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not so fast
05-05-2008, 03:02 PM
It is about time for the PBL and the CBA to update what is going on. As a fan of both leagues, I thinks it is really crazy it is taking this long for some decisions to be made.

It is now May, and here we have no idea who will be in what league. The PBL office hails itself as great business people, well then why is it taking so long? If the two can't agree, then move on separate ways and start planning your new season, or in my opinion, both will not be any better off than they were last season.

I know one thing, the potential to have a really strong league is there. The D-league has no strangled hold on minorleague basketball by any means. And I would love a new league to come and challenge them.

The summer months should be used to market your league, sell tickets, get sponsors, etc...

Whats really equally as bad about this, is people who are depending on these leagues for their livelihood, coaches, g.ms, etc.. they should not have to be put thru this waiting game.

So GET ON WITH IT and make some decisions and get started!!!

LightningMan
05-05-2008, 03:08 PM
Well spoken. In response, I must say that the reason we're not hearing about it may well be because it's still being pursued / hammered out. I am as eager as anyone to know where the two leagues will be going / what they will be doing in the upcoming season. But from my experiences with Cleveland sports (as a fan and in the media) I know that deals happen when they happen and they take as much time as they take. And in this instance, no news means good news (a merger with CBA or a defection of CBA teams to PBL) is at least still possible.

psbf
05-05-2008, 05:14 PM
There is still the possibility that the leagues will choose not to merge. I think you are leaning into the idea that they will too strongly, One. Of course these are just your opinions. I've not seen any facts supporting them.

MJHankel
05-05-2008, 05:44 PM
It seems to me that the PBL wanted to distance themselves from the control that the ABA had on them which was great. I doubt greatly that the CBA heads are going to want to submit to the will of the PBL heads and I don't think the PBL heads want to be back under some different rules and controls.

The two can both be good separately it would be good if they took to two separate regions instead of their partial overlap but that is just my opinion.

I think that if they both can work on correcting their in-house problems, they can both come out strong.

I do agree though, both leagues need to release info, the silence is frustrating.

DazedAndAmused
05-05-2008, 06:49 PM
I don't see a merger anymore. The leagues are too far apart operationally.

I do see a splintering of teams however, and I think we'll all be suprised on how it turns out and who is left in/out.

My guess is more migration (again, some surprising) to the newer league.

bomp
05-05-2008, 08:54 PM
I don't see a merger anymore. The leagues are too far apart operationally.

I do see a splintering of teams however, and I think we'll all be suprised on how it turns out and who is left in/out.

My guess is more migration (again, some surprising) to the newer league.


You are correct, sir. :D

psbf
05-05-2008, 09:48 PM
that the CBA currently has just 6 teams, with one still in question(Yakima). The CBA can't operate with just 6 teams(RGV, Oklahoma, Pgh, Minot, East Ky. and Albany). It will be interesting to see how things go.

FrontOffice
05-05-2008, 10:36 PM
Nothing will be announced until during/after the CBA owner's meetings May 16-17. As much as it is agony waiting to see what will happen, June 1 still leaves enough time to get everything off the ground no matter what direction it goes.

But I do agree that we will see some teams jumping ship from all leagues.

DazedAndAmused
05-05-2008, 11:01 PM
that the CBA currently has just 6 teams, with one still in question(Yakima). The CBA can't operate with just 6 teams(RGV, Oklahoma, Pgh, Minot, East Ky. and Albany). It will be interesting to see how things go.

I see 4 of this 6 coming back. Hopefully the expansion teams can keep them afloat.

not so fast
05-06-2008, 12:10 AM
Well I am starting to lose my confidence in the PBL front office. I just don't understand what their objective is.

But on the other hand, the league President (who also owns the league champion Rochester) seems as if they have an appreciation for quality basketball. But to do that would mean getting quality players and quality coaches. I know there were some good players in the PBL, but there were more in the CBA as a whole. Rod baker was a successful coach in the CBA, so I know that it would not be fair to say that their are better coaches in the CBA, but Daleo, woolpert, and even Michael ray, are good coaches.

Point is, if the PBL wants to get better, then they have got to give a little to get a little.

I know that Denny Truax (CBA commisioner) is a quality person, so if the PBL people can't work with him, then I am not sure what they are trying to do with this league.

psbf
05-06-2008, 12:27 AM
Well, I can tell you that RGV, Oklahoma and Albany are already selling tickets for next season and I can tell you that the Xplosion will be putting theirs for sale later this summer. I know because I visited their booth this weekend at the local Lifexpo and asked.

DazedAndAmused
05-06-2008, 08:54 AM
Well I am starting to lose my confidence in the PBL front office. I just don't understand what their objective is.

But on the other hand, the league President (who also owns the league champion Rochester) seems as if they have an appreciation for quality basketball. But to do that would mean getting quality players and quality coaches. I know there were some good players in the PBL, but there were more in the CBA as a whole. Rod baker was a successful coach in the CBA, so I know that it would not be fair to say that their are better coaches in the CBA, but Daleo, woolpert, and even Michael ray, are good coaches.

Point is, if the PBL wants to get better, then they have got to give a little to get a little.

I know that Denny Truax (CBA commisioner) is a quality person, so if the PBL people can't work with him, then I am not sure what they are trying to do with this league.

Here is the good/bad (from the perspective of the PBL) from what I can tell:

1. CBA geography = bad
2. CBA financials = bad
3. CBA length of season = bad
4. CBA long term prospects = marginal
5. CBA name = damaged right now (but not beyond repair)
6. CBA presentation = good
7. CBA rank among the independent minor leagues = good

I don't see any way to overcome 1, 2, & 3 right now.

DazedAndAmused
05-06-2008, 08:56 AM
Well, I can tell you that RGV, Oklahoma and Albany are already selling tickets for next season and I can tell you that the Xplosion will be putting theirs for sale later this summer. I know because I visited their booth this weekend at the local Lifexpo and asked.

I'm not sure that means they're coming back to the CBA though.

Ken, Steelheads fan
05-06-2008, 09:58 AM
Well I am starting to lose my confidence in the PBL front office. I just don't understand what their objective is.

But on the other hand, the league President (who also owns the league champion Rochester) seems as if they have an appreciation for quality basketball. But to do that would mean getting quality players and quality coaches. I know there were some good players in the PBL, but there were more in the CBA as a whole. Rod baker was a successful coach in the CBA, so I know that it would not be fair to say that their are better coaches in the CBA, but Daleo, woolpert, and even Michael ray, are good coaches.

Point is, if the PBL wants to get better, then they have got to give a little to get a little.

I know that Denny Truax (CBA commisioner) is a quality person, so if the PBL people can't work with him, then I am not sure what they are trying to do with this league.

Well, there seems to be one thing we agree on. The PBL seems to be too ego driven. I remember when the PBL sent-out a press release on providing health care for the players. Why put that in a press release?!? The only reason I can imagine is, Look ABA! Look at what WE have and you don't have.

