mid michigan on the brink

[not so fast]

Is mid michigan folding? That seems to be what is the rumor. I would not be suprised.

If so, does that mean the washington generals act 3? Or does that mean we are heading for a Chicago showcase to make up games.

Stay tuned!

[South Atlantic]

Their ownership group pulled out last week according to a recent article, but it also stated the team continued to play after the separation. They stated philosophical differences. We'll see.

[a1sports]

lets check the economics of spending money to have a basketball team in this economy,,,,who has the deep pockets?

PBL loses teams
CBA folds
D-league owners screaming at owners meeting about losing money,,, some teams for sale and 1-2 may not be comming back next year

too have play money.....what a wonderful thing !

so....

PBL will wind up with maybe 10 teams and be back next year
CBA is done
D-league owners submit restructuring plan for NBA to give them more money and of course will ba back next year


to the owners who had lots of money in stock market,,,,ouch !! its understandable you have no play money now.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Is mid michigan folding? That seems to be what is the rumor. I would not be suprised.

If so, does that mean the washington generals act 3? Or does that mean we are heading for a Chicago showcase to make up games.

Stay tuned!

I wouldn't be surprised either. This franchise is the Augusta Groove of the North. However, the Groove had more time to market their team...not that it mattered.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

...to the owners who had lots of money in stock market,,,,ouch !! its understandable you have no play money now.

...and then some owners let their egos get the best of them. Some owners shouldn't be owners at all. Some franchises shouldn't be franchises at all. Mid-Michigan is one of those franchises, IMO. Battle Creek is another. These people knew Michigan's economy was hit hard by the decline in the auto industry when they first opened shop. These owners fell for the pie-in-the-sky promises.

[misenern]

If it's true, who didn't see this coming?

I don't think the PBL gained enough to make it worth their while letting in these low end teams. They should have just played with 10. Augusta, Montreal and Mid-Michigan should not have been let into the league.

[misenern]

...and then some owners let their egos get the best of them. Some owners shouldn't be owners at all. Some franchises shouldn't be franchises at all. Mid-Michigan is one of those franchises, IMO. Battle Creek is another. These people knew Michigan's economy was hit hard by the decline in the auto industry when they first opened shop. These owners fell for the pie-in-the-sky promises.

Why do you hate Battle Creek so much? They have been a decent PBL franchise as far as I can tell. Hell, they even passed your stupid "three year rule." They must be good then.

[not so fast]

I don't often agree with a-1 sports, but he might be on to something. What else is there? What options do owners have from the cba, or disgruntled d league teams? They might end up in the pbl which will allow them to cut away the weak feanchises and add strong franchises from other leagues.

The cba missed that opportunity when these strong aba franchises joined the pbl, so they may be the only game in town outside the d-league.

In spite of the problematic teams this year in the pbl, they have a golden opportunity to grow and become a substancially much better league by next season.

I m not sure if its just by default or not, but they have survived!

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Why do you hate Battle Creek so much? They have been a decent PBL franchise as far as I can tell. Hell, they even passed your stupid "three year rule." They must be good then.

Ahhhhh, you remember the three-year rule. Thanks. Well, stupid or not it's a good rule of thumb. I'm not sure you can include Battle Creek as passing the three-year rule. They went from a low-cost spring league to their first season in a more expensive winter league...all in the same year (a red flag, IMO).

I'm not a hater. I simply believe in keeping it real.

[LightningMan]

Why do you hate Battle Creek so much? They have been a decent PBL franchise as far as I can tell. Hell, they even passed your stupid "three year rule." They must be good then.
That's what I don't get. They're originally from the same league as his late, lamented Steelheads, there are no rumors of unpaid bills or insolvency, they've been around longer than the league anchors, and they're 12 and 1 ( :) ). And yet he persists they're one of the problem teams.

[LightningMan]

Ahhhhh, you remember the three-year rule. Thanks. Well, stupid or not it's a good rule of thumb. I'm not sure you can include Battle Creek as passing the three-year rule. They went from a low-cost spring league to their first season in a more expensive winter league...all in the same year (a red flag, IMO).

