Can minor league basketball ever be viable?

[marlthom]

Is it possible to have a profitable league in the United States? With NCAA basketball so dominant in so many cities, is it worth the effort? The talent pool is available, the facilities are many, but are the fans really clamoring for a non-NCAA brand of the game beyond the NBA? The USBL, the NBDL and the CBA have churned through many franchises in many markets. Why is it so tough to get organized and run an efficient sports franchise in this sport?

Also, why wouldn't the "strong" teams of the ABA run screaming to the CBA? Are the expansion costs too much to overcome?

[Sam Hill]

There've been some places where they've been able to make a go of it, but you're right, it seems like it's a bigger struggle in basketball than most other minor-league sports.

And if I was the CBA and wanted a stronger league with a bigger national footprint (the way they used to be), I wouldn't be so hard about expansion fees. As long as they do better due dilligence than Joe Newman does. :)

[Common Sense]

The current ESPN the magazine puts the price of a CBA franchise at $750,000. There is no way any of the ABA teams could join the CBA at that rate. As a CBA fan, I don't want any of them to join either. Nashville is considered one of the strongest ABA clubs and average 600 fans a night according to their newspaper. Sorry, but that wouldn't pay for the franchise fee or operating costs of actually flying to away games instead of just cancelling them.
Yes the CBA is small and could use some well screened expansion cities and there are a few on the way, but it's best to do it that way and be a legitimate league that plays all games and completes seasons. There have already been 9 CBA to NBA call ups this season, more than from any other "minor" league. It's the real deal, shaky like all minor league sports are to some point at times, but not shaky enough to invite any owner that was ignorant enough to fall for Joe Newman.

[Anonymous Hardhat]

I disagree with CommonSense on one point. I think Arkansas could make a go of it in the CBA. They are averaging well above 3-4,000 in their first year as an ABA franchise. My only concern is whether the ownership will want to make a 750,000 investment.

By the way, I heard that the CBA franchise fee is actually 300,000. It must have gone up recently. Do you know if the CBA uses this fee to secure a letter of credit or bond to ensure that the team will survive at least the balance of a season if an owner goes south? In my opinion, that's the key to success of any budding professional minor league basketball league. Teams need fans and sponsors to make it viable. If the fans and sponsors aren't assured that they will receive a full season of games, they won't buy tickets or sponsorship packages. In order to assure them, the teams and the league need to ensure that they have a backup plan if the owner goes south. A letter of credit or bond is the perfect answer.

[Pounder]

Why would anyone trying to do this want a national footprint? Do you really think you're going to challenge the NBA?

The one place where Joe Newman actually had brain cells remaining was to "regionalize on a national scale." Well, in theory, it works, if you forget the focus on large markets.

OK, I'm appointing myself the Benevolent Despot of Minor League Basketball for the Intermountain Region. I don't try to stake a league on, "oh, gosh, you can play exotic cities like Boston and Little Rock." I want a blood-and-guts rivalry between the Boise area and Idaho Falls. I want Billings and Butte. I want Cheyenne and Casper. I want 2-6 more teams, but I'm not sure if I want Bismarck and Rapid City (who should probably belong to the King of the Northern Plains), Pueblo and Colorado Springs and Grand Junction may work and may not, any Utah town is going to follow their local school (and, dang, every reasonable Utah market has a school that is or is about to be Division 1)... so can I poach Yakima and Tri-Cities from The People's Republic of Cascadia? Do I go into Spokane? Knowing that lovely Pendleton, Oregon (pop 16,000) actually has a facility, do I take that chance? Are Gallup and Santa Fe and Flagstaff and Prescott too far away?

OK, I pick this region because I have half knowledge of it, and it's still difficult. Point is, a bus league trumps a jet league in the expense department. Moreover, I want media attention, and markets that are smaller... but have the media... can deliver, um, sometimes.

