PDA

View Full Version : 2009-10 NBA Expansion


HKF
04-12-2008, 04:19 AM
With the D-League season coming to a close in less than 24 hours (it's only 12:27 AM here in LA as of this post), I figured it would be a good idea to take a look at the next step in the D-League's evolution.

Some things we know already.

a) Erie and Reno will begin play in 2008-09, bringing the total D-League teams to 16, a little over halfway to the League's goal of 30.
b) Even without the official announcement, the Portland, Maine team will begin play in 2009-10 and will be affiliated with the Boston Celtics. The full announcement will not take place until the summer.
c) The next round of expansion that will take place in the D, will be in the Northeast, with 2010-11 and 2011-12, will be for the Southeast and to fill in the remaining pieces to achieve their said goals.

Some rumors that have been floating about for 09-10

(Note: I am not pontificating on the percentages these will happen, but I do expect all to happen at some point):

1. Harlem, NY - with Donnie Walsh's hiring, this seems like a foregone conclusion that this will happen. It's pretty apparent that Walsh was brought into clean up the Knicks image. The interesting thing here is that the Knicks may not own this team at least 100%. There may be some Harlem local owners who own it.
2. Toledo, OH - this team is being thought about the Mud Hens organization and would probably be the Pistons affiliate. With the cities being only an hour apart, it makes too much sense for it not to happen.
3. Frisco, TX - Rumors that Cuban will put a team there that will be owned by the Mavericks. Frisco is a growing yuppie town/family area that would probably thrive. Fort Worth is a bad city for minor league sports it appears.
4. Trenton, NJ - The new President of the Sixers, Ed Stefanski has mentioned the empty arena in Trenton being the perfect place for the Sixers minor league team and I am liable to agree. I originally believed the Sixers would try to keep the team a PA team by being in Reading or Scranton, but ultimately Trenton is only a 40 minute drive away and the Sixers would be able to easily keep tabs on their young players during the season by having them play so close to home.
5. Toronto Raptor Affiliate - This one is very much up in the air. The MLSE owns the Raptors and may not have an interest in running a minor league team. However, it's pretty apparent that Bryan Colangelo wants one near the Raptors and thinks it will help grow the sport in Canada (I agree with him). Now, there are talks of Hamilton and Southern Ontario, but I am not sure the Raptors will have the infrastructure in place to put this together. The reason i say this is because I haven't even read of a venue yet. Which brings me to the Halifax Rainmen.

Personally, I would love to see the Rainmen get in the D-League for the 09-10 season after spending a year in the PBL or CBA, simply because there aren't any teams close to them in the D as of right now. If an agreement can be worked out with the Raptors and the Rainmen, it might work out. Here's the problem. The closest team to the Rainmen would be the expansion Portland team and they are a cool nine hours away. Hamilton is also nine hours away, but they are also closer to other teams like the Erie team and the Fort Wayne team. Can a team that is eighteen hours away from it's affiliate city (Toronto), really work? I just think at the end of the day they are going to be denied, because they are out on an island, quite literally. It says here that Hamilton will be the pick.

Teams that are up in the air:

1. The Rim Rockers - Formerly of Arkansas, Larry Crain has been trying to find a place to play for some time. Now, there were talks that he had secured a location in Cedar Rapids, but there has been no news on this since. League President Dan Reed emphatically stated that there would only be two expansion teams this year, so if the RimRockers are playing in Cedar Rapids this will probably not happen until 2009-10 as well. It's pretty much too late for Crain to get his ducks in a row to have a successful season, so they if this does succeed it will have to take place next year.

2. Florida Flame - Not sure if this group is simply waiting for the round of expansion in the Southeast before resuming play. They are not going to return to the league until the NBA re-expands into the South. One thing is certain, they are going to need another team in Florida (for the Orlando Magic). Probably in Daytona Beach or Jacksonville (I would bet on Jacksonville).