DazedAndAmused
05-06-2008, 10:18 AM
Well, there seems to be one thing we agree on. The PBL seems to be too ego driven. I remember when the PBL sent-out a press release on providing health care for the players. Why put that in a press release?!? The only reason I can imagine is, Look ABA! Look at what WE have and you don't have.

Um...healthcare for players at the league level is a good thing, isn't it? I talk to players all of the time about the horror stories after injuries (both major and minor) and how their minor league teams (some would hit close to home for you Ken) managed the situation (or more accurately, didnt.)

Ken, only you and Joe Newman see every PBL move as calculated to hurt the ABA! (Hmmm, interesting...maybe something in the Indiana water?) The truth is that the PBL could care less about the ABA (or the IBL), as the ABA in particular seems to be burying itself with little help from the outside. Now, I do think they care about the CBA. (We'll see what/if anything happens there.)

But, let's talk about things that you know. Tell me about healthcare in the IBL these days, or average player salary, or consistency in schedule, or average number of D1 players, or average attendance. Let's then compare to the other leagues, even the ABA, and see where things pan out.

I'll toss you one bone here though. Though I don't know the guys at the top, I do think egos are at play.

psbf
05-06-2008, 10:23 AM
At this point, DandA, I agree that it does not look good for the CBA. But I don't care where the X play, even if they end up in the PBL(which looks likely at this point). I'm ready to buy my tickets.

DazedAndAmused
05-06-2008, 10:29 AM
At this point, DandA, I agree that it does not look good for the CBA. But I don't care where the X play, even if they end up in the PBL(which looks likely at this point). I'm ready to buy my tickets.

I think the CBA will be OK either way, though it will be a rebuilding year. And, I believe your X will be playing no matter what.

preeths
05-06-2008, 10:44 AM
I don't believe there is any love lost between the ABA and PBL, but I also don't believe the owners of the PBL base their business on trying to make the ABA look bad. That would be a waste of time as the ABA does a good enough job of that itself. You can't read every PBL press release and announcement as an indication they're thumbing their noses at the ABA. They're just conducting their business.

not so fast
05-06-2008, 01:33 PM
I have talked to league officials for a year from the PBL, from the president on down to game scorekeepers. No one has never mentioned the ABA to me, so I don't think that they have a ax to grind.

I think they just have some people who were tired of how the ABA was being run (or not run). Everyone knows the ABA is a joke, in fact I rarely even mention it or think of it.

But still the PBL needs a mission statement soon, it is not clear to me what their intent is. At least the IBL has a vision. I was talking to an NBA coach a couple of days ago, and he said to me "I can't keep up with all of those leagues, its confusing". Thats what is going on today in modern minorleague basketball.

I remember back in the 90's when it was only the CBA, and the IBA. And I would have thought that more leagues would have been great for more opportunities. But it actually is diluting basketball to the point that it is losing crediblity. NBA people or anyone else for that matter, is not on these message boards keeping up with all of this crap, so they don't know who is legit and who isn't .

Its time to stop the madness!!

Ken, Steelheads fan
05-06-2008, 02:17 PM
Um...healthcare for players at the league level is a good thing, isn't it? I talk to players all of the time about the horror stories after injuries (both major and minor) and how their minor league teams (some would hit close to home for you Ken) managed the situation (or more accurately, didnt.)

Ken, only you and Joe Newman see every PBL move as calculated to hurt the ABA! (Hmmm, interesting...maybe something in the Indiana water?) The truth is that the PBL could care less about the ABA (or the IBL), as the ABA in particular seems to be burying itself with little help from the outside. Now, I do think they care about the CBA. (We'll see what/if anything happens there.)

But, let's talk about things that you know. Tell me about healthcare in the IBL these days, or average player salary, or consistency in schedule, or average number of D1 players, or average attendance. Let's then compare to the other leagues, even the ABA, and see where things pan out.

I'll toss you one bone here though. Though I don't know the guys at the top, I do think egos are at play.

You never heard me say anything about healthcare being a bad thing. I just didn't see a need for putting that sort of information into a press release. Close to home?!? Unless you're talking about Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield (my healthcare provider), then none of the horror stories pertain to me. Nor do I care about the horror stories. That's just the way it is. I have my own problems to solve.

Why are people automatically lumped with Joe Newman when they criticize the PBL? Is it because I think the PBL is a lousy concept for a league (leaque, as bectond would say)?!? Besides, when did I ever say the PBL's moves are calculated to hurt the ABA? The PBL's moves are calculated to hurt the PBL, IMO.

LightningMan
05-06-2008, 02:34 PM
Why are people automatically lumped with Joe Newman when they criticize the PBL?
First, it isn't when they criticize the PBL. Lots of people here have criticized the PBL. [Even I have, regarding moving the playoffs to Chicago, by the by.] It's when they criticize the PBL about things that they can't know (motivation of league management), when they criticize things the league does that on their face make sense (player health care, higher pay, shorter schedule primarily on weekends), and when they insult the integrity of the league (calling it a leaque) when the PBL is the only unaffiliated winter minor b-ball league to play all of its games (with an asterisk) with the same stable of teams that started the year.

Ken, it's perfectly okay that you have an ax to grind with the PBL. Just don't ask us to pretend you don't. When it comes to the PBL, you're as bad as A1 Sports on Alex Wolff.

LightningMan
05-06-2008, 02:41 PM
But still the PBL needs a mission statement soon, it is not clear to me what their intent is.
I don't think regular people look for or worry about mission statements. There is a need, however, for the PBL to know what their mission is, statement or otherwise. And I personally think they do.

DazedAndAmused
05-06-2008, 03:33 PM
Besides, when did I ever say the PBL's moves are calculated to hurt the ABA? .

Well, you did here.

The only reason I can imagine is, Look ABA! Look at what WE have and you don't have.

None of the leagues are above criticism, including the summer leagues. Criticizing the PBL doesn't make you Joe Newman. Thinking the other guy is always out to get you and publicly talking about it (without any basis), or otherwise promoting some sort of vendetta does, which is what you have implied and stated.

But, your arguments come off jaded, without merit, and often without any fact or information. My only guess is that the PBL and CBA turned your application down.

I'm sorry about that, but if you want to debate about the leagues, let's be objective. There are some good things and some bad things coming out of all of the leagues. But, let's talk facts....player quality, attendance, consistency of schedule, player and coaches pay, statistics, web, TV, national sponsorts, etc, etc.

skippy
05-06-2008, 04:26 PM
Paying players more thinking you will get a better game is a fallacy.

Do people want to see beer-bellies and free throw airballs? No. People will watch something that resembles basketball as long as the basic fundamentals are present.

What is important is that the level of talent is distributed equally and proportionately amongst the teams.

Ever watch the European game?

Some of those guys are making bank, but it doesn't make the game better or more interesting to watch.