[Anonymous Hardhat]

The only other viable avenue in my opinion is a true minor league basketball system that is affiliated with the NBA. While the NBDL doesn't seem to be making any great strides, I think the NHL and MLB minor league models tend to work when the teams are operated independently by financially secure owners who have some knowledge of operating a professional sports franchise. They work because the major league affiliates provide (a) in some cases, help with equipment expenses and (b) quality players that are either (i) on their way up to the bigs or (ii) on their way down from the bigs. These two things, coupled with family-friendly entertainment in mid-sized to small-sized cities that don't have major league hockey or baseball teams competing for the same entertainment dollar, allow them to survive and, often, prosper. The NBA has toyed with the idea, but won't sell the ownership rights to the NBDL teams. I think they are fearful because of the failures of the CBAs, IBLs, USBLs and ABAs in the United States, versus the success of the European and other foreign leagues. I also think they don't feel they can compete with the NCAA, which doesn't provide as competitive of a product in hockey or baseball. However, that disparity is dwindling with the increasing number of high school graduates and college freshman/sophomores jumping to the NBA, which is why the NBA formed the NBDL in the first place.

The NBA will eventually go this way and will provide the groundwork for minor league basketball to be successful. When it does, one or more lucky regional leagues (probably a combination of the CBA and the NBDL) will reap the rewards, while the other leagues (like the USBL and ABA, if they are still around) will dissolve. At one point, I believe Joe Newman thought he could present his league to the NBA as a complete package in this regard. However, I don't think David Stern would wipe his ass with Joe Newman's tongue if the paper industry went on strike based on all of the failures (financially and otherwise) of the ABA.

[hoop1]

There have been several proposals in the past to classify minor league basketball much along the lines of minor league baseball. There needs to be a single controlling agency that is in charge of basketball in the US. USA Basketball should be that organization. However, for it to work, it would need to fall under the umbrella of the NBA. The NBA would like to establish a minor league system, currently proposing 15 teams with direct ties to the NBA. Whether that would be the NBDL plus the CBA plus additional teams remains to be seen. However, the old proposal looked something like this:

AAA: Established leagues (playing in traditional season) that are feeding players directly to the NBA

NBDL
CBA
ABA????

Special Classification
Established leagues playing in non-traditional season:
USBL

Other leagues would be classified AA or A.

Right now the hold up has been the NBA Players Association. The new CBA must have room for the NBA to establish a strong minor league system.

[Common Sense]

I have followed the possibility of a CBA - NBDL merger to create a 15 team league for the NBA. hoop1 is correct, the sticking point is the players association not wanting unproven rookies or injured players having to be sent down for assignment until ready. The other sticking point was the CBA has private ownership while the NBDL was all league owned. However, the new NBDL team this year came in with private owners. I feel that would make a CBA - NBDL merger more attractive now, showing league owned and private ownership could work together. There are a few other details, mainly that David Stern has to realize the CBA has more talent, call ups and fans than the NBDL and that he should be begging for the CBA rather than playing hardball on few points. A few years ago, the NBA was poised to take over the CBA, but Isiah Thomas wrecked that, and I think that is why Stern now has a slight chip on his shoulder.
I agree with Anonymous Hardhat, in that the NBA would have zero interest in the ABA and that Joe's plan may have been to create a league fast and hope the NBA would think there was a league with a team for every NBA team and buy it all out. It will never happen.

[Houston Caldwell]

Asked Harold Huggins about the attendance figure and he had been typoed by his own paper; actual season average in Allen in Nashville is 950. However, since the Anthony blowup, a 600 average is about right. Until then. team was averaging 1100 at home.

[Houston Caldwell]

And, consider this; the NBA owns the rights to the ABA name, so Joe can't operate without David Stern's acquiescence (at least not under the name ABA). It has occurred to me that it is time for MR. Stern to use his leverage to force change.

[johnnydr87]

The current ESPN the magazine puts the price of a CBA franchise at $750,000. There is no way any of the ABA teams could join the CBA at that rate. As a CBA fan, I don't want any of them to join either. Nashville is considered one of the strongest ABA clubs and average 600 fans a night according to their newspaper. Sorry, but that wouldn't pay for the franchise fee or operating costs of actually flying to away games instead of just cancelling them.
Yes the CBA is small and could use some well screened expansion cities and there are a few on the way, but it's best to do it that way and be a legitimate league that plays all games and completes seasons. There have already been 9 CBA to NBA call ups this season, more than from any other "minor" league. It's the real deal, shaky like all minor league sports are to some point at times, but not shaky enough to invite any owner that was ignorant enough to fall for Joe Newman.
I've read a couple of CBA fans' comments about the ABA's top teams being crappy, and it's pretty annoying (especially since I'm from Arkansas). Arkansas averages more fans than any of the CBA franchises, and more incentives to go. If you take the last three games, their average is over 7000. If you take the whole season, it's 4000-5000 people per game. They have had Mark Martin and Shawn Michaels (WWE) come to sign autographs at games, as well as a few other lesser stars. Some of the CBA fans seem to see themself on a pedestal that's higher than it is in reality.

