Info from PBL Owners meeting...PBL China deal goes through

[a1sports]

Information coming in , bits at a time.

1. Augusta out.
2. Mid michigan out
3. Chicago taking a year off



BIG NEWS at meeting was : PBL had there championship game televised in China, May 13, 2009 to 500 million homes. Have working realtionship with China TV to broadcast PBL games.


more to come......as I get the info

[tbayz1]

http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2009/05/11/daily21.html?surround=lfn

[LightningMan]

Any teams that took a break last year coming back? Any teams from other leagues defecting?

[TheStandard]

From a very good source at the meetings.

There is talking of having a Chinese team play in the PBL and not Beijing of ABA. Also there was talks of having teams go to China and play games there. Also the concept of having a Chinese national be part of every PBL teams roster. I personally like that concept.

Also the talks of sports betting via las vegas along with virtual stadiums for each team.

The chinese concept is that there is a 500 million population viewing audience in their spectrum. The league can truly get sponsors from China to invest in the league and also have their product advertised in the United States and in China at a good price.

Also it looks like Oklahoma from the CBA is virtually a lock in along with a New I MEAN NEW Albany, New York Franchise. It is not the Patroons, but it truly looks like there will be a team in New York which will truly help out Buffalo, Vermont and Reading in creating rivalries and also attracting fans.

I did get word that the meeting was professional but also too much talk and not a lot of substance, Maybe it was all Random thoughts or the PBL is mentioning things but also not putting the eggs in the basket in a newmanistic way where Joe Newman says this and then nothing comes out of it just excuses. Thats all.

[LightningMan]

Lawton / Fort Sill is kind of far away from everything (as is Wilmington now, *sigh*).

[TheStandard]

Nothing is as far as Halifax. Quebec is too far for them also if you look at it.

People have to step up to get a team closer to Halifax, but the economy is bad. Factors are bad. Nothing you can really do.

[LightningMan]

Nothing is as far as Halifax. Quebec is too far for them also if you look at it.
I am looking at it and Quebec geographically fits with Vermont and Manchester fairly well, actually. And Oklahoma looks to be more than a skotch farther from Rochester than Halifax:

Fort Sill to Rochester: 1258 miles (2024 kilometers)
Halifax to Rochester: 705 miles (1134 kilometers)
Wilmington to Rochester: 618 miles (995 kilometers)

[a1sports]

I think they are being cautious and not being like Joe.

I heard they talked about the problems Joe has created in minor league basketball. How to be prepared when sponsors say >.we hope your not the ABA....

On line and gamling and Las Vegas sports book will include the PBL.....<<<< thats BIGGER than China IMO.

[PBLfan9]

From a very good source at the meetings.

There is talking of having a Chinese team play in the PBL and not Beijing of ABA. Also there was talks of having teams go to China and play games there. Also the concept of having a Chinese national be part of every PBL teams roster. I personally like that concept.

Also the talks of sports betting via las vegas along with virtual stadiums for each team.

The chinese concept is that there is a 500 million population viewing audience in their spectrum. The league can truly get sponsors from China to invest in the league and also have their product advertised in the United States and in China at a good price.

Also it looks like Oklahoma from the CBA is virtually a lock in along with a New I MEAN NEW Albany, New York Franchise. It is not the Patroons, but it truly looks like there will be a team in New York which will truly help out Buffalo, Vermont and Reading in creating rivalries and also attracting fans.

I did get word that the meeting was professional but also too much talk and not a lot of substance, Maybe it was all Random thoughts or the PBL is mentioning things but also not putting the eggs in the basket in a newmanistic way where Joe Newman says this and then nothing comes out of it just excuses. Thats all.

Are you saying it may be madatory for every team to have Chinese player on their team?
What if the coach or the organization does not want a Chinese player because they dont believe they can find one who can benefit the team? And if they are on the team do they have to play or can they be the last roster spot that rarely ever plays? And if a team like Rochestor or BC (or anyone) feel they have no need for a player who they feel is not beneficial to the team and is forced to have a Chinese player then does the organization have to pay the player and all there expenses (such as living) or does the PBL pay for it?
I dont think you should force that issue if a team or organization does not find a player they feel can benefit their team.

[Minor League Man]

I'm also wondering if Quad City, Reading, and Maryland are coming back...Also, what's the status of the "expansion teams" announced at the draft (in Omaha, Colorado, Seattle, etc.)

[PBLfan9]

I dont think Maryland is going to come back.....they probably will keep traveling to market the PBL

[DazedAndAmused]

On line and gamling and Las Vegas sports book will include the PBL.....<<<< thats BIGGER than China IMO.

This may be overly cynical (and please call me out on it because I want to be wrong) but when I think of guys making $50/game and how they might be "influenced" to affect the outcome of games......I mean, I'm just sayin.

[SignGuyDino]

Amen.

No minor league should have lines. Ever.

Too many variables besides temptation. Ahem...LAST-SECOND playoff schedule changes, etc.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

This may be overly cynical (and please call me out on it because I want to be wrong) but when I think of guys making $50/game and how they might be "influenced" to affect the outcome of games......I mean, I'm just sayin.

There's nothing overly cynical about asking the questions that need to be asked. Besides, history is at play again. Online gambling and tv deals with China?!? The PBL never fails to disappoint when it comes to pie-in-the-sky promises. What is concrete that came out of the owners' meetings?

Here's a question that should be asked. What was the market-share on the Chinese broadcast that reached 500 million homes? The PBL Internet webcasts reached more viewers than that worldwide. Doesn't mean people are tuned-in though.

[DazedAndAmused]

There's nothing overly cynical about asking the questions that need to be asked. Besides, history is at play again. Online gambling and tv deals with China?!? The PBL never fails to disappoint when it comes to pie-in-the-sky promises. What is concrete that came out of the owners' meetings?

Here's a question that should be asked. What was the market-share on the Chinese broadcast that reached 500 million homes? The PBL Internet webcasts reached more viewers than that worldwide. Doesn't mean people are tuned-in though.

I'd like to know what concrete came out too.

I don't have a particular problem with a Chinese initiative. I can tell you from other business dealings, they are flush with cash and like buying "American"....at least they used to before we ran up our gov't credit card and devalued our currency. (Ok, that's a post for another board.)

But, I'm not diggin the gambling angle and I think the league first needs to firm up its teams and things like its payroll structure. (And, I think a Dleague like structure, not necessarily the same $s, might be the best way to go given the follies from the last two years.....each team then escrows the same amount, managed by a 3rd party escrow agent.)

I'd like to see what posters who were there have to say.

[bdyer]

Was there anything concrete announced to avoid a repeat of the two biggest embarrassments of the past season -- teams' folding midseason and the playoff debacle?

[nksports]

Was there anything concrete announced to avoid a repeat of the two biggest embarrassments of the past season -- teams' folding midseason and the playoff debacle?

Those might end up being what's bet on. 3-2 playoffs moved. 2-1 team x folds.

[bectond]

Sports betting? Who would decide the spread? What would it be, "I'll take the Razorsharks + 93 at 1 to 70."

[a1sports]

more info...

1. Chinese lady that manages a hedge fund spoke about going to china is a smart move because china is flush with cash and they want to see basketball..pick up sponsors like mcdonalds. etc etc
2. Deposits will be required this season. Also teams were warned, if you can play tell us now and take a year off or screw up and get sued. A team from last year that drpped out is being sued by league for submitting false information on financial forms.
3. A centralized worker comp program for all teams, and surgeries will be done is chicago for all teams
4. Albany may be coming this year. no word yet. Albany coach at meeting
5. A Las Vegas travelling team may be coming
6. Scranton not coming till 2011 and Omaha in 2011
7. Head of Canadian NAtional BAsketball Federation was there.
8. Lots of talk about how Joe has ruined minor leasgue basketball in many cities. and how to explain to sponsors that ABA doesnt count as a pro league
9.TAlk about PBL sponosring a car in the LEmans race that will be driven by Patrick Demsey of Greys anatomy. Took months to clear the deal( joe must have gotten wind of this deal and he ran to get a 10 cent decal on a NASCAR)
10. Some d league owners contacted PBL about franchises.