I have no connection to those guys, so while it may enjoyable as a curiousity or novelty, it can't hold my interest when it breaks to commercial, and I'm off to find something better.

In the past few years, Mr. Steelheads fan has personally experienced, and most likely with season tickets, the original CBA, The Isiah CBA, the first IBL, the new CBA, the USBL, and now the IBL. I think he is owed a little slack if he isn't drinking the Kool-Aid about the PBL yet. Jaded? Maybe, but I would guess that his foam finger has a callous on it by now.

The PBL's shorter season is smart, weekend games smart, paying more for players not so smart.

I really HOPE that the PBL proves itself longterm to be a more viable option than we have been treated to by minor league basketball recently, time will tell.

DazedAndAmused
05-06-2008, 05:21 PM
Paying players more thinking you will get a better game is a fallacy.

Do people want to see beer-bellies and free throw airballs? No. People will watch something that resembles basketball as long as the basic fundamentals are present.

What is important is that the level of talent is distributed equally and proportionately amongst the teams.

Ever watch the European game?

Some of those guys are making bank, but it doesn't make the game better or more interesting to watch.

I have no connection to those guys, so while it may enjoyable as a curiousity or novelty, it can't hold my interest when it breaks to commercial, and I'm off to find something better.

In the past few years, Mr. Steelheads fan has personally experienced, and most likely with season tickets, the original CBA, The Isiah CBA, the first IBL, the new CBA, the USBL, and now the IBL. I think he is owed a little slack if he isn't drinking the Kool-Aid about the PBL yet. Jaded? Maybe, but I would guess that his foam finger has a callous on it by now.

The PBL's shorter season is smart, weekend games smart, paying more for players not so smart.

I really HOPE that the PBL proves itself longterm to be a more viable option than we have been treated to by minor league basketball recently, time will tell.

Let's be clear. Average player pay is just part of the metric in measuring the minor leagues. There are many other measure sticks we can pull out... completing your schedule, attendance, sponsorship dollars, D1 players, team turnover, etc. (You will generally note that more D1 players = a higher payroll.) The CBA had the best independent minor league players this year, and they had the highest payroll.

Better players do go where they pay more, but I'm not sure who said that made for a better game by itself. The D league has the best minor league players of all of the leagues, and I find their games to be the least exciting of all.

Come with valid, comprehensive arguments and good facts and information, and this board will as a general rule will provide some slack. Otherwise, you'll be viewed as a "bot" with an agenda. Ken may not be that. His posts just leave that impression as others have pointed out.

Peace.

skippy
05-06-2008, 06:58 PM
I agree with much of what you say, however...

Let's talk about all the leagues:

CBA-

The existence of a franchise as shoddily run as the Atlanta Krunk, who at one point played 4 players in a game, brings down the quality of the entire league, and makes the CBA lose an entire letter grade.

If I had shown up to see my team play, and that was the opponent, I don't think I would ever be back.

Michael Tuckman. Period.

Too spread out geographically, too costly to make money.


PBL-

Also with two lame duck teams.

Playoffs in Chicago?

It seems to exist for the Rochester and Maryland owner to win championships and make money. Doesn't appear to have the interest of the other owners at heart.

See independent league baseball, the Goldkang group, Can-am league, American Association, etc.


ABA-

Sucks. We all know why.


D-league-

Sterile, boring, underattended, unexciting, Vanilla. Unoffensive.

Tricks the quality teams from other leagues into thinking that this business model works better. Which we've seen doesn't.


IBL-

Too much difference in talent on the teams.

Otherwise, I don't follow it. Does appear to have some things going for it, like trying to control costs. Does appear to have some ABA tendencies like trying to expand to quickly, high turnover of teams.



Most importantly for all these jokers in these leagues.

Schedule integrity is NOT something you should be graded on.

It's like the Chris Rock joke, someone says indignantly, "I take care of my kids!".

What kind of defense is that! You're supposed to take care of your kids!

Just like you are supposed to play all of your scheduled games.


And some of the best minor league ball players I have ever seen came from schools that were not D1.

DazedAndAmused
05-06-2008, 07:19 PM
I agree with much of what you say, however...

Let's talk about all the leagues:

CBA-

The existence of a franchise as shoddily run as the Atlanta Krunk, who at one point played 4 players in a game, brings down the quality of the entire league, and makes the CBA lose an entire letter grade.

If I had shown up to see my team play, and that was the opponent, I don't think I would ever be back.

Michael Tuckman. Period.

Too spread out geographically, too costly to make money.


PBL-

Also with two lame duck teams.

Playoffs in Chicago?

It seems to exist for the Rochester and Maryland owner to win championships and make money. Doesn't appear to have the interest of the other owners at heart.

See independent league baseball, the Goldkang group, Can-am league, American Association, etc.


ABA-

Sucks. We all know why.


D-league-

Sterile, boring, underattended, unexciting, Vanilla. Unoffensive.

Tricks the quality teams from other leagues into thinking that this business model works better. Which we've seen doesn't.


IBL-

Too much difference in talent on the teams.

Otherwise, I don't follow it. Does appear to have some things going for it, like trying to control costs. Does appear to have some ABA tendencies like trying to expand to quickly, high turnover of teams.



Most importantly for all these jokers in these leagues.

Schedule integrity is NOT something you should be graded on.

It's like the Chris Rock joke, someone says indignantly, "I take care of my kids!".

What kind of defense is that! You're supposed to take care of your kids!

Just like you are supposed to play all of your scheduled games.


And some of the best minor league ball players I have ever seen came from schools that were not D1.

I agree with all of this. I would only amend one statement to: Schedule integrity is NOT something we should HAVE to grade leagues on.

Unfortunately though, we do have to because the independent leagues aren't all getting it done.

Regarding this: And some of the best minor league ball players I have ever seen came from schools that were not D1. I am not doubting this. My emphasis on D1 players is certainly not an absolute. There are individual exceptions. My point is that it is a reasonable part of the minor league measuring stick, and as general rule, your 5 D1 guys are going to beat my 5 D2 and high school guys (provided I don't have Kobe or Lebron.)

Ken, Steelheads fan
05-06-2008, 09:34 PM
Ken, it's perfectly okay that you have an ax to grind with the PBL. Just don't ask us to pretend you don't. When it comes to the PBL, you're as bad as A1 Sports on Alex Wolff.

An axe to grind?!? A1 Sports?!? Geez! I'm merely voicing an opinion...at least you didn't say I was in bed with Joe Newman. :roll:

Okay, okay! I think the PBL is a crummy leaque. Okay, okay! So what if I'm right practically ALL the time (see my previous 960+ posts 8) ). I'm only right because I peek over my big foam fan finger, observe, and use common sense (with all due respect) to reach conclusions. If it helps, I think the present-day CBA is a gosh awful league too.

