lawsuit, forget which one, involving the CHL...

...but the legal name of the organization per the legal papers is "the WPHL doing business as the CHL."

It could be argued that the WPHL is the live entity.

[nksports]

I wasn't aware of any lawsuits at the time of the merger. A couple of years before, there were a couple of them. One involved honoring contracts (the WPHL was accused of signing players already under CHL contracts). I think the other involved the lease arrangement in Fort Worth, where both leagues tried to operate teams at the same time. I'm not sure either went all the way to court. I know that the owners of both leagues decided to make nice (both leagues had some shaky franchises at the time). They decided it was better to hang together than hang separately. They merged, threw out some of the deadwood teams (some of the CHL teams in the southeast and some WPHL teams such as Tuepelo and Lake Charles). Everyone seems to be getting along right now.

[Pounder]

No, I'm pretty sure the lawsuit in question was after the merger.

I shouldn't speculate, but I'm just naughty at times. I believe it had to do with Tupelo, maybe after they were dumped. The WPHL dba CBA may have been the plaintiff for all I know.

[HockeyCanuck]

The lawsuit was to keep Tupelo from joining the WHA2 a couple years back. The T-Rex dropped from the WPHL to the AWHL and wanted to rejoin the pro ranks by getting into the WHA2. They were still under a "Non compete" clause with the CHL/WPHL. The CHL which is now run by the WPHL heads wouldn't allow it to happen.