I'm not a hater. I simply believe in keeping it real.
The reason they're suspicious in your eyes is solely because they went to the PBL. That's not reasoning. That is the hating you say you're not doing.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

The reason they're suspicious in your eyes is solely because they went to the PBL. That's not reasoning. That is the hating you say you're not doing.

Hmmmmm. I didn't think Battle Creek was a good organization last spring when they were in the IBL either. I've stated that before and I stated that when they were in the IBL. Detroit is another joke franchise, in a long string of joke franchises from Detroit and other major league towns...if you think I'm just picking on Battle Creek. Actually, I don't think much of the idea of locating a franchise in Michigan--period. Not during the fall/winter, at least. There have been several recent minor league hoops failures in Michigan. The state of Michigan was feeling the effects of our current economic crises before much of the nation.

However, my understanding is that Battle Creek was once a fine organization. I've only followed them a little less than a year now. I'm apparently not seeing what some others are seeing.

[not so fast]

ken, you make it seem like everyone in michigan is in the soup line. Now I admit, i havent been there recently, but I didnt know it had been become a third world nation.

Also, i think ticket prices for minorleague is not going to break anyone. If someone wants to go , 10 dollars wont stop them, even if there getting unemployment.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

ken, you make it seem like everyone in michigan is in the soup line. Now I admit, i havent been there recently, but I didnt know it had been become a third world nation.

Also, i think ticket prices for minorleague is not going to break anyone. If someone wants to go , 10 dollars wont stop them, even if there getting unemployment.

Minor league sports can inexpensive options for fans, but in this economy, going to places that have been hit particularly hard - like Michigan - is asking for trouble.

There aren't going to be enough someones in that region willing to drop $10 (and you are assuming they are going alone?) that they have a hard time coming up to make it work for the team. So instead of the usual losses incurred by the team, the depressed local economy virtually guarantees that the bottom line is even redder.

It's a tough go no matter where you are; and there aren't a lot of people out there with the available cash to run/start up a minor league organization, the cajones to accept the huge financial losses that will be upfront, and the staying power to hopefully outlast the downturn and see the franchise through to a break-even period (if it gets that good), much less a profit.

[not so fast]

Is michigan game against rochester cancelled? Or will it be made up by some other players. Or will there be a showcase like last year to make up games.

[patmc16]

Detroit is another joke franchise

Based on?????

I've read things like this about the Panthers before but I don't see it and don't understand why. The team may not have had a lot of wins (luckily for them Mid-Michigan is/was around) but they seem like a solid franchise to me. Maybe I am jaded because I am comparing them to the ABA teams that have come through this decade and the IBL MC Mustangs. Compared to those other teams, even the ABA incarnation of the Panthers, they seem solid. They play in a nice (albeit high school) gym in a wealthier part of the 'burbs. They have a team office that is open regular business hours. I haven't heard anything about the bills not getting paid (not saying they are or not, I have no idea). I give them credit for attempting to make a legitimate go of it in this area. Thanks largely to our do nothing, finger pointing governor, Michigan was in a one state recession long before the rest of the country caught up (but that is a discussion for another time and another board). They may go belly up tomorrow but, even if they did, I wouldn't consider them a joke nearly as much as a victim of circumstances. They only thing that concerns me now is that 3 of their 5 remaining home games are against Montreal, Augusta and Mid-Michigan. Obviously, Montreal is out but what about the other 2?

The Destroyers on the other hand could be easily called a joke. I stopped by the "training facility" a couple of weeks ago when I was in the area. What a dump! The pictures that were posted here when the team was announced (bad as they were) makes it look much better than it is. I can see why they moved the games to a local high school. The original location could be best described as a small brick box that looks like it was last updated sometime during WWII that you get to by going down a glorified alley behind an old church. I wasn't sure I was in the right place, that is, I couldn't believe it, until I seen "JJKN" written on a sheet of paper taped to the inside of the filthy glass in the door. I swear it was worse than anywhere the various teams have played in metro Detroit over the last decade.

[bdaly]

They only thing that concerns me now is that 3 of their 5 remaining home games are against Montreal, Augusta and Mid-Michigan. Obviously, Montreal is out but what about the other 2?
Actually, Montreal was taken over by another local ownership group, and they're now fine (off the court, anyway). For Mid-Michigan's ownership group supposedly pulling out last week, they played a spirited game against Rochester Saturday with a full lineup. It'll be interesting to see if they play at home tomorrow, though. Despite all of Augusta's issues, they continue to play all their games at home and on the road and they continue to look formidable.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Based on?????

