Time to get the smoke out of your eyes!!

[blanketman]

This is David Mccarthy in chicago giving the novice and the expert arena football fans the insight they need after this terrible snow job threatened to ruin the great sport of indoor football!I will explain the afl was just a blown out of porportion [talent wise] salary bloated broken business model which the afl owners will never recover from!!Reason with the paltry tv deal with espn trade for commercials!and they have to sell the comercials to potential sponsors in no way will support an!! out of wack players union!! with a 2 million to 4 million in payroll and insurance cost model set up for each team even owners like jerry jones and pat bolan are not goin to put up with that kind of money hemoraging! theres just not the lucrative tv deals and sponsor deals the the nfl are accustomed to to support this huge misconception of talent that mr david baker sold to the public!!truth is i myself have had proof of that by moving up one of my players mr rob schroeder to the afl and in his first year with the austin wranglers he made the afl all rookie team! meanwhile back at the ranch i had no less then 8 of his teamates making 200 a game that were much better then him!!which here lies my case in point!!it was all smoke and mirrors that mr baker sold to the public that the afl was the league as far as talent and this was just not true !!so he blew this smoke to all the millionaire owners of this league and put in the bloated and hugely overrated suppose afl talent wrapped it in a bow and gave this supository to the afl owners also blowing smoke that these teams were worth 20 million a piece!!after the burning of countless of number of teams and cities and the down turn of the economy they ran out of supply of what him and mr jerry kurse of the same fee absorbantant model would call "the next suckers" he started to see the writing on the wall packed all his sucker money funds he collected over the years and left the carcuss last year to rot on its own while he took the golden parashute! you people starting to see through the smoke yet!!!good lord i can put those guys together like the cheap watch that they where! that said the IFL is poised to do it right the players can make the money when they actually get moved up but for now a workable business model and an inexpensive and great fan expierience while the great young athletes try and move up will be the order of the day!!the days of these 35 year old over the hill arena football lifers fleecing the owners and the fans at the gate are gone!!IN SUMATION INDOOR FOOTBALL MAINLY THE "IFL" IS INDOOR FOOTBALLS NEW GOLDEN AGE!

[preeths]

You know, the classy thing would be to recognize the AFL for getting the ball rolling on this whole football indoors thing and to recognize that a lot of real people are out of a job right now, not just players but other team employees as well. Just sayin'...

[exit322]

Yeah, Paul. That would require class. As well you know...the Raiders lack that.

[Bruiser]

Hmmmppph. Nothing new Mac. A lot of us already knew what you're blubbering.
Indoor football isn't rocket science.
What is bothersome though is you are picking up right where Baker's BS left off.
Smoke & mirrors indeed. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[nksports]

... with a 2 million to 4 million in payroll ...

That's one to eight (depending on year, position and talent) NFL players.

[blanketman]

here let me get you a bottle of snap out of it pills!!you cannot pay these guys that kind of money without goin in the poor house! that said we all know exit 322 and bruiser are just guys that sit at home eat doritos and find negatives in everything applying to indoor football! bottom line they are just delusional fans and good bless them because what they say and think dont matter!!look guys i know the truth hurts but thats exactly whats goin on in the afl !!yes i think baker had some good intent in the beginning but surley he let greed take that good intention away in the manner of absorbadant fees and breaking the bank on just regular players talents blown out of porportion and big name coaches[example grudens brother] the league could ill afford!!just by the cities and owners he,s burned getting to the end of the chain!so face it has nothing to do with bieng classless and everything to do with doing it right this time!

[Bruiser]

...sit at home eat doritos...
Guilty as charged.

But we've known about the AFL's trouble with their CBA and no significant revenue to support it for a number of years already. Tell us something we didnt see coming.

And I make jest of the Rai-duh management not for their prowess in putting together a great product on the field (for this level of ball anyway) but for the outright lies they spew. It's one thing to have confidence in your organization but the BS you guys spit forth is laughable if not for the fact that some people are gullible enough to believe it. Your league misleads folks by mentioning ESPN TV contract talks when you know darn well the only talks you people had was with the receptionist hanging up on you. The funny thing is you sit and negatively comment on the AFL but don't even realize your IFL have just as much baloney coming out of your mouths as they did. So, until there is truth in advertising with indoor ball, ESPECIALLY the IFL, consider the thorns in your side on these boards your personal Ralph Naders. We're just keeping it real my man.