[Anonymous Hardhat]

Does anyone have concrete evidence that the NBA owns the rights to the ABA tradename, trademark and logo? I think that this "rumor" was started on another messageboard and carried over to this one. I recall Dick Tinkham telling people at one time that he and a couple of others have either owned those rights since the merger or acquired those rights when he was starting ABA2000. If the NBA really does own them, do you think they would actually consent to a group like Joe, Dick and Rico using them in the marketplace. Look how careful and protective they have become about the rights to the tradenames, trademarks and logos of the NBA and its teams and players. I can't imagine that David Stern or anyone associated with the NBA would actually sit in a meeting with these three and give them the rights to use the toilet paper in the league office's bathroom, much less the valuable (think throwback merchandise) rights to the ABA tradename, trademark and logo. I think the NBA may own the rights to the tradenames, trademarks and logos of the actual ABA teams that joined the NBA, but the ABA tradename, trademark and logo were probably not as coveted at the time and left behind for someone like Dick (who was pretty involved in the ABA) to purchase for almost nothing.

[Common Sense]

The possibility also exists that David Stern has no idea there is a league (I use that term loosely) using the name ABA. After all, in about 95% of the ABA markets (besides Nashville and Arkansas) most of the residents have no idea there is a league using the ABA name. (Case in point, Los Angeles averaging 20 fans a game)
So johnnydr87 thinks I'm holding the CBA on too high of a pedestal? I really don't think so. Most CBA fans go out to watch the players and coaches that actually can tomorrow be called up to the NBA as nine already have been this season alone. We don't need marketing tricks or ******* Mark Martin & fake wrestling's Shawn Michaels to get people in the door. I'm supporting a league that has brought the basketball world coaches like Phil Jackson, George Karl, Flip Saunders, I could go on and on. I'm supporting a CBA that makes real stars. Not a league that needs to bring non basketball stars in to sign autographs for everyone from the trailer park that brings a in bottle of ******* to get signed to sell on Ebay to pay for next months pay-per-view bill.
I would welcome Arkansas to the CBA if the owership is legit. That way their great fans could get a product that would deliver legitimate schedules and opponents for an entire season as they deserve. But as of right now, johnnydr87, telling me the ABA is better because it brings in a FAKE pro wrestler (known to most people that live outside of Arkansas) proves even more why the ABA is a fake basketball league. Instead, tell me the ABA finishes the season with all teams it starts with. Tell me it plays out the entire season, and pays it's players and then I will take the CBA off the pedestal I put it on and give the ABA more respect. Maybe the NBA scouts that have called up more players from the CBA than any other minor league will then take the CBA off that pedestal as well. Until then I'll be watching the ABA crumble on oursportscentral.com
By the way johnnydr87, are there any truths to the rumor that the Rimrockers are bringing in Jerry Springer to be the "celebrity 11th" man for the playoffs so he can also film several episodes of his show with your audience after the games?

[rimrockerfan]

Common Sense,

I used to think you had some, though I now question that. For the most part your comments have been lucid and topical, until this latest post.

Perhaps it makes you feel better to run down the fans in Arkansas for supporting their team. I welcome you to attend a Rim Rocker game and see for yourself not only the class of the fans but the quality of the basketball played here. I will even provide the tickets for you.

While the Crain Team, with 9 new car dealerships in Little Rock, 8 radio stations, a TV station, significant real estate investments and more, chose to provide a full family friendly package to fans that included extras for some special nights, that has neither compromised the integrity of the basketball or the enjoyment for the entertainment dollar spent by the fans.

I can appreciate your loyalty to the CBA and I will be the first to agree that the ABA has been a disappointment as a league, until you have been to Alltel arena though and caught a game I am afraid your undue and mean spirited criticism of Arkansans and the team they support is very out of line.

[Houston Caldwell]

CS,
Rimrocker owner Larry Crain owns 3 new-car dealerships in the Little Rock area, plus, from what I have heard, several radio stations; he would, I believe, pass the test of legitimacy as a CBA owner.
The info about NBA rights to ABA name came to me on the www.ABAsite.tk board, from a source I believe would know.
I think David Stern's permission to use the name goes with a desire on his part to have developmental US Basketball the NBA doesn't have to pay for. It also means he could force change in the design of this train wreck.
Stern might think, as George Mikan once said at the first press conference of the ORIGINAL ABA "To heck with this; I'm going to come up here and run this show." I think he has the power; I find it impossible to believe he likes what he sees.

