Why so Scared!!!!

[sonnie20]

I don't know why they were so scared to come to Battle Creek that they had to bribe everyone owners on down to play this game. I would like to commend the players and coaches that weren't bribed by the league if you want to call it that. They bribed our owners told them they would fine them ten thousand dollars if we didn't play. So they begged and gave pep talks and ultimatly paid them off so it would look legit. What a joke if I were the owners of the Knights I would have sued this farce of a league for money lost to Battle Creek. Also Coach T should be the coach of the year when our players didn't even get half the sallary that Rochester does and we had the best record, he deserves it. All I can say is everone should boycott this sham of a league the PBSL. because it is exactly that a bunch of BS.

[not so fast]

All I know is, this is the most criticism that the pbl has taken since it has started. I am not sure if they realize how angry this makes people. It has upset old posters here and now created new posters just because of the injustice they feel have happened.

For me, I have mixed emotions about this, I mean i know players on the rochester team, and they were treated great by the ownership. I have talked with coach baker and he has always been respectful.

I don't know how long it will be before the waters have calmed with this storm, but the image of the league has taken a blow. People who read this board are many people that are involved with the minorleagues or people who are hard core fans. They do matter.

I hope the league office is not like the republicans were when it came to the state of the economy, (denial) I mean thats what got obama elected. Change is gonna come!

[utahstarsticketholder]

1. BC was not rewarded for their great season, no matter the competition.
2. The PBL will never reveal the reason for the one and done (MY bet is money-duh)
3. I can't see where BC could have beaten the Sharks even over a seven game series.
4. Rebounds win games period.
5. Some have blamed the players for this sad state of affairs, this is unfair.
6. All the players yesterday did their best.
7. No matter what we say here it will never make any of this right to some.
8. Being a poor sport, even when wronged,does not bolster your side of an arguement.
9. The game was played on the court by the players not the owners.
10 A fix in for the backboard? Explain how a broken backboard benefits either team.

Would have like to have seen a three games series. The coverage was okay but the announcing was minor league.
BC fans, your team had a great year, despite your anger and fustration, know that the majority of posters here support you. Continue to support your team and good luck in the future.
Just sayin, jack.

[Juniper]

These kind of situation make you wonder what is right in this world. This is a development league. These players are still our young people. What is the lesson that was learned here. First of all, if you make a mistake, do what ever you can do to make it right no matter what? Bribe, Pressue and Pay Off. What are we saying to our youth. Even though it is not correct, if the money is right, go ahead and do it. We have no idea how much work players and coaches put into this. We only see them during the season. They are working there butts off in the off season, to get ready for the next season. Battle Creek worked hard to achive the home court advantage. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN HONORED. We all know Championship are won on the home court. With all of there players and there fine coach, BC had more then a chance to win the title. Anybody that say's that the leagues choice was ok because it was a business choice, I feel is wrong. In my business, if you make a mistake, you have to eat that mistake no matter what it is. Learn from it, and make changes so it does not happen again. This has hurt Battle Creek more then it has hurt the league. It looks like to me, Battle Creek has had a nice run in minor league basketball. I have looked at posts on the IBL when they were there, and I see nothing bad about the ownership. (No matter what Ken say's) It looks like they have paid all there bills. Maybe they did not have the highest pay roll, but it looks like they have always paid there players. Perhaps BC had the best BUSINESS model. Look at there player budget, and see how many games they won. (Paying playes and coaches too much put one league out of business. They even had a TV contract. AFL.) To me the Battle Creek ownership are people of integrity, with a fine minor league team. I am willing to bet this will be the last year for the Battle Creek Knights. The men that run this league should be ashamed. I saw the story about the little boy crying because he does not get to see his team anymore as the league has promised. The hell with the money and everything else that is superficial. This little boy is the story of minor league sports. Most people can't even go to a pro game. Cost to much. Why don't one of these men that run the league with so much pride, and money fly out to Battle Creek and address there ownership, coaches, players and most important, the little boy and all there other fans. They won't because they really don't care about Battle Creek, and there is no way they could face that little boy. They were wrong. Then we wonder why our youth have a hard time respecting adults. When it comes to developing young people, I feel the league is teaching the wrong lesson. Maybe they should get out of this business, cause I really don't think they understand what business they are in.

[bdaly]

1. BC was not rewarded for their great season, no matter the competition.
2. The PBL will never reveal the reason for the one and done (MY bet is money-duh)
3. I can't see where BC could have beaten the Sharks even over a seven game series.
4. Rebounds win games period.
5. Some have blamed the players for this sad state of affairs, this is unfair.
6. All the players yesterday did their best.
7. No matter what we say here it will never make any of this right to some.
8. Being a poor sport, even when wronged,does not bolster your side of an arguement.
9. The game was played on the court by the players not the owners.
10 A fix in for the backboard? Explain how a broken backboard benefits either team.

Great post; I think all of your points hold a lot of water. The decision was wrong, although I don't think BC could have had any success in a series. (Checked out the players that "missed" the game; four of their top five were there, and the other one moved to another league and would have missed the game anyway. It wasn't like depth did Battle Creek in; they didn't match up from opening tip off)

Is it a black eye for the league? Sure. But, in just following Rochester sports, I've seen this multiple times. Once with the Raiders getting a home game instead of Port Huron because they were the better draw, the Rhinos actually offered to buy a home game and had it rejected back in '96, but a later season they were granted one as the lower seed by the USL (for image/money reasons), and the Knighthawks lost a home game two years back (NLL) because of an arena conflict and an unwillingness by the league to move the game for TV reasons. In all these cases, money talked. In all these cases, it was probably the wrong move for "fairness." In all these cases, the leagues survived and in two cases I'd consider them very strong leagues. And, in the case of the Knighthawks, they sucked it up and won on the road.

Wrong decision? Yes. Will this really hurt the PBL and cause players and fans to avoid it? Outside of a few fans in Battle Creek, assuming the PBL returns to the midwest, nope. In fact, it'll be forgotten by 98% of fans in a week or two. Minor league sports aren't life and death to most fans, which explains minor league playoff attendance (until the finals) in most leagues.

