CFL expansion

[BlackJackRob22]

Now I know this topic has been touched many times, I myself am in the group that thinks a U.S. expansion would be foolish. A Canadian expansion would be great though. My one problem is I know the size of the cities, but I don't know if they would show up to CFL games or if they have the stadium to play the game.

Halifax
Quebec
London
Windsor
Victoria
Saskatoon
St. John's

Halifax, Quebec, and Windsor would be the easiest and make for a good three division league with an Atlantic, Central, and Pacific divisions. It is good to think about them but would the be profitable.

[Shootmaster_44]

This is an often debated thread on here but I will take a stab at this one.

Halifax - This is one of the rumored sites for the next expansion team. However, the largest stadium in Halifax is Husky Stadium. Its currently home to St. Mary's University and seats only 9,000. I remember seeing Atlantic Bowl games from there and it would appear that at the time the stadium was of good quality. If they expand the capacity, I think it would work.

Quebec - This is the other rumored expansion site. There is no stadium of any quality located in Quebec City. However, in nearby Ste-Foy, there is Stade du PEPS, home of the Universite du Laval Rouge et Or. It is nearly CFL quality as it seats 17,000. I am unsure of the field quality, but I doubt it is terrible enough that the CFL wouldn't play there.

London - The Argos have played a few exhibition games in London at TD Waterhouse Stadium. From what I recall, the stadium looked to be CFL quality. The only drawback to it, is that it only seats 9,000. However, it appeared to be easily expandable. Seems to me this was one the places the Argos were looking at moving to when they had their financial trouble a few years back.

Windsor - Windsor is an interesting case, as they have a plethora of stadiums to look at in Detroit. The first two that pop into mind are Tigers Stadium and the Silverdome. However, if the CFL were intent on placing a team in Windsor proper, there is no viable stadium there. The University of Windsor Lancers play at South Campus Field which holds 2,500 people. I have never seen a game from there but if it is like most other Canadian university sites, it probably isn't that easily expandable. Besides I'm not sure Windsor is a great site, as they have by my estimation too many football choices as it is (1 NFL - Lions, 2 Div. 1 NCAA - Michigan and Michigan State, several smaller colleges and 1 CIS - Windsor).

Victoria - They do not have a major CIS football program and therefore do not have a decent stadium. The Victoria Rebels of the CJFL play in Royal Athletic Park, which seats 3,500 people. However, if the stadium is anything like the ones the PFC teams play in (excluding the Regina Prairie Thunder) this is not even worth upgrading. Even if it were structurally sound unlike the PFC parks, its capacity suggests that it could not be easily expanded.

Saskatoon - Does not have a stadium even near CFL quality or capacity. If the improvements are made to Griffith Stadium on the U of S campus, it would be a step in the right direction. Plans are for Vanier Cup '06 that the stadium would have lights, new fieldturf and a 10,000 seat capacity. However, I think that a CFL team is a long shot. The city itself would support a team I believe though. Many people are Riders fans but still think of them as Regina's team. If Saskatoon were to have a team, it would do very well. But the lack of a stadium is too much to overcome at the moment.

St. John's - There is no major football played in St. John's, as CJFL football does not exist East of Ontario and Memorial University does not play football. The only football I could find in St. John's is a touch football league sponsered by Coors Light. Without even high school football on the Rock, I doubt the CFL would even look at St. John's for a possible team until other more viable markets are explored. The only remotely football thing played in St. John's is The Rock RFC of the Rugby Canada Super League. I could not find out anything about their park though.

Before Victoria, St. John's and Saskatoon have a team I would propose Kelowna.

Kelowna - From what I've seen on TV and read about in the papers, fans in Okanagan love football. The Okanagan Sun of the CJFL are perennial champions and are well supported. They play in the Apple Bowl which holds 4,500 people. This is the lone drawback, the stadium is well suited for Junior Football, but is not CFL quality. It appears it could be improved and renovated, but as I stated with Victoria, its not cost effective. If Kelowna were to build a new stadium, I believe the CFL would be stupid to avoid this market for very long.