The passage of time will tell though (and it always does). BTW and speaking of the Chicago PBL team--that team plays on west Harrison street. The Chicago Bulls play on west Madison street (at the United Center)--a stone's throw from Harrison. Do you see what I mean about the PBL? People coming from the east (like people in Northwest Indiana) are expected to by-pass the United Center, possibly while a Bulls game is in process, and attend a Chicago Throwbacks game?!? It doesn't make sense.

DazedAndAmused
05-06-2008, 09:55 PM
An axe to grind?!? A1 Sports?!? Geez! I'm merely voicing an opinion...at least you didn't say I was in bed with Joe Newman. :roll:

Okay, okay! I think the PBL is a crummy leaque. Okay, okay! So what if I'm right practically ALL the time (see my previous 960+ posts 8) ). I'm only right because I peek over my big foam fan finger, observe, and use common sense (with all due respect) to reach conclusions. If it helps, I think the present-day CBA is a gosh awful league too.

Hmm..ok. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe we have misunderstood you. Please help us understand how this is true: and use common sense (with all due respect) to reach conclusions.

I took a look at your recent posts and didn't see it, but I didn't read all of them. How bout using some "evidence" to reach conclusions? Having common sense without fact is an oxymoron. Opinions without fact or knowledge are just noise. Let's talk facts! (PS, I'll stand behind my posts, pro, con, and indifferent in aspects of all of the leagues. You'll see alot of pro from me about the IBL, CBA, PBL....not so much about the ABA admittedly.)

If it helps, I think the present-day CBA is a gosh awful league too It doesn't hurt or help, but it does draw the question, what league do you think is a good league? The IBL? If so, please elaborate on the why's relative to the other leagues. We can then talk about each.

The comparisons to a1 and Newman are extreme, but you do show some of the same tendencies.

LightningMan
05-07-2008, 07:13 AM
BTW and speaking of the Chicago PBL team--that team plays on west Harrison street. The Chicago Bulls play on west Madison street (at the United Center)--a stone's throw from Harrison. Do you see what I mean about the PBL? People coming from the east (like people in Northwest Indiana) are expected to by-pass the United Center, possibly while a Bulls game is in process, and attend a Chicago Throwbacks game?!? It doesn't make sense.
Ken, I have no idea why the Throwbacks (or any other minor league team in a major league market) is in business. But if they are in business, can keep their doors open, and can pay their obligations, I can certainly see why the league might want them in. Please do not confuse the PBL with any of its individual members.

Ken, Steelheads fan
05-07-2008, 09:53 AM
Ken, I have no idea why the Throwbacks (or any other minor league team in a major league market) is in business. But if they are in business, can keep their doors open, and can pay their obligations, I can certainly see why the league might want them in. Please do not confuse the PBL with any of its individual members.

...but isn't the PBL (and every other league, for that matter) defined by their individual member teams?!?

DazedAndAmused
05-07-2008, 10:19 AM
...but isn't the PBL (and every other league, for that matter) defined by their individual member teams?!?

I don't think the words "defined by" are the best fit here, but certainly the collective teams are a "reflection of the league", which is why we all say the ABA is a "bad" league...the teams don't meet their obligations to their fans, players, or each other.

The "league(s)" can address this by doing 2 things:
1. Ensuring in so much as possible that underperformers don't get in
2. If problems do arise, have a contingency plan in place

The CBA and PBL didn't bat 1.000 for sure on #1 this year, but both seemed to live up to #2. We'll see what they do with their problem children in the off season.

Having said this, none of the minor leagues are strong enough to drive things on the ground in the local markets. Ultimately, the teams are individual business entities that operate to a large degree on their own. In most cases, they are not in a position to speak for the league, its values, or its mission. The key is in finding and keeping teams that operate in a manner consistent with the league mission.

skippy
05-07-2008, 01:07 PM
Wouldn't putting a team that could not last long term, in a market right next to an
NBA team, just to get your franchise numbers up, be considered bad business?

How would that fall in line with a league mission?

LightningMan
05-07-2008, 01:16 PM
Wouldn't putting a team that could not last long term, in a market right next to an NBA team, just to get your franchise numbers up, be considered bad business?

How would that fall in line with a league mission?
Your question assumes that the league chooses the markets. Initially this was obviously not the case.

I think the league is looking for funded, well run organizations and will leave it up to the teams to figure out if they can survive where they're at. Remember, the NBA has had teams move as recently as this year.

DazedAndAmused
05-07-2008, 01:25 PM
Wouldn't putting a team that could not last long term, in a market right next to an
NBA team, just to get your franchise numbers up, be considered bad business?

How would that fall in line with a league mission?

I'm not sure either one of us have enough information in front of us to make that call. On face value, maybe it isn't something that I personnally would do, but consider the following:

1. The league office is in Chicago, a team nearby could add value for a few reasons
2. Chicago is at that level of "top tier" cities that is actually compressed of very separate and separated 'burbs and buroughs. If done right, a minor league team could work under those circumstances. I'm am unaware of the proximity relative to where the Bulls play. (I thought the throwbacks played in the Attack Center.) I would not however try this in a second tier city....like a Charlotte, Atlanta, Dallas (yep, i think that was a mistake, perhaps made for some supposed secondary business reasons, with an owner who didn't deliver on basketball or business)
3. There is more international media capability in Chicago....that seems lofty to many (me too) but there may be connection there on which to capitalize

Bottom line though, there is more that goes into these decisions from this league (unlike others) than just adding a new market for the sake of numbers.

skippy
05-07-2008, 02:49 PM
Your question assumes that the league chooses the markets. Initially this was obviously not the case.

I think the league is looking for funded, well run organizations and will leave it up to the teams to figure out if they can survive where they're at. Remember, the NBA has had teams move as recently as this year.


Yes. The league chooses which markets it allows to enter the league. Period. The league is supposed to be looking out for it's own well-being, as well as the well-being of each of it's members. Including, the team it lets in at the last minute, who started the season in the ABA.

The league should have an evaluation commitee that looks at the viability of each market, and makes a decision based on the outcomes of that study, for the good of the entire league.

The team moves in the NBA are not about failing financially, they are about GREED, bending over civic governments, and the need to have 3 pots of gold, when two should be enough.

It has been PROVEN, through the failed attempts of many, many teams, and many, many leagues that these minor league basketball ventures do not work in the top tier major urban centers, and they barely work sometimes in the 2nd and third tier. I can't list all the teams that have been tried in Chicago, but my memory only goes as far back as the CBA Rockers in the 80's. In other words, too frickin' many.

Saying that the league just lets them in and open the doors, and lets the owners sink or swim is very ABA-ish. The chaos that Dallas and Jax caused with cancelled games, Travelers replacing them, etc. ultimately weakens the brand name.

The reason I think that Chicago was a late addition add-on, was because it was.

