Minor league basketball died July 9, 2008

[a1sports]

The CBA and ABA have been talking about interleague play. The CBA= the ABA, 2 rec leagues.

RIP minor league basketball

Only 2 pro leagues left in the USA,, the D-league and the PBL

[FrontOffice]

CBA owners voted that idea down

[TheStandard]

doing anything with the ABA spells DOOM.

[formerlyknownasfells]

So what is going on with the CBA right now? I haven't had much time at all to look into the state of the league with my move, running a Little League tournament and trying to stay sane.

Will they be around next year and with how many teams?

[psbf]

you have not missed anything. If you know that Atlanta has become Augusta and switched to the PBL, that Albany is looking for more season ticket holders, that RGV is in debt of $70,000 to their Arena, that Yakima and the Montana teams will not be back and that the remaining teams include; the Xplosion, the Miners, the Skyrockets and the Cavalry, you are up to date.

[bdyer]

The CBA and ABA have been talking about interleague play. The CBA= the ABA, 2 rec leagues.

RIP minor league basketball

Only 2 pro leagues left in the USA,, the D-league and the PBLI wouldn't even count the PBL at this point.

[a1sports]

The fact that the CBA and ABA even had discussions about interleague play shows the desperation the CBA is in. To even talk to Joe knowing what the world knows about him cries of desperation.

Also, the owners voted the idea down............for now.

There are maybe 5 CBA teams still breathing.

Call any of the semi-living CBA teams and they will tell you they have no idea if they are playing this season.

pikesville @ minot. really doesnt do anything for anyone.

[formerlyknownasfells]

The fact that the CBA and ABA even had discussions about interleague play shows the desperation the CBA is in. To even talk to Joe knowing what the world knows about him cries of desperation.

Also, the owners voted the idea down............for now.

There are maybe 5 CBA teams still breathing.

Call any of the semi-living CBA teams and they will tell you they have no idea if they are playing this season.

pikesville @ minot. really doesnt do anything for anyone.

At this point, I think it is a good idea just so the teams can play some games. We all know the leagues are in trouble, but the fact they could actually play some decent competition.

Just playing devil's advocate is all.

[Chuck the Writer]

Would not happen in a thousand years.

First off, do you really think that Demetrius Ford (Florida Pit Bulls) and Jay Fiedler (Indiana Alley Cats) would ever go back to the ABA? After all the poisoning and market-mucking Joe Newman did to them? After the hostile e-mails Joe sent to Demetrius about making Brutus look good? To then go back and be part of a media blitz by Joe about morality and seeing the error of their ways? Not a chance.

Add this - the CBA is part of USABasketball, and would not be participating in any interleague anything with a non-USAB league.

This is just another one of a1sports' fantasy posts. He cites no sources, he posts no links, it's just another one of his "I'm the best source for minor league information out there, I'm better than you, you're not as good as me, trust me for information" posts that have gotten stale like three-year-old Twinkies.

If he can't cite the source, you must consider the source.

[zeke41]

It looks like it is going to be a very, VERY interesting season next year. I hope all of my off-season hard work pays off somehow...man, I'm ready to GO! This is madness.

[psbf]

I don't know how there are 5 teams! Only 4 that I know of who are current.

[a1sports]

Hey Chuckie. Ask you buddy in Albany there, Mr, Coyne, then you can e-mail me an apology. This is the one and only time I will share with you where the info came from. If you were in the "know"...which after the past year I know you are not, you would have heard through other sources as I did that the CBA and ABA talked about interleague play.

(yawn) awaiting your apology !!

Please go write another story about a toy and win an award, you are a good writer. Lets leave it at that.

[formerlyknownasfells]

Hey Chuckie. Ask you buddy in Albany there, Mr, Coyne, then you can e-mail me an apology. This is the one and only time I will share with you where the info came from. If you were in the "know"...which after the past year I know you are not, you would have heard through other sources as I did that the CBA and ABA talked about interleague play.

(yawn) awaiting your apology !!

Please go write another story about a toy and win an award, you are a good writer. Lets leave it at that.

Waiting for a response from Chuck in 3......2......1........

[a1sports]

Here Chris, let me answer for Chuck............

Scoop Diamond named media agent for Utica Wreckers.

Deaf and blind amputee Scoop Diamond was named media agent for the Wreckers at a press conference today at midnight. Scoop didnt know the difference as the wreckers didnt pay the utility bills. His frist press release was approved by the Gwizzles and as usual the brail was placed in the wrong position. When asked by the janitor and night watchman through a special vibrating device located on scoops ear if he liked his new job. Scoop replied> "ahd leek cheeese width dat booger and freyes"

[formerlyknownasfells]

Here Chris, let me answer for Chuck............

Scoop Diamond named media agent for Utica Wreckers.

Deaf and blind amputee Scoop Diamond was named media agent for the Wreckers at a press conference today at midnight. Scoop didnt know the difference as the wreckers didnt pay the utility bills. His frist press release was approved by the Gwizzles and as usual the brail was placed in the wrong position. When asked by the janitor and night watchman through a special vibrating device located on scoops ear if he liked his new job. Scoop replied> "ahd leek cheeese width dat booger and freyes"

Eh, I give it a two on a ten scale as the spelling is off and doesn't come close to the original story line.

[wellington]

a1sports = *yawn*

[a1sports]

Your too kind Chris...Id give it a zero..the same grade Id give Chuck for his information gathering and sources in the basketball world. SO easy for him to comment on someones post but difficult for him to build a list of excellent contacts for info.

I heard he was buddy buddy with Doyle. then where is any info on the PBL?
How about any info on anything basketball related?

[formerlyknownasfells]

Your too kind Chris...Id give it a zero..the same grade Id give Chuck for his information gathering and sources in the basketball world. SO easy for him to comment on someones post but difficult for him to build a list of excellent contacts for info.

I heard he was buddy buddy with Doyle. then where is any info on the PBL?
How about any info on anything basketball related?

Actually, he is as good as they come. Watch the personal attacks A1.

[not so fast]

The CBA has been looking into a lot of things in the off season, and exhibition games with ABA being one of them, but it was totally rejected. When you don't have a lot of teams, you have to look at other avenues, so they were bouncing around a lot of different scenerios, but that does not mean the League has come to any level down to the aba status.

Minor league basketball has been in trouble for awhile, and it continues to get worse. With the aau mentality saturating our country, it has created rise to people who think you can run a pro basketball team like a aau team for thier 13 year old son.

The real good basketball people who used to be involved with basketball, are now either in the D-league, a few are in the CBA, and a couple are spattered thoughout the rest of these generic leagues.

I would like to know, how many people who are coaching or in management in the ibl,aba,cba, and pbl, ever saw a minorleague game of basketball in, lets say in the 90's or even as late as 2001. How many ever saw a game, talked with a GM back then or held a conversation with a basketball operations person, and talked with these people on how the operations runs, and what the process is to getting quality players and quality play.

It is simply a shame what has happened to basketball, in terms of minorleagues here in the states. More has been less when it comes to basketball.

And I include myself when it comes to this criticism, I mean I was an assistant in the ibl a few years ago, heck ther is no way in the 90,s that I would have been any where near the bench of a CBA team unless I bought a season ticket.

Standards, what has happened?

I my friends, like to keep it real!

[formerlyknownasfells]

The CBA has been looking into a lot of things in the off season, and exhibition games with ABA being one of them, but it was totally rejected. When you don't have a lot of teams, you have to look at other avenues, so they were bouncing around a lot of different scenerios, but that does not mean the League has come to any level down to the aba status.

Minor league basketball has been in trouble for awhile, and it continues to get worse. With the aau mentality saturating our country, it has created rise to people who think you can run a pro basketball team like a aau team for thier 13 year old son.

The real good basketball people who used to be involved with basketball, are now either in the D-league, a few are in the CBA, and a couple are spattered thoughout the rest of these generic leagues.

I would like to know, how many people who are coaching or in management in the ibl,aba,cba, and pbl, ever saw a minorleague game of basketball in, lets say in the 90's or even as late as 2001. How many ever saw a game, talked with a GM back then or held a conversation with a basketball operations person, and talked with these people on how the operations runs, and what the process is to getting quality players and quality play.

It is simply a shame what has happened to basketball, in terms of minorleagues here in the states. More has been less when it comes to basketball.

And I include myself when it comes to this criticism, I mean I was an assistant in the ibl a few years ago, heck ther is no way in the 90,s that I would have been any where near the bench of a CBA team unless I bought a season ticket.

Standards, what has happened?

I my friends, like to keep it real!

It is interesting, before the Frost Heaves came to Vermont, I had never seen a minor league basketball game. From what I have seen in the last three years, the level of play is good, but not what it is overseas.

Now, to pose a question to everyone: What will it take for minor league basketball to be a success in the US? Will it take merging of leagues, somehow getting everyone together and creating the same system baseball has, or something else?

To me minor league basketball can succeed, it just hasn't been done right. Other than the D-League, there isn't any sort of feeder system to the NBA, and there isn't any real solid development.

What I would love to see is something like the D-League be similar to AAA, the PBL AA, and maybe the IBL as Single A. Let the Almost Basketball Association either die or leave them as an independent league similar to the GBL and the Can-Am League.

If minor league teams were affiliated with an NBA team, there would be more money coming in to their affiliates and therefore more stability with their teams.

Just throwing it out there.....

[tops804]

Isn't the CBA one of the "mean-spirited", "Unethical", "Immoral" leagues that
Joe Newman rants about on his weekly gabfest during the winter?

If what A1Sports is saying is true, I have to believe that the CBA has
fallen to ABA level. This could serve no real purpose for them other than to
hang on for another season and hope the PBL decides to merge with what
few CBA teams have survived this off-season. In that case, the teams would
be better off to jump now, or not at all. We don't need five Atlanta Krunks
playing a bunch of rec. teams, that may not even show up for scheduled games,
for another winter.