[preeths]

Jack and bdaly, two great posts. By any stretch, switching the championship scenario was unfair. As bdaly pointed out, it was not an unprecedented move, though, and obviously made some financial sense. That still doesn't make it right, and the PBL will have to deal with the fallout and decide in the end if it was worth it. I believe they underestimated the amount of negative backlash they'd take on this and hopefully it will be a lesson learned.

This is a black eye for the league, not a sword through the chest.

[DazedAndAmused]

Jack and bdaly, two great posts. By any stretch, switching the championship scenario was unfair. As bdaly pointed out, it was not an unprecedented move, though, and obviously made some financial sense. That still doesn't make it right, and the PBL will have to deal with the fallout and decide in the end if it was worth it. I believe they underestimated the amount of negative backlash they'd take on this and hopefully it will be a lesson learned.

This is a black eye for the league, not a sword through the chest.

I haven't kept up too much this year, except for watching a few playoff games, but I can't help but comment.

What the league did here was clearly a mistake. Why the ramifications were not foreseen, I have no idea. This is more than a black eye right now, but a little PR could make it survivable. If I were the league I would come out with a statement in short order...something to the effect of:

"In retrospect, we too hastily made a decision about the finals. We put too much emphasis on a TV broadcast, that, while we believe was important, did not warrant such a change. For that we apologize, and in light of this mistake, we are formally declaring the Battle Creek Knights Co-PBL Champions. They were not only the regular season champions, but we recognize that they were undefeated at home this year and were not given the chance to compete for the championship on their home court as originally indicated by the league. They will be provided with championship rings and will formally be recognized as champions for the 2009 season, along with Rochester. Fans and sponsors, please thank you for your patience as we continue to try to build a stable and reputable independent minor league."

....then again, nobody appointed me PBL spokesperson. Hopefully they'll come up with something similar.

Regarding the "...of the year" awards, I find them meaningless, tainted in the same fashion as the championship itself. The BC coach clearly deserved the coach of the year award.....based first on his # of wins, which beat everyone else...and then based on his number of wins per dollars spent on players. Rochester probably finishes last in the league based on that metric. (Anyone REALLY understand the disparity in player pay? The league can't allow this to be competitive.)

The direction of this league, which at one point seemed reasonable relative to the surrounding follies, all of a sudden has become very unclear. I hope they turn it around because there are no other viable alternatives at present.

PBL, I have been a fan, even through some mistakes. Please don't let me down. I'll wait to see what happens this summer before I decide to tune in next year.

Congrats to Battle Creek, PBL Champions 2009 (if for nothing else, the two games Rochester forfeited to you.)

[not so fast]

Thank you dazedandamuzed, you just hit a homerun. this sums it up better than anything I have read!


I don't think they have the you know what to make that statement though.

Stay with us here though, we need your voice of reason!

[CHris902]

Jack and bdaly, two great posts. By any stretch, switching the championship scenario was unfair. As bdaly pointed out, it was not an unprecedented move, though, and obviously made some financial sense. That still doesn't make it right, and the PBL will have to deal with the fallout and decide in the end if it was worth it. I believe they underestimated the amount of negative backlash they'd take on this and hopefully it will be a lesson learned.

This is a black eye for the league, not a sword through the chest.
I agree with this and would add two other things:

1) If Halifax had a better season and made the finals against BC and this disaster happened with Halifax playing the role of Rochester this would have been a bad situation. The thing that really compounded this was the fact that the change benefited Rochester. Having a team owner own the league and not having a neutral commissioner or a competitions committee making these decisions is a huge problem.

2) This definitely isn't a sword through the chest, but I see the problem being that this creates a situation where people simply don't know what to make of the PBL after this. It hasn't led me to conclude that the league is a disaster or fixed or doomed but it has created a lot of questions in my mind. The question is going to be how well the league answers these questions in the next year. They're quickly losing the advantage of being new and getting the benefit of the doubt. There needs to be more results coming out of the league in the next 12 months.

[preeths]

I don't want to get into what ifs, but I find it a huge stretch to say Battle Creek would have even made the championship much of a fight. I understand they were missing one of their big guns and some depth but that player would have also missed both games in BC and weren't the Knights outscored by 17 in the first half? I think it's a bit disrespectful to the Rochester players and coaches to call anyone else champs. The real shame, of course, is that we don't get to find out how the two teams would have done in a three-game series which is what the league promised.

I also believe the league should address the situation, but as much as some would like to see something akin to what D&A suggested, I'm not sure it will happen. Instead, maybe the league could indirectly address the situation by spelling out how such situations will be handled in the future. Maybe an owners committee could be set up to hear proposals and vote on them, helping to eliminate the appearance of impropriety.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Instead, maybe the league could indirectly address the situation by spelling out how such situations will be handled in the future. Maybe an owners committee could be set up to hear proposals and vote on them, helping to eliminate the appearance of impropriety.

Or, they could just do what they said they would do in the first place, without changing everything up days prior to their championship game(s).

(I know, the horse is out of the barn, and the barn has burned down - but really at this point anything the league says about its actions comes across as hollow)

[preeths]

I agree with this and would add two other things:

1) If Halifax had a better season and made the finals against BC and this disaster happened with Halifax playing the role of Rochester this would have been a bad situation. The thing that really compounded this was the fact that the change benefited Rochester. Having a team owner own the league and not having a neutral commissioner or a competitions committee making these decisions is a huge problem.

And one that needs to be addressed this offseason even if only to eliminate the appearance of bias. Maybe after looking at the numbers, an ownership committee would have reached the same conclusion the league did. I wouldn't expect fans to be happy with it, and I myself wouldn't be, but it would be easier to accept.

2) This definitely isn't a sword through the chest, but I see the problem being that this creates a situation where people simply don't know what to make of the PBL after this. It hasn't led me to conclude that the league is a disaster or fixed or doomed but it has created a lot of questions in my mind. The question is going to be how well the league answers these questions in the next year. They're quickly losing the advantage of being new and getting the benefit of the doubt. There needs to be more results coming out of the league in the next 12 months.

Yes, and 'results' does not necessarily mean increasing the number of teams.

[preeths]

Or, they could just do what they said they would do in the first place, without changing everything up days prior to their championship game(s).

(I know, the horse is out of the barn, and the barn has burned down - but really at this point anything the league says about its actions comes across as hollow)

That would work, too, but some decisions will still have to be made on the fly, and that's where an ownership committee or neutral commissioner or something of the sort would come in handy.