I've read things like this about the Panthers before but I don't see it and don't understand why. The team may not have had a lot of wins (luckily for them Mid-Michigan is/was around) but they seem like a solid franchise to me. Maybe I am jaded because I am comparing them to the ABA teams that have come through this decade and the IBL MC Mustangs. Compared to those other teams, even the ABA incarnation of the Panthers, they seem solid. They play in a nice (albeit high school) gym in a wealthier part of the 'burbs. They have a team office that is open regular business hours. I haven't heard anything about the bills not getting paid (not saying they are or not, I have no idea). I give them credit for attempting to make a legitimate go of it in this area. Thanks largely to our do nothing, finger pointing governor, Michigan was in a one state recession long before the rest of the country caught up (but that is a discussion for another time and another board). They may go belly up tomorrow but, even if they did, I wouldn't consider them a joke nearly as much as a victim of circumstances. They only thing that concerns me now is that 3 of their 5 remaining home games are against Montreal, Augusta and Mid-Michigan. Obviously, Montreal is out but what about the other 2?

The Destroyers on the other hand could be easily called a joke. I stopped by the "training facility" a couple of weeks ago when I was in the area. What a dump! The pictures that were posted here when the team was announced (bad as they were) makes it look much better than it is. I can see why they moved the games to a local high school. The original location could be best described as a small brick box that looks like it was last updated sometime during WWII that you get to by going down a glorified alley behind an old church. I wasn't sure I was in the right place, that is, I couldn't believe it, until I seen "JJKN" written on a sheet of paper taped to the inside of the filthy glass in the door. I swear it was worse than anywhere the various teams have played in metro Detroit over the last decade.

Based on what you just said about detroit:
1) The team is playing in a high school gym. Any team playing at a high school spells j-o-k-e to me. A franchise's ability to generate revenue is hampered by playing in such a non-professional venue. Set-up and take-down after freshman girls' gym class isn't the only problem these high school playing franchises face.

2) They play in a suburb of Detroit?!? The Pistons play in a suburb of Detroit. The Panthers on the other hand (and every minor league team for that matter) need an identity. For example: Gary is a hop, skip, and a jump from Chicago. The Chicago skycrapers can be clearly seen from Gary. However, anything prefixed by the word Chicago would never fly here. Having the word Detroit in front of the word Panthers apparently doesn't help attendance there either.

3) A continuation of Number 2. Minor league basketball doesn't work in major league markets. Period.

I would expect a team to have an office with regular business hours during the season.

[not so fast]

Mid michigan game cancelled for this Thursday. That from a good source.

Next season will really be the defining moment for the pbl. It certainly can become a player in the minorleague basketball if they do it right.

I had an owner of a team from overseas just ask me about the state of the leagues here in the U.S. I told him they are just like are stock market right now. UNSTABLE!

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

... Despite all of Augusta's issues, they continue to play all their games at home and on the road and they continue to look formidable.

...and they continue to owe thousands because of bounced checks. Sheriffs have been known to show-up on game night, confiscate all receipts, and turn those monies over to the debtor. However, the debtor would need to file a lawsuit first. The Groove will be a distant memory before any sheriff can catch up to them.

This is one instance where being strangers from out-of-town will help the Groove ownership. After the season...poof! They'll disappear leaving a trail of uncollectable debts behind.

[misenern]

...and they continue to owe thousands because of bounced checks. Sheriffs have been known to show-up on game night, confiscate all receipts, and turn those monies over to the debtor. However, the debtor would need to file a lawsuit first. The Groove will be a distant memory before any sheriff can catch up to them.

This is one instance where being strangers from out-of-town will help the Groove ownership. After the season...poof! They'll disappear leaving a trail of uncollectable debts behind.

And scorch another potential market.

Also, Mid-Michigan has officially folded. What a terrible franchise. I really don't understand what the PBL was doing letting these kinds of teams in.