[Shootmaster_44]

Common Sense

Maybe the current CBA teams don't need marketing gimicks to draw in fans. But if my Saskatchewan Hawks had tried a few of them, maybe they will still be in existence. The reason that Arkansas would use Mark Martin and Shawn Michaels to draw fans in is simple. The non-basketball stars bring in fans of these celebs and Arkansas is hoping that they come and see the product and enjoy it and come back. Vince McMahon of WWE fame has a quote: If the WWE runs a show that draws only 1,000 people and causes the WWE to lose money, it is still a success if of those 1,000 people 20 new fans are made.

If you ask me it good business sense to bring them in. If you brought in basketball stars, then the same number of fans who regularly attend Arkansas games would be the only ones who come in. Instead Arkansas is opening themselves up to a wider audience. You can't tell me that CBA teams do not run bobblehead night or tribute to mullets or any other promotion. This is essentially the same thing. The most successful team in minor league baseball, the St. Paul Saints, has built their success on these so called "cheap" marketing tactics. So I wouldn't knock Arkansas for taking a page out of Bill and Mike Veeck's playbook.

[Houston Caldwell]

Rimrocker fan probably lives in the Little Rock area and I don't, so on matters concerning the Crain financial resume', I have made statements, but will defer to Rimrocker Fan as far as accuracy. That Larry Crain is a legit owner in any basketball league is unquestionable.

[Sam Hill]

Dude, hardly anybody can just throw open the doors and watch the tickets fly into people's hands in return for their money. Almost every team in every sport (especially outside the Big Four, and some inside it) has to "resort to cheap gimmicks" to maximize attendance. It's the way of the world. Let's see how well Arkansas would do after a few years of just opening the doors and counting on people to buy what they're selling just for the purity of the game itself after the novelty factor wears off.

[Common Sense]

I am going to take a page from Joe Newman and issue an "open letter" to all residents of Arkansas and Rimrocker fans. I apologize for my comments about your beautiful state and it's fine residents. I took offence to johnnydr87 saying people shouldn't hold the CBA so high. I wasn't directly bashing Arkansas, I was bashing the ABA league itself that prompted him to say I was holding the CBA too high. I believe you the fans that say Arkansas is legit. One can easily get confused with the ABA because if you listened to the leauge and it's releases, you'd be led to think that L.A. was a premier team as well with strong ownership only to find out there are 20 people in the crowd. Now I will believe the hype about Arkansas and their ownership as it came from credible sources, sources that actually have brains and attend the games. I wish the Rimrockers well, however I am not going to back off on my comments about the rest of the league in general. I hope that someday the Rimrockers and their fans can enjoy competing in the CBA or NBDL or any league that is worthy of an organization such as theirs.

[Houston Caldwell]

We come back to the importance of PROMOTION.
I am now the Co_Owner/ COO of the NAFL Nashville Storm, a VERY GOOD Minor league semi-pro football team that was a "Final Four" playoff team out of 105 NAFL teams last year, but struggled at the gate, averaging about 250 fans at home games. I have offered a promo to every HS, Middle School, and Youth team where, at the home game of their choice, they get a $1.00 per ticket group rate and "In The House" PA Announcement for coming to the game IN UNIFORM as a group.
If they use this group special, and 2 or 3 of these guys return to another game at the $7.00 ticket rate, IT WORKED.
This is the point of promotion; If you can't fill every seat in your facility at FULL PRICE, you have NOTHING TO LOSE in these promos.
The Tennessee Titans or UT Football Vols, who sell out every seat, Don't need promos. I DO.
This is not to disrespect the CBA, which IMO is a very good league, but no CBA team sells out their arena at every home game.
Until they do, PROMOTION is a consideration (this, of course, goes quadruple for the ABA).

[Common Sense]

Folks, I understand promotion. I was just pointing out a fact that johnnydr87 should not knock the CBA because Mark Martin & Shawn Michaels haven't shown up for their games. I was trying to point out 9 players have been called up from the CBA and that is also a good draw. Four players have been called up from the Sioux Falls Skyforce alone this season. One of which has started some games already for the Timberwolves. I took the critizism too far, I totally agree with and understand promotion. Another good promotional tool the all ABA teams should use is actually showing up and playing the games they tell their fans they are going to play.