[tops804]

Minor league basketball has been in trouble for awhile, and it continues to get worse.

It is interesting, before the Frost Heaves came to Vermont, I had never seen a minor league basketball game...

Can we seperate one thing here? Are we talking "minor league", or "semi-pro"?
When building a marketing plan and following, there is a difference. With
basketball, I would believe that the NBDL is the only true minor league.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

It is interesting, before the Frost Heaves came to Vermont, I had never seen a minor league basketball game. From what I have seen in the last three years, the level of play is good, but not what it is overseas.

Now, to pose a question to everyone: What will it take for minor league basketball to be a success in the US? Will it take merging of leagues, somehow getting everyone together and creating the same system baseball has, or something else?

To me minor league basketball can succeed, it just hasn't been done right. Other than the D-League, there isn't any sort of feeder system to the NBA, and there isn't any real solid development.

What I would love to see is something like the D-League be similar to AAA, the PBL AA, and maybe the IBL as Single A. Let the Almost Basketball Association either die or leave them as an independent league similar to the GBL and the Can-Am League.

If minor league teams were affiliated with an NBA team, there would be more money coming in to their affiliates and therefore more stability with their teams.

Just throwing it out there.....

Feeder systems to the major leagues are overrated. Look at the American Association, Atlantic League, and Northern League of independent baseball. Successful. Only a handful of hardcore fans are interested in who and who isn't affiliated with the NBA. The rest of us fans are there for the atmosphere. It's going to take owners with actual deep pockets and a vision to give minor league basketball more credibility. The only problem is those type of potential owners are already putting their money into the fastest growing indoor sport...Ultimate Fighting (mixed martial arts).

[psbf]

Aside from a1, I don't see too many posters associating the CBA with the ABA. I feel that the A has far too many problems to be referred to any other league. While there may be some who want to compare the leagues, I only see the CBA as standing alone. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but at least this league does not keep accepting franchises from unknown owners, while using a bicentenial-colored ball.

[bectond]

Feeder systems to the major leagues are overrated. Look at the American Association, Atlantic League, and Northern League of independent baseball. Successful. Only a handful of hardcore fans are interested in who and who isn't affiliated with the NBA. The rest of us fans are there for the atmosphere. It's going to take owners with actual deep pockets and a vision to give minor league basketball more credibility.

I disagree for the following reasons. (1) Leagues have to attract owners that would not mind receiving a nice tax write off. Each new team should have 20-25 co-owners, and each team should have an annual budget of more than 800K. If Losses don't exceed 300K and each owner could write of a portion of the 15K loss. Asking one person to assume 300K in losses each year is not reasonable.

To answer Fells question:

The owners would have to appoint one of their own as the managing partner. He or she would then have to attend all the annual pro basketball related events (Portsmouth, Orlando , D-L showcase, all the college all-star games) and get to know the who's who. Another key is selecting a style of play, everyone in the basketball world (Agents, Player Development Directors) should know what it is your team does; high pressure defense, lots of pick and roll, primary Zone, low-post offense, High 4's offense,etc... this helps agents place their players on the right team. Play structured basketball, avoid a lot of iso's and one on one play. Lastly, put the team in a city that is business friendly. Then focus on securing sponsors and building relationships with non-profit organizations in the area(This is really big!!!). Place an ad in the yellow pages and your ready to go.

All the teams in the league have to be solid franchises (keep the league at < 10 franchises), travel should be ground only, 75% of the games should be on the weekends and the players at the end of the bench should only make 700 per month.

[SignGuyDino]

I think IF it were true, it's more likely similar to the ABA's futile annual attempts to goad the NBA to have their "All-Star" team play the ABA All-Star team.

God, that makes me laugh everytime I think about it. What 50? 60? point victory by the NBA?

[DazedAndAmused]

Isn't the CBA one of the "mean-spirited", "Unethical", "Immoral" leagues that
Joe Newman rants about on his weekly gabfest during the winter?

If what A1Sports is saying is true, I have to believe that the CBA has
fallen to ABA level. This could serve no real purpose for them other than to
hang on for another season and hope the PBL decides to merge with what
few CBA teams have survived this off-season. In that case, the teams would
be better off to jump now, or not at all. We don't need five Atlanta Krunks
playing a bunch of rec. teams, that may not even show up for scheduled games,
for another winter.

It SEEMS to be backed up by a couple of different posters that the CBA actually took a vote on whether to play ABA teams this season.

IF that was even presented for a vote, that spells (and smells like) total desperation.

There must be some really bad blood b/w the PBL and CBA (or one is just dismissing the other) for the ABA to even be in the discussion (again IF true.)

Seems a shame in one way, but the geography has never made sense aside from a couple of teams.

[DazedAndAmused]

I disagree for the following reasons. (1) Leagues have to attract owners that would not mind receiving a nice tax write off. Each new team should have 20-25 co-owners, and each team should have an annual budget of more than 800K. If Losses don't exceed 300K and each owner could write of a portion of the 15K loss. Asking one person to assume 300K in losses each year is not reasonable.

To answer Fells question:

The owners would have to appoint one of their own as the managing partner. He or she would then have to attend all the annual pro basketball related events (Portsmouth, Orlando , D-L showcase, all the college all-star games) and get to know the who's who. Another key is selecting a style of play, everyone in the basketball world (Agents, Player Development Directors) should know what it is your team does; high pressure defense, lots of pick and roll, primary Zone, low-post offense, High 4's offense,etc... this helps agents place their players on the right team. Play structured basketball, avoid a lot of iso's and one on one play. Lastly, put the team in a city that is business friendly. Then focus on securing sponsors and building relationships with non-profit organizations in the area(This is really big!!!). Place an ad in the yellow pages and your ready to go.

All the teams in the league have to be solid franchises (keep the league at < 10 franchises), travel should be ground only, 75% of the games should be on the weekends and the players at the end of the bench should only make 700 per month.

multi-owner groups = good
20 owners = bad (too many, will open up "people" problems when money is on the line, won't work)
800k budgets = no good for minor league ball and not sustainable (think 250k to 300k, where you can reduce #s of owners)
mention of losses as a write off = on the money (why? minor league basketball is only truly viable as a write off to supplement other businesses)

.....the rest I like and should be expanded to include provisions where every team owns part of the league which in turn owns part of every team. Why? make everyone vested in each other's success. other businesses have thrived on this model.

[bectond]

multi-owner groups = good
20 owners = bad (too many, will open up "people" problems when money is on the line, won't work).

It only seems like a lot, once you take into account married couples and families it's not that many people, it will work, in fact most successful minor league ownership groups are comprised of members from groups of families.


800k budgets = no good for minor league ball and not sustainable (think 250k to 300k, where you can reduce #s of owners)
mention of losses as a write off = on the money (why? minor league basketball is only truly viable as a write off to supplement other businesses)

You may not know this but the owners/shareholders of many companies employ their family members and friends. They pay them good salaries and they are normally great employees. A large % of teams budgets are based on their front office staffs and game day operations staffs (many of which are their friends, their family and their friends family members.


mention of losses as a write off = on the money (why? minor league basketball is only truly viable as a write off to supplement other businesses)
Yes, if I own a concessions business, I may be interested in helping to start a franchise in my town. Same goes for people that own security companies, Motor Coach or Bus companies the list goes on and on...

If you understood the business better, you would understand why large ownership groups are better for everbody. Remember, different groups of people can have a number of different reasons for joining a venture (If they will see some type of advantage in it for themselves or a loved one). Normally, the guy running the concessions does not step on the radio station guys toes. But you may not want two families of electricians in the ownership group because the team/corporation can only pay one to operate the lighting. Same goes for radio station operations etc... Low-budget teams really don't offer anything to an investor. There simply isn't enough money being pooled together for anybody to profit via a loss.

[DazedAndAmused]

It only seems like a lot, once you take into account married couples and families it's not that many people, it will work, in fact most successful minor league ownership groups are comprised of members from groups of families.



You may not know this but the owners/shareholders of many companies employ their family members and friends. They pay them good salaries and they are normally great employees. A large % of teams budgets are based on their front office staffs and game day operations staffs (many of which are their friends, their family and their friends family members.


Yes, if I own a concessions business, I may be interested in helping to start a franchise in my town. Same goes for people that own security companies, Motor Coach or Bus companies the list goes on and on...

If you understood the business better, you would understand why large ownership groups are better for everbody. Remember, different groups of people can have a number of different reasons for joining a venture (If they will see some type of advantage in it for themselves or a loved one). Normally, the guy running the concessions does not step on the radio station guys toes. But you may not want two families of electricians in the ownership group because the team/corporation can only pay one to operate the lighting. Same goes for radio station operations etc... Low-budget teams really don't offer anything to an investor. There simply isn't enough money being pooled together for anybody to profit via a loss.

bectond, i actually do like and agree with some of your ideas, but you are extending a bit too far and perhaps showing some lack of overall business experience and expertise, or at least showing that the experience you have had has been somewhat not applicable. i actually understand "the business" and "business" quite well, so i guess without comparing resumes, we'll just have to read each other's comments and take or leave them, or at least enjoy the debate.

Why do I say this? Families in business? Married people in business? 20 people making decisions about a business? These are not recipes for successful major, successsful business ventures (or perhaps more importantly, happy Thanksgivings.) Perhaps they work in concessions businesses. I'll take your word for that.

Forget 800k budgets moving forward, unless you want to end up with more present day CBAs. I don't consider a 250k to 300k budgets low, again in the present climate.

Seriously, no offense. I like reading your comments. Peace.

[MontanaFella]

Can we seperate one thing here? Are we talking "minor league", or "semi-pro"?
When building a marketing plan and following, there is a difference. With
basketball, I would believe that the NBDL is the only true minor league.