Once these 8 markets had teams, hypothetically, is there any other places that should have teams? Otherwise, would this mean the CFL has tapped out of Canadian cities that deserve teams and would have to (dare I say it) look South to the US for expansion? Granted, this would probably be 100 years from now, that all these cities would have teams and the CFL would become a 17 team entity.

[BlackJackRob22]

The CFL needs American television revenue, but it does not need American cities. The CFL can expand it's base with a great ad campaign and great cable television deal. Say FoxSports or ESPN2 and they use the CFL to it's full degree. In Canada I feel funny not even knowing where Kelona is, how big is it? Is it near Vancouver?
St. John's, Victoria, Saskatoon, are on the back burner. I remember talk of a Windsor team in years previous. My best bet would be a London team that would play games in Windsor to peak interest, that would also expand the fan base of London. Give them a name like the Windsor/London Rapids. Halifax and Quebec will become teams, in either order they will be next I think both teams would be very succesfull due to having there own base of fans. A Montreal vs. Quebec fued would be great.
Now then I have two more questions and one more statment, what about Saguegay it has a large population and is in it's own area? I know nothing about the city though only it's population peaks out to me. What about the old CFL commisioner that placed teams in the US. I know he wanted to bring the CFL to over twenty teams and most from Canada. So what cities did he have in mind? My last statment as to why the CFL needs to stay in Canada is I go to Thunder Bay often, and I see many more Minnesota Viking fans then know who the CFL is. In a city like Toronto you also have a huge population base that is not exactly interested in the product. If that could happen and the CFL could become the cool thing then you could make quadruple what they are making now in the bigger cities in low estimates. In the smaller cities if the CFL became pop culture the tv ratings maybe low but nothing wrong with continued sell outs.

[Pounder]

In terms of market size and available facilities, Quebec is the OBVIOUS choice. London, Halifax, and Victoria (in about that order) may be the next choices, though they are all a substantial population drop from the larger markets.

Kelowna is in British Columbia, several hours from Vancouver. The metro area, however, is almost 160,000. Regina has to bill itself as a provincial team to overcome being in a market of 201,000. Kamloops isn't that far away from Kelowna, but I'm not sure that sells a lot more tickets. Are we talking about better than average disposable income there?

[Shootmaster_44]

In Canada I feel funny not even knowing where Kelona is, how big is it? Is it near Vancouver?

Kelowna is in the Okanagan Valley near Lake Okanagan and the Shushwaps. Its 395 km East of Vancouver, relatively closer to Calgary I believe than Vancouver. Its a major vacation destination for people from out West. Kelowna proper has a population of about 95,000 but the Greater Okanagan District has 195,000. I think Kelowna would fall into the same category as Saskatoon. Some people may drive to Vancouver to see games, but the Lions are still Vancouver's team. If Kelowna had a team that half of the province would support it instead of the Lions.

[Shootmaster_44]

From what I know apparently Kamloops is becoming the retirement destination for many former Vancouver residents. As I mentioned before, there is the whole resort there as well. It appears the area is equivalent to the Simcoe region near Toronto. What I mean is many of the rich business people own elaborate cottages around the lake. So it would reason to believe that there is a higher disposable income for the CFL season around Kelowna.

[ed1]

No one mentioned Moncton. It is in the middle of all the major centres in the Maritimes.
MOncton- fredericton 128 miles
Moncton- Saint John 92 miles
MOncton- Halifax 149 miles.

Population of the 4 centres: CMA's

Moncton- 117727
Fredericton- 81346
Saint John- 122678
Halifax- 359183

The total population within 150 miles of Moncton is about 670000.
So why not put the team in that location.
The only Maritime city left out would be St. John Newfoundland, it is on the Island and it would not be an easy trip to see a game from there.