[not so fast]

Well the problem with the owners meetings is does the owners really have any say? I mean they offers to pay for nearly everything, then tell you whats going to happen. WWF. I am sorry for you pbl hard core fans, and I was a big supporter of this league when it started, but they are going to have to spell out this so called business model plan, something for average people to understand. Because the basketball junkies on this board can't even figure it out.

I mean it clearly looks like a league for rochester. and everyone is here for there purpose.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

That would work, too, but some decisions will still have to be made on the fly, and that's where an ownership committee or neutral commissioner or something of the sort would come in handy.

Very true, but not this decision.

BC played in the same arena all year; so, any shortcomings in terms of "TV production" (which we will use as the official reason, since they said so) were there on opening day.

As recently as April 11, the league still planned a best of three (from the PBL site):
Rochester now advances to their second straight PBL Finals with the number one seed Battle Creek Knights awaiting the defending PBL Champions. Details of the 2009 PBL Championship best-of-three series will be announced shortly.

And in the April 6 release about the BC win:
Battle Creek wins their first round playoff series two games to one and will take on the winner of Saturday’s Manchester/Rochester game in the best of three finals...

The dates of the championship series between Battle Creek and the winner of the Rochester/Manchester game have yet to be determined

They knew on April 6 that BC would host; even if we assume nobody gave it a thought before then - highly unlikely, but if true an even WORSE indictment - the league waited over a week, after Rochester's win (which was rescheduled in a release made the same day as the BC win, quoting "RazorSharks President Orest Hrywnak" as "look[ing] forward to having all the great fans from Rochester come out and support the team on Saturday for the pivotal Game 3 of the PBL Semi-Finals") to change their format.

I guess he did not "look forward to having all the great fans from Battle Creek come out and support the team for the pivotal PBL Finals"

I just don't see how the league recaptures all of the credibility it flushed away here. They won't admit they made a mistake, they will dance around the BC issue by emphasizing that the players were compensated to travel, and any "changes" they announce will be empty promises at this point.

They are in a rough spot here. It's gonna be a long climb out of Newman's bottomless pit-level of trust.

[LightningMan]

...but they are going to have to spell out this so called business model plan, something for average people to understand. Because the basketball junkies on this board can't even figure it out.
It doesn't matter about the business plan. It matters that they didn't do what they said they'd do. Anyone can understand that.

[not so fast]

thats true lightning man, except they justify it by saying its part of a bigger picture business model to success in minorleague basketball.

I am wondering what that is, other than: "it's my ball and you cant play with it, unless i win. (i remember doing that when i was 5).

[DazedAndAmused]

Well the problem with the owners meetings is does the owners really have any say? I mean they offers to pay for nearly everything, then tell you whats going to happen. WWF. I am sorry for you pbl hard core fans, and I was a big supporter of this league when it started, but they are going to have to spell out this so called business model plan, something for average people to understand. Because the basketball junkies on this board can't even figure it out.

I mean it clearly looks like a league for rochester. and everyone is here for there purpose.

I don't think this insignificant: I mean they offer to pay for nearly everything, then tell you whats going to happen.

And, if they are going to pay for everything, reason has it that perhaps the league/rochester (let's be honest, one in the same) do inherently have more authority and maybe even rightly so. I think the owners are at best open to express opinions, but not much more and won't/can't be in the present arrangement. Maybe that's just the trade off owners who want their travel paid for have to make.

But, it still doesn't smell right to many of us, even those who have been genuine proponents or even reasonable critics. (Note, if your sign on starts with A and ends in 1 or starts with K and end in "en", you don't fit in here...we know where you stand on the issues before the issue come up.)

I still say the biggest controversy here is in player salary disparity. The league needs real minimums and maximums and real standards. Until then, this league may be simply Rochester's science project.

Ironically, though I have already proclaimed Battle Creek my PBL champion, their best chance to beat Rochester on the court may have in fact been in a "one game showdown," where they could get hot for a couple of quarters to pull it off. With Rochester's depth and payroll, they're going to win 2 out of 3 against any team in the league 95% of the time. That's not a knock on the rest of the league (in fact kudos to Manchester, Vt, Wilmington, and Augusta all for getting wins against the team with a bigger than Dleague budget during the season), but it does highlight the disparity.

If the league truly wants a whole bunch of Rochesters, they better be prepared to pony up more than travel costs and set some real standards. That's my personal confusion over what this league is trying to be.

There are some solidly run clubs with growing attendance in the PBL, and there are no other real or viable options for them right now (the options are less organized and would cost more), so let's hope the guys at the top are a lot smarter than the rest of us.

[preeths]

Well the problem with the owners meetings is does the owners really have any say? I mean they offers to pay for nearly everything, then tell you whats going to happen. WWF. I am sorry for you pbl hard core fans, and I was a big supporter of this league when it started, but they are going to have to spell out this so called business model plan, something for average people to understand. Because the basketball junkies on this board can't even figure it out.

I mean it clearly looks like a league for rochester. and everyone is here for there purpose.

They don't have to spell out the business plan for the average fan to understand. The average fan doesn't care about the business plan, much less average people, whoever they are. Any ownership committee or neutral commissioner would have to be given real power, the ability to make binding decisions. That goes without saying. Otherwise, we're right back here where we started.

[not so fast]

well i don't know mr. preeths, you being such an important person as site administrator, seems to me you would want to know what the league objective is, certainly potential owners would like to know, certainly agents looking for places to play for there clients would like to know, certainly fans and potential sponsors would like to know, I am sure local media outlets in potential communities would like to know.

How do you sell something to a community if no one really knows what it stands for? If battle creek owners were working on a potential big sponsor, rest assured this tabacle did not help.

[DazedAndAmused]

well i don't know mr. preeths, you being such an important person as site administrator, seems to me you would want to know what they league objective is, certainly potential owners would like to know, certainly agents looking for places to play for there clients would like to know, certainly fans and potential sponsors would like to know, I am sure local media outlets in potential communities would like to know.

How do you sell something to a community if no one really knows what it stands for? If battle creek owners were working on a potential big sponsor, rest assured this tabacle did not help.