[DazedAndAmused]

1. Chinese lady that manages a hedge fund spoke about going to china is a smart move because china is flush with cash and they want to see basketball..pick up sponsors like mcdonalds. etc etc could be good, probably best to go public when details are firm
2. Deposits will be required this season. Also teams were warned, if you can play tell us now and take a year off or screw up and get sued. A team from last year that drpped out is being sued by league for submitting false information on financial forms. about time, but why waste time suing someone who doesn't have two nickels to their name; put that energy in to the league
3. A centralized worker comp program for all teams, and surgeries will be done is chicago for all teams ok, but shouldn't be needed; teams should be mandated to handle
4. Albany may be coming this year. no word yet. Albany coach at meeting tell us when it is firm, much more professional
5. A Las Vegas travelling team may be coming tell us when it is firm, much more professional
6. Scranton not coming till 2011 and Omaha in 2011 tell us when it is firm, much more professional
7. Head of Canadian NAtional BAsketball Federation was there. doing what?
8. Lots of talk about how Joe has ruined minor leasgue basketball in many cities. and how to explain to sponsors that ABA doesnt count as a pro league not sure why time in a meeting would be wasted with that
9.TAlk about PBL sponosring a car in the LEmans race that will be driven by Patrick Demsey of Greys anatomy. Took months to clear the deal( joe must have gotten wind of this deal and he ran to get a 10 cent decal on a NASCAR) to the rest of world, it looks like the pbl copied joe on this...what's with the joe fetish?
10. Some d league owners contacted PBL about franchises. tell us when it is firm, much more professional

I don't know how much of this is true or not, but if that much time was spent on "Joe," I think priorities should be adjusted just a bit.

Find 8 to 10 tens that can get through the season paying their bills. That should have been items 1 to 10.

[panchess]

Patroons' management is hardly perfect, but it's hard to imagine a new Albany owner and coach coming into the market and doing better.

Given that the River Rats (AHL hockey) and Arena Football teams have been for sale for two years without a buyer, I can't imagine some well-heeled person suddenly buying an expansion minor league pro basketball team in this market.

A bootstrap team isn't going to do well in this market. Just because a new team wouldn't carry the Patroons name doesn't mean people won't compare the product.

[CHris902]

It would be sad if the Patroons name doesn't carry on in minor league basketball.

[basketball facts]

This has ABA written all over it. Instead of working with a solid owner and a great venue they find some other owner put the team in the same area and hope for the best. Can we say Alleycats, etc.?Joe Neuman putting teams right in the backyards of other clubs, now the PBL is doing the same thing in Albany.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

I've said all along the PBL is too into egos and not enough into substance. If the beforementioned list of ten is as firm as it gets going into the summer, then this league needs to sit out a year and re-think their goals and objectives. Probably they need to find some realistic goals and objectives, period.

The Chinese may be flush with cash, but that doesn't mean they are unwise with cash. The economy is global and the Chinese are feeling the pinch too.

panchess,
I really don't see another ownership group coming into Albany and doing any better either. That's just poor market research on anyone attempting to do so. This sort of thing reminds me of the ABA putting a second franchise in towns to punish the established franchises. Now it's the PBL's turn.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

This has ABA written all over it. Instead of working with a solid owner and a great venue they find some other owner put the team in the same area and hope for the best. Can we say Alleycats, etc.?Joe Neuman putting teams right in the backyards of other clubs, now the PBL is doing the same thing in Albany.

I submitted my post before I read your post. The PBL obviously has no direction and should take time off to regroup (although, that probably won't happen). Everything about that list of ten screams ABAish. Poor ownership groups are going to be allowed to play as always. What's this stuff about tell us now if you're ready to play or not?!? Either a team can post something equivalent to a $100,000 letter of credit before the season starts or they can't.

[psbf]

I've been reading these posts, many of them good. But mine has to do with getting fans in the seats. Chances are better that a good product on the court will increase that. But my experience of going to Xplosion and Riverhounds games, has taught me that a better chance of bringing them out is having promotional nights and handing out free souvenirs from sponsors at the gates as they enter. Everyone loves free stuff, even if a diehard supporter is willing to pay at the concession stand. Some may argue with me on this, but I've seen the difference first hand. When the local teams stopped doing it, the crowds got smaller.

[LightningMan]

Those of you bashing the Albany move are treating what A1 reported as a possibility as a reality. The Albany team could be the Toronto Lazers all over again.

As to why so much time was spent on Joe, it's actually pretty smart and pretty necessary. Potential towns, owners, and sponsors rightfully raise issues with how the ABA (and the PBL for that matter) conducts itself. When you're asking someone for their money and the last guy through was a con man, you need to intelligently and consistently show that you're not.

Back when I was in radio, a market competitor with similar calls made it imperative that we identify ourselves and kept our reputations as separate as possible. I think it's simply that.

[LightningMan]

I've been reading these posts, many of them good. But mine has to do with getting fans in the seats. Chances are better that a good product on the court will increase that. But my experience of going to Xplosion and Riverhounds games, has taught me that a better chance of bringing them out is having promotional nights and handing out free souvenirs from sponsors at the gates as they enter. Everyone loves free stuff, even if a diehard supporter is willing to pay at the concession stand. Some may argue with me on this, but I've seen the difference first hand. When the local teams stopped doing it, the crowds got smaller.
Has anyone said to not give stuff to the crowd? I missed that.

[LightningMan]

Find 8 to 10 tens that can get through the season paying their bills. That should have been items 1 to 10.
Let's see...

Quebec
Halifax
Vermont
Manchester
Rochester
Wilmington
Buffalo
Battle Creek?

They either have their eight or are one short.

[psbf]

Maybe I missed it too, LM. But some posters seem to be so busy trying to prove me wrong that appreciating my thoughts appear non existant to them.
And from the posts that I've read, the emphasis has been on ticket sales.
If someone had brought it up, my appologies to them. Anyway, that's my input.

[DazedAndAmused]

Let's see...

Quebec
Halifax
Vermont
Manchester
Rochester
Wilmington
Buffalo
Battle Creek?

They either have their eight or are one short.

I should have been more clear. Relative to A1's post (which yes, let's separate from the actual league position), I wanted to see 8 or 10 different items or initiatives that pertain to HOW to ensure better funded and more committed organizations so that we have no dropouts or issues mid season. I wasn't referencing the individual teams per se. Your list may be largely "good", though perhaps with a couple of question marks. I would call it a solid 5.5 at this point.

I still believe there is a little too much emphasis on "Joe" and the ABA (again, if you take A1s word.) Yes, these teams have to distance themselves and differentiate themselves from the shady side of minor league sports in their marketing efforts. That's a given in my book. (BTW, it's not just the ABA that has burned sponsors in these markets.) Best way to do that is play all of your games, stick to your stated plans, and demonstrate progress in growing the fan base. The PBL, though the best outside of the Dleague the last year or two, hasn't fully done that. I am optimistic that they can, but they need to firm up the foundation.

[DazedAndAmused]

I've said all along the PBL is too into egos and not enough into substance. If the beforementioned list of ten is as firm as it gets going into the summer, then this league needs to sit out a year and re-think their goals and objectives. Probably they need to find some realistic goals and objectives, period.

The Chinese may be flush with cash, but that doesn't mean they are unwise with cash. The economy is global and the Chinese are feeling the pinch too.

panchess,
I really don't see another ownership group coming into Albany and doing any better either. That's just poor market research on anyone attempting to do so. This sort of thing reminds me of the ABA putting a second franchise in towns to punish the established franchises. Now it's the PBL's turn.

There is zero reason for the league to sit out this year...not sure where that is coming from, except from a place of total "unknowing." There are probably 6 solid teams, with 3 or 4 on the fence. With the right league protocols in place, there could be 8 solid teams. All 8 of those teams are many steps above any remaining ABA team. However, the other 5 from last year...not so much. This all assumes no expansion. Yep, the league has issues to work through (and I have complaints), but it is a far cry from the ABA or IBL....very far.