[Caballo Diablo]

truth is i myself have had proof of that by moving up one of my players mr rob schroeder to the afl and in his first year with the austin wranglers he made the afl all rookie team! meanwhile back at the ranch i had no less then 8 of his teamates making 200 a game that were much better then him!!which here lies my case in point!!!

PARAGRAPHS ARE YOUR FRIEND !!!
My god, were you absent from school that day?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, smoke and mirrors, salary cap out of whack, TV money and big advertising money, foolish financial structure, there are many AFL fans that have been preaching that for years. Tell us something we don't kbow - lol.

You were doing pretty good until you brought Rob into the court room as evidence. No less than 8 players better than Rob, put the bong down.
Would those 8 players like to make the kind of paychecks Rob was making or was the $200 enough? Maybe the NFL, CFL, and AFL, coaches, scouts and GM's should sign up for your talent evaluation course - lol.

It's your opinion they were better, Rob's move to the AFL means lots of people thought he was better. The paycheck difference for a similar job means he was better. Rob is a totally different person on and off the field, one of the nicest guys you could meet. Kind of quiet off the field.

If you had AT LEAST 8 guys better seems like you would blow through the season and playoffs to easily win the championship. It's a fact that there are some very talented players that slip under the radar in all sports and all leagues,
but 8 ON THE SAME TEAM, AT THE SAME TIME ! Surly you jest.

If you want to smack the business blunders go for it, but don't use it for cover to put forth your agenda on which is a better style of entertainment.
Maybe you should compare the af2 and indoor, we'll have to see how the IFL shapes up, after all it does combine the two best indoor leagues.

Individually, which is all we have proof of at the moment, neither the UIF or Intense league had a team that could compete with any AFL team, even the worst one. How many TV deal did either of those leagues have? How did the attendance compare between those leagues? Did either of thos leagues have national celebrities buy or promote their teams?

Yes, the financial and business plans were rife with problems. But as already stated it was the most known and popular of all 50 yard leagues. This helps ALL of the Indoor leagues promotionally.

Adding lies and foolishness to your post discredits the better points and renders the entire thing to the waste basket for most readers.

[LZakow]

Paul:

Allow me to be a voice of reason here. Forgive me if I'm in your face about this fans, but I've seen this movie before and the outcome is the same. Scenario: owners see a product extension and yell whoopie as they see nothing but green. Consulting group is brought in and paints a wonderful, rosey picturre of what could be. Within a year all the safeguards you think are in place begin to crumble and the monetary losses are twice, or three times what you expected. The only way to salvage this is to admit more teams in thereby bloating the process. People rant and scream "oh s__t! We didn't do our due diligence and ran after the greenback!" Uh, yeah. Duh. In addition your arrogance cost you in the you approached companies and said "Here we are. Now pay up." Companies realizing some of the reasoning may be flawed back off and offer half what the league wanted. Nevertheless there comes the great press release that says "Yes we are together! Woo Hoo!" Guess what - that was the USFL and to a degree, NFL Europe (or the WLAF). The Arena League was woefully wrong in letting Jerry Jones and Thomas Benson and Bud Adams dictate policy. Instead of giving propos to people like Casey Wasserman and Jon Bon Jovie as smart, astute business people which they are, they constantly harped on Bon Jovie the rocker and legend John Elway and the caustic Mike Ditka. Instead, what should have happened is to create cooperative partnerships with everything from TV to gear as well as the arenas they play in. Tamping down expectations would have helped. So would a "worst case scenario." Also, when you allow 46 cities (sorry, forgot Salt Lake in another post) to have franchises in 22 years, that's ineptitude. What you need to say to owners is worst case scenario - expect this much in losses. We need this much money to create our own packaged network deal to sell to versus or Fox or TBS or Spike in addition to ESPN/ABC. We need to have a department that overseas rec leagues at places like the Chelsea Piers in NY. We need to have a creative department that does team identities, video programming, presentations, etc. We need to scout colleges for players we deem appropriate for the game. We need eight solid franchises with committments for a minimum of three years. and a two-year letter of credit. We need to be professional and promotional. Stick with eight-ten committed franchises: New York, LA, Philly, Dallas, Grand Rapids, Chicago, San Jose, Tampa and Orlando.

Instead you got franchises like Austin that disappeared overnight (ditto Oklahoma and others) and idiot owners like the Garden in New York, and Charles Wang and . . . I could go on.

You know and I know they ain't comming back.

[Pounder]

Smoke, not here. Lots of snow, yes... by Portland standards.

Just a thought... did the NFL owners get snowed by Baker, or did they have their own vision? I highly doubt that men who know their business didn't do due diligence. That whole spiel also assumes Baker had the power there, something I doubt once single entity died the first time.