3. Albany Patroons - Has been some rumors that along with the new Northeast Division, there has been some dealings between the D-League and this team about possibly moving from the CBA. When the four CBA teams defected, many expected the Patroons to go with them, but they were not willing to suspend operations while waiting for the East Coast expansion, a wise choice I might add. However, now that the East Coast expansion is real, it would be smart of the league to let the Patroons in even at the rate they gave to the CBA teams previously, because this is a franchise with a lot of history and the perfect affiliate for the soon to be Brooklyn bound Nets.

So as it stands for the 2008-09 season, I am going to take a stab at the affiliate system.

East
Erie *expansion* (Cleveland, Philadelphia)
Fort Wayne (Detroit, Indiana)
Iowa (Chicago, Boston)
Dakota (Milwaukee, Washington)
Sioux Falls (Minnesota, Toronto)

Southwest
Rio Grande Valley (Houston, New Orleans)
Tulsa *Bixby, OK* (Dallas, Memphis)
Austin (San Antonio)
Colorado (Denver, New Jersey)
Albuquerque (Phoenix, New York)

Pacific
Utah (Utah, Charlotte)
Idaho (Portland, Seattle)
Reno *expansion* (Sacramento, Atlanta)
Bakersfield (Golden State, Miami)
Los Angeles *Ontario, CA* (LA Lakers)
Anaheim (LA Clippers, Orlando)

With the new affiliate system, the NBA is getting closer to it's goal of 1 to 1 affiliation and no D-League franchise will have more than two NBA team affiliated which is a good thing because it keeps multiple players from 3 different teams being yo-yo'd around.

So what to expect for 09-10? Here are my predictions.

Portland, ME (guaranteed) - Celtics affiliate
Trenton, NJ - Sixers affiliate
Harlem, NY - Knicks affiliate
Hamilton, Ontario - Raptors affiliate
Toledo, OH - Pistons affiliate
Albany Patroons defect from CBA, join D-League - Nets affiliate

Cedar Rapids possibly enters the league and if not the NBA helps Larry find a Southeast location to help relocate the RimRockers to (meaning either the Bobcats in Wilmington, NC; the Wizards in Northern Virginia or Maryland; the Hawks in Columbus or Gwinnett, GA; or the Magic somewhere in Central FL)

Frisco, TX waits till the 2010-11 season to join the NBA. I doubt the NBA is going to want more than 6 new teams coming into the D-League. So the top six would be my picks bringing the D-League to 22 teams before the Fall of 2009.

Atlantic Division
Portland *expansion*
Hamilton *expansion*
Albany Patroons
Harlem *expansion*
Trenton *expansion*

Central Division
Fort Wayne Mad Ants
Erie [name TBA]
Toledo *expansion*
Iowa Energy
Sioux Falls SkyForce
Dakota Wizards

Southwest Division
Austin Toros
Rio Grande Valley Vipers
Tulsa 66ers
Colorado 14ers
Albuquerque Thunderbirds

West Division
Idaho Stampede
Utah Flash
Los Angeles Defenders
Anaheim Arsenal
Bakersfield Jam
Reno [name TBA]

What do you expect to happen for the 2009-10 season?

PaulD
04-12-2008, 08:26 AM
How sure are you that Portland will get a team and be the Celtics affiliate to boot?

Supposedly Manchester is interested in doing the same thing.

Great post by the way!

I sure would love it if Portland would get in the D-League.

rams80
04-12-2008, 01:53 PM
How sure are you that Portland will get a team and be the Celtics affiliate to boot?

Supposedly Manchester is interested in doing the same thing.

Great post by the way!

I sure would love it if Portland would get in the D-League.

As Manchester is an ABA organization, I doubt the D-League wants to let them in.

bdyer
04-12-2008, 02:00 PM
As Manchester is an ABA organization, I doubt the D-League wants to let them in.They have done it twice before that I can recall.

SignGuyDino
04-12-2008, 03:02 PM
Charlotte is more likely to have a team play in Charlotte (like the Lakers arrangement), or Asheville (where there were two D-League championships and a basketball-specific venue being opened at UNC-Asheville in 2010), or Gastonia (nearby Charlotte) than Wilmington.

HKF
04-12-2008, 03:23 PM
IIRC, I think the goal will be to get to 30 first with parent clubs most important. Portland is a guaranteed at this point. The people involved are top notch in every capacity and the NBA wants to tap the Celtics ties.