Sorry to jump in like this. I have been enjoying this quality thread with pretty solid insight. I couldn't help but be bothered by the Minor League or Semi-Pro comment. Semi-Pro is a non sequitor no one who knows anything about sports should ever use the term. If you do something and get paid for it you are a professional, you don't have to call the CBA a 'minor league' even though it is, but don't insult the groups intelligence by lending credence to the term Semi-Pro.

[panchess]

in minor league basketball is simple. Very few players come out "through the ranks." It works in baseball and hockey because a lot of players turn professional right out of high school (or even earlier, in the case of Latin American baseball players) and are developed by the teams. Therefore, the teams need the players and the players need the teams.

The NFL dumped its spring NFL Europe experiment because they didn't "see the bang for the buck." If anything, the current D-League is too big to meet the legitimate development needs of the NBA. They probably would be better off using the model of extended spring training in baseball, where the D-League prospects (no offense to Randy Livingston, but I am taking about the guys with limited pro experience out of college or high school) work with coaches and play games in "teams" that have some flexibility.

A "private" minor league should focus on building its own stars and networks. I agree with Ken that the Northern League is probably a better model for any non D-League minor league than AAA baseball.

[turbocamyes]

in minor league basketball is simple. Very few players come out "through the ranks." It works in baseball and hockey because a lot of players turn professional right out of high school (or even earlier, in the case of Latin American baseball players) and are developed by the teams. Therefore, the teams need the players and the players need the teams.

The NFL dumped its spring NFL Europe experiment because they didn't "see the bang for the buck." If anything, the current D-League is too big to meet the legitimate development needs of the NBA. They probably would be better off using the model of extended spring training in baseball, where the D-League prospects (no offense to Randy Livingston, but I am taking about the guys with limited pro experience out of college or high school) work with coaches and play games in "teams" that have some flexibility.

A "private" minor league should focus on building its own stars and networks. I agree with Ken that the Northern League is probably a better model for any non D-League minor league than AAA baseball.



My post, before panchess beat me to the punch:

Ah, so many issues …

First, the idea that there is or can be a correlation between the minor leagues in baseball and basketball is wrong. While you might use the AAA, AA, & A designations to distinguish the level of play between the various domestic leagues, you can’t when discussing if a prospect is ready for the NBA. Baseball’s AAA level teams have up to 60 percent of their roster ready to play in the majors, made up of both prospects and former major leaguers, while AA and A teams are full of prospects. Basketball is different. The D-League will have possibly 2 to 3 ready to contribute or ride the bench in the NBA, most of whom are players that NBA teams at one time hid on the DL but can now “send” down to play. The days of Charlie Criss are over. Two years ago the Lakers were the only team that “owned” a D-Team and only two players, Farmar and Patterson, were on their next summer league and pre-season rosters. This meant that the other 10-12 players were merely showcasing their talents for scouts, or, more likely, riding the bench. I haven’t looked at this year’s Orlando and Las Vegas rosters closely, but even with the Spurs in the mix, I’m guessing the results will be the same.

Second, while I hope that the CBA will return to form, as a pipeline to the NBA, it is now dead. I won’t say that the NBA has purposely shut down the flow of players from the CBA, especially players with some NBA experience, but if players are no longer being called up, then it is better financially for them to head overseas. To play in the D-League next to or behind someone under contract to an NBA team just doesn’t make sense.

And finally, let’s not forget that the PBL is made up of former ABA teams stocked with former ABA players. You can call the operations of the ABA and some of its owners “semi-pro”, but it is unfair the label the players in the league as such. Many have moved on to the CBA, D-League or overseas.

...and I was going to use Livingston as an example too, I just thought my post was too long.

[psbf]

I don't know why the NBA now preferrs to do business with the D-League, but Issiah Thomas sure messed things up for this league(from what I've heard). I could be wrong, but it's apparent that the NBA does have something against the CBA, since they no longer accept players from this league. I admit, I do watch some D games on NBA tv, because they remind me of when I'm watching the Xplosion at home. But the NBA refusing to allow any more call-ups from this league is only another reason why I preferr WNBA games to the men's sport. What I do know, is that this league faces an uncertain future as far as the coming season.

[formerlyknownasfells]

Sorry to jump in like this. I have been enjoying this quality thread with pretty solid insight. I couldn't help but be bothered by the Minor League or Semi-Pro comment. Semi-Pro is a non sequitor no one who knows anything about sports should ever use the term. If you do something and get paid for it you are a professional, you don't have to call the CBA a 'minor league' even though it is, but don't insult the groups intelligence by lending credence to the term Semi-Pro.

You hit it right on. The term "semi-professional" implies that the players do not get paid. I have worked with semi-pro football teams and they actually pay to play. (Dues, own equipment, etc.) If you are paid to play, you therefore lose your amateur status. Players in the ABA, CBA, PBL, etc are paid to play and are under contract to receive compensation.

I know many don't like the ABA, but it is professional basketball. If they are paid a dollar a year, they are considered professionals.

[TheStandard]

I don't know why the NBA now preferrs to do business with the D-League, but Issiah Thomas sure messed things up for this league(from what I've heard). I could be wrong, but it's apparent that the NBA does have something against the CBA, since they no longer accept players from this league. I admit, I do watch some D games on NBA tv, because they remind me of when I'm watching the Xplosion at home. But the NBA refusing to allow any more call-ups from this league is only another reason why I preferr WNBA games to the men's sport. What I do know, is that this league faces an uncertain future as far as the coming season.

The NBA doesnt do business with the D-League. The D-League is part of them. They created the D-league so they don't have to deal with the CBA, ABA,PBL. The NBA only wants to handle with the rest of the world and themselves. Why? because minor league basketball in the US has been trampled by idiots that have destroyed it.

Isiah Thomas killed the CBA and virtually between him and that bastard of Joe Newman, they have killed minor league basketball.

[DazedAndAmused]

Sorry to jump in like this. I have been enjoying this quality thread with pretty solid insight. I couldn't help but be bothered by the Minor League or Semi-Pro comment. Semi-Pro is a non sequitor no one who knows anything about sports should ever use the term. If you do something and get paid for it you are a professional, you don't have to call the CBA a 'minor league' even though it is, but don't insult the groups intelligence by lending credence to the term Semi-Pro.

This is a quality thread. I'll jump in to the "semi pro" comments.

The term as accepted by most i have encountered can refer to a league where some players get and some do not. So, you can technically have both amateur and professional players in a semi pro league. Some leagues (I won't name names) actually require players to be paid SOMETHING, in which case they should take the "professional" badge. Others don't have this requirement (even perhaps discouraging paying players when possible) and thus deserve the "semi pro" label.

"Semi pro" can also apply to leagues where equipment, per diem for road trips, and other fringe benefits are provided but the players are not paid a salary or per game fees necessarily, and they also do not "pay to play."

[Pounder]

Maybe minor league basketball SHOULD die.

It's time for "reserve team" basketball.

That's not what you want. You want your town to have a functioning team.

You have to take collective action and demand a system of promotion and relegation. Quadruple the number of teams. I do believe European countries do it for basketball in much the way it happens in soccer.

The best way to get fans interested in your town is to make the reward meaningful.

Just don't be surprised if the NBA doesn't capitulate.

[psbf]

With all due respect, Pounder, some of us can only afford to watch minor league Basketball(as has been previously mentioned).

[preeths]

This is a quality thread. I'll jump in to the "semi pro" comments.

The term as accepted by most i have encountered can refer to a league where some players get and some do not. So, you can technically have both amateur and professional players in a semi pro league. Some leagues (I won't name names) actually require players to be paid SOMETHING, in which case they should take the "professional" badge. Others don't have this requirement (even perhaps discouraging paying players when possible) and thus deserve the "semi pro" label.

"Semi pro" can also apply to leagues where equipment, per diem for road trips, and other fringe benefits are provided but the players are not paid a salary or per game fees necessarily, and they also do not "pay to play."

By and large, this is the definition OurSports Central uses.

[bectond]

Forget 800k budgets moving forward, unless you want to end up with more present day CBAs. I don't consider a 250k to 300k budgets low, again in the present climate.

Seriously, no offense. I like reading your comments. Peace.

My experience comes from researching the subject of sport for the last 13 years, no offense taken.

Remember, most long standing minor league franchises go out of business because the team owner simply does not want to assume the losses anymore. Franchises that have a number of owners, normally last a lot longer than franchises that only have 1 or 2. If one owner decides to give up, the other owners simply buy his shares or they find another limited partner (Limited investment partners are easier to find). Since I was wrong and you are part of the business, you know that the current CBA began via a merger of the Minnesota, then Winnepeg based -IBA and Baltimore based- IBL. The IBA started out in 96 with 5 franchises (why do people think the CBA can not play with 5 teams?) and really began the current era of over expansion (Nobody noticed because the league was based in a remote location). By 1999, the IBA had 10 franchises (only 3 of the founding franchises remained). Most of the franchises were sole proprietorships or LLC's with only one shareholder and the Dakota Wizards are the only team that remains from that league.

I believe those teams went belly up due to the leagues infrastructure. Most of the owners were not willing to loss the amount of money IBL teams lost (The IBL had teams located all across the country). They took one look at the cost structure of the IBL / CBA and ran the other way. Most solid businesses do not operate in that fashion. They simply seek additional investors when they need to raise capital in order to continue to operate or they sell off assets. Remember most of the IBA franchises were no more than 2 years old, the owners that walked (ran) away from the merger threw a lot of start-up cost down the drain(which was azz backwards). Smart people normally elect to sell off shares rather than can fold (Folding allows owners to receive tax relief), to recoup their start-up losses. Selling shares also reduces the percentage of losses they would incur due to the increase cost of doing business.

Note: the cost of doing business always increases, therefore additional sources of revenue must be discovered.

Most unsuccessful minor league sports LLC's only have one revenue producing source (the team). Therefore, they don't have any assets to sell off other than a few basketballs when they go belly up. In order to profit from their investment they will have to generate more game related revenues than total cost. The teams earning power must also justify ongoing operations. Without assets or investors a franchises likely hood of survival is extremely bleak.