[Houston Caldwell]

Carolina is a no-show for tonight's scheduled game in Nashville, so you have no argument from me on that one.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Yep! An incident like this will really get you in cozy with city government and big business:

http://www.mlive.com/sports/muchronicle/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/110941655417270.xml

Nothing like having your GM insult the mayor of your town to get a first year franchise established in the community. It doesn't get any better. :roll:

This is exactly why minor league basketball is having a hard time finding a foothold. No one seems to be paying attention to history. There are too many under-qualified management types (owners too) out there for one thing. The Michigan Mayhem should have eased Peter Jackson into the job, since this was his first GM position. Would an experienced GM do what he did?

The Mayhem didn't learn anything from the Steelheads' season one and season two experiences with homegrown and inexperienced GM's. Those Steelhead local product GM's should have begun life with the team as interns so they could learn the trade. Instead (and rightfully so), the local people were fired because they didn't get the job done. The Steelheads are suffering community backlash to this very day because those homegrown GM's have lots of angry family and friends that won't let it go.

The Michigan Mayhem could be facing a similar lose/lose scenario.

[Sam Hill]

I'm confused.

An African-American man employed by an African-American woman makes a comment to two Caucasian men and it's a "racial slur?"

What exactly can you say to two white guys? The "h word?" Can anyone even use that word with a straight face?

[lightning fan]

What could he have called the white guys?
Crackers?
Honkies?
*****es?
White Trash?
RedNecks?
RedAsses?
NASCAR fans?
Trailer Trash?
Hicks?
SouthernHicks?
KKKmembers?
GrandWizards?
SugarDaddies?
GoodOldBoys?
Nazis?
Krauts?
SerialKillers?(most serial killers are white middle aged men)
Sexoffenders? see serial killers.
Facists?
Communists?
JimCrows?
Slavedrivers?
Plantation owners?
JohnnyRebs?
Rebels?
Confederates?
Dixies?

I am not sure which are racial slurs or just slurs, or, on the order of slurs hurled at times toward minorities.

On the other hand, if someone used any slur such as used against minorities or listed above, I would feel the recipient would be justified hurling any above listed or implied slurs back at them with vengeance. I would never use racial slurs myself, but, could reluctantly understand if the arguement got out of hand and those words blurted out in anger.

[Houston Caldwell]

You forgot "Jed Clampett". That's a good one.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Then again, the Mayhem GM may not have been addressing the mayor at all. The Mayhem GM may have had a Spike Lee moment after seeing a 6'7" player unable to slam-dunk the ball, causing the GM to turn to the mayor and hurl the ultimate insult, "You bunch of no slam-dunkin', no cornerback playin', no 100 meter dash runnin', Sheryl Crow listenin' to..."

Like I said. A more experienced GM would have known to keep his hand firmly over his mouth and keep Sheryl Crow out of it altogether...Lance Armstrong homewrecker that she actually is! :P

[Tha Man*]

Sorry Ken,

Mr. Jackson has been a GM for two different teams already in the CBA. The Fargo Beez & the Grand Rapids Hoops. This would make his third gig as a GM at least in the CBA.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Dang! I hate it when I get my facts wrong.

I based my opinion on a news article from Muskegon that stated that Jackson was the first minority GM in the CBA. I should have known it was wrong because Gary had two black GM's in their first two seasons.

Then heck! Jackson should have known better.

[rice_web]

Minor league basketball is an investment just like any other. Perhaps the only difference between an investment in a minor league franchise in baseball and a franchise in basketball is that minor-league baseball faces fewer competitors than basketball. As it's already been stated, minor league basketball goes up against the NBA and the NCAA, which makes an already niche market much smaller. Minor league baseball only has itself to compete against.

That said, the investment in either sport is risky and the potential return small. If there were a greater chance at success, more investors would pour in, and we'd see a surge in the number of franchises and leagues. But as it stands, there is little chance of success, so the few owners that do exist are the ones taking a nearly blind risk. Even those that are fully prepared (like the ill-fated Minot Muskies Junior Hockey franchise) are still vulnerable to the tremendous risk of running a franchise. Since these owners are the ones that take great risks, they also usually lack the common sense to avoid the minor league investment arena in the first place. These are usually fringe investors looking for the next gold rush, and the franchises are akin to the products that you'll see advertised on Sunday-morning infomercials.