[a1sports]

Clarifying some info that I received.

1. The hedge fund woman is not chinese but philippino and she resides half the year in china. Google her name and its very impressive: Lilia Clemente
2. The broadcast deal involves 20 games to be televised in china with the PBL selling the sponsorship.
3. The producers and crew from Greys Anatomy were at the meeting.
4. A woman who does National Sponsorship deals was there.
5. A demostartion of a virtual studio was shown from LA that would be used for PBL pre game and post game show and a weekly wrap up.
6. Satellite radio programer was there but didnt speak.
7. The CEO of Canadain Basketball Federation was there. Talk was about placing a Canadian travel team in the PBL. Discussed but no knowledge of when this would happen.

Based on what I have heard so far I disagree with above post that this is pie in the sky...You must mean ABA when you say that, Joe is full of BS, at least these guys produce and are working toward a goal that would help all owners not like Joe does to help only himself. AND yes I think it was smart to mention how to distance your self from the ABA and show your the respectable league and not the con mans league. DOes the league need to get better owneship, yes they do, but talking about reducing teams is the first step. Asking for 100K letter of credit is old school and would not be smart in these economic times. If the PBL has the deep pockets to still be around then they are doing some things right. But I guess you can say the ABA is also still around and that league does nothing right......, well at least Joe makes money.

[wellington]

I don't get the China deal. People in China are not dumb -- why would they want to watch minor league basketball when they can watch NBA, Euro League -- yes Chinese are flush with cash, but they are very brand conscious and I don't think PBL stacks up (sorry -- maybe in 5-10 years). I think the league should focus it's attention here in the US. I don't want to be too negative because the PBL has a lot going for it -- to me the D-League's future is tenuous at best especially with the economic downturn. The PBL could easily become the #2 league in the country if they can survive the economic tempest. As others have mentioned I'd really focus on the Northeast and continue building a strong core of teams (which they already have in place). Maybe I'm totally wrong, but just my 2 cents...

[tops804]

I don't get the China deal. People in China are not dumb -- why would they want to watch minor league basketball when they can watch NBA, Euro League -- yes Chinese are flush with cash, but they are very brand conscious and I don't think PBL stacks up (sorry). I think the league should focus it's attention here in the US. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but just my 2 cents...

I've thought the same thing. What did the China deal do for the PBL last season?
With the finals being scammed the way they were, it really took any legitimacy
out of the entire season.

Does the PBL plan on major expansion overseas?

How will this benefit those of us in the states who just want to see stable
teams play out a season without compromise?

I can't help but to believe that on another board, signing an overseas TV deal
when the league can't align teams and schedules here, would be accused of
being ABAish.

[a1sports]

How about they are doing China for revenue? Lets look at it another way. If china wants to broadcast PBL games and the PBL can sell advertising and make money it would put the league in a good money position.

You cant say it doesnt make sense untill we know whats behind the move, my guess to genearte revenue. No more than FOX showing english soccer league games or the CFL on USA TV. etc etc. If someone wants to sponsor it..why not>?

They do have a sports network...@sportsTV and a satellite distributor for the network so why not send the signal to who ever wants it.

At least so far these guys are putting the money where their mouth is....unlike Joe and the pseudo ABA rec league..BS promises that never happen.

[panchess]

My comment vis-a-vis the Patroons wasn't to bash the PBL; I am just taking a look at the current Albany market.

You have operators who own a building, and found it cheaper to cut the season than turn the lights on for games, and said so in the local papers.

Love them or hate them, the same management team that runs the Patroons is the only one ever to run a successful minor league basketball team in Albany. The fact they can't now means one of the following: too much other competition, they have "lost their fastball" or the product is sub-par. Some of each is at work with the CBA, but I don't think any of it is fixed with the PBL.

[skippy]

I've been reading these posts, many of them good. But mine has to do with getting fans in the seats. Chances are better that a good product on the court will increase that. But my experience of going to Xplosion and Riverhounds games, has taught me that a better chance of bringing them out is having promotional nights and handing out free souvenirs from sponsors at the gates as they enter. Everyone loves free stuff, even if a diehard supporter is willing to pay at the concession stand. Some may argue with me on this, but I've seen the difference first hand. When the local teams stopped doing it, the crowds got smaller.


Good point.

[not so fast]

I don't normally comment on these issues regarding promotions, sales, advertising, attendance, etc.. I usually leave that for my friend ken steelheads. But I will say that it would seem that for any franchise to work, you have to give it time, meaning three years. So a potential owner needs to be prepared to lose money for three years right from the beginning. With that understanding you would then try and put a good respectable product of players, good young men who do good work of community service, so to introduce your team to the town, that would include going to schools talking to schools kids, even visiting senior facilities, and demonstrating that they care about the community that they want to support them.

Then constant working the local media for coverage. And in most communities you have to really push this. And that is why you need to tell every owner you need full time marketing and sales people working this year round. Churches, civic organizations, AAU teams, etc... can all be just a few avenues to start building a base of fans.

You have to get the best venue you can, and you can't spare cost by not having enough staff at games. I can remember riding into Gary for steelheads game, and to be honest, It was a little scary. But once I got to the arena, and saw the security and staff which was plenty., it was all good. and the game was great.

I have not been to a Rochester game in Rochester, but I got to think it is well run. With that being said, the pbl two, doc and doyle should really be truthful to all of these teams and potential owners, and tell them what it really takes to make it go, and point to Rochester as a shining example.

Critics can criticize the pbl all they want, but Rochester does do it right. The players I know that played for them, cannot say enough great things about their experience.

I am not sure what they are asking of the owners, but I hope that they honestly tell them what they need to be successful.

Then, if the China deal happens, and they get revenue from that source, then that would all be extra so to really promote the league!

[TheStandard]

Ok my two cents in regards of this. First off, Albany. If the new owners or hey the current patroon owners do the following. 1. Put a good team 2. PROMOTE and Promote early and then constantly 3. Affordable prices and 4. Have true capital to run things: The people in Albany and in the surrounding areas which we can include up to Glens Falls and Utica will support the team. But hey, You have to do things right.

Second. In regards of the PBL and China TV Deal. Will the games be televised live? Or in tape delay for Chinese Prime Time or will it be relegated to Late Night? This all matters in regards of sponsorship depending on when it will be televised. Sponsors pay accordingly depending on the time slot because they know according to the time slot they are going to be in, how much they will pay to have their brand on tv.

Example the BSN yes I use the BSN a lot. But it seems that they do it right, well 81 seasons I guess they are. Games are online through several teams because they can do it. But all the games are on Radio also. But then there is the BSN televised games. Always at 8pm. 8pm is Prime Time and Live. Sponsors pay a good dime to be displayed at that time including the ones that pay the teams to have their ads displayed in the sidelines, in the arena and on the court. Now I got to see the replay of the games which they do at 1am and then the next day in the morning the commercials are different because of the hours and this is what the League and DirecTV have set up with different sponsors. During the live game I see commercials for car companies, beer, airlines, hotel chains, every big and marketable thing. The late night replay I get to see Billy Mays selling in a 30 second commercial some new product that you have never seen before or the late night phone chat hotlines. So, it all depends when are the games going to be seen because your league revenue in regards of the sponsors will have a huge outcome due to this.

Third. The teams, hey all teams need a letter of credit I feel. All teams need to put up their bond. A salary bond. If the PBL salary cap is 120k well all the teams have to put up a 120k bond also show proof that the arena rent has been paid. The league and fellow team owners can not assume that things were done right, you need proof that it was done right. Team, Promote. Early and constantly. PROMOTE. To get crowds you have to spend and do work.

Hey aren't we all sick of ABAish moves all across the table?

[Paul S]

Good point Standard.

Most of us are sick of the jack-@ss way of running the ABA which has left the league in such a poor light.