[BlackJackRob22]

The reason I never brought up Moncton, is because it would easily be a support town to Halifax. The same with Fredrickston, those are the fans your looking for out of a Halifax team, you would even want to sell tickets with bus fair. The same thing for St. John's I suppose I live a good deal away from the twin cities, but always go to a Viking game or Twin game. So Halifax could own that system and run the maritimes until many years later when another is capable to expand.
Victoria I have been told cannot even support a soccer team, which is sad because the population is just right.
Kelona, to close to Vancouver that is the group you want to come to a Lions game.
Now the teams around Toronto are differnt in the idea that the city is already so huge it does not need any outside support.

In ten years the CFL should be:

Atlantic:
Montreal
Halifax
Quebec
Ottowa

Central:
Toronto
Hamilton
Winnipeg
London/Windsor

Pacific:
Vancouver
Saskatchewan
Edmonton
Calgary

[micropolis]

Just joined this site. It's nice to see some sports talk by people who appear to have a brain, don't type in all caps, and don't end every sentence with seven exclamation points.
The news that Halifax is getting a CFL exhibition game is good news. The idea that a Maritime franchise is in the offing for the East Coast is to be taken with a grain of salt. The league tried it here in 84, and it fell through when the federal government reneged on money to help build a stadium.
The prospects of putting financing together are brighter since Halifax is much less of a backwater burg than it used to be, but government funding is still essential.
There are two problems with this: 1) In Nova Scotia politics, where literacy is not a prerequisite to getting elected, the governing party has most of its strength outside metro Halifax. Spending money on a mega-project for the capital is unpopular and besides, doing nothing is always the best option politically.
2) Metro Toronto has more federal seats than all of Atlantic Canada put together. Minority government or not, Ottawa doesn't give two ****s about the east coast cannot be relied upon to deliver so much as money gleaned from taking back empty beer cans.
Nonetheless, between private sector funding, naming rights (which I hate but are a necessary evil in today's pro sports millieu), and local boosterism, someone might just be able to piece together $70 million for a stadium. Halifax despearately needs on outdoor facility anyway.
I have heard one local booster broach the possibility of retro-fitting Huskies Stadium for CFL use. You would only say that if you have never seen the place and have a lengthy history of smoking crack. Having spent many of my university days playing frisbee between classes on Huskies Stadium's turf, I can testify that there is no way you can install the 21,000 seats needed to bring the facility up to CFL standards without demolishing an indoor athletic centre and a 30-storey apartment block.
The other option floated for a stadium site by at least one local newspaper columnist is the old Shannon Park military ghetto near the MacKay Bridge in Dartmouth. In theory this abandoned housing project is a good idea, except for one problem: people from Halifax don't go across the harbour to Dartmouth unless they absolutely have to. Having lived in both cities I can see the unfairness and absolute common sense of this (much of Dartmouth is a ****hole).
The 1984 CFL entry would have played in Burnside Industrial Park, next door to Dartmouth. Would not have worked either for reason given above. Case in point, the Candian Soccer League tried a franchise at Dartmouth's Beazly Field and it failed miserably attendance-wise because the stadium is way out in the burbs on the Dartmouth side. Good field, room for a retro-fit, but no one from Halifax would go.
The best place for a permanent, 30,000 seat stadium would be the old military stores between Robie and Windsor streets in north-end Halifax. Not sure what the status is as far as the Armed Forces go, but large parts of the site are abandoned, but I hear large parts of of the site are contaminated with PCBs, which would mean a costly cleanup. Still, as far as ensuring good attendance and as an urban renewal project, it's prime real estate, and the only lot big enough left on the Halifax penninsula.
As far as New Brunswick goes, if Haligonians won't drive to Dartmouth, why would anyone think they would drive to Moncton or Fredericton (note spelling)?
I like BlackJackRob's idea of three divisions with teams in London and Quebec City. Viz. QC, football is booming in French Canada and, the question of a venue aside, given the intensity of the old Nordiques vs. Canadiens rivalry in the NHL, would be a booming success.
Finally, I had no idea anyone in the US was still interested in the CFL. It's cool though.
For those who advocate a second American adventure for the CFL, no way. The CFL should focus on a stable return for it's existing teams first. Candian expansion second and US expansion possibly not at all. With no disrespect to out American friends here, most Americans will never support the Canadian brand of football. Not because it's Canadian, you understand, just because it's not American. This is not a dis, because every day I thank America for Johnny Cash and Fugazi.
Cheers.