The problem with Manchester is this: If they don't get the Celtics affiliation (which appears unlikely), what do you do with them? Even if someone said let's put teams in Providence and Hartford, yes they would make sense from a rivalry perspective, but the D-League wants teams that make sense for the NBA clubs.

So I doubt you'd see Manchester with a Brooklyn Nets situation. From a logistics stand point it seems rather doubtful.

Sign, I agree that Charlotte may eventually go the route of the Lakers and I know you're a NC resident. I think Wilmington is a great town and only four hours away from Charlotte and Asheville is two hours away. So I guess it's whatever is convenient. However, what if the Sea Dawgs of the PBL were able to put together something.

I have not heard of the Bobcats buying into the D-League yet, even if they have sent players down there in the past. The only reason I ask if that is realistic, is because Bob Johnson is a notorious cheapskate (and when he does spend money, he doesn't seem to spend it on the right things).

DakotaWiz
04-12-2008, 06:54 PM
I think it's going to take awhile to get 30 teams, and that's alright.. I would rather the league not pick up teams just to have teams... Keep bringing in the best run teams until there are 30, no matter how long it takes..

rams80
04-12-2008, 10:07 PM
They have done it twice before that I can recall.

Outside of Vermont (which has arena issues), can you think of any other ABA organizations that are legitimately viable/professional enough now for the D-League? (Assuming the D-League even talks to ABA teams nowadays.)

DakotaWizardsFan
04-12-2008, 10:08 PM
Midwest
Cedar Rapids (Mil-affiliate)
Des Moines (Chi-affiliate)
Sioux Falls (Minn - affiliate)
Omaha (non-affiliate)

Northwest
Fargo (Mem-affiliate)
Bismarck (Was-affiliate)
Minot (Moves over from CBA as non-affiliate due to lack of teams located in the west)
Rapid City (non-affiliate)

They are not going to split the rivalry up like that. The Force and Wiz are going to stay in the same division no matter what I'm sure.

SignGuyDino
04-13-2008, 03:59 PM
IIRC, I think the goal will be to get to 30 first with parent clubs most important. Portland is a guaranteed at this point. The people involved are top notch in every capacity and the NBA wants to tap the Celtics ties.

The problem with Manchester is this: If they don't get the Celtics affiliation (which appears unlikely), what do you do with them? Even if someone said let's put teams in Providence and Hartford, yes they would make sense from a rivalry perspective, but the D-League wants teams that make sense for the NBA clubs.

So I doubt you'd see Manchester with a Brooklyn Nets situation. From a logistics stand point it seems rather doubtful.

Sign, I agree that Charlotte may eventually go the route of the Lakers and I know you're a NC resident. I think Wilmington is a great town and only four hours away from Charlotte and Asheville is two hours away. So I guess it's whatever is convenient. However, what if the Sea Dawgs of the PBL were able to put together something.

I have not heard of the Bobcats buying into the D-League yet, even if they have sent players down there in the past. The only reason I ask if that is realistic, is because Bob Johnson is a notorious cheapskate (and when he does spend money, he doesn't seem to spend it on the right things).

Johnson does have that reputation for being a cheapskate, and he didn't invest well in his local TV venture (although his first one did very well).

This adds to the argument for having Charlotte as number 1 on the list. He's GOING to be forced by peer pressure to get a D-League team, as will every NBA team. Wilmington's best shot at getting in is a formal relationship with the PBL, or even the PBL being absorbed to the D-League (NOT implausible at all). The Jet really has done little as Commissioner, maybe this is why he was brought in?

Asheville is another logical argument if the Charlotte D-League team as the newer venue is slated to seat only 3,500-4,000, meaning rental can't be that bad and let's get real: The D-league isn't about attendance. I still don't see the argument for having teams in venues as big as the D-League has them except ego.

WHEN Harlem gets their team it will be the most popular D-League team right away, especially for the players. Just too much history in Harlem.