I hope these iniatives work out for the PBL. A1 is right, they must have deep pockets to still be going, growing and playing. I think they are very smart to be aware of Joe and his trainwreck of a league. You need to be able to assure any sponsor, fan, arena manager and potential employee that you are diametrically different from the ABA.


Finally PSBF as someone who toiled in minor leagues for a few years you are (once again) sort of/kind of/ somewhat on the right track with promotions and free stuff. Yes everyone loves them, but they cost money. Your cost per unit needs to be under $1.00 for the team and that includes the employees time handing them out, a sponsor is needed to either bring that down or pay for it all.

The whole idea behind these things were not to get people in the door, but get people in the door early. Thats why they hand out 4000 if they think attendance will be 6500. They want kids hassling their parents to get them there early so they can get a free _______ (insert promotion here). This has a double effect of reducing 1/ the crush of people buying tix and trying to fight there way into the game at 7:25pm and 2/ those early birds end up buying an extra beer, soda, hotdog,and wandering through the pro shop etc.

Most every minor league team will hold off the start of a game to allow people to find their seats, getting them in early is the best way to do this.

As an aside the highest cost unit we ever gave out was the one people wouldn't show up early for...........the fridge magnet. You couldn't never get a sponsor, as your existing team sponsors were already on it but if the client did put it on his/her fridge it would be there as a reference the whole season.

[panchess]

On the Albany stuff, Utica is a separate market. It's two hours away. I have thought for a while that the lack of hockey and D1 sports, and the influx of Eastern European refugees to Utica in recent years, would make this market plausible for a team in the PBL or CBA.

As for Glens Falls, it is close enough to Albany to be "in the market," though it is worth noting that both the AHL and USBL saw fit to allow Glens Falls teams at the same time they were in Albany. Just food for thought.

[TheStandard]

well it depends. Many say they can make the trip from Albany to Utica in one hour I personally beleive its 75-90 minutes I used to make the trip constantly from NYC to Utica with a stop in Albany to stretch out. In regards of Utica in sports. The minor league team there played in the ugliest of so called stadiums, in hockey ever since the Devils left that poor auditorium nothing has been the same, but look at the Aud it basically a white elephant except for the fact that Utica College draws crowds of 3-4 thousand per game in Division 3 hockey at the Aud. I love the place. It is home of one my favorite movies of all time "Slap Shot" and I wish they would make a remake of that movie and do it at the Aud again. The Aud is reminds me of what MSG used to look like a long time ago. Also, The Aud is more adequate for Hockey than it is for basketball. I've played and have attended the SUNYAC tournament when it was hosted there and the place was cold and also we had problems with the court due to the condensation of the ice when they would turn up the heat so everyone played without heat after those happenings. Maybe if the economy gets better then a good renovation to the aud can be made. Can basketball be a good thing in Utica? Maybe. I think its better suited for hockey. Oh and in regards of D1 Sports. I've met every D1 Coach Utica College had in a reunion, forget it. They all said Syracuse is King in Utica in 1987 they relegated all of their sports to D3.

Glens Falls well, with the Phantoms moving from Philly to Glens Falls hockey is back in that city now for basketball I can say if you do the right things you can get people in there. But, I wouldn't want to hamper things for Albany. Maybe if Albany chose to hold games in Glens Falls and it draws well then you can have a team step into that city.

I do think that the PBL should see these cities as good locations. Scranton, Worcester, Trenton, White Plains, NY , Richmond, Gary, ID, Fort Wayne, Rockford (with a real good owner). Oh and don't bother with Baltimore that place is minor league hell

[psbf]

Not to get offtopic, but I've seen the movie Slapshot a couple of times and the closing credits say it was filmed in Johnstown, Pa(a couple hours East of here and starring the late Paul Newman). Maybe the storyline was about Albany?

[Chuck the Writer]

Not to get offtopic, but I've seen the movie Slapshot a couple of times and the closing credits say it was filmed in Johnstown, Pa(a couple hours East of here and starring the late Paul Newman). Maybe the storyline was about Albany?

Are you serious?

No, really, are you serious?

Slap Shot was about life in the old North American Hockey League in the mid-1970's. That would be like my saying that I saw the film The Fish That Saved Pittsburgh and suggested that maybe it was about the Osceola NIFL team.

Man oh man oh man....

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1201/1408163640_670eacaa1c.jpg

[tops804]

Not to get offtopic, but I've seen the movie Slapshot a couple of times and the closing credits say it was filmed in Johnstown, Pa(a couple hours East of here and starring the late Paul Newman). Maybe the storyline was about Albany?

...and I've seen the Bad News Bears, and I'm pretty certain that its storyline has to do
with the way the Cleveland Indians have been playing lately. :mad:

[The Sweeper]

Not to get offtopic, but I've seen the movie Slapshot a couple of times and the closing credits say it was filmed in Johnstown, Pa(a couple hours East of here and starring the late Paul Newman). Maybe the storyline was about Albany?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slap_Shot_(film)

"Slap Shot is a 1977 film starring Paul Newman and Michael Ontkean and directed by George Roy Hill. The film is based on a screenplay written by Nancy Dowd, based in part on her brother Ned Dowd's experiences playing minor league hockey in the United States in the 1970s, during which time violence, especially in the low minors, was the selling point of the game."

One of the greatest movies. Why did they have to make 2 sequels (more than 25 years after the original)??

[panchess]

Portions of Slap Shot were filmed in Syracuse, along with Johnstown. I am not sure if any of it was filmed in Utica. No Albany team is mentioned in Slap Shot.

It's 94 miles from downtown Utica to downtown Albany, according to Mapquest.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

I do think that the PBL should see these cities as good locations. Scranton, Worcester, Trenton, White Plains, NY , Richmond, Gary, ID, Fort Wayne, Rockford (with a real good owner). Oh and don't bother with Baltimore that place is minor league hell

Believe it or not, Gary is ripe for minor league hockey. Fall/Winter minor league hoops won't work here because of high school basketball (among other distractions). Friday nights, the night most high school games are played, were never a good draw for the Steelheads. Rockford is already a hockey town. It's dead for fall/winter minor league basketball in Rockford because the city owns the Ice Hogs hockey team indirectly. They're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by allowing a sports franchise to compete directly with their interests.

[Chuck the Writer]

Portions of Slap Shot were filmed in Syracuse, along with Johnstown. I am not sure if any of it was filmed in Utica. No Albany team is mentioned in Slap Shot.

It's 94 miles from downtown Utica to downtown Albany, according to Mapquest.

The scene where the Chiefs play a road game in Peterborough is filmed at the Utica Memorial Auditorium (it's the scene where the Hanson Brothers go into the stands to fight a fan).

Albany is referenced in the second Slap Shot film as the opponent completely destroying the Charlestown Chiefs (the Hansons are still in the lineup).

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

There is zero reason for the league to sit out this year...not sure where that is coming from, except from a place of total "unknowing." There are probably 6 solid teams, with 3 or 4 on the fence. With the right league protocols in place, there could be 8 solid teams. All 8 of those teams are many steps above any remaining ABA team. However, the other 5 from last year...not so much. This all assumes no expansion. Yep, the league has issues to work through (and I have complaints), but it is a far cry from the ABA or IBL....very far.

If by now you think I'm coming from a place of total unknowing, then so be it. The PBL has a history now and I have reason to believe what A1 is saying is quite accurate. What he is saying aligns well with PBL history. Pie-in-the-sky, IMO. If the PBL wants to accomplish even half of their objectives, then they need to sit out and do it in a controlled fashion. That's more time than the off-season allows. It's not going to happen though and we're going to see a repeat of seasons one and two.

BTW, why so many comparisons to the ABA and IBL??? The bar needs to be raised.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

I don't normally comment on these issues regarding promotions, sales, advertising, attendance, etc.. I usually leave that for my friend ken steelheads. But I will say that it would seem that for any franchise to work, you have to give it time, meaning three years. So a potential owner needs to be prepared to lose money for three years right from the beginning. With that understanding you would then try and put a good respectable product of players, good young men who do good work of community service, so to introduce your team to the town, that would include going to schools talking to schools kids, even visiting senior facilities, and demonstrating that they care about the community that they want to support them.