I don't hear anyone (including preeths) saying that the situation is anything but "bad" for Battle Creek and its fans and maybe more importantly the sponsors. It sucks and can't be undone at this point. Whether fans need to know the league's business plan or not is irrelevant as long as the games get played when they're supposed to, and in this case they didn't. So again, it sucks.

Basically, the argument by the league would seem to be that the "greater good" was achieved with the finals fiasco. Those of us who aren't all that smart just don't get it I suppose.

I don't hear anyone (aside from a1) defending this move (not even the league really at this point...i suspect they want all of this chatter to go away.) They couldn't even get a competitive game out of it. That may have looked worse in the end to China than simply broadcasting the one game in the series in Rochester. Humans make mistakes. Wise men learn from their mistakes. Time will tell. What are some of these teams going to do in the end? Go back to the ABA? Doubtful. There is no other option.

I personally plan to reassess my thoughts, impressions, and future interest in this league in a couple of months when the dust settles and hopefully something better happens next year. Heck, until I see something else out of the league, there's nothing that tells me they are even coming back for business next year......that might be one explanation for the "hurried finish." No, I have no facts to suggest that is the case...only that is one possible explanation for an odd ending. There are others I'm sure.

[Juniper]

DanzedAndAmused,

Great post on page one. I agree. I still would like for one of them to fly out to Battle Creek and present the trophy to the little boy. That story took my heart. Battle Creek did not even practice for the game Sunday. It is not just the physical part of the game, there is also the mental part of the game. With everything those guys had to deal with, there is no way they were ready for that game. I saw them play down here, and I saw them play at home. That team was great at home, and I really feel they would have won. They refuse to loose at home. I also heard this. This league was supposed to be done with the league the 15 of April. If the league would have followed through with that, BC would have had all there players. The player that went to another job was cleared to stay and play through the 15. The two games I saw, 2 of the players that did not go to Rochester were starters. Look at there box scores. They had a different guy step up almost every game. Rochester did not want to play in BC. There owner was asked during our series with BC, who he would like to play. He said Wilmington, so we can play at home. BC is tough to beat in there place.

[LightningMan]

...Certainly potential owners would like to know. Certainly agents looking for places to play for their clients would like to know. Certainly fans and potential sponsors would like to know. I am sure local media outlets in potential communities would like to know.
Potential owners, agents, potential sponsors, and media outlets can, should, and (if they are worth their salt) will ask the PBL directly. Most fans, the people who buy a hot dog and watch a basketball game and that's the extent of their interest, don't care.

Those of us here may care, but the PBL doesn't owe us anything and we already know the key fact about this incident, which is that they didn't do what they said they were going to do.

I just don't get the fascination with the PBL's business model.

[DazedAndAmused]

DanzedAndAmused,

Great post on page one. I agree. I still would like for one of them to fly out to Battle Creek and present the trophy to the little boy. That story took my heart. Battle Creek did not even practice for the game Sunday. It is not just the physical part of the game, there is also the mental part of the game. With everything those guys had to deal with, there is no way they were ready for that game. I saw them play down here, and I saw them play at home. That team was great at home, and I really feel they would have won. They refuse to loose at home. I also heard this. This league was supposed to be done with the league the 15 of April. If the league would have followed through with that, BC would have had all there players. The player that went to another job was cleared to stay and play through the 15. The two games I saw, 2 of the players that did not go to Rochester were starters. Look at there box scores. They had a different guy step up almost every game. Rochester did not want to play in BC. There owner was asked during our series with BC, who he would like to play. He said Wilmington, so we can play at home. BC is tough to beat in there place.

Well, we'll never know, and that is the sad part. It actually would be nice if the chatter was about the games that should have been played. My opinion was that Rochester was going to be way too much in a 3 game series, no matter where it was played, but I would have been pulling for Battle Creek 100%. Keep in mind that in the way the league is set up $$$$$ will buy you you talent and championships. BC didn't have as much but did MUCH more with what they had. I hope BC is back next year to avenge the situation.

[DazedAndAmused]

Potential owners, agents, potential sponsors, and media outlets can, should, and (if they are worth their salt) will ask the PBL directly. Most fans, the people who buy a hot dog and watch a basketball game and that's the extent of their interest, don't care.

Those of us here may care, but the PBL doesn't owe us anything and we already know the key fact about this incident, which is that they didn't do what they said they were going to do.

I just don't get the fascination with the PBL's business model.

Yeah, I think some got started on the wrong path with this, maybe even by some of my comments. The only thing relevant about the PBL's business model is that it creates a viable league infrastructure for teams to play under. Part of that includes processes for ensuring individual teams are viable and adequately funded. (The league probably gets a D+ at best in that category this year.)

Part of the league's responsibility IMO is also to ensure competitive games and a minimum level of standards. (I give them a C- here.) A more consistent salary structure would go a long way. Fans don't want blow outs and fans like to know their team is playing for something (which you can make the case was taken away from BC.)

Whether the league makes its money off of broadcasting games to China or selling pet rocks with PBL logos on them, who cares....

[preeths]

I'm not exactly sure what some expect to find when digging for this secret information on the PBL's business model. It's a minor league basketball circuit, what do you seriously expect to find? The PBL wants to bring in paying fans and sponsors and is on the lookout for other revenue/exposure opportunities while controlling costs. That's the basic plan for most leagues. Nothing earth-shattering or surprising about any of it. Did the league err in some of its assessments this year? Sure it did. Making a plan and executing it are two different things. Still, the PBL finds itself in the same place it did when the season started as the second best minor basketball league in the country behind the D-League.

[not so fast]

well let me help paint a scenerio. I am the ticket man for battle creek. I convince a good friend to buy a season ticket. He relucantly buys it, starts going to the games and really begins to enjoy the calibur of play.

Then he says, "wow we are in 1st place, this will be great to watch the playoffs" so now he buys playoff tickets, rearanges his schedule for the championship , only to find its been changed, which is contrary to what he thought and was told what would happen.

So I guess he is now just suppose to understand that this is part of the business model of the pbl. that things can change in mid stream.

Lets see someone try and sell him a season ticket next season!!

All i am saying is, every time something happens, that guy a-1sports says this is how its done, because we have a new business model for minorleague. and I guess since he is a top banana for the pbl, i just was wondering if he or they can elaborate on every questionable decision being answered with same reply, "thats why the pbl is here and the cba is gone" . I personally could care less about the business plan, but if the league representative is going to use this as an excuse every time something goes wrong, I was a little curious as to what is was. But hey I will leave it alone.