[minnfan]

Problems with a couple cities are.........Quebec. Montreal owner Wettenhall is claiming he'd block a franchise in QC as that's his territory. Probably a streatch to claim it, but his fellow owners would likely listen. Windsor......the new owners of the Ottawa Renegades, the Glebermen, have a decade old franchise claim on the Detroit / Windsor area and are telling everybody that it's still a good claim despite their Ottawa team. Probably another stretch, but would fellow owners want to get tied up in that kind of a battle over a borderline possibility?

Comissioner Wright wants a tenth team badly, for scheduling purposes if nothing more. Scheduling sounds ok, but the real reason is to eliminate mid-weed games so the television people can purchase broadcast rights limited to weekends only, which is what they want.

That leaves Halifax as the one outstanding possibility as the only hurdle in the way is lack of a stadium. No Quebec or Windsor entanglements. If the CFL can continue to show improvement off the field, their revenue has increased greatly the last two years, they may interest a deep pocketed potential owner to investigate Halifax. That's the minimum necessary, nobody in Halifax is going to talk stadium without being certain ther're going to have a team to play in it.

Give it two, maybe three more years, and we just might see groundbreaking ceremonies in or near Halifax.

[Pounder]

Personal opinion... the Montreal owner needs to have faith regarding Quebec. Passing up a potential rivalry, IMO, isn't that smart, despite whatever regional TV advantages may ensue.

I do get to check out the Apple Bowl in a couple weeks... well, it'll be for soccer (why Vancouver Whitecaps have moved a Portland game to Kelowna is beyond me).

[minnfan]

Personal opinion... the Montreal owner needs to have faith regarding Quebec. Passing up a potential rivalry, IMO, isn't that smart, despite whatever regional TV advantages may ensue.

I do get to check out the Apple Bowl in a couple weeks... well, it'll be for soccer (why Vancouver Whitecaps have moved a Portland game to Kelowna is beyond me).


Agree 100%. Sometimes the CFL owners tend to fret over the few dollars they get more than over the far greater amount they'd get if they catered to the people who have it and would be willing to spend it if they made it possible. Meaning the Montreal owner could recover any loss by simply playing all Quebec City games in the Big O......the additional 30-40 thousand tickets sold would cover the losses by itself, not counting any additional tv money brought in by an end to mid week games.

The CFL is a league that is always pulled in two opposite directions, those who want to spend more to make more, and those who want to spend less to fit within what they currently make. It's a very difficult struggle, and I'm happy to see that at the moment the "spend more to make more" people seem to have the upper hand.

[TexanGambler]

In the year of 2050 Canadian Football League Season


EASTERN DIVISION
Halifax Exporters - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Hamilton Tigercats - Hamilton, Ontario
London Monarchs - London, Ontario
Moncton Buccaneers - Moncton, New Brunswick
Montreal Alouettes - Montreal, Quebec
Ontario Warriors - Winsdor, Ontario
Ottawa Renegades - Ottawa, Ontario
Quebec Nordiques - Quebec City, Quebec
Toronto Argonauts - Toronto, Ontario

WESTERN DIVISION
Alberta Buffaloes - Lethridge, Alberta
British Columbia Lions - Vancouver, British Columbia
Calgary Stampeders - Calgary, Alberta
Edmonton Eskimos - Edmonton, Alberta
Regina Roughriders - Regina, Saskatchewan
Saskatoon Chiefs - Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Vancouver Grizzlies - Vancouver, British Columbia
Whitehorse Stallions - Whitehorse, Yukon
Winnipeg Bombers - Winnipeg, Manitoba

[Pounder]

You must be betting on another Yukon Gold Rush to put a team in Whitehorse, the population of which IIRC is less than 20,000... or maybe less than 25,000.