Oh, you know about the general three-year rule also?!? I didn't think I was going crazy. It seems to be a foreign concept to some.

Nowadays, everything is rush rush though. My understanding is that there were a few first year franchises in the ABA this season that played their games and drew crowds. Great franchises. Great ownership groups for the PBL! That's the outcry...but how do people know this without the test of time???

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

I've been reading these posts, many of them good. But mine has to do with getting fans in the seats. Chances are better that a good product on the court will increase that. But my experience of going to Xplosion and Riverhounds games, has taught me that a better chance of bringing them out is having promotional nights and handing out free souvenirs from sponsors at the gates as they enter. Everyone loves free stuff, even if a diehard supporter is willing to pay at the concession stand. Some may argue with me on this, but I've seen the difference first hand. When the local teams stopped doing it, the crowds got smaller.

I'll give you kudos too. Of course, one of my favorite teams is the Gary Railcats baseball team. The best attended nights are fireworks nights and souvenir giveaway nights...but not just ANY giveaway will do. Fans don't come out for plastic keychain giveaway night, but they line-up hours before game time for beach towel giveaway night. Also, the league has to be organized enough to get the schedule out well in advance. That way the team can get their sponsor giveaway schedule out in plenty of time. Some fans purchase their limited season ticket packages soley based on the fireworks nights and giveaway schedule.

The problem is cause and effect though. These teams are too broke (and I believe the league is getting that way too) to attract high-end businesses to sponsor giveaways while the effect is teams become broker because they can't attract more paying customers with absent sponsored giveaways.

[CHris902]

Oh, you know about the general three-year rule also?!? I didn't think I was going crazy. It seems to be a foreign concept to some.

Nowadays, everything is rush rush though. My understanding is that there were a few first year franchises in the ABA this season that played their games and drew crowds. Great franchises. Great ownership groups for the PBL! That's the outcry...but how do people know this without the test of time???
NSF can clarify, but I think you two are talking about two different things.

Your three year rule seems to be that outside observers can only judge a team as being stable based on three years of completing seasons and paying bills.

What I believe NSF is saying is that owners of minor league teams should be prepared to lose money for the first three years while they market their team, invest in capital and build expertise.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

NSF can clarify, but I think you two are talking about two different things.

Your three year rule seems to be that outside observers can only judge a team as being stable based on three years of completing seasons and paying bills.

What I believe NSF is saying is that owners of minor league teams should be prepared to lose money for the first three years while they market their team, invest in capital and build expertise.

It's not just about outside observers observing a team for at least three years. It's also about doing the things you just mentioned (and more). If you're doing those things then obviously you're completing seasons and paying bills as a result. There can't be one without the other.

As a general rule, if a team isn't prepared to lose cash (conducting business as an actual basketball franchise) their initial three seasons then they are bound to go three and out, two and out, or in many cases--one and out. Otherwise, they've passed the test of time. The three year rule.

...and oh, by the way. It's not MY rule. It's just something I basically agree with. What I don't agree with is singing praises about practically unknown organizations.

[LightningMan]

...and oh, by the way. It's not MY rule.
As far as these boards are concerned, yes, it is.

[bectond]

Remember the Bakersfield Jam? Last year they spent 2 mil on a state of the art practice facility. Then ceased operations 9 months later due to losses totaling more than 1 mil. (the Jam were the last remaining ABA franchise that moved on to an established league). The rest of the ex-ABA teams are all in the PBL attempting to reinvent Minor League Basketball. This is what causes the comparisions with the ABA. Most non ex-ABA owners don't organize Asian touring teams or build 2 mil practice courts.

I do not believe in the 3 year rule, it's John the Baptist even states that the baseball team in his city has never lost money and it has been healthy since day 1. I believe in the regional ground travel rule. Leagues that fly/die. We can trust leagues that bus.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

As far as these boards are concerned, yes, it is.

Actually, no it isn't. It's a general criteria from before your time on these boards. Just a rule of thumb...and with all due respect. It's common sense. I must admit though, times have changed (for the worse, IMO). There's so much mediocrity out there that merely holding on by a thread is being mistaken for excellence.

[Alumni96]

Actually, no it isn't. It's a general criteria from before your time on these boards. Just a rule of thumb...and with all due respect. It's common sense. I must admit though, times have changed (for the worse, IMO). There's so much mediocrity out there that merely holding on by a thread is being mistaken for excellence.

I read these boards every day and I don't recall anyone using the word excellence in conjunction with the PBL. The PBL is an improvement on the ABA which should in no way be construed as excellence. There is no excellence in minor league basketball. There is live and defunct. That's it.

[misenern]

Actually, no it isn't. It's a general criteria from before your time on these boards. Just a rule of thumb...and with all due respect. It's common sense. I must admit though, times have changed (for the worse, IMO). There's so much mediocrity out there that merely holding on by a thread is being mistaken for excellence.

These boards are archived. I asked you before to show us newbies where these words of wisdom came from. You couldn't/wouldn't. Either way, just because it was posted on a message board years ago doesn't make it a good rule. Show us some real proof or everyone will continue to regard it as silly.

All I see is an arbitrary "criteria" that ignores logic and factors actually contribute to a successful/stable team. When I look at the facts it's just a silly rule that apparently only applies when you want it to. Show me anything that suggests this rule isn't crap pulled from thin air. The fact you continually have to make exceptions to this "rule" shows me that it's a bad rule. The facts are that Maywood, Battle Creek and Beijing past your "rule." Great teams, right?

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

These boards are archived. I asked you before to show us newbies where these words of wisdom came from. You couldn't/wouldn't. Either way, just because it was posted on a message board years ago doesn't make it a good rule. Show us some real proof or everyone will continue to regard it as silly.

All I see is an arbitrary "criteria" that ignores logic and factors actually contribute to a successful/stable team. When I look at the facts it's just a silly rule that apparently only applies when you want it to. Show me anything that suggests this rule isn't crap pulled from thin air. The fact you continually have to make exceptions to this "rule" shows me that it's a bad rule. The facts are that Maywood, Battle Creek and Beijing past your "rule." Great teams, right?

Actually, what we're currently seeing is the third or fourth version of the OSC message boards. Not all posts carried over from version to version. Even if the posts I mentioned are in THIS version, I'm far too lazy to do a search for you. It isn't that important to me. What you see as silly, I simply view as common sense. That's where we differ.

By the way, who is this us and everyone I hear so much about?!?

[South Atlantic]

I agree with Ken on the three-year rule...to an extent.

It takes a minor league basketball team three-years to cement their place into a community. Problem is (and we know this to be 90% of the time), teams rarely make it that far without burning somebody, business, players, front office staff, etc. So by making it three years, it doesnt automatically place you on a pedestal.

On the flip side, if a league starts up, and continues to let teams slide in under certain circumstances, well that is a flop on the league. Obviously not every team will come out of the 'womb' three years old. But if you set guidelines (i.e. stadium/arena requirements, cash in the bank, due diligence), then stay within it. That would avoid many teams downfall...don't let them in the league in the first place.

And if you decide to let teams in that are shaky, then quit crying that they make the league look bad! Don't make decisions and then change them mid-stream...and if you do, prepare for the consequences.

Montreal and Mid Michigan both fold during the year...for two differently presented reasons. Montreal had money issues (according to the league website) that were documented prior to joining the stinking league. Philosophical differences (using wording from the press release) was the reason for Mid Michigan to break away. Michigan joined when? September/October? Whether or not that team could have made it is irrelevant. Not many teams do well with such little time to promote, sell, promote, sell, (follow the pattern), etc. They joined two months before the season...duh!

See the three year rule would have done wonders for teams like that. But on the flip side, they don't get to year three without year one. Understanding that argument, teams that don't have proper court dimensions or play in a dark middle school setting, well it goes back to not allowing the question marks in. Problem is, there aren't enough real leagues that allow teams to slowly build up credibility and then make the move up, if and when ready.