[utahstarsticketholder]

what were to costs if they had game one in BC, two in Rodchester and if necessary three back in BC? Airfare, the costs of the venue would have been bourne on BC, correct?
Seems the league would be on the two air fare for BC and the Sharks once each unless a game three was needed.
Even if it was 10k or so is this league that broke! I hope not. For those that were there the crowd estimate seems a bit off, on the telly it sure didn't look like 7,100 plus.
I hope that this mess was worth it to the league and team owners. Hey and I don't even have a dog in this fight!
Hope the players in the league get to move forward in their careers or find peace in the future outside of basketball.
Just sayin', jack
BTW Were is A1 these days?

[Juniper]

Not So Fast is right, it is going to be a hard sell for Battle Creek once they start working on next year. Those fans and sponsors were looking for the big stage to. I am sure the BC Sponsors figured the games were going to be on TV, so they could do some advertising. With out the league doing as daszed and amused suggested, let the people in Battle Creek know you are sorry for the mess up, because they owe them that. It is really going to be hard for the sales team in Battle Creek. Then give them what they earned. A share.

[admiral2866]

I would think the extra money that the Pbl paid the Battle Creek Players and Coach would have cover most of it . So I really donot think that was a issue




what were to costs if they had game one in BC, two in Rodchester and if necessary three back in BC? Airfare, the costs of the venue would have been bourne on BC, correct?

[preeths]

well let me help paint a scenerio. I am the ticket man for battle creek. I convince a good friend to buy a season ticket. He relucantly buys it, starts going to the games and really begins to enjoy the calibur of play.

Then he says, "wow we are in 1st place, this will be great to watch the playoffs" so now he buys playoff tickets, rearanges his schedule for the championship , only to find its been changed, which is contrary to what he thought and was told what would happen.

So I guess he is now just suppose to understand that this is part of the business model of the pbl. that things can change in mid stream.

Lets see someone try and sell him a season ticket next season!!

All i am saying is, every time something happens, that guy a-1sports says this is how its done, because we have a new business model for minorleague. and I guess since he is a top banana for the pbl, i just was wondering if he or they can elaborate on every questionable decision being answered with same reply, "thats why the pbl is here and the cba is gone" . I personally could care less about the business plan, but if the league representative is going to use this as an excuse every time something goes wrong, I was a little curious as to what is was. But hey I will leave it alone.

Your imaginary, though possible, scenario has nothing to do with the business model. Yes, the decision was unfair. That's not just a philosophical statement, it has real world consequences. We get that.

You don't know that A1 is a 'top banana' for the PBL (and indications are he is NOT) or even speaks on its behalf, and certainly neither he nor the league has ever claimed him as a representative, so attributing his words to the PBL isn't fair either. You have a problem with A1, take it up with A1.

[not so fast]

I dont have any problem with a-1 or you or anyone here, none of you are that important. But he claims to be this insider, and the league itself makes those claims as well.

They are the new and improved. Well new and improved what?

Now I will say this, the stats and websites, and playing almost all of their games in two seasons, is great. There are some good things that have been done. but there is still room for improvement. I think the biggest thing the leagues needs is a fresh perspective from someone outside their little circle. Denny truax is a great consultant if they use him truly in that capacity.

Preeths you need to lightnen up, and don't feel you have to defend the pbl like its your child.

[skippy]

This type of crap has been going on in independent baseball for years.

For example:

Look at the trades that are made and sanctioned by the leagues from one Veeck/Wolff operated team to another right before championships are decided.

I remember Carlos Sepulveda suddenly being traded from El Paso (after the Diablos were eliminated from playoff contention) to St. Paul for a player to be named later...and then suddenly returning to the Diablos the following season. Both teams were owned by the same group, and the commissioner sanctioned the deal.

The lesson I have learned from these "I own 4 horses in a 5 horse race" is that for entertainment and personal enjoyment, these games are fun to watch. For real competition that isn't stacked toward certain teams, nothing beats a league that is sanctioned by something larger than itself, is managed by a board, and doesn't have a league "owner".

[preeths]

Where has the league claimed that A1 is an insider? Please, show me.

Fact is, the PBL is improved from where it came from. Considering where they came from, that's not much of a statement, but they are indeed improved by every measure.

You are absolutely right. There is room for improvement, lots of improvement in fact, and Truax is an asset.

I think that this is what some people are missing. No one's defending the PBL on this matter, save for A1. You need to go back and review what I've actually written. Maybe the sixth time I state the decision was unfair, that will be enough for you? Or maybe it's the seventh. I'm not quite sure. The league has earned criticism on this one and some of its other failings this year. That doesn't mean its due ridiculous criticism and outlandish conspiracy theories (they rigged the backboard!, The league is folding!). Seriously, you talk about lightening up, but some of the histrionics displayed over this far from unprecedented decision have been over the top.

[not so fast]

I don't care if a-1 is an insider or not, I dont care if he is doyle himself. But it dont take a nuclear scientist to figure out, he has made very profound statments with a lot of information that only the doc, or doyle would have.

I know owners of teams in the pbl past and present. And he knows more than they do. And thats good, thats what the boards are about. Getting news and info about the leagues we follow.

Well in reference to your claims of over the top responses. Well which came first the chicken or the egg? I think the league were the one that started this and let themselves wide open to all the criticism.

[bdaly]

I dont have any problem with a-1 or you or anyone here, none of you are that important. But he claims to be this insider, and the league itself makes those claims as well.

And he has gotten in on ABA conference calls well, too. So, he can claim to be an "insider" there. Fact is, he predicted they'd change the format to a two of three in Rochester, and he was wrong. (Actually, I predicted, if anything changed, it would be a one game event, and trust me, I'm no insider, it just intuitively makes sense financially.)

Fact is, as everyone agree with, it was the wrong decision for the sake of integrity to move the game. I wish Rochester would have had the opportunity to win it in Battle Creek (which I'm confident they would have), as it would be most fair. The league realized that they would probably barely recoup the cost to bring in a production crew in Battle Creek, and they could save some money by converting it to a one game series, and they did it. As I said, I truly don't believe they did this to "fix" the game. Battle Creek's strongest players were in Rochester (minus the player that left for Puerto Rico, and he wouldn't have been available), and Rochester ran them over from the start. So, I don't even buy that it changed the dynamics that much. I don't buy that their players basically didn't try hard because of the decision. If they did, then that reflects miserably on their own work ethic, but that's surely not the case.