BTW... guess I thought the Apple Bowl was bigger than it is. You're not going to put a major stadium on that site, even if there seems to be a space there to put it. Location is the issue. Also should be noted that people tend to think growth accelerates a lot faster than it actually does (there's only one Vegas). However, in the summertime, on Lake Okanagan... I need to make another trip up to Kelowna. Nice. Very nice! Of course, I wonder if the ladies I saw up there are local or not, maybe worth a hockey trip this fall.

Victoria before Lethbridge, BTW.

[minnfan]

In the year of 2050 Canadian Football League Season


EASTERN DIVISION
Halifax Exporters - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Hamilton Tigercats - Hamilton, Ontario
London Monarchs - London, Ontario
Moncton Buccaneers - Moncton, New Brunswick
Montreal Alouettes - Montreal, Quebec
Ontario Warriors - Winsdor, Ontario
Ottawa Renegades - Ottawa, Ontario
Quebec Nordiques - Quebec City, Quebec
Toronto Argonauts - Toronto, Ontario

WESTERN DIVISION
Alberta Buffaloes - Lethridge, Alberta
British Columbia Lions - Vancouver, British Columbia
Calgary Stampeders - Calgary, Alberta
Edmonton Eskimos - Edmonton, Alberta
Regina Roughriders - Regina, Saskatchewan
Saskatoon Chiefs - Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Vancouver Grizzlies - Vancouver, British Columbia
Whitehorse Stallions - Whitehorse, Yukon
Winnipeg Bombers - Winnipeg, Manitoba


Change the date to 2099 and maybe some of your locations would qualify, hardly all of'em. Why suggest two in Vancouver and stick with one in Toronto? I'd guess (considering the size of Toronto, and the rate of population increase, that a team in York (North York) would have a better chance than tyring to pull enough fans for Windsor, London and Hamilton out of the same somewhat small pool.

People always suggest teams in both Regina and Saskatoon, but since the Riders can't pull 25,000 per game now it's hard to believe two teams could.

[Shootmaster_44]

People always suggest teams in both Regina and Saskatoon, but since the Riders can't pull 25,000 per game now it's hard to believe two teams could.

However, I would hazard a guess that 85-90% of those 25,000 are from the Southern half of the province. I'm sure that a team in Saskatoon would draw well, as there are many people here like me who can't spend 2 and a half hours to drive to Regina every weekend. However, if Saskatoon had a team, I'd have season tickets. But the major stumbling block will always be the lack of a stadium in Saskatoon.

I mean 2 years ago the University of Saskatchewan was awarded the Vanier Cup for 2006 and just now are they finally getting the funding together to upgrade Griffith Stadium. The city on the other hand has spend 20 years deciding what to do about the development in the South Downtown and still haven't quite settled on it. So I doubt anyone in this city would get their act together to build a CFL sized stadium, especially before an expansion franchise has been awarded.

[minnfan]

People always suggest teams in both Regina and Saskatoon, but since the Riders can't pull 25,000 per game now it's hard to believe two teams could.

However, I would hazard a guess that 85-90% of those 25,000 are from the Southern half of the province. I'm sure that a team in Saskatoon would draw well, as there are many people here like me who can't spend 2 and a half hours to drive to Regina every weekend. However, if Saskatoon had a team, I'd have season tickets. But the major stumbling block will always be the lack of a stadium in Saskatoon.

I mean 2 years ago the University of Saskatchewan was awarded the Vanier Cup for 2006 and just now are they finally getting the funding together to upgrade Griffith Stadium. The city on the other hand has spend 20 years deciding what to do about the development in the South Downtown and still haven't quite settled on it. So I doubt anyone in this city would get their act together to build a CFL sized stadium, especially before an expansion franchise has been awarded.


I'd back your guess. But I would not agree that the total population base of Saskatchewan could support two teams considering they barely support one today. Additionally, the original post refered to 2049, and by that time Saskatchewans population will be lower than it is today, considering the degree of flight to elsewhere that's been going on and gathering steam over the last two decades.

It takes more than a small city to support a CFL team, it takes surrounding population centers as well and northern Saskatchewan doesn't have any.