The WBA here in the Southeast is pathetic. Serioulsy, we sent a few players to a team that have already returned back because of lack of follow-through and commitment in terms of contract. It had the potential to be something well needed in terms of a regionalized league back in 2003 (I believe that was the inaugural season that my Raleigh Knights played in).

Now to get off topic for a slight moment...regionalize the leagues. There are opportunities for leagues (similar to regional leagues in Germany, the ones where players play for extremely little but are still considered professional) that could use lighter travel, weekend only games, etc. The Northeast could still be under the PBL banner. I could see the midwest having a regional league if the requirements and owners agreed to being simply a developmental league. Not one that will compete for the NBA (PBL dreams). But if ego and big balls stopped the WBA from developing, maybe all leagues are destined for the graveyard. Ego has killed the ABA, slowly killing/slowing the PBL's development. Who knows.

Sorry for the rant and rave.

[LightningMan]

Actually, no it isn't.
My proof it is: three people say it's yours.

Your proof it isn't?

[LightningMan]

By the way, who is this us and everyone I hear so much about?!?
Us in this instance are the people who believe the rule is your rule and everyone is, well, everyone.

[LightningMan]

So by making it three years, it doesn't automatically place you on a pedestal.
So the three year rule is a guideline, not a rule, and is, in fact arbitrary, which means you also agree with us.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

My proof it is: three people say it's yours.

Your proof it isn't?

Okay, fair enough. If it's that important to you then I'll take credit for it. :roll:

[misenern]

Okay. So in summary, it's a "rule of thumb", both overly simplistic and not particularly accurate.

[bectond]

The PBL needs to study the Nats, they come on TV every day and I or no one else I know ever watches(unless they are playing the O's in an inter-league game). Nobody alive cares about this invisible team and yet they survived the three year rule.

The Mid-Michigan, Chicago and Augusta's of the world should study the Nats to determine how a team can survive in a market while facing public apathy.

I'm sure no one in Augusta cares about the Groove either, most people in that town feel the Groove are some kind of joke (just like we feel about the Nats), but for some odd reason the Groove can't survive in Atlanta or Augusta. Maybe it's the lack of heating , no running water and towels that don't flush. Maybe it was the mismatched jerseys, 4 man rosters or the anti-rapper lobby that doomed the Krunk/Groove.

Why didn't Mid-Michigan sign Master P or Obie Trice to sell more tickets? Or bring Kid Rock in as a co-owner?

Why doesn't Chicago embrace the ex-con population?

[DazedAndAmused]

The PBL needs to study the Nats, they come on TV every day and I or no one else I know ever watches(unless they are playing the O's in an inter-league game). Nobody alive cares about this invisible team and yet they survived the three year rule.

The Mid-Michigan, Chicago and Augusta's of the world should study the Nats to determine how a team can survive in a market while facing public apathy.

I'm sure no one in Augusta cares about the Groove either, most people in that town feel the Groove are some kind of joke (just like we feel about the Nats), but for some odd reason the Groove can't survive in Atlanta or Augusta. Maybe it's the lack of heating , no running water and towels that don't flush. Maybe it was the mismatched jerseys, 4 man rosters or the anti-rapper lobby that doomed the Krunk/Groove.

Why didn't Mid-Michigan sign Master P or Obie Trice to sell more tickets? Or bring Kid Rock in as a co-owner?

Why doesn't Chicago embrace the ex-con population?

Bectond, too funny tonight. I wish I wrote this post. The common theme in minor league ball (all leagues) seems to be these days:

1. I don't have two nickels to my name but I think I can have have a CBA, ABA, PBL or IBL team and be successful.
2. I am willing to drop in 7 figures per year to put 2000 people into a 15k arena and fold 1 to 3 yrs later in the dleague.
3. (and a distant 3rd), i am willing to drop 100s of ks in every year to win in my league of teams with huge disparities in $ (eg, CBA and PBL)

..maybe I'll just keep watching college ball.

[bectond]

The worse part of it was that the issues were not the Crazy Drunks fault. The school failed to meet it's financial obligations which resulted in the third world conditions at Crazy Drunk Arena. Remember when the Sun Kings coach got pissed because his team had to wash their azzes in the Gatoraid cooler after the game. Did anybody find out why the custodian placed the towels in the toilets, or why fans took dumps and leaks on top of those towels?(The Krunk are nasty too for not providing any bathroom tissue) On second thought maybe the fans used towels because the Crazy Drunks did not provide bathroom tissue and the custodians at Morris Brown College have been getting a bum rap all these years.
When they said that gym was rocking they were not talking about the crowds.

I don't think the Crazy Drunk owners did enough market research prior to buying the team from the "Gonna make you sweet" dude. But they were smart enough to move the team out of Crazy Drunk Arena. That place was down right nasty, it to on par with that mildew infested ho house the Takers caught TB in. To be honest with you, I blame the media for not covering these franchises, I can't believe the local press in Atlanta never covered the Krunk solely based on health issues alone. Nor can I believe the Augusta press never did an expo on the wild and nasty history of the Crazy Drunk/Groove. If they had maybe that motel owner would have never entered into an agreement with guys that could not provide 4 dudes with jerseys. ( Why were the uniforms not apart of the purchase agreement?) I'm pulling for the Groove to stick it out for two more seasons so they can pass Kens three year rule and be classified as a TOP NOTCH franchise. Maybe they can down grade from a High School to a middle school gym. This type of move could save them 2K per year or 25% of their yearly budget. They could educate kid about the dangers of e-coli and mildew and produce one of those late night info-cast on how to buy a sports franchise with no money down.

[utahstarsticketholder]

Okay here goes....It is not the Three Year Rule...It is an observation that most small business ventures do not survive three years.
Why?
Undercapitalization
Poor Product
Poor Marketing
Criminal Activity
Competition
Poor Research
Bad Business Planning
Bad Business Decisions
However...many small businesses can do everything right and still fail. The majority of the time it is due to over optimistic projections. Often times in their business plans to garner a business loan.
In these bad economic times, business plans will be torn apart to find any failings. Banks are not making loans to even semi risky applicants.
jack
BTW MY brother in law started a Yogurt Store in the 90's - three years later he closed, made money the first two years then a national chain opened less then two miles away. The competition was such he saw his business decline steadily over six months , funded the next six month out of his pocket. Then decided to cut his losses. TCBY killed Yum Yum Yogurt. But that is the free market. just sayn'

[utahstarsticketholder]

Meanwhile back to the subject....The PBL Meetings...
If capital from China can help support the PBL in these lean times great
So why would China want to see PBL games? For the same reason I watch Strongest Man once in a while, time waster. Networks need content, even poor content keeps the interest of some viewers.
Adding team is always risky, but the risk should be measured.
A security bond to indemnify the league is a must.
Good luck PBL hope you can save minor league basketball.
jack

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

http://www.battlecreekenquirer.com/article/20090601/SPORTS/906010313/1006/PBL+s+first+television+broadcast+in+china+is+a+hug e+success

PBL Chairman of the Board, Dr. Sev Hrywnak remarked, "The early household viewing numbers we have been told were slightly less than an NBA rebroadcast. This is truly a big number considering the household coverage of CSPN is over 500 million households."

...and what would that truly big number be?

"The numbers are even more impressive considering there was little promotion in China of the broadcast," added PBL CEO Tom Doyle. "We are pleased to be moving forward with a deal to broadcast at least twenty games next season."

...and what would those impressive numbers be?

Judging by Doc and Doyle's remarks, they don't know what the numbers are either. However, they're pleased to move forward with this deal. Huh?!?

[a1sports]

Good question Ken.. Im assuming that China keeps statistics/ratings on TV viewership as the rest of the world does.

But I will check !!!!

I dont think those two guys would make a statement like that about ratings, Keep in mind they try very hard NOT to be like Joe of the ABA and make things up like him.