I just fear that, given how the D-fenders did so well helping the Lakers by playing all their home games at Staples, the D-league will end up like the MLS reserve league which basically plays all their games at their parent club's venue.

panchess
04-13-2008, 06:16 PM
..a lot of people at Patroons' games last season made comments like "they don't get the players anymore." They seem to know the D-League, and they know players.

Perfectably reasonable to keep playing and await an opportunity. That would explain in part the Patroons seeming lack of interest in the CBA Championship and their website, though lack of cash could too.

bdyer
04-13-2008, 06:51 PM
Johnson does have that reputation for being a cheapskate, and he didn't invest well in his local TV venture (although his first one did very well).

This adds to the argument for having Charlotte as number 1 on the list. He's GOING to be forced by peer pressure to get a D-League team, as will every NBA team. Wilmington's best shot at getting in is a formal relationship with the PBL, or even the PBL being absorbed to the D-League (NOT implausible at all). The Jet really has done little as Commissioner, maybe this is why he was brought in?I think if Jordan became a booster, it could help re-establish the D-League almost anywhere in NC.

Asheville is another logical argument if the Charlotte D-League team as the newer venue is slated to seat only 3,500-4,000, meaning rental can't be that bad and let's get real: The D-league isn't about attendance. I still don't see the argument for having teams in venues as big as the D-League has them except ego.I agree with that for the most part. The NBA is paying the player salaries, and I think they should pay more to keep players in the states. The rest of the costs can get pretty ridiculous in huge venues, and there is often the complicating factor of losing prime dates to established hockey or football teams. The Vipers got off to a good start, but we'll have to see if they have staying power as the third tenant in the Dodge Arena. The Toros aren't even considering playing the same role in a new suburban arena.

WHEN Harlem gets their team it will be the most popular D-League team right away, especially for the players. Just too much history in Harlem.Really looking forward to this one. It could be a watershed event in legitimizing the league in the public eye as well as expanding it eastward.

I just fear that, given how the D-fenders did so well helping the Lakers by playing all their home games at Staples, the D-league will end up like the MLS reserve league which basically plays all their games at their parent club's venue.We'll have to see how they do in Ontario next season and beyond. I don't think Buss would mind losing some money on the D-fenders, just not a lot. Same with the Spurs and Toros.

bectond
04-13-2008, 11:09 PM
They are not going to split the rivalry up like that. The Force and Wiz are going to stay in the same division no matter what I'm sure.

Yeah, you're most likely right on that one, if the D-League goes with five team divisions:

Cedar Rapids
Des Moines
Omaha
Sioux Falls
Bismarck

But if they go with four team divisions then I doubt the NBA would split up Sioux Falls and Omaha (if they get a team). Bismarck would have to play in a Northern division. It all depends on if the league has a one to one affiliate set-up or not. If Minot switched leagues and Fargo got an expansion team would Sioux Falls continue as Dakota's top rival?

LandRoverUT60
05-22-2008, 12:51 AM
I've heard that the league is putting a hold on expansion for either this or hext year. Is it true or not? What about any new cities? Anything talk going on out west as far as expansion? Some places I've thought about are: El Paso, TX; Wichita, KS; Colorado Springs, CO; Prescott, AZ; St. George, UT; Casper, WY.

Pounder
05-22-2008, 08:27 PM
It just occured to me that the Jordan / Cuba Gooding commercials are an indication that Jordan doesn't sell the way he used to.

Something to think about.

As for the West: El Paso, UTEP. Wichita, Wichita State.

I might be leery of Colorado Springs (Air Force AND Colorado College) and St. George (Dixie State and, conceivably, in a warped way, Southern Utah), but not as much as the first two. Colorado Springs as the Nuggets' affiliate isn't the worst idea.

My thought, however... don't hold your breath. I hardly imagine Casper and Prescott (Did You Know: pronounced "presskit," not "presSCOTT") as basketball markets. Just a hunch. Even then- works better as part of a western league that Yakima wouldn't mind about right now, NOT as D-League cities.

LandRoverUT60
09-01-2008, 06:25 PM
I know that it may not be the best time to mention this, as the current cities are finalized for 2008-09 and things are starting up for the 2008-09 season, but have there been any mentions for 2009-10, now that we are closer?

