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a1sports
04-17-2008, 11:11 PM
Yes siree Joe, Doyle was so so bad you had to fire him.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3624960

Why would you need a couple smart business guys with $$$$ when you have owners like Houston and Corning and Jersey and Hawaii, etc . etc.

shameful what you have done to basketball

TheStandard
04-17-2008, 11:30 PM
lets just hope its not being built on a Hill

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-18-2008, 10:13 AM
Yes siree Joe, Doyle was so so bad you had to fire him.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3624960

Why would you need a couple smart business guys with $$$$ when you have owners like Houston and Corning and Jersey and Hawaii, etc . etc.

shameful what you have done to basketball

Geez! Maybe it's just me, but I've never been impressed with Tom Doyle since he came on the minor league basketball scene. I'm still not impressed. Thoughts of Michael Tuckman (with deeper pockets) keep running through my mind.

DazedAndAmused
04-18-2008, 10:25 AM
what aren't you impressed with?

a first year league playing all of their games?
a proven "bail out" plan for troubling clubs that keeps games on?
a league that paid all travel?

who else did that? cba? ibl? aba (ha)? having said that, I give them a C- in qualifying their team owners, a C- for stats (because only ~75% of the game/player stats are there, and a C-for marketing (encompasses team and league level marketing.....discussing details here is another long thread.) These are easier things to correct than the core problems that exist elsewhere.

No one should confuse Doyle as the great savior, but he's your safest minor league best bet for possible success.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-18-2008, 11:19 AM
what aren't you impressed with?

a first year league playing all of their games?
a proven "bail out" plan for troubling clubs that keeps games on?
a league that paid all travel?

who else did that? cba? ibl? aba (ha)? having said that, I give them a C- in qualifying their team owners, a C- for stats (because only ~75% of the game/player stats are there, and a C-for marketing (encompasses team and league level marketing.....discussing details here is another long thread.) These are easier things to correct than the core problems that exist elsewhere.

No one should confuse Doyle as the great savior, but he's your safest minor league best bet for possible success.

Well, I'm certainly NOT impressed with the PBL. It seems like a Na, na, na, na, naaaaa approach to minor league basketball and to doing business. Not the best business model, IMO.

I don't understand Tom Doyle's focus, that's all. I think he needs to put his ego in check and become more of a businessperson.

LightningMan
04-18-2008, 11:35 AM
Well, I'm certainly not impressed with the PBL. It seems like a Na, na, na, na, naaaaa approach to minor league basketball and to doing business. Not the best business model, IMO.
What, pray tell, is a "Na, na, na, na, naaaaa approach"?

not so fast
04-18-2008, 11:43 AM
I wouldn't worry about what ken says, he is working for the ibl office or jewel must have given him box seats for life. Anyone that would criticize all the other leagues and defend that rec league called the ibl has lost his credibility.

Doyle is doing a great job, and the ibl on the other hand has a playoff season that consist of: If you can pay and go, then you are in. If not, even if you are a good team, stay home. So if you are a last place team, you can go if you have money! What a wonderful concept.

D-Sell
04-18-2008, 01:49 PM
I have posted positive threads wishing all leagues good luck and trying to see the positives for all the leagues. Yes. I am sure there are things that are unethical going on but they will weed themselves out in time, but the constant going back and forth about each other leagues is starting to get old and sound like some old hens going at each other. Damn fellows, I am sure there are some very raw feelings out there that I do not have and would not want the full story for, but this is not in the best interest of minor league basketball, is it? Here's a thought, what about handling our on leagues and seeing if the varsity league will ever come back and help again (FINANCIALLY). I am not sure that the D-League goes at each other like this, even the disatisfied owners. What they do see is us going back and forth at each other whenever we can which shows how professional we are. What we all want is to make some money doing something some of us love and some of us see a gain in. That is fine whichever side you are on but let the egos rest and use them for the common good. I have read your post and you all have some DAMN good ideas it sure would be nice to see them all put together in a common pot and developed. THAT WOULD BE ONE HELL OF AN EXCITING LEAGUE FOR EVERYONE. Especially the fans who are paying for entertainment. I am sure someone will find something negative about this, but remember this it is about seeing the common good for me.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-18-2008, 02:11 PM
What, pray tell, is a "Na, na, na, na, naaaaa approach"?

The official Na, na, na, na, naaaaa approach is when we were kids and said Na, na, na, na, naaaaa to the other kids when they wronged us, then we came upon something we thought those other kids desired. Same concept, but only the kids are bigger.

not so fast,
Nope on both counts. I pay for my own box seats (although TWO comp game worn Steelheads jerseys would be nice).