When the PBL website first came up it only listed the Sharks, Hawks, Sea Dawgs, and I think the Quad City team for several months. Only a few months before the season did the other teams get added.

Again, I have no vendetta against the PBL, but ONLY in minor league basketball would this be considered a top flight organization. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It has a couple of flagship franchises, while the rest flounder. Explain to me again why this any different than the CBA?

not so fast
05-07-2008, 02:57 PM
Since I have been to Attack gym and the United Center more than any of you, let me help out. 1st of all, a Bulls fan would never go to a PBL game, so even though the Attack Gym is a five minute drive from the United Center, it is really irrevelant.

This was a convienience for the league president, and that is the only reason it was used like this, and because of his relationship with the owner of Attack (tim grover) it was made available for all the make up games and potential cancelled games, as well as the showcase.

I can only hope the throwbacks are just that, "Thrownback"!

LightningMan
05-07-2008, 03:27 PM
It has been PROVEN, through the failed attempts of many, many teams, and many, many leagues that these minor league basketball ventures do not work in the top tier major urban centers, and they barely work sometimes in the 2nd and third tier. I can't list all the teams that have been tried in Chicago, but my memory only goes as far back as the CBA Rockers in the 80's. In other words, too frickin' many.
Did you miss the part where I said I don't know why people want to start minor league b-ball teams in major league markets?

Saying that the league just lets them in and open the doors, and lets the owners sink or swim is very ABA-ish.
That's your prerogative. But no league guarantees the success of teams or the viability of markets.

The reason I think that Chicago was a late addition add-on, was because it was.
Besides being a circular assertion, this is an argument no one was making.

Again, I have no vendetta against the PBL, but ONLY in minor league basketball would this be considered a top flight organization.
Another argument no one is making. It is possible to believe the PBL is doing better than its minor league b-ball competition without believing the PBL is "top flight."

It has a couple of flagship franchises, while the rest flounder. Explain to me again why this any different than the CBA?
For starters, all ten teams finished the year. Next, eight of the ten are still around.

Look, it is not my inclination to denigrate the CBA and just as it is possible to believe the PBL is doing better than its competition without thinking it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it is also possible to consider the PBL on their own merits apart from the CBA.

And it's not like the CBA didn't have a team in an NBA market itself.

DazedAndAmused
05-07-2008, 06:08 PM
Again, I have no vendetta against the PBL,

I don't sense one from you. You have some legit points, but there are some on the other side that should be acknowledged as well. Ken does seem to have agenda however....very a1-like. Either he thinks he is making his league look better or his still burning from the rejection letter from the CBA or PBL.

This statement may be sadly true:

ONLY in minor league basketball would this be considered a top flight organization

It has a couple of flagship franchises, while the rest flounder. Explain to me again why this any different than the CBA? I don't think they are very different and I see both leagues as very comparable with both the good and bad. However, even given their problems and questionable decisions, these are still by far the two best independent minor leagues hands down, all seasons. Their competition isn't much admittedly, but they are what we have for now. Maybe they can pull something out of hat. No one else looks to be able to at this point.

Pounder
05-07-2008, 06:14 PM
I'm trying to remember if anyone who "matters" (front office of either league, for instance) publically acknowledged merger talks. It's not always good press to show a league in a bit of trouble, nor to build false expectations. I know people here have pretty constantly talked about a merger, but I'd be surprised if league officials did anything of the sort. Nor will they unless a merger actually happens. I doubt there's any movement anyway.

Ken, Steelheads fan
05-07-2008, 07:17 PM
I've never heard anyone that matters discuss a merger. I've only heard it on this forum.

Again, I have no vendetta against the PBL,

I don't sense one from you. You have some legit points, but there are some on the other side that should be acknowledged as well. Ken does seem to have agenda however....very a1-like. Either he thinks he is making his league look better or his still burning from the rejection letter from the CBA or PBL.


Geez! I don't have a league. The Steelheads play in the IBL. Is that what you mean?!? Last year I thought the IBL was junk. The IBL is looking better and better to me now. Last year I thought the PBL was junk. The PBL still looks like junk to me (for all the reasons I've given). It's that simple.

I check my post office box often, but I have not received a rejection letter (or any other correspondence) from the CBA or PBL. :rolleyes:

skippy
05-07-2008, 07:25 PM
Did you miss the part where I said I don't know why people want to start minor league b-ball teams in major league markets?


That's your prerogative. But no league guarantees the success of teams or the viability of markets.


Besides being a circular assertion, this is an argument no one was making.


Another argument no one is making. It is possible to believe the PBL is doing better than its minor league b-ball competition without believing the PBL is "top flight."


For starters, all ten teams finished the year. Next, eight of the ten are still around.

Look, it is not my inclination to denigrate the CBA and just as it is possible to believe the PBL is doing better than its competition without thinking it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it is also possible to consider the PBL on their own merits apart from the CBA.

And it's not like the CBA didn't have a team in an NBA market itself.



Firstly, I was responding to another posters comments when you say I am arguing points that no one was making. Try to read other posters comments and you will see that we are having a conversation and dialogue where we exchange thoughts and ideas, agreeing sometimes, and sometimes ageeing to disagree. We are not just waiting for Lightning man to weigh in. Sometimes, we post to each other and sometimes it's to a more general audience. Try and figure it out.

In legitimate sports leagues, affiliated baseball, D-league basketball, market analysis is done to see if a market can handle a sports team. The leagues have done analysis on most cities of any substantial size in the country. They do not guarantee success, but they give an actual look, through projections, of what an owner might expect in that market. Sports Business Daily also does this annually, in layman's terms, so the public can kind of see what goes into the thought process. Take a look at a copy. Then come back and tell me that it isn't irresponsible for league officials to place teams in markets where they know they will fail.

The CBA is guilty of this as well, with Atlanta.

The PBL and the CBA should both be denigrated equally for their myopic visions and delusions.

LightningMan
05-08-2008, 08:38 AM
Firstly, I was responding to another posters comments when you say I am arguing points that no one was making.
Whose?

Then come back and tell me that it isn't irresponsible for league officials to place teams in markets where they know they will fail.
The leagues didn't place the teams in the market. The owners did. Perhaps you can criticize the league for accepting the teams being in said markets, but the league didn't place them there. That is what I have been saying.

The PBL and the CBA should both be denigrated equally for their myopic visions and delusions.
Fans, however, have a tendency to be hyperopic, in that they forget that leagues in the short term might have to accept a Chicago Throwbacks, Dallas Defenders, or Atlanta Krunk just to live long enough for there to be a long term.

LightningMan
05-08-2008, 08:45 AM
I'm trying to remember if anyone who "matters" (front office of either league, for instance) publicly acknowledged merger talks.
No one I have seen. But I do recall someone who is a journalist who posts here (I'm thinking Chuck or Fells) having said they've talked to someone in the league about it, so I am inclined to believe whether or not it happens that it has been discussed.