This is not to say that there are not gems in the minor league field. Franchises like Arkansas are demonstrating great strength, but we don't currently have finance information. For all we know, they could be hemorrhaging badly behind the facade of 10,000 fans. The apparent strength of Arkansas and other franchises is perhaps more a fluke than anything, and brought about by rare owners that are looking for a long-term, steady investment, and not a get-rich-quick scheme from an owner that only owns a store or two and a management crew that has never been a fan of basketball (the XBA debacle).

I would say that yes, minor league basketball is a viable investment and can work. I throw, however, a caveat into the mix. Like any successful investment, it requires devotion, intelligence, humanity, and time. Lots of time. One season is not enough to evaluate a market's potential, and if the business plan does not assume early troubles, then it was never bound to succeed in the first place.

[Houston Caldwell]

Right on the money; we don't have access to the Rimrockers' books (I have been told Mark Martin's appearance cost the Rimrockers $30,000), and they play in a facility more suited to big league franchises (although Alltel has never had a major league tenant), so we have no idea what the cost of THAT is. Suffice it to say, I'm sure the nights the Rimrockers only draw 2K (and there have been some), Alltel looks pretty empty. They may not be making a profit at all (although Larry Crain makes profits on many other businesses, so he can easily absorb rough spots). I think love of the game is a part of the equation for Larry Crain.
I posted at length about this once before; YOU'D BETTER HAVE THE LOVE IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO SPORTS EITHER IN OWNERSHIP OR FRONT OFFICE.

[johnnydr87]

The possibility also exists that David Stern has no idea there is a league (I use that term loosely) using the name ABA. After all, in about 95% of the ABA markets (besides Nashville and Arkansas) most of the residents have no idea there is a league using the ABA name. (Case in point, Los Angeles averaging 20 fans a game)
So johnnydr87 thinks I'm holding the CBA on too high of a pedestal? I really don't think so. Most CBA fans go out to watch the players and coaches that actually can tomorrow be called up to the NBA as nine already have been this season alone. We don't need marketing tricks or ******* Mark Martin & fake wrestling's Shawn Michaels to get people in the door. I'm supporting a league that has brought the basketball world coaches like Phil Jackson, George Karl, Flip Saunders, I could go on and on. I'm supporting a CBA that makes real stars. Not a league that needs to bring non basketball stars in to sign autographs for everyone from the trailer park that brings a in bottle of ******* to get signed to sell on Ebay to pay for next months pay-per-view bill.
I would welcome Arkansas to the CBA if the owership is legit. That way their great fans could get a product that would deliver legitimate schedules and opponents for an entire season as they deserve. But as of right now, johnnydr87, telling me the ABA is better because it brings in a FAKE pro wrestler (known to most people that live outside of Arkansas) proves even more why the ABA is a fake basketball league. Instead, tell me the ABA finishes the season with all teams it starts with. Tell me it plays out the entire season, and pays it's players and then I will take the CBA off the pedestal I put it on and give the ABA more respect. Maybe the NBA scouts that have called up more players from the CBA than any other minor league will then take the CBA off that pedestal as well. Until then I'll be watching the ABA crumble on oursportscentral.com
By the way johnnydr87, are there any truths to the rumor that the Rimrockers are bringing in Jerry Springer to be the "celebrity 11th" man for the playoffs so he can also film several episodes of his show with your audience after the games?


I am going to take a page from Joe Newman and issue an "open letter" to all residents of Arkansas and Rimrocker fans. I apologize for my comments about your beautiful state and it's fine residents. I took offence to johnnydr87 saying people shouldn't hold the CBA so high. I wasn't directly bashing Arkansas, I was bashing the ABA league itself that prompted him to say I was holding the CBA too high. I believe you the fans that say Arkansas is legit. One can easily get confused with the ABA because if you listened to the leauge and it's releases, you'd be led to think that L.A. was a premier team as well with strong ownership only to find out there are 20 people in the crowd. Now I will believe the hype about Arkansas and their ownership as it came from credible sources, sources that actually have brains and attend the games. I wish the Rimrockers well, however I am not going to back off on my comments about the rest of the league in general. I hope that someday the Rimrockers and their fans can enjoy competing in the CBA or NBDL or any league that is worthy of an organization such as theirs.