DazedAndAmused
04-18-2008, 02:18 PM
I won't go as far as "great job," but I would say Doyle has done the best job that could be done for a first year league and a job that has not been matched by the other leagues this year. Sorry Ken. Not even by your summer league (which is a good summer league.)

not so fast
04-18-2008, 02:48 PM
d sellout, I am not sure what your point is, but for a guy who has changed your assistant job every other month, you are in no position to say anything. I mean you went from yakima, minot, dallas, and rochester so fast, i could almost confuse you with larry brown.

Aren't you ready for head coaching job yet?

And healthy discussion is good for these leagues. People do read them, I mean look at you, you read them.

The problem comes from people saying dumb things, who really have no idea what it takes to run a league or a team. And no idea what a good player is. But thats free speech at work, so leave us alone and let us have are say.

Removed by moderator

one way
04-18-2008, 03:18 PM
D-Sell, I really have to question your credibility when it comes to teams and leagues. From what I understand, you had the owners ear and were very hands on in running the Utah Eagles organization. We all know how that played out. Then you left the Head Coach Fields holding the bag as you jumped to yet another job mid stream. I see a pattern here

LightningMan
04-18-2008, 04:11 PM
So Ken, is your problem with Doyle that he recruited other ABA teams to join the new league or that he thinks he can do it better than Joe, because from your description of what you mean, I could take it either way.

D-Sell
04-18-2008, 04:16 PM
Like I said someone would find the negative in what I said. So with that said you will never have to hear my positive post again baby finished. To all minor league teams continued success. To: "not so fast" and "one way" you can always catch me face-to-face @ one stop or another.

Signed Larry Brown and yes I do have a brown nose had it all my life and will continue to have it., I just will not stick it where you have.

Come see me baby.

formerlyknownasfells
04-18-2008, 04:20 PM
Hold off on the personal attacks there guys.

Coach Sellers is one of the nicest guys on the face of the planet. Not only is he a class man but he knows the game, is a strong scout and is fantastic with his players.

I wonder if you guys would say the same things to his face.

DazedAndAmused
04-18-2008, 04:29 PM
is your problem with Doyle that he recruited other ABA teams to join the new league

..to be fair to doyle on this one, it is not a stretch to see how the teams that showed up for games and paid their players sought each other out. in the case of the pbl, those teams got together and formed a new league, with doyle as the lead guy.

in the case of the NE ABA, they got together and took over their own affairs, although did it under the "ABA" umbrella, probably because there was no time to do anything else. who knows about next year.

this whole notion of "recruiting teams" is quite frankly a farce when you consider that these teams are in fact out shopping for options because the current league isn't operating effectively as a real league.

not so fast
04-18-2008, 04:35 PM
Wow all these years of posting, thats my first time I said something that was removed, and It was the most truthful thing I ever said.


Well I like the CBA, I like the PBL, I hope they can work it out. if not thats basketball. The aba, well.... enuf said. The ibl needs to want to grow and become better. The d-league only survives because of the NBA, certainly nothing they are doing.

d-sellout, good luck in your next job,,,which should be in about 3 months.

DazedAndAmused
04-18-2008, 04:39 PM
well, i think there is some truth to the fact the "bickering" b/w the leagues has hurt minor league basketball to degree. there is enough blame to go around, and alot of incest. it's a legitimate point to bring up on the board.

having said that, the varsity league likes the turmoil in the independent minor leagues. (don't kid yourself if you think otherwise.) let's be honest. they don't even want the dleague and have done relatively little to truly support it.

not so fast
04-18-2008, 05:09 PM
people disagree, that life. last i checked the congress has disagreements. i guess d-sellout wants us all to come together and sing kumbaya?

the message boards did not start the differences between the leagues. if this message board went away today, does anyone think the leagues would all come together like the song "We are the World" please....

Most of us on these boards, have no say on what really goes on. so we vent here. but most of us have a passion for minorleague basketball, thats why we come on here (or like in my case, you have no life).

Man, now what happened to the Bulls and the Bucks? neither team in the playoffs, both coaches fired yesterday (will dsellout be an assistant there now ?). i guess i can go watch an ibl game, Gary and windy city. Ken can i have one the box seats you were given?

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-18-2008, 05:44 PM
So Ken, is your problem with Doyle that he recruited other ABA teams to join the new league or that he thinks he can do it better than Joe, because from your description of what you mean, I could take it either way.

My impression of Mr. Doyle comes from my perception of him thinking that he can do a better job than Joe Newman. The new ABA has been a scam since after their first season. Therefore Doyle was scammed, but instead of accepting that fact and moving on, he's made some expensive decisions that don't seem to advance the case of minor league hoops as a viable option. Higher pay for players on a shorter schedule?!? What's that all about? Forget Joe Newman and the ABA and give the owners a better chance at survival.

...and btw, how is his lawsuit against Joe Newman going?