I believe operating a team at 250K and receiving revenue > or = 250K is not sufficient to sustain an ongoing operation, to me it’s just spinning wheels.

In order to increase revenue you will need additional investors or a great working relationship with lenders. In order to have a great working relationship with lenders you need boat loads of liquid assets. If you’re an ego driven dude with tons of cash that does not play well with others than this route may seem like the best choice. However, if you start a franchise with borrowed money that 250K operating budget will expand each subsequent season. Here is the math:

Year One
Budget 250K
Investment 60K
Loan for 190K (extra 20K for 10 year)
Total Cost = 270
Revenue (1,500 per game at $8 for 10 games + 80,000 in sponsors, 60,000 from concessions) Total = 260,000K

Loss 10K + Initial investment of 60K = 70K

Year two the real cost of living increases 7% and as the owner you have the ongoing operating cost prior to the season.
Investment 250K
Loan 20K
Cost of living increases 15K
Total Cost = 285K
Revenue (1,500 per game at 8.50 for 10 games + 85,000 in sponsors, 67,500 from concessions Total = 280,000K

Loss 5K year two on top of the 65K in losses from year one.

Year three.
Investment 250K
Loan 15K
Cost of living increase 20K
Total Cost = 285K

Here is the aspect of the business that many people don't understand. It deals with cost points, Sponsorship dollars are limited - therefore, at a certain point they will cease to grow. Ticket and concession prices will have to increase to keep up cost. Fans may reject the pricing increases, which leads to a decrease in revenue.

Can the team increase ticket sales while increasing ticket prices.
Can the team keep the same front office staff in place that has developed relationships with season ticket holders and sponsors.

This is the point where poorly run franchises die, it's a combination of the staff turnover, increase cost of doing business, the huge yearly investment the owner must make and the end of that new toy feeling that kills franchises even if they are breaking even.

If you want to expand your entertainment business, improve your community and take your other businesses to the next level as well, joining an investment group is the right thing to do. If you can get respected people in your community to join your Board of Directors, your marketing efforts will benefit from the positive perception they have and your revenues will increase.

If you have 20 investors, a lender is not needed (no 190K loan) and the initial investment would be 12.5K and not 60K.

If you hired friends and family the employee turnover is not as bad, the total yearly investment is much lower and if one of the owners wants out because the new toy feel has gone, your group can buy him out. (HE CAN MAKE HIS INITIAL INVESTMENT BACK!!!)

If the ownership group has 4 investors, the out of pocket initial investment would be about 60K for each investor, finding a replacement invest at the 62K is a lot harder than finding one at 12K.
If you seek out investors that normally do business with the team (business people that stand to loss an important client, if the team goes belly up) replacing investors should be easy and the team will have a long term run.

[CanadianBaller]

Actually there are three Pro Leagues in the U.S. The NBA D League, PBL, and the IBL.

Here is their Website in case you forgot.

http://www.iblhoopsonline.com/

[psbf]

What's left of the CBA only has 4 teams. But it's nice to see that they actually departed with Atlanta/Augusta(although the other 5 teams are still on it).

[DazedAndAmused]

My experience comes from researching the subject of sport for the last 13 years, no offense taken.


I follow your numbers, and I follow your logic.

My question is really about the ability to actually execute such a plan...eg, find 20 people who want to do it, keep them on the same page, manage the issues associated with doing business with family, etc.

There will of course be exceptions, but as a general rule, I don't see those types of business arrangements (in any business, not just the business of sport) working in such a way that it can become the industry model that can be counted on to sustain minor league basketball.

Therefore, whether we like it or not, I believe we will be stuck (for a while at least) with "high-end" budgets of 250k to 300k average, funded by guys with semi-deep pockets that are willing to do it. We'll still have the 40k and below budgets in the ABA and IBL.

I don't want to be right about this. It's just what I see happening.

[DazedAndAmused]

why do people think the CBA can not play with 5 teams?

I for one think a league can play with 5 teams. I have my doubts though when the teams are spread out by an average of 2000 miles.

[psbf]

Apparently everyone is stuck on the number 5:rolleyes:

[OKCAVS67]

5 must be a magic number for some?

how I see this year coming about team wise:
1. Returning champion - Lawton/Ft. Sill Calvary
2. Pittsburgh X-plosion
3. E. Kentucky Miners
4. Minot Skyrockets
5. RioGrande Silverados
6. Albany Patroons
7. Expansion Team
8. Expansion Team

Would be nice if Butte or Great Falls would come back, but doubt either one will.

I see a complete re-org of divisions due to where teams are located.
Not even going to try to figure this one out since there may be new teams added in the mix or current ones subtracted.


Interesting enough, on the CBA website they have updated it just abit by removing the Atlanta Krunk from the standings list and their logo from the top of the page. Not all links to the Krunk site are gone though. I found some after going into different areas of the site.

Butte, Great Falls and Yakama are still on the site.

I think the CBA needs to get off their arse and update the complete site with new info to keep the fans interested.

Ok, off my box.

[psbf]

I'm sure that others will still come up with 5. But I doubt there will be any teams added for the simple reason of the CBA's attempt at a meeting in the Carribean-which apparently never happened. Unfortunately, the league seems determined to make something happened, which I say because nothing new has been added on the league site since May.
RGV is in debt big time, which the owners seem to be ignoring by way of trying to relocate.
Albany is still in need of season ticket holders with time running out. The rest speaks for itself. So the remaining teams;
PGH. Xplosion
East Ky Miners
Minot Skyrockets
Lawton-Ft. Sill Cavalry

As of now, that is the current alignment. I would welcome the other teams back, but news has been dead, as has the league site.

[Pounder]

With all due respect, Pounder, some of us can only afford to watch minor league Basketball(as has been previously mentioned).

Have you ever tried to poll your Pittsburgh mates as to why there's only 1,000 per game in the stands... "officially"?

Minor leagues tend to die in bigger cities. Pittsburgh is a bigger market with three major league teams. It costs more to market in Pittsburgh than, say, Erie. It costs more to rent a major arena. Furthermore, basketball isn't baseball... the fan base you're going after has different tastes.

Meanwhile, a couple years ago in England... I paid 32 pounds for Manchester United (at the time, $56), 24 pounds ($42) for Sunderland (same level), and 16 pounds ($28 or so) for Hartlepool (3rd level). In short, yes, that 3rd level prices higher than it does in the states. However, is it not clear by now that there aren't enough sports fans thinking ONLY price? Most fans value the time they spend watching something, they want to know that what they're paying for is worth their time. Basketball hasn't really delivered at lower levels. It is what it is. Ironically, I think lower cost options won't survive this economy.

[psbf]

That only sounds like an excuse to me, Pounder. I don't care how big the size of a market is. Even with competition from other sports, there can be room for another team, if it is marketed and promoted correctly. Also, another important part is communication, which you need in a business to keep customers satisfied. So don't give me this hogwash about the size of a market or the level of play. I'm not bying it.

[tops804]

Sorry to jump in like this. I have been enjoying this quality thread with pretty solid insight. I couldn't help but be bothered by the Minor League or Semi-Pro comment. Semi-Pro is a non sequitor no one who knows anything about sports should ever use the term. If you do something and get paid for it you are a professional, you don't have to call the CBA a 'minor league' even though it is, but don't insult the groups intelligence by lending credence to the term Semi-Pro.

Not meaning to ruffle any feathers with the semi-pro separation. I guess I'm
forgetting that independent baseball is considered minor-league as it has no
major league that can safety net it in a crisis. My point was that with an
independent like the CBA, the league plan has to be more centralized. In its
current state, it's hard to figure how a solution to the CBA losing teams can
include being anything less then a regionalized league.

Still on thread, I can't see the CBA and ABA playing interleague games as
anything less then a desperate move to salvage the 2008-09 season (and
maybe an audition for the ABA teams to move to a better league in 2009).

[tops804]

why do people think the CBA can not play with 5 teams?

I for one think a league can play with 5 teams. I have my doubts though when the teams are spread out by an average of 2000 miles.

I can see a five team league surviving, for one season. The problem is that
the teams are so far spread out around the country. Would fans want to
see long road trips and three games in three nights against the same one
or two teams? Truth be told, here is where ABA play could help.

Problems?
1) Will the ABA teams show up?
2) CBA regions that lack teams seem to be the same regions that lack ABA
teams. Minot would have travel issues anywhere within the ABA or CBA.
ABA east opponents for East Kentucky, Pittsburgh, and Albany all seem to
have question marks around them.
3) Rio Grande Valley and Lawton are in a region in which ABA teams have
traditionally fallen off the map by mid-January.

[preeths]

That only sounds like an excuse to me, Pounder. I don't care how big the size of a market is. Even with competition from other sports, there can be room for another team, if it is marketed and promoted correctly. Also, another important part is communication, which you need in a business to keep customers satisfied. So don't give me this hogwash about the size of a market or the level of play. I'm not bying it.

But therein lies one of the biggest problems. It generally costs more to correctly market and promote a team in a large city such as Pittsburgh than it does in a smaller community. Radio, television and newspaper advertising all cost more. News, promotions or team events the media covers in places like Butte and Yakima are typically ignored by the Pittsburgh media. There's just so much more going on there.

[formerlyknownasfells]

But therein lies one of the biggest problems. It generally costs more to correctly market and promote a team in a large city such as Pittsburgh than it does in a smaller community. Radio, television and newspaper advertising all cost more. News, promotions or team events the media covers in places like Butte and Yakima are typically ignored by the Pittsburgh media. There's just so much more going on there.

Paul is dead on here. Take for example a comparison between Burlington and Pittsburgh. At a top rated station in Burlington, a 30 second ad would run about $45.00 per spot while in Pittsburgh it would be about five to six times that. The same goes for the newspapers where ad rates are significantly higher in a major market than in a smaller one. Why is this? Simply, there is a greater population and more people are reached.