Did their vision falter, or did they carry it through? Know what I'm saying? This could be about reducing the cost of the "reserve talent pool." It could also be about "no way were we staying on for single entity, especially one failing to materialize." There's a small possibility they got snookered, though recent events (Madoff scandal) show that maybe my premise could have a flawed assumption.

Maybe Baker ran off with something, maybe he simply abandoned the sinking ship trying to rescue a reputation that wasn't all there to begin with.

[LZakow]

The NFL does to a degree. Jerry Jones does. He is an astute business man. Benson? Not so much. Blank? I met him. Let's just say I was not impressed. Michael Vick was always a troubled player - personality wise. You could see it coming. Bud Adams? You are kidding, right? Only people like Adams and Ralph Wilson in Buffalo would say something negative about NFL Europe without actually have gone over to see a game, much less have their teams involved in an international game (and no Canada and Mexico don't count).

Was Baker blowing smoke up their hinds? I doubt it. If he was he ran a hell of a shell game. He was devoted and committed and full of energy. I've met the man several times. I think he was a hard worker. But then again they said the same things about Bernie Madoff, didn't they? Not until a book comes out on the level of the $3 League will we know the real story. Was it the owners who conned him or he who conned the owners? Was there any conning involved? I really don't know. I do know Jerry Jones would not have aligned with a venture he didn't believe he was going to make money from. Neither would Robert Kraft. Dan Snyder? Not so much.

Best to ask those involved.

[nksports]

I don't have the inside connections some of these people claim (I did spend about 30 seconds in an elevator with Lamar Hunt, so there's my name drop), but as an observation, I've found a lot of NFL owners to be incredibly short-sighted.

A lot of the owners complained about how much money they lost with NFL-Europe, even though it was often less than the cost of one high-end player (I can pay 100 NFL-E players $20,000 a season for the same cost of one NFL player costing me $2,000,000 a year. I can pay 20 high-end AFL players for the same cost.) When you look at NFL rosters and see how many NFL-E players there were, even with those losses, that was a bargain. While there are probably not as many, AFL players have made NFL rosters and some of those players have made significant impacts.

Not all players are ready to play in the NFL right after college. That is reality. Some take a few years to get there. A lot of the owners like using the colleges as their minor league. For more than a century, major league baseball owners have footed the bill for player development, realizing for what some players cost for an entire year, they can fund their entire minor-league organization and it has worked well.

The belief was, when NFL-E folded, that slack would be taken up by the AFL. Now that the AFL is (at least for the moment) defunct, it will be interesting to see what takes up the slack. A lot of these proposed outdoor leagues seem to shaky to survive. The CFL may be more in play to take up the slack, but it spent years trying to distance itself from the NFL so it could stand on its own feet.

Here endith the rant.

[Bruiser]

Not player is ready to play in the NFL right after college. That is reality. Some take a few years to get there. A lot of the owners like using the colleges as their minor league. For more than a century, major league baseball owners have footed the bill for player development, realizing for what some players cost for an entire year, they can fund their entire minor-league organization and it has worked well.

The belief was, when NFL-E folded, that slack would be taken up by the AFL. Now that the AFL is (at least for the moment) defunct, it will be interesting to see what takes up the slack. A lot of these proposed outdoor leagues seem to shaky to survive. The CFL may be more in play to take up the slack, but it spent years trying to distance itself from the NFL...
Who's belief? There are a miniscule amount of arena players that ever make the move up to the bigs and even less than that who have some sort of impact in the NFL. The plan was NEVER to have the AFL supplant NFL-E except in the minds of those who live day to day in wishful thinking.

And yes there are many college kids that are NFL ready right out of school, Matt Forte immediately comes to mind. Believe, it... a helluva a lot more rookies from the college ranks are ready to play big-time ball than some dude bouncing around in the arena/indoor ranks (Bobby Sippio for instance).

[LZakow]

You know, I've talked with Carl Peterson and his aides several times. The cost to the NFL per team per year for NFL E was $500,000. When you consider that the NFL never and I mean never took into account how much the Germans and Brits and Scots and others spent on NFL E games. So the stands didn't have 40,000 fans. So what. How long did it take the NFL to get there. Did the NFL understand the meeting of technology and the game? To a degree yes and to a degree no.