DazedAndAmused
05-08-2008, 09:40 AM
The IBL is looking better and better to me now. Last year I thought the PBL was junk. The PBL still looks like junk to me (for all the reasons I've given). It's that simple.

I don't see your objective reasons as to why the IBL is "good" or why the PBL is "bad." Give us some facts! (i'll start you off with the only things i can discern from your posts.)

I like the IBL because:

1. they lose less money?
2.
3.

I don't like the PBL because:
1. of my impression of the perception
2. they allowed a team in from Chicago
3.


..then we'll take a look objectively.

formerlyknownasfells
05-08-2008, 10:16 AM
No one I have seen. But I do recall someone who is a journalist who posts here (I'm thinking Chuck or Fells) having said they've talked to someone in the league about it, so I am inclined to believe whether or not it happens that it has been discussed.

It has been discussed and this has been confirmed by multiple sources. Honestly, no one is saying a word about the possible merger either on or off the record so I have no clue what is going on.

preeths
05-08-2008, 11:23 AM
I've never heard anyone that matters discuss a merger. I've only heard it on this forum.

I have heard it off this forum from people who would know.

not so fast
05-08-2008, 11:42 AM
Well inasmuch I hate to have to agree with ken, the fact is, no one from the league offices of either league has officially put out a statement or said anything publicly about a possible merger.

And therein lies the problem. This way no one is officially on the record, then they cannot be held accountable for anything.

I can only hope this speculation ends soon. I really think the PBL office has a plan that only a couple of people are privvy to. This is troubling, because they need other teams and cities, to be a part a successful league, and those teams should have some input.

DazedAndAmused
05-08-2008, 01:06 PM
Well inasmuch I hate to have to agree with ken, the fact is, no one from the league offices of either league has officially put out a statement or said anything publicly about a possible merger.

And therein lies the problem. This way no one is officially on the record, then they cannot be held accountable for anything.

I can only hope this speculation ends soon. I really think the PBL office has a plan that only a couple of people are privvy to. This is troubling, because they need other teams and cities, to be a part a successful league, and those teams should have some input.

I 'd like a final answer on this as well, but it would be terrible business in this case to disclose the "possibility of a merger" officially, unless the two sides are close. (I don't think they are frankly.) There two many issues at play and in doing so you potentially hurt your fallback position. There are more than a few people who know that these discussions have occurred, but the talks are not far enough along to mean anything or stir up the associated questions. We'll just have to wait and see.

preeths
05-08-2008, 04:12 PM
No one who knows what they're doing is going to put out a release on a possible merger. Publicly, they'd be more likely to try to quash any rumor, not matter what was going on behind the scenes. DandA is right, it would be terrible business. Nobody really needs to he accountable for merger talk until they make a public statement. That's another reason leagues generally keep quiet.

skippy
05-08-2008, 05:54 PM
Whose?


The leagues didn't place the teams in the market. The owners did. Perhaps you can criticize the league for accepting the teams being in said markets, but the league didn't place them there. That is what I have been saying.


Fans, however, have a tendency to be hyperopic, in that they forget that leagues in the short term might have to accept a Chicago Throwbacks, Dallas Defenders, or Atlanta Krunk just to live long enough for there to be a long term.

I was responding to DazedandAmused.

Herein lies the difference in our philosophies. Crap is crap. If it's crap today, it will be crap tomorrow. You want to play with crap, you become crap yourself. Would the CBA/PBL be better served by playing an uneven schedule and not having that extra game, or by having the Krunk show up with 4 players?

Only in minor league basketball, would someone try to argue that you should have teams of 2nd tier or lower quality if it means survival of the brand/league. Going by your logic, the ABA is the biggest success story in the history of sports. How's the acceptance of lower level teams worked out for that league?

I'd like to know if you ever worked in pro sports, served on an expansion committee, done a feasibility study, or had any life experience?
or if your wildly inventive ideas are based on watching the ABA and PBL.

DazedAndAmused
05-08-2008, 08:34 PM
I was responding to DazedandAmused.

Herein lies the difference in our philosophies. Crap is crap. If it's crap today, it will be crap tomorrow. You want to play with crap, you become crap yourself. Would the CBA/PBL be better served by playing an uneven schedule and not having that extra game, or by having the Krunk show up with 4 players?

Only in minor league basketball, would someone try to argue that you should have teams of 2nd tier or lower quality if it means survival of the brand/league. Going by your logic, the ABA is the biggest success story in the history of sports. How's the acceptance of lower level teams worked out for that league?

I'd like to know if you ever worked in pro sports, served on an expansion committee, done a feasibility study, or had any life experience?
or if your wildly inventive ideas are based on watching the ABA and PBL.


Whoah cowboy...u tawkin to me? (I can't tell who this post speaks to.)

Where did i ever suggest any of this? when did i say showing up with 4 players is acceptable? You don't believe in schedule integrity? you'd rather cancel games and end up with uneven schedules? please clarify what your position here is and what you think mine is, and then I'll respond. i recognize none of my words here, and you seem to be making assumptions about my positions.

Let's talk facts, don't twist words, and we can have a legitimate debate.

To answer your last questions (if to me)...yes on all fronts....with the latter in particular. Look at the history of my posts. But, I am compelled to ask you the same questions now because I can't follow your end game here or what nerve has been touched.

Is it that i don't give props to the IBL beyond being a nice summer league? (which it is) If losing less is the barometer of the 4 or 5 most organized US minor leagues....UNCLE...they win because they budget less to begin with. (Nothing is wrong with that.) The only reason why the "IBL" has come up (at least from me) is because we have self proclaimed IBL guys (dunno whether they're mere fans, owners, or leaguers) lobbing tomatos at the CBA and PBL.

Or, is it that a couple of us step up when someone calls out these leagues as "crap"...heck, they aren't perfect and they both have made some bonehead moves, but I still believe they are the highest level of independent minor leagues with the most potential we have left.

I keep asking for objective criteria to talk about...not "impressions of perceptions" or just calling the leagues "crap." Let's not pretend there aren't agendas at play.

misenern
05-08-2008, 09:32 PM
Whoah cowboy...u tawkin to me? (I can't tell who this post speaks to.)

Where did i ever suggest any of this? when did i say showing up with 4 players is acceptable? You don't believe in schedule integrity? you'd rather cancel games and end up with uneven schedules? please clarify what your position here is and what you think mine is, and then I'll respond. i recognize none of my words here, and you seem to be making assumptions about my positions.

Let's talk facts, don't twist words, and we can have a legitimate debate.

To answer your last questions (if to me)...yes on all fronts....with the latter in particular. Look at the history of my posts. But, I am compelled to ask you the same questions now because I can't follow your end game here or what nerve has been touched.