One has to be REALLY good at marketing to make a team succeed in a large area. Take Pittsburgh as an example. You have the Steelers, Pirates, Sixers, Penguins and the colleges that suck up all of the attention. How is a team like the Xplosion going to compete with the big boys? As much as I love the minor leagues, this is why minor league teams tend not to succeed in major markets; there is just too much going on.

[psbf]

your points, in some regards. But I feel that even if the Xplosion only put an add in print like the paper(s) or smaller publications that get significant readership, they still get word out and give local fans a choice and even get more involved with local schools with Basketball programs to let them know that we have a pro team. Why should college and High School be the only choices here?! Fans are limited to the Steelers, Pens and Pirates and, even though other pro teams here are minor league, they are still choices! We are still a big market(biggest in the CBA) which means fans have choices. Just because the Xplosion are trapped in a lease agreement with the venues(M.A. and the Pete) does not mean that they have to go without promoting even if just a little. What makes it even harder is the potential lack of a season upcoming. But they can still promote camps. You think that this city has too many teams in competition. I don't see it that way! The Xplosion drew great crowds to a couple games this past season, which gives me reason for optimism. I'm sure many on here will look at it as 'big deal', though. Let's just agree to disagree, as far as the Xplosion.

[panchess]

..but it isn't like the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette is five times larger than the paper in Yakima or even Minot to compensate for the number of teams and the size of the market.

On the top line of the Post-Gazette web site are the three major league teams in the city (even the NBA doesn't rate the top line in Pittsburgh because there is no NBA team there), Pitt, Penn State and West Virginia in college (and I doubt WVU would be there if they weren't in the same league as Pitt). High School sports get a line, and so does hunting and fishing.

Duquesne doesn't. Neither do the Xplosion, Robert Morris, or other schools in Pittsburgh. All of them would be on the top line in a smaller market.

[psbf]

Wrong, Panchess. The Mountaineers(WVU) would be listed regardless of their Big East rivalry with Pitt because they are not just a league rival, but they are considered another local team. Morgantown is only an hour South of here and they also consider Penn State relatively local as well. Yet the media here does not cover what they consider 'non-pro' sports, even though the Riverhounds and Xplosion play professionally. But neither has their own venue, which is the key. Both used to get average coverage, but it has since discontinued.

[Pounder]

CBA example... San Jose Jammers. They were in a market where the Golden State Warriors have to fight to get attention away from the 49ers, Raiders, Giants, and Athletics. Heck, Stanford and Cal-Berkeley are relegated to getting basketball scores on the ticker most of the time. Just think what happens these days with the Sharks and Earthquakes in town.

Notice that AAA teams in Denver and Phoenix were never the best draws in the PCL... but have averaged "well enough" in the majors... and Portland Beavers don't draw well in a one-major market.

I can go on and on.

It's not an opinion to me. It's generally proven, and the few exceptions prove the rule. It's the law of sports gravity.

More marketing will only drive up the break-even income requirement, which will likely either raise ticket prices or put the owners in debt faster... unless there's something so uniquely creative that people take notice. That's usually where the exceptions (St. Paul Saints) arise.

Actually, an exercise... how much do the Steelers or Penguins advertise? How much do the Pirates advertise? I bet the Pirates have to sell hard, the Penguins possibly a modest amount, and the Steelers probably only advertise pre-season games and ancilliary activities. Sounds to me like what I saw in S**ttle. I know very well the Trail Blazers didn't have to advertise squat for 20 years until the Jail Blazers caused attendance to go south.

[bectond]

I follow your numbers, and I follow your logic.

My question is really about the ability to actually execute such a plan...eg, find 20 people who want to do it, keep them on the same page, manage the issues associated with doing business with family, etc.

There will of course be exceptions, but as a general rule, I don't see those types of business arrangements (in any business, not just the business of sport) working in such a way that it can become the industry model that can be counted on to sustain minor league basketball.

Therefore, whether we like it or not, I believe we will be stuck (for a while at least) with "high-end" budgets of 250k to 300k average, funded by guys with semi-deep pockets that are willing to do it. We'll still have the 40k and below budgets in the ABA and IBL.

I don't want to be right about this. It's just what I see happening.

Here are two articles that discuss the Sonic ownership group:
Pay close attention to the bold print and a few articles on two NHL ownership groups.

The Oklahoman

Businessman Clayton I. Bennett has formed an ownership group seeking a permanent NBA franchise for Oklahoma City: either the Hornets, whose success has become a national sensation, or a relocated franchise.
"The bottom line is, we want a team for this market," said Bennett, president of Dorchester Capital in Oklahoma City.

Bennett said his group would be interested in partnering with Hornets owner George Shinn, should the Hornets remain in Oklahoma City. Shinn has started seeking both local and national investors for the Hornets in an attempt to reduce a large debt incurred a year ago when he bought out partner Ray Wooldridge.

Shinn was in New York on Thursday and unavailable for comment."We would hope we could establish a local, community ownership group to own the team with George," Bennett said.

But Bennett said his group plans to be proactive in securing a franchise for the Ford Center should the Hornets return to New Orleans.

Business leaders in broad coalition
Bennett's group includes Aubrey McClendon and Tom Ward of Chesapeake Energy Corp., and G. Jeffrey Records, Jr. of MidFirst Bank. Those three and Bennett are the members of Oklahoma Professional Sports, LLC, the organization that partnered with the city and state in providing a revenue guarantee for the Hornets this season.

Bennett said he has at least four other civic and business leaders who are interested in joining what would be a broad-based group. Bennett said he also envisions a larger collection of investors, in the spirit of building a community ownership platform.

Shinn and NBA Commissioner David Stern both have said they hope to return to New Orleans in 2007-08, but have stopped short of guarantees.

"We are absolutely committed to the Hornets this year and next," Bennett said. "But we also are 100 percent committed to finding a team for this city in the long-term."

In recent days, Seattle SuperSonics owner Howard Schultz has gone public with his displeasure of that franchise's lease with Key Arena. Schultz said that unless the Sonics get a building upgrade -- extensive renovations or a new arena -- he will sell the Sonics, Seattle's original major-league franchise.

State help is the Sonics' primary hope, and the Washington state Legislature dismisses for the year on March 9, so the Sonics have a month to lobby. Washington legislators have been less than promising with their recent comments. Renovation costs to Key Arena have been estimated at $200 million.

Both Bennett and Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said they have not spoken with anyone from the Sonics.

The Sonics are reported to be worth about $300 million.

Oklahoma City; Kansas City, Mo.; Anaheim, Calif.; and Las Vegas have been mentioned as possible candidates for NBA relocation.

In November, one game into the Hornets' home season, Stern visited the Ford Center and said, "I can say without reservation that Oklahoma City is now at the top of the list" for expansion or relocation.

Bennett formerly was on the San Antonio Spurs Board of Directors and Stern has called him a "great friend of the NBA."


"We want to make sure we stay first on that list," Bennett said. "For us to be on the radar screen and in the hunt is where I think we ought to be. We need to be proactive."

Bennett said the ideal for Oklahoma City is an ownership group based on the Spurs model. The Spurs are owned by a group of civic leaders and corporations that turn all profits back into the franchise and ensure its stability in San Antonio.


This is the second article out of Seattle:

OKLAHOMA CITY Four more Oklahoma City businessmen are joining the ownership group that is buying the Seattle SuperSonics.

The new members announced Sunday are William M. Cameron, president and CEO of Oklahoma City-based American Fidelity Assurance Co.; Bob Howard, president of Mercedes Benz of Oklahoma City; Everett Dobson, executive chairman of Oklahoma City-based Dobson Communications Corp.; and Jay Scaramucci, president of Oklahoma City-based Balon Corp.

Clayton I. Bennett, chairman and managing partner of Professional Basketball Club LLC, announced in July that his group would buy the Sonics and WNBA Storm for $350 million. The sale is subject to league approval and is expected to be addressed at the NBA Board of Governors meeting on Oct. 24.

"This is a dynamic group of accomplished business people," Bennett said in a statement. "They bring business insight from a variety of demanding market categories including finance, banking, real estate, insurance, automotive, telecommunications, energy and investment management."

The original partners in the group are Bennett, president of investment firm Dorchester Capital; Aubrey K. McClendon, chairman and CEO of Chesapeake Energy Corp.; G. Jeffrey Records Jr., president and CEO of MidFirst Bank; and Tom L. Ward, chairman and CEO of SandRidge Energy Inc. All four companies are based in Oklahoma City.