DazedAndAmused
04-18-2008, 07:45 PM
Ken, talking about "impressions from perceptions" is kinda like saying you know how something tastes 'cause you read about how it smells. It tells me you aren't really looking at the facts. Just look at a few simple ones:

-he played a complete season in his first year - the other winter independent leagues have had a hard time doing that (the ibl has missed some games too)
-his league paid for all travel in effort to jumpstart things
-he had a plan (that included bonds) to keep any problem children playing (who else is doing that?)
-a shorter season with games primarily on weekend is in fact an idea designed to improve the financial viability of minor league ball

These all are improvements to the recent state of the minor league game that give owners a better chance. Logic supports that.

LightningMan
04-18-2008, 07:52 PM
My impression of Mr. Doyle comes from my perception of him thinking that he can do a better job than Joe Newman. The new ABA has been a scam since after their first season. Therefore Doyle was scammed, but instead of accepting that fact and moving on, he's made some expensive decisions that don't seem to advance the case of minor league hoops as a viable option.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see how the motivation of thinking that you can do something better than someone else is doing makes your business model suspect. There is a chain of restaurants you may have heard of that proliferate around the globe because Ray Kroc thought that the McDonald brothers had a good thing that he could do much better.

I also don't understand why you say that Doyle should have just considered himself rooked and gone into that good night. Should the owners of Wilmington, Quad Cities, Rockford, the Chicago Throwbacks, and Reading (the ABA ownership groups that weren't part of creating the PBL) have just folded their tents up too?

Higher pay for players on a shorter schedule?!? What's that all about?
A time tested way to hire employees away from other potential employers: better pay and nicer working conditions.

Forget Joe Newman and the ABA and give the owners a better chance at survival.
You seem to perceive of the existence of the PBL as a personal vendetta between Doyle and Newman. While Joe may see it that way, I think Tom is trying to create that which he thought he was buying into, not attack Joe personally.

...and btw, how is his lawsuit against Joe Newman going?
Don't know a thing about it, but frankly Joe being sued by anyone shouldn't be surprising.

preeths
04-18-2008, 08:41 PM
My impression of Mr. Doyle comes from my perception of him thinking that he can do a better job than Joe Newman. The new ABA has been a scam since after their first season. Therefore Doyle was scammed, but instead of accepting that fact and moving on, he's made some expensive decisions that don't seem to advance the case of minor league hoops as a viable option. Higher pay for players on a shorter schedule?!? What's that all about? Forget Joe Newman and the ABA and give the owners a better chance at survival.

...and btw, how is his lawsuit against Joe Newman going?

I think to nearly all observers, not only did Mr. Doyle think he could do a better job than the ABA, he did it. Others have already pointed out the relative stability of the PBL, not only compared to the ABA, but compared to the CBA, too. One could quibble with some of the details such as how much he paid the players or the shorter schedule, but none of those things make a bad league by any stretch of the imagination. The higher player pay undoubtedly helped the talent in the league, and many have long argued eliminating as many weekday games as possible, which are nearly always weak draws. Judging by the team attrition levels in the ABA and PBL, the PBL has given its owners a much better chance at survival.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-27-2008, 09:46 PM
I also don't understand why you say that Doyle should have just considered himself rooked and gone into that good night. Should the owners of Wilmington, Quad Cities, Rockford, the Chicago Throwbacks, and Reading (the ABA ownership groups that weren't part of creating the PBL) have just folded their tents up too?


I never said Doyle should have just folded-up his tent. I said he should leave his ego out of his business decisions as much as possible. However, now that you mention Quad Cities, Rockford, and the Throwbacks--folding-up their tents wouldn't be such a bad idea. Those teams are nothing more than exercises in losing money. BTW, didn't the people and businesses of Rockford speak loudly enough with the CBA Rockford Lightning? They will no longer support winter minor league basketball. It's an AHL IceHogs town now.


A time tested way to hire employees away from other potential employers: better pay and nicer working conditions.

Time tested since when? Since we've been in a service economy? I'm all for nicer working conditions, but why pay players more when you don't have to and you're not drawing flies on average? There is too much ego involved in my opinion and not enough common sense. I don't expect to see these teams around for very long.

You seem to perceive of the existence of the PBL as a personal vendetta between Doyle and Newman.

The PBL as it exists now?!? Yes.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-27-2008, 10:01 PM
Ken, talking about "impressions from perceptions" is kinda like saying you know how something tastes 'cause you read about how it smells. It tells me you aren't really looking at the facts. Just look at a few simple ones:

-he played a complete season in his first year - the other winter independent leagues have had a hard time doing that (the ibl has missed some games too)
-his league paid for all travel in effort to jumpstart things
-he had a plan (that included bonds) to keep any problem children playing (who else is doing that?)
-a shorter season with games primarily on weekend is in fact an idea designed to improve the financial viability of minor league ball

These all are improvements to the recent state of the minor league game that give owners a better chance. Logic supports that.