Is it that i don't give props to the IBL beyond being a nice summer league? (which it is) If losing less is the barometer of the 4 or 5 most organized US minor leagues....UNCLE...they win because they budget less to begin with. (Nothing is wrong with that.) The only reason why the "IBL" has come up (at least from me) is because we have self proclaimed IBL guys (dunno whether they're mere fans, owners, or leaguers) lobbing tomatos at the CBA and PBL.

Or, is it that a couple of us step up when someone calls out these leagues as "crap"...heck, they aren't perfect and they both have made some bonehead moves, but I still believe they are the highest level of independent minor leagues with the most potential we have left.

I keep asking for objective criteria to talk about...not "impressions of perceptions" or just calling the leagues "crap." Let's not pretend there aren't agendas at play.

Skippy was only responding to LightningMan. LightningMan had asked who Skippy was referring to in a previous post, which is why your name was dropped. I know this because I actually read this thread.

skippy
05-08-2008, 09:44 PM
DazedandAmused, I sent you a PM because I think you and I are actually both expressing the same opinions and I don't want their to be a misunderstanding. Earlier on, you and I were discussing the Chicago PBL situation, and that is the only reason your name was brought up. I do believe in schedule integrity, playing games,etc. What I was trying to say is: If you only have 7 good teams, go with it, don't add an 8th just to make things even, because that 8th team may eventually show up with 4 players, or need to be replaced by the ""Travelers" {Which no one here has condoned}

To clarify my position: I would rather the teams had traveling teams or "All-stars", if they don't have enough to round out the schedule.

I think you and I are having debate based on fact, I hope that we can continue to do so.

I'm not trying to twist anyone's words.

I wasn't calling the CBA or PBL crap, I was calling the Krunk, Defenders, and Jam "crap", and making the observation that the CBA and PBL shouldn't be including those types of underfunded, poor performing organizations. It reflects badly upon them when they do so.

DazedAndAmused
05-08-2008, 10:02 PM
DazedandAmused, I sent you a PM because I think you and I are actually both expressing the same opinions and I don't want their to be a misunderstanding. Earlier on, you and I were discussing the Chicago PBL situation, and that is the only reason your name was brought up. I do believe in schedule integrity, playing games,etc. What I was trying to say is: If you only have 7 good teams, go with it, don't add an 8th just to make things even, because that 8th team may eventually show up with 4 players, or need to be replaced by the ""Travelers" {Which no one here has condoned}

To clarify my position: I would rather the teams had traveling teams or "All-stars", if they don't have enough to round out the schedule.

I think you and I are having debate based on fact, I hope that we can continue to do so.

I'm not trying to twist anyone's words.

I wasn't calling the CBA or PBL crap, I was calling the Krunk, Defenders, and Jam "crap", and making the observation that the CBA and PBL shouldn't be including those types of underfunded, poor performing organizations. It reflects badly upon them when they do so.

Sounds like we are on the same page...including your last paragraph. And, I think the PBL and CBA would agree with your last paragraph.

I'll have misenern approve my posts from now on so that he/(she) can make sure I am talking to right person(s). :)

DazedAndAmused
05-08-2008, 10:05 PM
Skippy was only responding to LightningMan. LightningMan had asked who Skippy was referring to in a previous post, which is why your name was dropped. I know this because I actually read this thread.

Thought I had too.......never mix beer and OSC.

LightningMan
05-08-2008, 10:32 PM
Only in minor league basketball, would someone try to argue that you should have teams of 2nd tier or lower quality if it means survival of the brand/league. Going by your logic, the ABA is the biggest success story in the history of sports. How's the acceptance of lower level teams worked out for that league?
It's really easy to "win" an internet argument when you turn what people are saying into whatever you want. I am no more saying that the ABA is the biggest success story in the history of sports than you are saying that a league with such high standards that it has no member teams whatever would be the biggest success in sports.

If we could have a discussion somewhere in the vicinity of what people are actually saying, this argument is about is again about letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. No one, including me, is saying that weak franchises are the ideal. But (and this is the one thing you did quote me close to accurately on) I do posit that having a league is better than not having one and if in year one you have to take what you can get as far as teams go, it's better to do that than scuttle the league entirely.

The dissolution of the Chicago Aztecas threatened the credibility of the league and its schedule right at the very start. The Chicago Throwbacks were a godsend from the PBL perspective, in that the schedule could be maintained, with the casual fan thinking that the Chicago team just changed its name.

And in the Throwbacks defense I will point out this: it was not they, but the other franchise in an NBA market (Dallas), that failed, and the other failed franchise wasn't even in an NBA market.

LightningMan
05-08-2008, 10:36 PM
I'd like to know if you ever worked in pro sports, served on an expansion committee, done a feasibility study, or had any life experience?
I missed this little snark earlier, but I will address it now: I covered the Browns, Indians, and Cavaliers for radio for a few years in the 90s and am probably older than you. Am I allowed to have an opinion now, Skippy?:rolleyes:

skippy
05-08-2008, 11:40 PM
It's really easy to "win" an internet argument when you turn what people are saying into whatever you want. I am no more saying that the ABA is the biggest success story in the history of sports than you are saying that a league with such high standards that it has no member teams whatever would be the biggest success in sports.

If we could have a discussion somewhere in the vicinity of what people are actually saying, this argument is about is again about letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. No one, including me, is saying that weak franchises are the ideal. But (and this is the one thing you did quote me close to accurately on) I do posit that having a league is better than not having one and if in year one you have to take what you can get as far as teams go, it's better to do that than scuttle the league entirely.

The dissolution of the Chicago Aztecas threatened the credibility of the league and its schedule right at the very start. The Chicago Throwbacks were a godsend from the PBL perspective, in that the schedule could be maintained, with the casual fan thinking that the Chicago team just changed its name.

And in the Throwbacks defense I will point out this: it was not they, but the other franchise in an NBA market (Dallas), that failed, and the other failed franchise wasn't even in an NBA market.

When the survival of the league is it stake, owners of reputable leagues make a travel team or a Washington Generals. Which the PBL eventually did with the Traveler's. Throwing a team or market to the wolves is not a good business practice.

You are correct, Dallas and Jax failed. Big time.

My guess is Chicago will go soon too.

It is not my position that you not be allowed to have an opinion. I am really not interested in having an argument. I am having a hard time following your logic that a league should allow a team with no chance in is all. I'm not asking for perfection, just sound LONG TERM business decisions and the evidence of progress.

The CBA limped to the finish line and with the travelers and the Texas Tycoons playing as the Defenders, the PBL did too.

LightningMan
05-09-2008, 07:56 AM
I am having a hard time following your logic that a league should allow a team with no chance in is all. I'm not asking for perfection, just sound LONG TERM business decisions and the evidence of progress.
While I agree with you that any team placed in an NBA market has less of a chance of success (IMO a minuscule chance), it truly is impossible to say whether any team placed anywhere has no chance. The Dallas Defenders and Texas Tycoons both play in the Dallas - Fort Worth market, but the Tycoons managed to live several years through the dysfunctional ABA and to cover for the Defenders this year. The ABA put a zillion teams into the Chicago market and the only one still around are the Throwbacks.