The group was initially formed in February and set out to find an NBA team for Oklahoma City. However, Bennett has said the new owners intend to keep the teams in Seattle, provided a new arena deal can be reached within a 12-month deadline.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlanta Spirit, LLC is a partnership headquartered at 101 Marietta St., Atlanta, GA. They own the NBA's Atlanta Hawks and the NHL's Atlanta Thrashers, as well as Philips Arena along with Nintendo Company of America Ltd. The nine partners who comprise the group are Steve Belkin, Michael Gearon, Jr., Bruce Levenson, Ed Peskowitz, J. Rutherford Seydel, Todd Foreman, J. Michael Gearon, Sr., Bud Seretean, and Beau Turner[1]. These nine businessmen are divided into three groups, each headquartered in Atlanta, Washington, D.C., and Boston, and each group shares equal voting power within the group.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd. (MLSE) is the owner and operator of the Toronto Maple Leafs National Hockey League team, Toronto Raptors National Basketball Association team, Toronto FC Major League Soccer team, and Toronto Marlies American Hockey League team — all based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
As of 2003:

58% - Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
15% - CTVglobemedia
14% - TD Bank Financial Group, through TD Capital Group
13% - Kilmer Sports Inc. (Owned by Larry Tanenbaum)
Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd. Board of Directors:

Larry Tanenbaum - Kilmer Sports (non-executive chairman of the board)
Richard Peddie (president and CEO)
Jim Leech - Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Robert Bertram - Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Dean Metcalf - Teachers' Merchant Bank
Ivan Fecan - CTVglobemedia
Robert MacLellan - TD Capital Group
Dale Lastman - Goodmans LLP
Erol Uzumeri - Teachers' Merchant Bank

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Edmonton Investors Group Limited Partnership was a the limited partnership that owned the Edmonton Oilers of the National Hockey League

As of January 2008, the ownership of the EIG was as follows:

Shareholder Percentage Held
Dave Addie 1.735%
Neal Allen
Jakob Ambrosius
Manuel Balsa
Ted Barrett
Edwin E. Bean 8.00%
Gordon Buchanan
Bill Butler
Michael Dalton
The Edmonton Journal
Ernie Elko
Gary Gregg 9.14%
Don Hamilton
Ron Hodgson 1.735%
Jim Hole 9.14%
J.R. Paine and Associates
Brian Hryniuk 1.735%
The Estate of Gerald Knoll.[8]
Chris Kuchar
Larry M. Makelki
Todd McFarlane
Tim Melton
Art Mihalcheon
Cal Nichols 8.00%
Brian Nilsson
Marcel Roberge
Roger Roberge
Harold Roozen
Bruce Saville 9.14%
Dale Sheard
Simon Sochatsky
Rusty Stalwick
Keith Weaver
Jim Zanello

[DazedAndAmused]

Here are two articles that discuss the Sonic ownership group:
Pay close attention to the bold print and a few articles on two NHL ownership groups.

The Oklahoman

Businessman Clayton I. Bennett has formed an ownership group seeking a permanent NBA franchise for Oklahoma City: either the Hornets, whose success has become a national sensation, or a relocated franchise.
"The bottom line is, we want a team for this market," said Bennett, president of Dorchester Capital in Oklahoma City.

Bennett said his group would be interested in partnering with Hornets owner George Shinn, should the Hornets remain in Oklahoma City. Shinn has started seeking both local and national investors for the Hornets in an attempt to reduce a large debt incurred a year ago when he bought out partner Ray Wooldridge.

Shinn was in New York on Thursday and unavailable for comment."We would hope we could establish a local, community ownership group to own the team with George," Bennett said.

But Bennett said his group plans to be proactive in securing a franchise for the Ford Center should the Hornets return to New Orleans.

Business leaders in broad coalition
Bennett's group includes Aubrey McClendon and Tom Ward of Chesapeake Energy Corp., and G. Jeffrey Records, Jr. of MidFirst Bank. Those three and Bennett are the members of Oklahoma Professional Sports, LLC, the organization that partnered with the city and state in providing a revenue guarantee for the Hornets this season.

Bennett said he has at least four other civic and business leaders who are interested in joining what would be a broad-based group. Bennett said he also envisions a larger collection of investors, in the spirit of building a community ownership platform.

Shinn and NBA Commissioner David Stern both have said they hope to return to New Orleans in 2007-08, but have stopped short of guarantees.

"We are absolutely committed to the Hornets this year and next," Bennett said. "But we also are 100 percent committed to finding a team for this city in the long-term."

In recent days, Seattle SuperSonics owner Howard Schultz has gone public with his displeasure of that franchise's lease with Key Arena. Schultz said that unless the Sonics get a building upgrade -- extensive renovations or a new arena -- he will sell the Sonics, Seattle's original major-league franchise.

State help is the Sonics' primary hope, and the Washington state Legislature dismisses for the year on March 9, so the Sonics have a month to lobby. Washington legislators have been less than promising with their recent comments. Renovation costs to Key Arena have been estimated at $200 million.

Both Bennett and Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said they have not spoken with anyone from the Sonics.

The Sonics are reported to be worth about $300 million.

Oklahoma City; Kansas City, Mo.; Anaheim, Calif.; and Las Vegas have been mentioned as possible candidates for NBA relocation.

In November, one game into the Hornets' home season, Stern visited the Ford Center and said, "I can say without reservation that Oklahoma City is now at the top of the list" for expansion or relocation.

Bennett formerly was on the San Antonio Spurs Board of Directors and Stern has called him a "great friend of the NBA."


"We want to make sure we stay first on that list," Bennett said. "For us to be on the radar screen and in the hunt is where I think we ought to be. We need to be proactive."

Bennett said the ideal for Oklahoma City is an ownership group based on the Spurs model. The Spurs are owned by a group of civic leaders and corporations that turn all profits back into the franchise and ensure its stability in San Antonio.


This is the second article out of Seattle:

OKLAHOMA CITY Four more Oklahoma City businessmen are joining the ownership group that is buying the Seattle SuperSonics.

The new members announced Sunday are William M. Cameron, president and CEO of Oklahoma City-based American Fidelity Assurance Co.; Bob Howard, president of Mercedes Benz of Oklahoma City; Everett Dobson, executive chairman of Oklahoma City-based Dobson Communications Corp.; and Jay Scaramucci, president of Oklahoma City-based Balon Corp.

Clayton I. Bennett, chairman and managing partner of Professional Basketball Club LLC, announced in July that his group would buy the Sonics and WNBA Storm for $350 million. The sale is subject to league approval and is expected to be addressed at the NBA Board of Governors meeting on Oct. 24.

"This is a dynamic group of accomplished business people," Bennett said in a statement. "They bring business insight from a variety of demanding market categories including finance, banking, real estate, insurance, automotive, telecommunications, energy and investment management."

The original partners in the group are Bennett, president of investment firm Dorchester Capital; Aubrey K. McClendon, chairman and CEO of Chesapeake Energy Corp.; G. Jeffrey Records Jr., president and CEO of MidFirst Bank; and Tom L. Ward, chairman and CEO of SandRidge Energy Inc. All four companies are based in Oklahoma City.

The group was initially formed in February and set out to find an NBA team for Oklahoma City. However, Bennett has said the new owners intend to keep the teams in Seattle, provided a new arena deal can be reached within a 12-month deadline.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlanta Spirit, LLC is a partnership headquartered at 101 Marietta St., Atlanta, GA. They own the NBA's Atlanta Hawks and the NHL's Atlanta Thrashers, as well as Philips Arena along with Nintendo Company of America Ltd. The nine partners who comprise the group are Steve Belkin, Michael Gearon, Jr., Bruce Levenson, Ed Peskowitz, J. Rutherford Seydel, Todd Foreman, J. Michael Gearon, Sr., Bud Seretean, and Beau Turner[1]. These nine businessmen are divided into three groups, each headquartered in Atlanta, Washington, D.C., and Boston, and each group shares equal voting power within the group.
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Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd. (MLSE) is the owner and operator of the Toronto Maple Leafs National Hockey League team, Toronto Raptors National Basketball Association team, Toronto FC Major League Soccer team, and Toronto Marlies American Hockey League team — all based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
As of 2003:

58% - Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
15% - CTVglobemedia
14% - TD Bank Financial Group, through TD Capital Group
13% - Kilmer Sports Inc. (Owned by Larry Tanenbaum)
Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd. Board of Directors:

Larry Tanenbaum - Kilmer Sports (non-executive chairman of the board)
Richard Peddie (president and CEO)
Jim Leech - Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Robert Bertram - Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan
Dean Metcalf - Teachers' Merchant Bank
Ivan Fecan - CTVglobemedia
Robert MacLellan - TD Capital Group
Dale Lastman - Goodmans LLP
Erol Uzumeri - Teachers' Merchant Bank

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The Edmonton Investors Group Limited Partnership was a the limited partnership that owned the Edmonton Oilers of the National Hockey League

As of January 2008, the ownership of the EIG was as follows:

Shareholder Percentage Held
Dave Addie 1.735%
Neal Allen
Jakob Ambrosius
Manuel Balsa
Ted Barrett
Edwin E. Bean 8.00%
Gordon Buchanan
Bill Butler
Michael Dalton
The Edmonton Journal
Ernie Elko
Gary Gregg 9.14%
Don Hamilton
Ron Hodgson 1.735%
Jim Hole 9.14%
J.R. Paine and Associates
Brian Hryniuk 1.735%
The Estate of Gerald Knoll.[8]
Chris Kuchar
Larry M. Makelki
Todd McFarlane
Tim Melton
Art Mihalcheon
Cal Nichols 8.00%
Brian Nilsson
Marcel Roberge
Roger Roberge
Harold Roozen
Bruce Saville 9.14%
Dale Sheard
Simon Sochatsky
Rusty Stalwick
Keith Weaver
Jim Zanello

I accept this as reaonable proof of the exception that I already acknowledge exists. But, this concept is a much easier sell in the major league sport examples you provide, where you know there are quality control measures that exist to provide real infrastructure to the business and where you know you have a solid brand name on which to bank your investment. Unfortunately, we have neither in independent minor league basketball. Additionally, these examples seem to be of professional ownership groups. I didn't get the impression that that was what you were advocating for minor league basketball. You mentioned (20) friends and family members and equal investors, some taking part in team management. That's the part I am most skeptical about in practice. Good info for thought though. Thx.

[bectond]

I accept this as reaonable proof of the exception that I already acknowledge exists. But, this concept is a much easier sell in the major league sport examples you provide, where you know there are quality control measures that exist to provide real infrastructure to the business and where you know you have a solid brand name on which to bank your investment. Unfortunately, we have neither in independent minor league basketball. Additionally, these examples seem to be of professional ownership groups. I didn't get the impression that that was what you were advocating for minor league basketball. You mentioned (20) friends and family members and equal investors, some taking part in team management. That's the part I am most skeptical about in practice. Good info for thought though. Thx.

You have to spend money to make money. Name me one successful professional sports league where the average operating budget per franchise is less than 500K. What you’re suggesting defies reason, how can restricting a franchise financially increase brand recognition.

The best minor league sports markets are small towns that have an inferiority complex. When entering such a market the operators must understand the psychological aspect of sport. The franchise has to make the citizens feel that their town has improved substantially due to the teams existence.