Moving forward, I hope the league expands the regular season schedule, and changes the playoffs back to a single elimination format. Between booking venues, travel, and the difficulty all minor leagues have with playoff attendance (before the finals), I don't think the best of three format is ideal, even if it's less likely to result in the best team advancing. And, I think they should reserve the right to chose the championship game site between the two teams if one of the venues doesn't meet requirements or even for other purposes. (Maybe a vote by league owners can be used to eliminate the Rochester bias fears on these decisions.) For example, if Rochester were to meet Halifax in the finals, even with Rochester being the higher seed, I'd have no problem with them playing the game in Halifax, as they have a great venue too, and they'd probably bring in more ticket revenue. The USL does this, and because it's in the rules ahead of time, it's accepted. One year Rochester got it over Minnesota as the lower seed, and the next year Minnesota got it over Rochester as the lower seed.

So, was the decision wrong? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No. I was annoyed as heck when the NLL did what they did to the Knighthawks (and that isn't a second year league) for the sake of TV. The event at the arena was booked years ahead of time, so they knew they eliminated Rochester's ability to host when they booked that date with ESPN2. Why did they do it? For money and exposure. But, I and other fans got over it. (Yes, it helps that they won.) At the end of the day, to 90% of fans, it's just entertainment anyway...

With that said, I'm going to call it a year. I've spun my wheels enough, as have others--no use re-reading the same arguments. This certainly made this thread come alive, if nothing else.

[not so fast]

yes i must move on. I got bigger fish to fry. And thats the Boston celtics, as our bulls beat them in this series.

But Then there are the cubs, who will break our hearts again.

[preeths]

Again I ask, where has the league claimed that A1 is an insider? Please, show me.

[preeths]

Well in reference to your claims of over the top responses. Well which came first the chicken or the egg? I think the league were the one that started this and let themselves wide open to all the criticism.

You bet they did. But the responses to the league's error should still be reasonable, and in fact most have been. A handful, however, have not been.

[South Atlantic]

A few things to note...

1. NSF is right, A-1 has provided deeper insight on many occasions as to what may/could happen between the leagues. As someone who spends time on the PBL conference calls, he provided information that wasnt made available to the owners/staff of the PBL. Matter of fact, we were asked/told not to come on this board particularly and give any insight/info. Either he missed that conference call or thought it was meant for everyone but him.

2. The backboard conspiracy started as a joke (remember, Vince McMahon?!?). Anyone who believes that had happened on purpose, well shouldnt have their comments read with any high regard.

3. Could the league fold for a year? Well that would certainly stink. But it was made aware that during the third (maybe the fourth) to last conference call that things were not as peachy as appears. Too many bad teams (bad publicity) to contradict steps going forward. If that means to hold back a year and solidify eight - ten real good franchises (with TV show capabilities), then so be it.

4. The league isn't bad, but it isn't that great either. And to say it is second only to the D-League is crazy if you consider how far apart these two entities really are. The PBL wants to be the NBA but their foolish mis-steps are costing them dearly. They don't want to be a minor league, they want to be 'The League' (para-phrasing from conference call #4). That is a great goal but don't let the Montreal's in, the Mid-Michigan's in, the Detroit's in, etc. Take eight solid areas and build them stronger. Fourteen sounds better, but eight show better.

5. People want to put this to bed but this will linger for another two weeks or until my aunt dies (which I will take two weeks off of the computer to grief), and which case I will lost track and not care. But the whole two week picture (Rochester delaying a week for a semi-final and then the league saying they need to play a one-and-done to end the season on time) that just passed...well it sucks. And it leaves me waiting on the WBA!

[preeths]

Really, the WBA? That's where you're putting your hope?

[preeths]

I don't know who A1 is, but I say with a pretty high degree of confidence that he is neither Tom Doyle nor Sev Hwrynak. At least a couple of other posters here know why I can say that.

[South Atlantic]

Well no, not really...but that is where sarcasm can't be typed in to a message!

I appreciate a lot of things you do on this board and for this site in general. Keep up the good work and let's try to put this thing to bed and enjoy the real basketball playoffs (anyone hear that Detroit and Utah forfeited their home games to Cleveland and the Lakers for cost purposes?)???

Wasn't sure if that was a dream anymore!

[preeths]

Well no, not really...but that is where sarcasm can't be typed in to a message!

Gotcha, considering their recent history, that certainly makes a lot more sense!

[tops804]

Fact is, the PBL is improved from where it came from. Considering where they came from, that's not much of a statement, but they are indeed improved by every measure.

Where it came from???

As in ABA roadkill of two years ago?...Yes :)

As far as improving over last PBL season?...No :mad:

When this league can show some signs of getting to where the CBA was in
the late 1980's, I will say that at least one minor basketball league (aside from
the NBA coddled, D-League) has gotten it right...

Truth is, the PBL is the best independent league going right now. However,
I wouldn't hang my hat on the tallest midget theory for too long if I were them.

[LightningMan]

But he claims to be this insider, and the league itself makes those claims as well.
The league has never claimed A1 to be an insider.

[LightningMan]

But it don't [sic] take a nuclear scientist to figure out he has made very profound statements with a lot of information that only the Doc, or Doyle would have.
Except that anyone listening in on the meetings, any owner, any member of the owner's staff, or any other person that might have a legitimate reason to phone into these meetings or be in these rooms would have that information too.

Things are bad enough for the PBL without you trying to put A1 on their team.

[preeths]

Improved over the ABA, yes, that's what I was going for. I don't know that it is reasonable to expect any league outside the D-League to reach the level of the late 80's CBA. The D-League will continue to be the official NBA training ground as long as its around and will draw a lot of the money and attention that went to the CBA a couple decades ago.

[sonnie20]

They were going to fine the Knights ten thousand dollars if we forfieted so they should be fined twenty thousand for the two games.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

The league has never claimed A1 to be an insider.