[sonnie20]

Let me see Joe....Joe.....Joe......Joe, who cares about Joe? Does he even blog on this page? I saw the Article in the Battle Creek paper and wonder who put it in there, seems like alot of hoopla to me (get it). But has anybody seen any real proof or numbers. Noy yet!!!!

[LightningMan]

Let me see. Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, who cares about Joe? Does he even blog on this page?
First of all, no one has a blog here. A blog is something different. Next, everyone who cares about minor league basketball should care at least a little about Joe.

Joe Newman and the ABA have created a hostile market for minor league basketball in a climate where operating is already tougher than one would want. Joe Newman appears to actively seek the failure of this league (the PBL), apparently because so many of the teams abandoned his league for this one. Joe Newman's practices cause potential sponsors and previously burned markets where this league is trying to gain entry to distrust this league.

Joe Newman isn't a part of the PBL, but he is a germane subject, although probably not to the degree that some talk about him.

[sonnie20]

Lightningman, All I'm saying is anyone can say anything but has any one seen the numbers. I don't know Joe Newman and don't really care to but lets move on to some facts here not the sos.

[LightningMan]

LightningMan, All I'm saying is anyone can say anything, but has anyone seen the numbers?
I don't know. I know I haven't.

I don't know Joe Newman and don't really care to...
You should for the reasons I stated.

...but let's move on to some facts here, not the SOS.
As soon as someone has some facts, we'll be glad to.

[Irving Thomas]

Anyone heard of a PBL All Stars Team touring Europe? Just todey they played theyr first game in Italy versus the National Team (PBL were swept away). GM of the operation is Roosevelt Bouie and coach is Wendell Alexis..

[preeths]

Anyone heard of a PBL All Stars Team touring Europe? Just todey they played theyr first game in Italy versus the National Team (PBL were swept away). GM of the operation is Roosevelt Bouie and coach is Wendell Alexis..

According to the PBL, this is not a sanctioned league effort:
http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3840302

[zeke41]

That's one heck of a response!

[CHris902]

Yikes! That is a harsh (but justified) response. It's safe to say that Bouie will not be allowed to work for PBL teams in the foreseeable future.

USbasket has the seven man roster listed. (http://www.usbasket.com/PBL/basketball.asp?NewsID=161900) It has one PBL player on it - Kyle Cuffe from the Stampede.

So Doyle is commissioner now? Wasn't John Sally or someone supposed to be commish?

[LightningMan]

Yikes! That is a harsh (but justified) response. It's safe to say that Bouie will not be allowed to work for PBL teams in the foreseeable future.

USbasket has the seven man roster listed. (http://www.usbasket.com/PBL/basketball.asp?NewsID=161900) It has one PBL player on it - Kyle Cuffe from the Stampede.

So Doyle is commissioner now? Wasn't John Sally or someone supposed to be commish?
Kenny Smith, IIRC.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

...this unauthorized use of the PBL name has caused immense damage to the reputation of our league and most assuredly action will be taken against the individuals who are responsible for this blatant unlawful act.

...and what of the Augusta franchise blatantly writing $15,000 in bad checks to a local hotel?!? Not a peep from the league. Does a criminal act like that cause immense damage to the reputation of the league as well?!?

It's all about ego.

[Irving Thomas]

Per uno spiacevole errore abbiamo indicato la squadra gestita da Roosevelt Bouie, che giovedì 11 giugno ha giocato contro la Nazionale italiana, come una squadra della Premier Basket League. Non è così. La squadra impegnata nel Torneo di Porto San Giorgio è la New Balance All Star.

Ce ne scusiamo con gli interessati e i nostri lettori.

Ufficio Stampa Fip


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We made a mistake indicating the team Roosevelt Bouie presented Thursday June 11, as Premier Basketball League team.
This is not correct. The team partecipating in the Tourneament in Porto San Giorgio is the New Balance All Star.

We are sorry for any problems for interested parties and readers.

Italian Basketball Federation Press Office




http://www.fip.it/NewsDettaglio.asp?IDNews=1712

[Irving Thomas]

Boxscore from Game 1 at Porto San Giorgio (Italy) Tournament:
ITALIA-NEW BALANCE ALL STAR 89-44 (19-5, 44-18, 64-35)
Italia. Cinciarini D 10 (3/4), Cinciarini A 6 (1/1, 0/1), Cittadini 11 (4/4), Allegretti 8 (2/3, 2/2), Aradori 18 (4/6, 3/7), Crosariol 3 (1/2), D’Ercole (0/1 da tre), Bolzonella 14 (4/5, 2/3), Sacchetti (0/1 da tre), Rinaldi 2 (0/1), Cerella 8 (3/5, 0/1), Canavesi 9 (3/5, 0/1). Allenatore Carlo Recalcati.
NB. Burkes 4 (1/5, 0/2), Mitchell 14 (3/7, 2/7), Peters 3 (0/3, 1/4), Brucculeri 11 (3/5, 1/8), Urbutis 8 (3/5, 0/1), Clay 2 (0/3), Cuffe 2 (1/5), Diallo (0/2). Allenatore Wendell Alexis.
Arbitri: Alessandro Martolini, Renato Giovanrosa, Federico Di Francesco.
Tiri: T2: Ita 23/33, NB 11/35; T3: Ita 7/23, NB 4/22; TL: Ita 22/30; NB 10/15. Rimbalzi: Ita 37 (Crosariol 9), NB 36 (Urbutis 9). Assist: Ita 3.
Parziali: 5‘ 9-2, 15’ 35-12, 25’ 58-25, 35’ 80-35

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

more info...

1. Chinese lady that manages a hedge fund spoke about going to china is a smart move because china is flush with cash and they want to see basketball..pick up sponsors like mcdonalds. etc etc
2. Deposits will be required this season. Also teams were warned, if you can play tell us now and take a year off or screw up and get sued. A team from last year that drpped out is being sued by league for submitting false information on financial forms.
3. A centralized worker comp program for all teams, and surgeries will be done is chicago for all teams
4. Albany may be coming this year. no word yet. Albany coach at meeting
5. A Las Vegas travelling team may be coming
6. Scranton not coming till 2011 and Omaha in 2011
7. Head of Canadian NAtional BAsketball Federation was there.
8. Lots of talk about how Joe has ruined minor leasgue basketball in many cities. and how to explain to sponsors that ABA doesnt count as a pro league
9.TAlk about PBL sponosring a car in the LEmans race that will be driven by Patrick Demsey of Greys anatomy. Took months to clear the deal( joe must have gotten wind of this deal and he ran to get a 10 cent decal on a NASCAR)
10. Some d league owners contacted PBL about franchises.

Regarding President Obama's visit to China, what do people REALLY know about China? It's still a communist country and censorship is rampant.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/obama

Speaking in the nation that has the world's largest population of Internet users and also some of the world's tightest limits over what people can see online, Obama said there's nothing to fear from tough criticism of political leaders and unfettered access to Internet information.

I still wonder if the Chinese officials released any actual figures and if there is still a China deal.

[Juniper]

With all the money in China, how much did the PBL make for televising the Championship game there?

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

...and what are the chances of China making the effort to broadcast PBL games without Chinese nationalists on PBL teams?

Chinese censors block Obama's call to free the Web (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091116/ap_on_re_as/as_obama_china_internet)

China has the world's most extensive system of Web monitoring and censorship and has issued numerous regulations in response to the rise of blogging and other trends. But the Web remains far more open than the country's tightly controlled print and television media, which is the only source of news for the vast majority of Chinese.

China's web is far more open than China's television media???

[CHris902]

(I assume you mean Chinese nationals rather than nationalists?)

China is not a Communist state at this point. Much like in America, if there is money to be made showing basketball games then the games will be shown so that profit can be made. They show a ton of NBA games in China even when the the two (three?) Chinese nationals playing in the NBA aren't on the court. If they can generate more in revenue than it costs to show PBL games then the TV stations will.

Modern China is definitely a strange place politically but I don't really know how its political situation is directly related to the PBL broadcasting games there and making money by doing it.