The location of a team is important to their marketability, but so is the quality of the ownership group.
The CBA limped to the finish line and with the travelers and the Texas Tycoons playing as the Defenders, the PBL did too.
Let's not forget the hastily assembled Jacksonville SLAM, which, BTW, is very germane to all this discussion of foresightedness. The Jacksonville owner was one of those who appeared to have solid marketing, a quality team, and theoretically deep enough pockets. Most people were predicting trouble out of the Chicago Aztecas (location), Dallas (location), and Arkansas (city track record). Nobody was thinking Jacksonville, which shows that even with foresight, things happen. (But then again, it has been speculated that Jacksonville JAM ownership joined the league with the intent on blowing it up during the middle of the season, so there's that.)

The Defenders and the Aztecas are clearly a failure of the PBL vetting process. No one that I know says differently. They were first year mistakes that were understandable given the circumstances. The test for the league going forward is whether the mistakes are repeated.

runninref
05-09-2008, 08:15 AM
Chicago will stay as it is a cost effective venue and the safety net location for the league. Remember the super showcase? Remember that Jax and Dallas played home games there as well. The PBL is not in direct competition with the NBA, therefore the location in Chicago should not be an issue.:mrgreen:

misenern
05-09-2008, 09:34 AM
Thought I had too.......never mix beer and OSC.

That's a leathal mix. I appove this post.

Pounder
05-09-2008, 12:31 PM
That's a leathal mix. I appove this post.

No fun. One of these Fridays, we should all show up drunk.

--------------------

The PBL's biggest weakness is its newness. The second biggest is that, IMO, they probably skipped the vetting process when they realized they were having trouble getting numbers. Both those things can be overcome.

The IBL doesn't deliver on a few of its promises (the travel out west being a key one), and having gone through a bit of the history, that story I was told about the 3rd year payment being a steep impediment seems to have a leg or two. That may have been adjusted by now... but I'm not certain of the long-term survival of the western base of teams here. Something's not panning out, but if they fully develop a midwestern niche, more power to them. They'll never be more than a niche because of their low-drag style, so to speak.

The CBA... they've probably skimped and/or skipped the vetting for at least a couple years now. That's due to knowledge- they know they're in trouble. There's probably enough ego- or knowledge, I don't know which- that keeps them from wanting to merge. (My speculation- they believe they market through the media by having more games to report on. Yes, hardly more than speculation.) I'm curious to know what trump card anyone there possesses that keeps them from giving up the ghost right this minute, frankly.

runninref
05-09-2008, 12:51 PM
Why would the PBL want to buy the CBA? This is something I have never understood. Is it the name "CBA"? If you can explain it, then please tell me. I do know three offers have been turned down cold. It seems to me that with the recent crossing over of ABA northeast teams (as it appears is the case) that the PBL has no reason to buy the CBA even for it's name, unless there is some kind of deal brewing for some midwest teams. The annual CBA owner's meeting is in a few days. I suspect we won't hear a thing until that takes place. I just hope the PBL doesn't get too big too soon as it is a fun and reasonably stable league. I think a controlled growth would have been the smarter way to go.:mrgreen:

Ken, Steelheads fan
05-09-2008, 01:08 PM
The CBA... they've probably skimped and/or skipped the vetting for at least a couple years now. That's due to knowledge- they know they're in trouble. There's probably enough ego- or knowledge, I don't know which- that keeps them from wanting to merge. (My speculation- they believe they market through the media by having more games to report on. Yes, hardly more than speculation.) I'm curious to know what trump card anyone there possesses that keeps them from giving up the ghost right this minute, frankly.

The CBA's trump card?!? The franchise fees. If the CEO of CBA Properties (approximately the same position he held with the ABA) can't sell new franchises, then he can't make money. Why merge then? What's the incentive?

Pounder
05-09-2008, 04:14 PM
The CBA's trump card?!? The franchise fees. If the CEO of CBA Properties (approximately the same position he held with the ABA) can't sell new franchises, then he can't make money. Why merge then? What's the incentive?

That presumes they're good at selling franchise(s). In this economy, eh?

bectond
05-10-2008, 10:18 AM
That presumes they're good at selling franchise(s). In this economy, eh?

Remember, the space cadet sold that chick from Hammond a team, he is not particular about the company he keeps at these leaque meetings.

Now back to the leaques that is the PBL.

You guys are forgeting about a few of the founding PBL members - Minnesota and the Chicago (Mexican Team :rolleyes:). They folded before the season started. When you combine those blunders with the fact that Dallas and Jacksonville also folded and the Throwbacks were added at the last minute Ken and Skippy have an extremely strong case.

Which is....
That these guys (the two egomanic owners) really don't have a plan, they are winging it. Hopefully, the addition of Vermont will class up the joint a bit.

To be fair, I love the 20+ game schedule and if the drop the midwestern teams (all of which draw flies), i'll love the league layout (minus Wilmington).
If they resist the newmanist urge to over expanding and keep it regional these guys will have a solid base. Then all they will need is a mission.

bdaly
05-10-2008, 11:54 AM
It seems to exist for the Rochester and Maryland owner to win championships and make money. Doesn't appear to have the interest of the other owners at heart.
Gotta shoot this one down. Rochester has never been profitable, so it certainly doesn't exist for that reason. Rochester draws well, but they also play in an expensive venue with limited revenue streams. So they have to continue to build their already well above average base. And, well, I have no idea on Maryland's finances, but they aren't all that successful on the court, so it doesn't exist for them to win championships.

This first year was a good year for the PBL. Anyone that thought there wouldn't be bumps in the road was being extremely naive. Minor league basketball has a terrible track record, so getting investors in a short period of time is difficult. But, the bottom line is the league did what it had to do to pull everyone through. And, as I said all along, they can build the foundation from that as they're now a proven entity.

Looking forward, you've got a rock-solid eastern "division" now. You've got Vermont, Rochester, Buffalo, Reading, Toronto, Manchester, Wilmington and Maryland. That's a model that can really work thanks to reduced travel and a solid cluster of teams. It's pretty exciting. The midwest is less solid, but those teams seem to be committed, so we'll see. Dallas, Arkansas and Jacksonville are the odd teams out IMO given their location and issues, and letting them die might be for the best.

panchess
05-10-2008, 12:00 PM
.. from the other teams in the cluster, and it may end up that the Dallas team goes with the CBA with the cluster of teams in that part of the country. They won't be back in the ABA either.

The ABA appears to be toast, though I am sure Joe will try to gin it up one more time.

psbf
05-10-2008, 12:13 PM
the CBA teams do switch, you also have Augusta. Add them to the Wilmngton, Jacksonville and add RGV to Dallas, and you have some good rivalries, plus Lawton-Ft. Sill(imo).