[CHris902]

I still don't yunderstand why the PBL let them in in the first place. The non-Atlantic divisions were still playing a ton of games outside their divisions anyway so it didn't make a big difference if they were in or not. They weren't exactly a prestige signing either. It was just a bad idea from the get-go.

[LightningMan]

Once again, if there is an area that is a true black mark of this league, its the teams they bring in without experience in another league. Right now the defunct Arkansas Impact and the struggling Buffalo Stampede are the two best PBL only teams ever.

[Alumni96]

Does this mean that there will be a dispersal draft for Mid-Michigan's players? :redface:

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

I still don't yunderstand why the PBL let them in in the first place. The non-Atlantic divisions were still playing a ton of games outside their divisions anyway so it didn't make a big difference if they were in or not. They weren't exactly a prestige signing either. It was just a bad idea from the get-go.

I agree.

On another note:
This is why I say what I say about Battle Creek and about keeping it real. Everyone should take a good hard look at the crowd size in the pics accompanying this article:

http://www.battlecreekenquirer.com/article/20090226/SPORTS/902260328/1006

Maybe there was a mass exodus for the concession stands. I dunno.

[zeke41]

I'm glad I got Chuck Reed outta there. I have to say, though...I had other motivations to get him in Buffalo. It was solely an opportunity move for him.

Mid-Michigan always did what they said they would financially. He wasn't making a million dollars a week or anything, but he got what he was told he would get. Everything was on the up and up, except, of course, his playing time. He needed more opportunity to better his career. Now he's got that in Buffalo.

[admiral2866]

Are you kidding me that is a picture of the general manager talking to his game crew before gates had even opened.The knights are avging over 1400 people. IT has nothing to do with michigan. He has to do with how you market your team and the knights do a great job with that. They have a great group of owners and the GM has been doing this for a long time. TheY are going no were and will be back next year. Do me one favor if you are going to post picture of the crowd. Try posting one of the real crowd. Try there web site and do not forget they play in a arena.

[CHris902]

Seriously - it says right under the pictures that it's before the game i.e. before gates opened. It's pretty clear.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Are you kidding me that is a picture of the general manager talking to his game crew before gates had even opened.The knights are avging over 1400 people. IT has nothing to do with michigan. He has to do with how you market your team and the knights do a great job with that. They have a great group of owners and the GM has been doing this for a long time. TheY are going no were and will be back next year. Do me one favor if you are going to post picture of the crowd. Try posting one of the real crowd. Try there web site and do not forget they play in a arena.

...as far as it now saying before the game--well, that's the magic of electronic media. I'm totally in favor of fans posting crowd shots (emphasis on fans). A picture speaks a thousand words.

Suit yourself. The state of the state of Michigan's economy has nothing to do with the state of the Knights. I'll stand by my previous statements however.

[preeths]

I don't think that's the argument being made. More accurately, I believe some are saying the state of Michigan's economy isn't necessarily a death knell to minor league sports. Minor league teams in the state are going to have to work extra hard and be smart, but people will still seek out entertainment. They'll just be much more conscious of getting value for every dollar. It is up to the teams to provide that value.

[Minor League Man]

I don't think that's the argument being made. More accurately, I believe some are saying the state of Michigan's economy isn't necessarily a death knell to minor league sports. Minor league teams in the state are going to have to work extra hard and be smart, but people will still seek out entertainment. They'll just be much more conscious of getting value for every dollar. It is up to the teams to provide that value.

That, Paul, is the secret to the Battle Creek Knights' success this year (and for their whole history).

[not so fast]

well i am glad someone agrees with me. everyone in michigan is not walking around with a tin can asking for money. I know ken is into the state of economy in michigan, but i am sure that people still go to malls there, still go to the movies, still go bowling, still hunt, and fish, and sadly, some attend hip hop concerts as well.

If the game is entertaining with good players playing, people will still come. And you need a good venue as well. I mean if anything, they might get rid of some of there movie channels on cable, and save money that way, and choose to go to a ball game instead. The pbl needs to make sure they have a solid team on the floor. A good product of basketball, a good local halftime entertainment, decent concession stands with reasonable prices, and i think you can sell it even in a slow economy.

Families can't afford the pistons, but they can afford to watch battle creek against detroit. But let there be quality players, and coaches on the floor, and it will sell. And battle creek seems to be making it work so far.