That said, I am do agree with your earlier argument that for something that the PBL rescheduled a championship game for, they sure have been vague about the actual broadcast. I also think it's sort of funny that after making a big deal about sending a PBL touring team (The Nighthawks) over to China we never actually heard anything or saw a single picture from the tour.

[Juniper]

How many games did the Knighthawks play last year? I thought they were coming back to the league this year. I guess they are back, they just changed the name. Why?

[psbf]

According to an online article I read, the Knighthawks moved because of a lack of attendence to another area(Rockford?) before disbanding and changing their name to the new Maryland team.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

(I assume you mean Chinese nationals rather than nationalists?)

China is not a Communist state at this point. Much like in America, if there is money to be made showing basketball games then the games will be shown so that profit can be made. They show a ton of NBA games in China even when the the two (three?) Chinese nationals playing in the NBA aren't on the court. If they can generate more in revenue than it costs to show PBL games then the TV stations will.

Modern China is definitely a strange place politically but I don't really know how its political situation is directly related to the PBL broadcasting games there and making money by doing it.

That said, I am do agree with your earlier argument that for something that the PBL rescheduled a championship game for, they sure have been vague about the actual broadcast. I also think it's sort of funny that after making a big deal about sending a PBL touring team (The Nighthawks) over to China we never actually heard anything or saw a single picture from the tour.

Yes, I meant Nationals. People like Yao are Nationals. People's (Republic?) like Mao were Nationalists. 8)

Hmmmm. I don't agree with your take on China and America though. I think China is as communist as ever and will employ tanks and slave labor to maintain the status quo. Although I shouldn't complain about China's slave labor. I take advantage of it every time I shop at Wal*Mart.

Okay, the Chinese broadcast a ton of NBA games, but there ARE two or three Chinese Nationals in the league...somewhere. Would they broadcast games without Chinese nationals, even if it was profitable to do so? If you say yes, do you know this with reasonable certainty? Everything is political everywhere and Nationalist China is still a closed society in relation to North America. Maybe that's why the PBL is so vague about the actual Championship game broadcast. They probably don't know much beyond the broadcast being made available to the masses.

[CHris902]

I am not arguing that China is a liberal democratic state - it's certainly illiberal, but it is at best a degenerate workers state, not a communist or even socialist state. (I am not entirely convinced that it ever was a socialist state). Capitalism (even if it is some form of state capitalism) is firmly entrenched in China now days, even if it is politically still a dictatorship (and arguably a totatlitarian regime).

I think that the NBA would still be on TV in China even without any Chinese players. Had Yao not entered the league (followed with hosting the Olympics fairly shortly afterwards) I don't think that it would be as popular, but if Yao, Chairman Yi and the former ABA player all left the league for Europe in the next two years I still think the NBA would be huge there three years and ten years from now. The horse is out of the barn and so long as Stern, Nike and everyone else are willing to play by China's rules in exchange for access to that market we will see the NBA and basketball in general getting a huge amount of play there.

The challenge for the PBL is to turn interest in basketball into interest and profit for the PBL. Basketball is big in the US - but 99.9% of even serious NBA fans have never heard of the PBL (most probably only have a passing familiarity with the D-league). I think that the PBL's ability to gain credibility and profit in the Chinese market is reliant on getting some credibility in the US and stabilizing the league.

Let's face it: it doesn't actually matter how much the PBL knows about the league being broadcast in China so long as it gets paid a healthy sum of money after it turns the tapes over to state television. I think that what you object to (and I agree with) is that after the amount sacrificed to allegedly get it broadcast, we know nothing more than the fact that it was broadcast on TV. We have heard nothing concrete about renewal of the contract, additional payments, or any other attempts to exploit the Chinese market. Given how important China seems to be to the PBL brass you would think we'd be hearing news about these things.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

How many games did the Knighthawks play last year? I thought they were coming back to the league this year. I guess they are back, they just changed the name. Why?

All good questions. I remember that the Nighthawks were supposed to return to a brand new professional venue. I guess when that didn't happen that put the kibosh on the team.

According to an online article I read, the Knighthawks moved because of a lack of attendence to another area(Rockford?) before disbanding and changing their name to the new Maryland team.

Rockford??? As in Illinois or ROCKVILLE, as in Maryland???

If you do actually mean Rockford, then a fall/winter basketball team will never get good dates in Rockford. The city owns the hockey franchise and isn't about to work against its own interests.

[LightningMan]

Rockford??? As in Illinois or ROCKVILLE, as in Maryland???
Rockville. He's talking about the GreenHawks.

[psbf]

Yes, thanks LM. They never left Maryland.

[nksports]

I think China is as communist as ever ...

Maybe this will help you:

"You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU...WILL...ATONE!
"What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state, Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that . . . perfect world . . . in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel."

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

nksports,
Great quote from a great movie. However, when Beale's message (the PBL in this case) became stale then the network (China's regime) cancelled Howard Beale...on a rather permanent basis. The network doesn't play fair, nor is it accountable. The PBL was over its head from word one.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

That quote from Network and my suspicions about China were too deep for me in one day. Therefore, I'm returning to my fluff roots:

Dude, you've got all that money and a big new contract. You can have any woman you want. One with REAL buttocks.
http://l.yimg.com/k/im_siggzEscXtYqFGf2IULnbQqnPQ---y626-x495-q75-n0/omg/us/img/46/94/1986127280_12782979295.jpg

Same with you, guy.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3450069436_2129d174be.jpg

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

What did the hedge fund lady from China say again? What was her professional sports background again?
http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=14469&page=9

I can't get enough of this.
Information coming in , bits at a time.

1. Augusta out.
2. Mid michigan out
3. Chicago taking a year off



BIG NEWS at meeting was : PBL had there championship game televised in China, May 13, 2009 to 500 million homes. Have working realtionship with China TV to broadcast PBL games.

more to come......as I get the info

Except someone forgot to tell the Chinese there was a relationship to broadcast PBL games. The title of this thread should be, PBL China deal FALLS through.

[preeths]

Are these two different deals? The Clemente lawsuit doesn't say anything about television.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Very good question. If the lawsuit is for yet another deal then this lady has not followed through on anything.

Clarifying some info that I received.

1. The hedge fund woman is not chinese but philippino and she resides half the year in china. Google her name and its very impressive: Lilia Clemente
2. The broadcast deal involves 20 games to be televised in china with the PBL selling the sponsorship.
3. The producers and crew from Greys Anatomy were at the meeting.
4. A woman who does National Sponsorship deals was there.
5. A demostartion of a virtual studio was shown from LA that would be used for PBL pre game and post game show and a weekly wrap up.
6. Satellite radio programer was there but didnt speak.
7. The CEO of Canadain Basketball Federation was there. Talk was about placing a Canadian travel team in the PBL. Discussed but no knowledge of when this would happen.

Based on what I have heard so far I disagree with above post that this is pie in the sky...You must mean ABA when you say that, Joe is full of BS, at least these guys produce and are working toward a goal that would help all owners not like Joe does to help only himself. AND yes I think it was smart to mention how to distance your self from the ABA and show your the respectable league and not the con mans league. DOes the league need to get better owneship, yes they do, but talking about reducing teams is the first step. Asking for 100K letter of credit is old school and would not be smart in these economic times. If the PBL has the deep pockets to still be around then they are doing some things right. But I guess you can say the ABA is also still around and that league does nothing right......, well at least Joe makes money.

A1 may not be the official spokesperson of the PBL, but obviously he's being fed information.

[preeths]

The reason I asked is because apparently the PBL championship aired in China, so I don't think the Clemente deal has anything to do with TV.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Yes, upon further reading it doesn't seem like Lilia Clemente was involved with TV. That was someone else's boo boo. The broadcast deal for 20 additional games after the Championship game didn't happen. Another China deal gone awry, regardless of the person responsible. Wasn't that the purpose (and cost) for broadcasting in China? Exposure, expansion, and extra revenue for the PBL?