Unlike the US, with teams located within hours of each other, fans were happy to hop a train and go from Frankfurt to Dusseldorf or Dusseldorf to Amsterdam. Here's the catch. The league didn't do anything to grow those numbers. How about a co-branded credit card that gave perks and points when taking DB Rail? Air Berlin (Dusseldorf to Scotland - 1 hour)? Falke sports clothing? Pompea Sports clothing? Those that did show up for games spent lots. How do I know this? I was there. It seemed everyone had bought a jersey or some sort of team-related gear. Some made the trip to Tampa for training camp (and why the Storm and NFL E take that opportunity to build a strongwer fan base, I'll never know.) Did you know that there are many German fans who come to the US during the fall and do a football trip? Three weeks - the northwest loop is popular. Notre Dame, Ohio State, Cleveland, Chicago, Green Bay, Minnesota. I knew one dude who bought a time share in Arizona in December so he could go to see the Chargers and Cardinals. He also did a USC game. If you know fans are going to spend money like that, why not grow that?

Owners like Al Davis, Ralph Wilson, Bud Adams hated the league from what I was told. Yet these people never took the time to go see the product overseas. If you are spending $500,000, shouldn't you see what you are spending it on?

When I met Arthur Blank in Dusseldorf, I didn't think he got it. He observed the fans at Arena AufShalke and shrugged. The noise was defening that afternoon - that with 42,000 people. I don't think he understood the enormous opportunity he had in front of him. The next day he was quoted in USA Today as saying the AFL was a better investment. Go figure. And he was one of the ones who wanted to shutter the AFL?

In the case of the owners, even dare I say whoring themselves to a private equity firm smacks of desperation. I don't think much of private equity or hedge funds for that matter. Did they think Platinum was going to just give them money? Oh yes, and about that business model that is broken. Um, what business model? The one where you move every year from city to city? Basically the owners were not smart enough to strategically partner with companies. When I mean partner, I mean we come up with a joint product or idea or promotion and we both invest in it and have ownership of it. We grow together. I think the "economic model" they speak of is one that says to the players "please save us from ourselves." Its just dumb. And in the end the fans and players get it in the back. I don't know why Casey Wasserman can't go to Staples Center and say "we have a problem, this is what we need to do. Are you willing to work with us?" Staples Centre, seeing eight or so empty dates would probably say yes. As for ESPN, screw 'em. You don't want to televise a 6 team league? Go to Fox. Go to Versus. Go to Spike. Go to TNT. Come up with something innovative.

As for growing the game as a participant sport, there was plenty that the league could have done but did not. For example, we have Chelsea Piers here in NYC, a facility that has turf and fields and hosts rec soccer and lacrosse seven days a week. You mean to tell me the AFL couldn't help start a rec league? You mean to tell me the Dragons couldn't practice one day every two weeks and have it open to the public? You mean to tell me when you had teams in Buffalo, Albany, NYC and Jersey you couldn't open the season with those four squaring off in a round robin of sorts to build a rivalry? C'mon people! Rocket science this isn't.

As for the NFL, I think the NBA has slowly and smartly cultivated the international aspect of the game. The took a page out of the NFL's book and did them better. Even the NHL, whom I have disrespect for, was smart to open the season in Prague and Sweden as well as have the Winter Classic.

As John Lennon would say, Strange Times Indeed.

[Jamie]

PARAGRAPHS ARE YOUR FRIEND !!!
My god, were you absent from school that day?

I generally do not bother to read any post that goes on longer than about four lines without a line break or some other reasonably coherent order. If the author is incapable of writing in a fashion that is orderly, what he has to say is guaranteed to be just as confused and blathery.

[LZakow]

Yeah, whatever.

If you have something important to add, do so.

Don't waste my time or others with your nonsense.

[jwalters]

I blame David Baker. I always have and always will. Let's suppose Jim Foster retired from his leadership position and could not be lured back. Weren't there several people who were more deserving than that two-bit wrestling promoter. I personally would have preferred Gene Nudo, Denny Petro, or Mouse Davis. These were guys who were familiar with the league front office and had years of experience in pro football. Any of them could have kept the league going in the right direction. But hell it's all gone now. I don't suppose it does much good to gripe.

[preeths]

They would have still had to deal with the players union and skyrocketing salaries. That's the crux of the problem.

[Bruiser]

They would have still had to deal with the players union and skyrocketing salaries. That's the crux of the problem.
Exactly.

You should be blaming the fans for not watching the AFL broadcasts
en masse and producing all the big time TV advertising revenue that
was supposed to justify the ever escalating sal cap.