Don’t under estimate the power of water cooler talk, you can’t put a price tag on it’s importance.
Every major employer in a small team that host an independent league team should be connected to the team in some form or fashion.(As shareholders or sponsors) Each player signing should have some type of impact on break room conversation. The team should also be community based, it’s financial well being should be woven into the finances of the town in general. (More shareholders is always better than less shareholders) If possible, everyone should have a stake in the team in some form or fashion. In order for that to occur you have to spend a lot more than 250K.

As I stated earlier, the CBA should be a veterans league. Each team should attempt to sign veteran well-known players throughout the season. For instance, if Darius Miles wants to prove to NBA teams that his right knee is sound, CBA teams should be prepared to sign him for a two week home stand. (At 1,250-1,500 per week). When the team hits the road (minus the big named players that don't do bus trips) the front office staff should be actively looking for the next big name to bring into town for the next home stand. These independent operations should also be developing talent, and to do that you have to hire competent coaching, training and nutritional staffs. (Which cost money)

As for my family and friends statement....
Did you know that 33% of the top-executives at the major league level are related to a major shareholder in the ownership group by birth or marriage? Sports franchises by the most part are small businesses with fewer than 250 employees. In fact, most are family run small businesses.
If you have 20 owners in your ownership group, that’s a lot of trusted friends and family your team can use for front office and game operation staffing purposes. It’s far wiser to pay your friends and family to run a competitive sports franchise in a respected league than to have an under staffed non-competitive franchise in a joke of a leaque.

In conclusion (Boy, my responses are getting to darn long)
What do Edmonton, Oklahoma City and San Antonio all have in common?
They are all small market clubs that use the community centered approach. I believe the CBA should only enter extremely small markets like Minot and Pikeville. Places like Pikevill, Minot and Butte can use Edmonton as a blue print on how to survive in small markets with limited corporate resources.

[DazedAndAmused]

You have to spend money to make money. Name me one successful professional sports league where the average operating budget per franchise is less than 500K. What you’re suggesting defies reason, how can restricting a franchise financially increase brand recognition.

The best minor league sports markets are small towns that have an inferiority complex. When entering such a market the operators must understand the psychological aspect of sport. The franchise has to make the citizens feel that their town has improved substantially due to the teams existence.

Don’t under estimate the power of water cooler talk, you can’t put a price tag on it’s importance.
Every major employer in a small team that host an independent league team should be connected to the team in some form or fashion.(As shareholders or sponsors) Each player signing should have some type of impact on break room conversation. The team should also be community based, it’s financial well being should be woven into the finances of the town in general. (More shareholders is always better than less shareholders) If possible, everyone should have a stake in the team in some form or fashion. In order for that to occur you have to spend a lot more than 250K.

As I stated earlier, the CBA should be a veterans league. Each team should attempt to sign veteran well-known players throughout the season. For instance, if Darius Miles wants to prove to NBA teams that his right knee is sound, CBA teams should be prepared to sign him for a two week home stand. (At 1,250-1,500 per week). When the team hits the road (minus the big named players that don't do bus trips) the front office staff should be actively looking for the next big name to bring into town for the next home stand. These independent operations should also be developing talent, and to do that you have to hire competent coaching, training and nutritional staffs. (Which cost money)

As for my family and friends statement....
Did you know that 33% of the top-executives at the major league level are related to a major shareholder in the ownership group by birth or marriage? Sports franchises by the most part are small businesses with fewer than 250 employees. In fact, most are family run small businesses.
If you have 20 owners in your ownership group, that’s a lot of trusted friends and family your team can use for front office and game operation staffing purposes. It’s far wiser to pay your friends and family to run a competitive sports franchise in a respected league than to have an under staffed non-competitive franchise in a joke of a leaque.

In conclusion (Boy, my responses are getting to darn long)
What do Edmonton, Oklahoma City and San Antonio all have in common?
They are all small market clubs that use the community centered approach. I believe the CBA should only enter extremely small markets like Minot and Pikeville. Places like Pikevill, Minot and Butte can use Edmonton as a blue print on how to survive in small markets with limited corporate resources.

I'll try keep my answer a little shorter so we don't bore each other:

1. To this:
What you’re suggesting defies reason, how can restricting a franchise financially increase brand recognition. Don't think of my past comments as suggestions or recommendations, but more of a recognition of the new reality we face. If we want legitimate minor league basketball for the near future, clubs will need to be closer to 250k to 300k budgets. Why? (See below.) Don't kill the messenger!

2. Minor league basketball is diluted with "product," most bad. Owners of teams will have to overcome the perception before larger investments (budgets) can be justified. Having a nice house on a street of shacks still means you live on a street of shacks, impressing few. A real league has to be developed first, and we don't have a proven one of those right now to justify the bigger $ investments.

3. I keep seeing "major league" examples here.....we're a far cry from that, but I take your statistic of 33% family connection in major league sports as fact.

4. Counting on friends and family (in 20 owner groups) in serious business ventures is not a model to bank on that will support, build, or sustain minor league basketball IMO. In fact, in could be a recipe for disaster as a general rule. Of course, I will acknowledge that exceptions to anything exist.

5. Allow me to turn your question around just a bit: name me ONE successful (finacially) independent minor league basketball team with a budget OVER $500k. (Here's a hint: we both lose.)

[tbayz1]

5. Allow me to turn your question around just a bit: name me ONE successful (finacially) independent minor league basketball team with a budget OVER $500k. (Here's a hint: we both lose.)

There have been a few teams, I don't know how many still today, but they're not making money. Owners that are doing that just have a mad cash flow and don't know what to do with it all. I think I've read that the Rochester Razorsharks spend close to 1 million. They run a first class operation, and the owners are good, down to earth people. Going to a 'Sharks game feels like your at an NBA game, everything is really professional, and quite impressive both on and off the court. They put butts in seats too, 10k at the championship game, and they still don't make money.

I agree with D&A that a 250-300k budget for minor league basketball is a good budget. And with minor league basketball 20+ owners would just be a trainwreck, too many voices, egos, etc... Major sports is a different story.

[bectond]

I agree with D&A that a 250-300k budget for minor league basketball is a good budget. And with minor league basketball 20+ owners would just be a trainwreck, too many voices, egos, etc... Major sports is a different story.

I'm suggesting that ownership groups should be diverse and community centered. Knowing that..egos would not come into play. I could name eight non-major league baseball teams that have 20 or more owners and none of which are "train wrecks". If the CBA wants long term stable existence in small towns a community approach is really the only way to go. The Green Bay Packers have done it for years, this is nothing new.

[bectond]

I'll try keep my answer a little shorter so we don't bore each other:

1. To this:
What you’re suggesting defies reason, how can restricting a franchise financially increase brand recognition. Don't think of my past comments as suggestions or recommendations, but more of a recognition of the new reality we face. If we want legitimate minor league basketball for the near future, clubs will need to be closer to 250k to 300k budgets. Why? (See below.) Don't kill the messenger!

I elected to use the word reason instead of Logic on purpose. Reason deals with cause and effect. The end result of reason is the best solution for a problem. A franchise must have a reason for it's existence in order to rally the community around it. You are too focused on numbers, sports is about people interacting. People coming together.



2. Minor league basketball is diluted with "product," most bad. Owners of teams will have to overcome the perception before larger investments (budgets) can be justified. Having a nice house on a street of shacks still means you live on a street of shacks, impressing few. A real league has to be developed first, and we don't have a proven one of those right now to justify the bigger $ investments.

Sports should be about making the community better (in the mind of it's residents), bring the whole town together on a friday night and making people feel go about their town.
The ABA is not going anywhere, as long as there are fools the infamous JN will make a profit. The CBA needs to focus on the CBA.


3. I keep seeing "major league" examples here.....we're a far cry from that, but I take your statistic of 33% family connection in major league sports as fact.

I was attempting to show you how successful small market teams operate.
In small towns the fans are really the owners anyway, why not make it official. The CBA needs a new brand and the low-budget league is not the type of brand recognition that will rescue the league from the abyss.
(How will a low-budget operation make citizens feel proud?)


4. Counting on friends and family (in 20 owner groups) in serious business ventures is not a model to bank on that will support, build, or sustain minor league basketball IMO. In fact, in could be a recipe for disaster as a general rule. Of course, I will acknowledge that exceptions to anything exist.

Are you a democrat?

So it takes a village of idiots to raise a child. Just joking...

Yes, i'm saying form an extremely large local ownership group and get as many family and friends of those owners as ticket takers, ushers, office managers, receptionist, statisticians, ball boys, equipment managers, group tickets salesmen, season ticket salesmen, marketing reps.

Nope, it's a recipe for success - friends and family would care more about your investment then some outsider. So yes, if you normally surround yourself with good wholesome hardworking small town preotestants, then you can hire your buddy if he brings something to the table, his kids, your kids and all your wives. If you don't surround yourself with good people, then invest in the stock market instead. (Bec , tip of the day-Invest in Wind Energy) Leave community based sports ventures to people that are committed to improving society as well as making an extra buck.


5. Allow me to turn your question around just a bit: name me ONE successful (finacially) independent minor league basketball team with a budget OVER $500k. (Here's a hint: we both lose.)

The Harlem Globetrotters and the Rochester Razorsharks.

[DazedAndAmused]

I elected to use the word reason instead of Logic on purpose. Reason deals with cause and effect.

Well, this is getting down to semantics as reason requires logic and logic requires reason in all practical applications. We can go through that exercise if we must. But, my simple point is that I am discussing today's environment and what survival today and tomorrow will look like. And, yes the numbers do matter and require focus.

You seem to be talking about "pie in the sky." I won't argue with you about the way perhaps things should be, but I am commenting about the way they are now and will likely be for the foreseeable future. Do I want a world of $1M minor league budgets...sure. But, the house of minor league basketball needs to be re-built brick by brick, and I don't believe your approach is right right now for that cause .