I like the idea of games primarily on weekends also. I never said the PBL was devoid of good ideas. I'm saying that they're lacking in the good ideas department. BTW, the league pays for all travel, right? Who pays the league? I've always wondered about that.

DazedAndAmused
04-28-2008, 09:10 AM
I believe that the league has national sponsors that effectively covered the travel costs this year. But, Ken, you should contact Doyle directly so that you won't have to wonder or speculate any longer. My guess is he would answer your question.

LightningMan
04-28-2008, 09:30 AM
Time tested since when? Since we've been in a service economy? I'm all for nicer working conditions, but why pay players more when you don't have to...
You do have to. The PBL is in competition for the same players at that time of year as the ABA and the CBA.

There is too much ego involved, in my opinion...
You keep saying it but you never seem to illustrate it. Higher pay isn't ego. Starting the league isn't ego (or at least not hubris.) What is the PBL doing that can only be attributed to ego (and not, as in your other examples, possible other, legitimate causes)?

The PBL as it exists now [is a vendetta by Doyle against Newman]?!? Yes.
Do you, like, know these people personally or something? I see nothing in Doyle's actions or statements that indicate that this is personal between Doyle and Newman, at least on Doyle's part. What are you hearing / reading / seeing that we're missing?

DazedAndAmused
04-28-2008, 10:03 AM
I have researched this previously, and I have never seen any negative public statements from the PBL (or CBA) about the ABA. From what I can tell, Newman is the only one who (very unprofessionally for a supposed "CEO") makes such public statements.

This "vendetta" is manufactured in Newman's mind (even though he may genuinely believe it himself) to deflect attention away from the poor performance of his league. Bottom line, teams won't leave if they have a stable place to play.

Clearly, posters here have some hard feelings about the league (some of them now have roots in other leagues like the IBL too), but that shouldn't be confused with league positions, public statements, or opinions.

Ken, you're a summer league guy. Why do you care?

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-28-2008, 10:45 AM
Why do I care?!? Just maintaining my edge. I enjoy studying and trying to understand human nature. I understood that Dallas would be a bust while others thought the franchise would be successful...something to do with the owner once marketing gym shoes. :roll:

These skills may come in handy someday. Maybe not. :rolleyes:

DazedAndAmused
04-28-2008, 11:19 AM
Trying to understand human nature from what you read on a web forum won't get you too far unfortunately. You simply become part of the story with your own dog in the fight.

No question that Dallas and Jax (and perhaps a couple of others in other the PBL and other leagues) ranged between underperformers to "total bust." But, because of what minor league ball is, league response to those inevitable problems is what counts these days.

To really objectively rate the minor leagues, we need to look at the data - average attendance, average player salary, % turnover in teams (which should take into account financial performance), # D1 players, etc. I gathered some of this data from last year and here is where it panned out:

1. dleague
2. cba
3. pbl (close in score to cba)
4. ibl
5. several other leagues including the aba that didn't achieve the minimum score.

I would like to see others plug in their data to a similar metric. Funny thing, none of the "league bots" want to engage in the objective discussion. (Most don't like where they fall.) They only want to rah rah about their league OR criticize others.

No, these skills won't come in handy. Sorry.

runninref
04-29-2008, 07:08 AM
DandA ... I agree with your matrix, however I feel another variable should be added ... strength in officiating (the obvious choice for me). Granted, the level of play in the two leagues are about the same. The stronger teams in both leagues would be competitive with each other. A big difference is officiating. The CBA uses 2 officials, everyone else uses 3. There are fewer fouls called in the CBA (not as a result of only 2 officials) than in the PBL No, more isn't always better, however in this case, the officials from the PBL are simply better quality than the CBA. With that said, PBL and CBA strength of league is very close as you stated.:mrgreen:

DazedAndAmused
04-29-2008, 10:29 AM
DandA ... I agree with your matrix, however I feel another variable should be added ... strength in officiating (the obvious choice for me). Granted, the level of play in the two leagues are about the same. The stronger teams in both leagues would be competitive with each other. A big difference is officiating. The CBA uses 2 officials, everyone else uses 3. There are fewer fouls called in the CBA (not as a result of only 2 officials) than in the PBL No, more isn't always better, however in this case, the officials from the PBL are simply better quality than the CBA. With that said, PBL and CBA strength of league is very close as you stated.:mrgreen:

officiating should be included, but I didn't b/c it is hard to measure. but it certainly could fall in the subjective category and having 1 less official on the court would push a score down i believe by default. also important would be ref training programs and experience at the D1 or minor league level.

sadly, it is in the more detailed scorecard i have put out here previously, but % of games played needs to be a critical part of this as well.

preeths
04-29-2008, 11:11 AM
IMO, percentage of games played should be the biggest component of any league's score. Providing the product has to be the overall goal of any league.