NSF has been posting on these boards forever and has used the same writing style, also forever. I understood what he wrote immediately. This is what he wrote:

I dont have any problem with a-1 or you or anyone here, none of you are that important. But he claims to be this insider, and the league itself makes those claims as well.

They are the new and improved. Well new and improved what?

"They are the new and improved." is what the league claims. Not that A1 is an insider. Geez!

[not so fast]

now i have a question back on topic. Does anyone have any idea how much money the league is spending on travel?

[CHris902]

NSF has been posting on these boards forever and has used the same writing style, also forever. I understood what he wrote immediately. This is what he wrote:



"They are the new and improved." is what the league claims. Not that A1 is an insider. Geez!

The indiscriminate use of paragraphing is always going to create confusion. (but when it comes to message boards I'd prefer too many paragraph breaks to not enough)

[preeths]

NSF has been posting on these boards forever and has used the same writing style, also forever. I understood what he wrote immediately. This is what he wrote:



"They are the new and improved." is what the league claims. Not that A1 is an insider. Geez!

Wow, really?! You get that out of, "But he claims to be this insider, and the league itself makes those claims as well?" The "claim," one never made by the way, is connected in the same sentence to the "insider" comment, and you believe he was actually making the "claim" about the next paragraph? Interesting way to read it. Yet he didn't bother to clear up the confusion when I asked him twice.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Wow, really?! You get that out of, "But he claims to be this insider, and the league itself makes those claims as well?" The "claim," one never made by the way, is connected in the same sentence to the "insider" comment, and you believe he was actually making the "claim" about the next paragraph? Interesting way to read it. Yet he didn't bother to clear up the confusion when I asked him twice.

I never said it was an easy writing style to follow. 8)

[preeths]

I'm more interested in the reading style.

[PBLfan9]

now i have a question back on topic. Does anyone have any idea how much money the league is spending on travel?

That is a great question! The PBL did a terrible job of travel this year. Just like there decision making they need to step up their game. I expect the league to start quickly if not already on next season (I would say I think they would have already started on this but its not like they have givin anybody any reason to believe they have). The PBL screwed up there travel just as much as the championship game.
This league really needs a lot of change. I know they are expecting 2 or 3 teams from the NBDL next season to join and supposidly will know in the next couple of months who will be in or out next season. Which will lead to the scheduling to be done sooner and travel taken care of sooner. The league also needs to stop favoring 1 team, this includes front office and refs. The Razorsharks are a very good and dont need the extra help. I still think the Sharks would have won the title but damn they get alot of help.

[DazedAndAmused]

That is a great question! The PBL did a terrible job of travel this year. Just like there decision making they need to step up their game. I expect the league to start quickly if not already on next season (I would say I think they would have already started on this but its not like they have givin anybody any reason to believe they have). The PBL screwed up there travel just as much as the championship game.
This league really needs a lot of change. I know they are expecting 2 or 3 teams from the NBDL next season to join and supposidly will know in the next couple of months who will be in or out next season. Which will lead to the scheduling to be done sooner and travel taken care of sooner. The league also needs to stop favoring 1 team, this includes front office and refs. The Razorsharks are a very good and dont need the extra help. I still think the Sharks would have won the title but damn they get alot of help.

I guess if you're going to do a bad job somewhere, this is the place to do it (assuming the obvious that you actually get teams to the games.)

Fans and sponsors don't care how many flights or extra bus rides it took to get there (even though I know the players do.)

Now, if one team gets the cushy arrangements (let's say even if they fund the difference) while the others don't, you could make the case that there is an inherent advantage gained.

On the other hand, it's their money, and it's no different than spending a little more money on a better player in terms of gaining that advantage. But it doesn't help the Rochester-centric perception that is now burned in a lot more minds.

But, the fact is that the league still does or did pay for travel (at least for most teams), so it's hard to be too critical in this regard. I would tend to give a pass on this one, but push harder for improvements in other areas......like letting in only well funded teams that pay their players, coaches, landlords, and taxes.

[sonnie20]

Number one it was the first game in Rochester, game two in Battle Creek and game three in Battle Creek if nessary. And whats all this talk about airfare when Battle Creek had to take a bus to Rochester..... OH you must have been reffering to Rochesters Airfare they would be the only team flying. You see they wanted Battle Creek real tired for that game, Am I right A1. Because they made Wilmington ride the Bus back from Wilmington with Battle Creek for game two and three after Battle Creek took the bus to Wilminton to play game one. This league is fixed......

[PBLfan9]

I guess if you're going to do a bad job somewhere, this is the place to do it (assuming the obvious that you actually get teams to the games.)

Fans and sponsors don't care how many flights or extra bus rides it took to get there (even though I know the players do.)

Now, if one team gets the cushy arrangements (let's say even if they fund the difference) while the others don't, you could make the case that there is an inherent advantage gained.

On the other hand, it's their money, and it's no different than spending a little more money on a better player in terms of gaining that advantage. But it doesn't help the Rochester-centric perception that is now burned in a lot more minds.

But, the fact is that the league still does or did pay for travel (at least for most teams), so it's hard to be too critical in this regard. I would tend to give a pass on this one, but push harder for improvements in other areas......like letting in only well funded teams that pay their players, coaches, landlords, and taxes.

I understand the fans dont care how the team gets there but the players do and they are the most important part about this league.

If both teams have the same travel situation to a venue or game then it doesnt matter. But didnt BC take a 15 hour ride bus to Wilmington for game 1 and play the same day they arrived? Didnt Wilmington take a 20 hour ride bus to Buffalo for the 1st game of the season and play that same day they arrived (no excuses to lose to Buffalo)? Im not sayin they would have won those games had they arrived a day earlier by flyin in but it does play a role on you physically. And even if BC and Wilmington got on the same bus ride back to BC after game 1, what if something happened in the game that pissed someone of enough to cause some kind of trouble on the bus between the two teams? I know act like adults and that wont happen, but its better not to put yourself in stupid places.

There were many more poor traveling decisions this year by the PBL. And even if the fans dont care, the coaches and players in this league do. Word gets out that the league is unorganized and it makes players and good coaches turn away from the league.

It all starts at the top! If everything is organized from the top the league will be more successful. Im not saying traveling is a bigger problem than the end of the season but it sure as hell needs to be addressed.