As far as invest opportunities go, there are alot of great possibilities in both solar and wind. I agree with you there.

Examples of financially successful minor league organizations with budgets > $500k?



The Harlem Globetrotters and the Rochester Razorsharks.

The Harlem Globetrotters don't constitute a good example of what I asked for. It's an entertainment icon, nothing like independent minor league basketball. It's more analogous to a circus (in a good way.) And, Rochester has lost money every year in existence.

But, either way I enjoy your posts because I still think you are the second smartest poster on the board.:D

[DazedAndAmused]

I'm suggesting that ownership groups should be diverse and community centered. Knowing that..egos would not come into play. I could name eight non-major league baseball teams that have 20 or more owners and none of which are "train wrecks". If the CBA wants long term stable existence in small towns a community approach is really the only way to go. The Green Bay Packers have done it for years, this is nothing new.

I really don't want to belabor this, but the Packers are a major league franchise (that most of understand has a unique ownership structure) and baseball....well, baseball is America's past-time, with secure backing from the majors. We're talking minor league basketball here. There is not a public thirst for it, and it has been overly diluted with poor quality product. It's apples and celery sticks.

[bectond]

Well, this is getting down to semantics as reason requires logic and logic requires reason in all practical applications. We can go through that exercise if we must. But, my simple point is that I am discussing today's environment and what survival today and tomorrow will look like. And, yes the numbers do matter and require focus.

You seem to be talking about "pie in the sky." I won't argue with you about the way perhaps things should be, but I am commenting about the way they are now and will likely be for the foreseeable future. Do I want a world of $1M minor league budgets...sure. But, the house of minor league basketball needs to be re-built brick by brick, and I don't believe your approach is right right now for that cause .

As far as invest opportunities go, there are alot of great possibilities in both solar and wind. I agree with you there.

Examples of financially successful minor league organizations with budgets > $500k?

The PBL can go low-budget, but there really isn't a place for the CBA in the low-budget basketball world with it's 150K franchise fee, yearly dues and high monthly fees. Do you know how much they charge to be in that league? Nobody is going to elect to pay that kind of money when they can join the PBL or ABA for little to nothing. The CBA has to sell value due to it's cost structure, they don't have any other choice. I'm not giving you pie in the sky, they CAN NOT go any other way. They have to go the community centered route.


The Harlem Globetrotters don't constitute a good example of what I asked for. It's an entertainment icon, nothing like independent minor league basketball. It's more analogous to a circus (in a good way.) And, Rochester has lost money every year in existence.

But, either way I enjoy your posts because I still think you are the second smartest poster on the board.:D

And the current CBA is not a circus, Oh I get it's a circus in a bad way.

[DazedAndAmused]

The PBL can go low-budget, but there really isn't a place for the CBA in the low-budget basketball world with it's 150K franchise fee, yearly dues and high monthly fees. Do you know how much they charge to be in that league? Nobody is going to elect to pay that kind of money when they can join the PBL or ABA for little to nothing. The CBA has to sell value due to it's cost structure, they don't have any other choice. I'm not giving you pie in the sky, they CAN NOT go any other way. They have to go the community centered route.



And the current CBA is not a circus, Oh I get it's a circus in a bad way.

This is on the CBA forum I realize, but my comments are really directed and at independent minor league basketball in general. Sadly, even a 250k budget is a few times higher than what most independent minor league teams are spending (yes, I'm throwing the IBL and ABA teams in there to get the stats up.) I actually don't think that the CBA dues will remain $150k, but I do think that they will eventually come back stronger than ever. But, I don't think it will be next year.

[TEN]

I've had two different experiences with large ownership groups...one good...one not so...

The Dodge City Legend has a 15 person ownership group that worked very well. They hired me to be the general manager...and left me alone...we had meetings every month or so...i met with an accountant in the ownership group day to day...and those guys bought their tickets and sponsorships and never interfered... a pretty good (and successful) experience until the end of my time there...

The last two years in Oklahoma with the Storm were another story....you had fans in the ownership group who thought they should be involved in the day to day stuff...even when they were getting drunk at ballgames...they didn't get along with each other...they had confrontations with the coaching staff...said stupid stuff to the players...etc...

I have definately seen it both ways!

[nksports]

Now, to pose a question to everyone: What will it take for minor league basketball to be a success in the US? Will it take merging of leagues, somehow getting everyone together and creating the same system baseball has, or something else?

The biggest thing it would take would be a change in basketball culture. Where I live, the average Kansas Collegiate Athletic Conference game (NAIA Division II) draws more than the average minor league basketball game. Our local team, a small college with about 500 students, averages maybe 1,000 a night in a gym that seats 1,800, more in years when the team is competitive.
College is still king.
When the NBA was allowing high school grads to come out, the D-League had a chance to break out if it would have taken the ones who were not quite ready for prime time, but the one-year in college rule has given the colleges a breather. It would make more sense for the NBA to have a league for high school grads who wouldn't have gone to college (thus depriving Kansas State it's one good year).
Some NBA teams are using their D-League teams like Class AAA baseball. Some (the Lakers come to mind), use their teams like reserve teams.
The ABA, PBL, CBA etc. right now have no apparent purpose in terms of what happens with its players. If they move up, great. If not, so what.
If there is a new model, it is going to come from, of all places, the shoe companies. They are already tired of dealing with those darned high school and college eligibility standards. In the future, you may see some sort of 6- to 8-team Nike League as well as an addidas League.
You may see a shift from prep and college basketball to club, which is the way it's done in Europe. Now whether a model like this can sell tickets and make money is anybody's guess.
Here endith my rant.

[DazedAndAmused]

The biggest thing it would take would be a change in basketball culture. Where I live, the average Kansas Collegiate Athletic Conference game (NAIA Division II) draws more than the average minor league basketball game. Our local team, a small college with about 500 students, averages maybe 1,000 a night in a gym that seats 1,800, more in years when the team is competitive.
College is still king.
When the NBA was allowing high school grads to come out, the D-League had a chance to break out if it would have taken the ones who were not quite ready for prime time, but the one-year in college rule has given the colleges a breather. It would make more sense for the NBA to have a league for high school grads who wouldn't have gone to college (thus depriving Kansas State it's one good year).
Some NBA teams are using their D-League teams like Class AAA baseball. Some (the Lakers come to mind), use their teams like reserve teams.
The ABA, PBL, CBA etc. right now have no apparent purpose in terms of what happens with its players. If they move up, great. If not, so what.
If there is a new model, it is going to come from, of all places, the shoe companies. They are already tired of dealing with those darned high school and college eligibility standards. In the future, you may see some sort of 6- to 8-team Nike League as well as an addidas League.
You may see a shift from prep and college basketball to club, which is the way it's done in Europe. Now whether a model like this can sell tickets and make money is anybody's guess.
Here endith my rant.

NK, I agree with much of this, all the way up to the nike or adidas league (already done by And 1 to a degree with some relative success.) This works because there is a single brand to be reinforced from companies making 100s of millions that can justify funding such leagues as a marketing expense. I do however think they will stay under the category of "niche leagues" that wont have strong ties to the local communities.

However, I see the NBA going way before I see a shift from Division 1 college basketball. You already implied why. TV ratings and ticket sales (by certain metrics) are much great for college basketball. That translates to money. Some of the strongest brand names in sports are from major D1 colleges, not NBA teams. Personally I have a problem with this (see my prior rants) because we end up with students who do not meet even the below average standards of other students at their respective schools. Bluntly, they have no business being at those schools in many, many cases. It makes a mockery of higher education. So, while I wish there was a venue for these players, such as a U23 league funded by the NBA, I don't see it happening.

[DazedAndAmused]

Related, I talked to an agent today who discussed the impact of the weak dollar on prospective (or existing) middle tier NBA players. Many are doing the simple math and now more than ever are opting for the Euro leagues. This isn't breaking news I know, but the weak dollar is having a bigger effect than many realize as of late. It is happening in hockey as well.

[nksports]

Personally I have a problem with this (see my prior rants) because we end up with students who do not meet even the below average standards of other students at their respective schools. Bluntly, they have no business being at those schools in many, many cases. It makes a mockery of higher education.

I strongly agree and disagree with this at the same time. A lot of these kids aren't dummies. They have never been given the motivation to do well in school at any level. We seem to be on this kick of telling eighth graders you don't need to study and apply yourself, you'll be in the NBA by age 19 or 20.
The school I was talking about earlier (Bethel, Kan.) doesn't produce many pro athletes (about four or five football players, who played af2 and APFL; and two basketball players -- one who spent a season with the Kansas Cagerz of the USBL and one who played with the team that plays the Globetrotters every night). The same school graduates over 80 percent of its football and men's basketball players (and the administration looks at that as too low and is trying to push it up) and over 90 percent of its other athletes. Four teams had team GPAs of 3.0 or better. Three were better than 3.3. I'm not sure they even lead their conference.
Most successful athletes are very smart. They may not all have degrees, but most have the brain matter to earn one if properly motivated.
If you look at NCAA grade and graduation stats for all sports other than football, men's basketball and baseball, across the board, they are much higher than the rest of the student body.
Where this and the minor leagues intersect is, for the kid who has a chance to make a lot of money playing pro ball, (if they apply themselves in high school) college will always be there at the end of your career.

[bectond]

[QUOTE=nksports;96876]
The ABA, PBL, CBA etc. right now have no apparent purpose in terms of what happens with its players. If they move up, great. If not, so what.
QUOTE]

I agree that the PBL does not have a clear purpose, but I don't agree with you on the CBA and ABA. The purpose of the ABA is to enrich the infamous JN. The CBA should be a reclamation league, a place where players re-establish themselves after injury, personal issues or on court failures.
Maybe the owners need to repeal the salary cap (I think increased CBA payrolls would attract more investors, better talent and separate the CBA from the other newer leagues). IMO big named players in small remote locations with large ownership groups is the way to go for the CBA.