Wow, I've been away for too long.

Reviewing your posts, it is apparent that you are an incredibly pompous and fanatical about your league.

Really, Common Sense, you must feel proud at how well the CBA is doing. I'm sure whatever team you support in the CBA is pulling in a steady stream of 3,000 fans, give or take, per game.

Sure, it's not comparable to the Rimrockers (who are currently in their first year existence in a league collapsing around them,) but the Rimrockers use cheap tactics, like having Shawn Michaels and Mark Martin to attract people! The CBA would never stoop to such an ungentlemenly form of advertising.

"Not a league that needs to bring non basketball stars in to sign autographs for everyone from the trailer park that brings a in bottle of ******* to get signed to sell on Ebay to pay for next months pay"

Really, you're making yourself look like and dip**** and an *******. The former may be inherent, but come on, you could avoid the latter.

Care to be brave to post the city you live in? It probably wouldn't take much for me to rip apart its people and make ad hominem attacks.

[Common Sense]

johnnydr87, I have already said I am sorry for the tone and the attack on the people of Arkansas and Rimrocker fans. It was out of line, but it's not hard to be that way watching a league that is so over the top out of control. I really hope the Rimrockers get out of the ABA and look into getting into one of the only two basketball leagues that I can see are legit outside of the NBA. The CBA because it's been around for over a half century (not always without trouble) or the NBDL (because of it's NBA backing). The fans and organization deserve much better than the ABA provides them.
One other side note, the CBA just had it's 10th & 11th call ups of this year. This time to the New York Knicks. Does this make me pompous or fanatical about the CBA to report this? No, just telling it like it is.
I get upset at the ABA as it is ruining the name of feeder league basketball into the ground, wrecking potential markets for future expansion for real leagues and pushing good players overseas as they think all U.S. minor leagues screw them over. That is why I get upset at and why I get on the case of anyone supporting that league and it's almost criminal activity. St. Louis now says that fans that had tickets to the final regular season games of this season that won't be played (as the league again cuts it's season short) will get tickets to next year's games in exchange. Wow, that's a nice trade off. I say give the people their money back as there probably won't be a team next year!!!!!! I guess I shouldn't care, there probably were only 15-20 fans with tickets anyway, but it's the the point of it all. I don't like seeing people get screwed and most teams in this league are doing just that. In the Rimrockers case, they are doing a good job, but the team and it's fans are still getting screwed over by the rest of the league. It has to stop. Don't complain to me, tell the ownership to apply to a different, established league and enjoy your team.

[mzracing76]

I am another one that supports the CBA. The CBA is the Premier Developemental League in basketball today. IT is better than the NBA's NBDL by a long shot. It gets 2500-3500 fans a game, and we of the CBA have all the Hype, Glory, and Clout that it carries. The NBA Scouts know where to look, the Players know where to look, and the Coaches know where to go, and the Referees know which league gets them to the NBA. Not even that, even Our CBA Executives, Cheerleaders, Mascots get a shot at the NBA (ex: Sioux Falls Skyforce). Yes, the CBA has had its share of bad luck, but we fight thru it and get better/stronger.

I have no hard feelings about the ABA. I wish them all the luck. but it has taken the CBA over 50 years to get to where they are, and we arent letting anyone stand in our way. I thnk the ABA is making a big mistake going into these big markets like LA, Boston, etc. The CBA tried this and Failed. that is waht got us in trouble financially in the first place. But now the CBA has learned from this, and are now placing teams in Ideal Markets (90,000 - 200,000 populated cities). Albany is making a return to the CBA, Grand Rapids will soon follow, and i hear there is a team in Washington (Bellevue) that wants to join soon also. The CBA forces these expansion clubs to wait 1 year before they begin play, and that is the best thing to do.

MZ

[Pounder]

Bellevue = Seattle, or close enough. It wasn't a good idea in the first place, especially if Michael Tuckman was going to put the team in a community college gym. Abandoning the CBA for the ABA very much shows where he was headed with the concept. Heck, Ken probably knows better than I do, and I have relatives in Bellevue.

I do think the CBA is a bit of a beggar when it comes to placing expansion franchises. They're not really in a position to discriminate. Neither is any other minor basketball league, but I digress. Yes, the CBA is in the best financial position, but given the competition, that's not saying a whole lot.