Stupid fans. It's all their fault. (cue Exit)

[BananaCat]

You know, I've talked with Carl Peterson and his aides several times. The cost to the NFL per team per year for NFL E was $500,000. When you consider that the NFL never and I mean never took into account how much the Germans and Brits and Scots and others spent on NFL E games. So the stands didn't have 40,000 fans. So what. How long did it take the NFL to get there. Did the NFL understand the meeting of technology and the game? To a degree yes and to a degree no.

Unlike the US, with teams located within hours of each other, fans were happy to hop a train and go from Frankfurt to Dusseldorf or Dusseldorf to Amsterdam. Here's the catch. The league didn't do anything to grow those numbers. How about a co-branded credit card that gave perks and points when taking DB Rail? Air Berlin (Dusseldorf to Scotland - 1 hour)? Falke sports clothing? Pompea Sports clothing? Those that did show up for games spent lots. How do I know this? I was there. It seemed everyone had bought a jersey or some sort of team-related gear. Some made the trip to Tampa for training camp (and why the Storm and NFL E take that opportunity to build a strongwer fan base, I'll never know.) Did you know that there are many German fans who come to the US during the fall and do a football trip? Three weeks - the northwest loop is popular. Notre Dame, Ohio State, Cleveland, Chicago, Green Bay, Minnesota. I knew one dude who bought a time share in Arizona in December so he could go to see the Chargers and Cardinals. He also did a USC game. If you know fans are going to spend money like that, why not grow that?

Owners like Al Davis, Ralph Wilson, Bud Adams hated the league from what I was told. Yet these people never took the time to go see the product overseas. If you are spending $500,000, shouldn't you see what you are spending it on?

When I met Arthur Blank in Dusseldorf, I didn't think he got it. He observed the fans at Arena AufShalke and shrugged. The noise was defening that afternoon - that with 42,000 people. I don't think he understood the enormous opportunity he had in front of him. The next day he was quoted in USA Today as saying the AFL was a better investment. Go figure. And he was one of the ones who wanted to shutter the AFL?
I totally agree as far as the NFL owners not doing much about Tagliabue's vision for growing the game overseas. I was over there as well and the German's were without a doubt the best overseas fans of any country outside of the United States. Most NFL owners couldn't care less. Even now, the NFL is courting England (ref: London regular season games) instead of Germany and Germany has way more support than England ever did. The NFL and the owners let a golden opportunity slip by when they didn't market NFL Europa (essentially NFL Germany at the end).

[blanketman]

PARAGRAPHS ARE YOUR FRIEND !!!
My god, were you absent from school that day?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, smoke and mirrors, salary cap out of whack, TV money and big advertising money, foolish financial structure, there are many AFL fans that have been preaching that for years. Tell us something we don't kbow - lol.

You were doing pretty good until you brought Rob into the court room as evidence. No less than 8 players better than Rob, put the bong down.
Would those 8 players like to make the kind of paychecks Rob was making or was the $200 enough? Maybe the NFL, CFL, and AFL, coaches, scouts and GM's should sign up for your talent evaluation course - lol.

It's your opinion they were better, Rob's move to the AFL means lots of people thought he was better. The paycheck difference for a similar job means he was better. Rob is a totally different person on and off the field, one of the nicest guys you could meet. Kind of quiet off the field.

If you had AT LEAST 8 guys better seems like you would blow through the season and playoffs to easily win the championship. It's a fact that there are some very talented players that slip under the radar in all sports and all leagues,
but 8 ON THE SAME TEAM, AT THE SAME TIME ! Surly you jest.

If you want to smack the business blunders go for it, but don't use it for cover to put forth your agenda on which is a better style of entertainment.
Maybe you should compare the af2 and indoor, we'll have to see how the IFL shapes up, after all it does combine the two best indoor leagues.

Individually, which is all we have proof of at the moment, neither the UIF or Intense league had a team that could compete with any AFL team, even the worst one. How many TV deal did either of those leagues have? How did the attendance compare between those leagues? Did either of thos leagues have national celebrities buy or promote their teams?

Yes, the financial and business plans were rife with problems. But as already stated it was the most known and popular of all 50 yard leagues. This helps ALL of the Indoor leagues promotionally.

Adding lies and foolishness to your post discredits the better points and renders the entire thing to the waste basket for most readers.
Cabo, Im not on this board alot. First time i read it. Unfortunately, for us ,the raiders ,these quotes kept Rob Schroeder away from the raiders this year. He signed with a very good bloomington team .Some other person was on my computer in chicago at the time. I wish the xtreme and rob all the best this year.You are right he is quiet , but very good.