[sonnie20]

I bet Rochester flew to most of It's away games. The player they have Blog for the PBL is a player from Rochester and he was complaining about a six hour bus trip. Thats a joke compared to us traveling to Wilmington or Rochester on a bus. And not to forget Monteal in a limo designed to hold ten regular people not thirteen Basketball players and the coaches and it broke down on the way. Again other teams know how teams are treated in this league and It's a joke.

[a1sports]

Since the league pays for all the travel....How many owners said.. ..we will upgrade our travel situation? Hmmmm LOL.
I would bet Battle creek didnt

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Just curious -

Did other teams fly to away games this year? And if they took a bus, did they have the option of flying instead on the PBL's dime, or would the teams have needed to kick in the difference?

In "paying for the travel" did the PBL give each team a specific budget to cover all travel costs, or did it arrange the travel for each team?

If anyone knows, I'm curious to see how it was organized (without the snide comments and LOLs tossed in; and no I don;t want to shove a plane ticket anywhere on my person...) :rolleyes:

[The Sweeper]

I am pretty sure that on one occasion, the Frost Heaves bussed to Montreal and then flew to Halifax (I think it was the first game we played there). I also believe that they had to have flown from Buffalo to Halifax for our second game there. Our super-fans (I think only Don and Dick made that trip) made the trek from Barre, VT to Buffalo, NY and then to Halifax before returning home.

[misenern]

Just curious -

Did other teams fly to away games this year? And if they took a bus, did they have the option of flying instead on the PBL's dime, or would the teams have needed to kick in the difference?

In "paying for the travel" did the PBL give each team a specific budget to cover all travel costs, or did it arrange the travel for each team?

If anyone knows, I'm curious to see how it was organized (without the snide comments and LOLs tossed in; and no I don;t want to shove a plane ticket anywhere on my person...) :rolleyes:

From what I read in the Halifax media this year, it sounded like the league books and arranges travel with the exception of Halifax's. At least that was what was Levingston told one of the papers when referring to Buffalo flying up to play their first game here. So I guess I am not 100%. Maybe they just book flights and send cheques to reimburse fuel costs.

Also, I heard from a Wilmington player that they flew to many of their games.

[PBLfan9]

I believe it was agreed before the season that the league would be in charge and take care of the traveling. Most teams flew to the majority of their away games. But when the league fails to book flights it is hard for owners to say I will pay for 10 to 15 players and coaches to get on a round trip flight last minute. It can be hard to find flights into big cities like Detriot the day before you need to leave for one person already, hard as hell for up to 15. The league just needs to be more consistent with travel. If the league agrees to tell the owners at the beginning of the year not worry about travel it will be taken care of for you, then it should be up to the league not to lean on the owners to offer to pay for travel and set up travel a day or 2 before a game.

I believe it was the lack of organization as much as it may have been about funds.

[sonnie20]

The Knights flew to one game the first game in Wilminton, The rest were busses and Mini Vans and like I said a crappy Limo that broke down on the way to Monteal. I was always told the league set up these trips. And If you don't like the snide remarks quit making them yourself ABA! And A1 I bet Rochester didn't have to but as I said before your right our owners are cheap and belive me I ripped on them as well.

[DazedAndAmused]

The Knights flew to one game the first game in Wilminton, The rest were busses and Mini Vans and like I said a crappy Limo that broke down on the way to Monteal. I was always told the league set up these trips. And If you don't like the snide remarks quit making them yourself ABA! And A1 I bet Rochester didn't have to but as I said before your right our owners are cheap and belive me I ripped on them as well.

Yes, you ripped on them both, which at this point doesn't add much to the discussion. The season is done and behind us. Rochester owners own the league and that inherently creates perceived, if not real inequities. I think they need to do some work here, but when it comes down to it, it's their money. Would BC even have been in any league at all last yr if the league didn't pay for travel?

The league made some mistakes this year, and it sounds like your owners pinched pennies and maybe made a few mistakes as well. If they hadn't pinched pennies, they may have ended up like mid michigan....I don't know. No one was left with a great taste in their mouths after the finals, and everyone knows Rochester was a bit more stacked in many respects. It is what it is. Maybe it will make it that much sweeter if someone does knock them off.

Think about this though. If not for the Rochester owners, we'd have much worse options in front of us. I hope BC is back next year if they can afford it. I'll even pull for them to win it all to avenge this year.

Let's play ball.

[bdyer]

Since the league pays for all the travel....The league pays for all travel except when it doesn't.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

The Knights flew to one game the first game in Wilminton, The rest were busses and Mini Vans and like I said a crappy Limo that broke down on the way to Monteal. I was always told the league set up these trips.

OK

Told by whom? A member of the BC front office, or a player, or a guy who happened to walk by an open door and heard someone say something to somebody else? So, who paid for the flight to Wilmington?

And If you don't like the snide remarks quit making them yourself ABA!
I don't mind the snide remarks - I just asked for a straight answer on travel is all. Feel free to tell me and everyone else what to stick in any bodily orifice elsewhere - that is, until you cross the line. Again.

You bounce in here on a one-theme crusade, yelling and screaming, but missing the big picture.

For example, if the league paid in full to fly BC to Wilmington, then ONLY paid the rest of the year to drive them to other games

yet.....

the league (not Sev, the PBL - HUGE difference here) continued to pay in full to fly Rochester to their games

then you have substantial proof of the lack of equality in the PBL in how they treat their teams.

If the travel arrangement was the PBL saying "We will give you X to travel to each game" and teams chose to go the cheapest way they could on the money they received, then the onus is on them, NOT the PBL (and you can stop ranting about it).

[Chuck the Writer]

The Knights flew to one game the first game in Wilminton, The rest were busses and Mini Vans and like I said a crappy Limo that broke down on the way to Monteal.

Dude... it's called a spell-checker. They traveled in "buses" and "minivans". The teams' home cities were "Wilmington" and "Montreal."

Except that BC didn't go to Montreal... they went to Quebec City to play the Kebs. And whatever transportation they took - when it did break down, the Kebs sent vans and buses two hours out to get the Knights - and fed every member of the Knights and their traveling staff a decent boxed chicken dinner from the local St. Hubert (I should know, I enjoyed a boxed dinner as well).

Dude... do a little research. Your facts are often as straight as Lombard Street in San Francisco. And stop being so dang antagonistic.