TEN
09-01-2008, 06:45 PM
Wichita will have a new downtown arena by next year...could be a good place for a d league team...

LandRoverUT60
09-02-2008, 03:34 PM
Wichita will have a new downtown arena by next year...could be a good place for a d league team...

I like the idea of a team in Wichita. They need to look into that. What's the deal with Portland, ME?

nksports
09-02-2008, 03:41 PM
Wichita will have a new downtown arena by next year...could be a good place for a d league team...

Given what most D-League games draw, a team in Wichita would be better off in Hartman Arena, which is going up across the street (I-135) from the Kansas Coliseum.

bectond
09-03-2008, 12:18 AM
Most of the western conference teams already have affiliates.
LAL - LA
LAC- Anaheim
G.S. - Bakersfield
Sacramento - Reno
Portland - Idaho
Minnesota - Sioux Falls
Denver - Colorado
Utah - Utah
Dallas- Frisco (Future)
San Antonio- Austin
Houston - Rio Grande
OKL. City - Tulsa

That leaves Phoenix, Memphis and New Orleans.

Albuquerque is currently serving Dallas and Miami, but the Thunderbirds could be a long term answer for - Memphis.

If Rockford, Cedar Rapids or Kansas City gets an expansion team Chicago would mostly likely switch to one of those cities. Then Phoenix would continue to use Des Moines, if not then I’d expect the league to expand into Arizona before expanding into Kansas.

The NBA could add another team in Texas for New Orleans, the CHL built a number of arenas in the state of Texas over the last five years that are well suited for the D-League. If not Texas, than somewhere else along the Gulf Coast.

I did hear Kansas City mentioned but not Wichita.

As for 2010 the League is expanding into the NE next - Portland, Trenton, Hartford and perhaps Halifax are next, with Hamilton, Toledo and Harlem later on.

nksports
09-03-2008, 01:27 AM
I did hear Kansas City mentioned but not Wichita.

I've heard KC mentioned more for the NBA than the D-League. I don't think they spent whatever hundreds of millions of $$$ on the Sprint Center just to get a D-League team. They are shooting for NBA and NHL.

bectond
09-03-2008, 08:26 PM
I've heard KC mentioned more for the NBA than the D-League. I don't think they spent whatever hundreds of millions of $$$ on the Sprint Center just to get a D-League team. They are shooting for NBA and NHL.

Lets see... the NHL has a number of troubled teams - Nashville, Florida, Phoenix, Long Island, New Jersey, Washington and Columbus.

Let's face it..South Florida has 5.5 citizens, the Baltimore-Washington area has over 8 mil people, the NY-NJ metro area has over 22 mil; therefore, don't expect the Panthers, Islanders, Devils or Caps to move to little ole K.C. (which is an extremely small pro sports town with a metro area population of 1.6 mil), which already has two major sports franchises sucking up all the sponsorship money. Columbus only has one pro sports team, so I don't expect them to move either. That leaves Phoenix and Nashville, and Winnipeg and Hamliton seem the be ahead of K.C. in the NHL re-location pecking order.

As for the NBA Seattle and Las Vegas head the list for future expansion and Baltimore (8.5 million) is building an arena. No way K.C. ever gets an NBA team.

The only franchises I see moving in the next 10 years are Memphis and New Orleans both of which are small towns just like K.C.

Unlike Oklahoma City towns like NO and KC just don't have a large enough business community to off set their small population to support an NBA. Memphis has a few large companies but the general population is dead broke.

Therefore, the D-League or the WNBA should be options for small markets like KC, Norfolk, Austin (which is the same size population wise as KC and already has a D-League team), Hartford and Rochester, NY.

nksports
09-03-2008, 11:49 PM
KC nearly won the Penguins auction.

KC's metro area population ranks ahead of the following metro areas: San Antonio, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Providence, Orlando, Columbus, New Orleans, Buffalo, Memphis, Austin, Bridgeport-Stamford (how did this place rank?), Salt Lake City, Jacksonville, Louisville, Hartford, Richmond, Charlotte, Nashville, Oklahoma City, Tucson. (U.S. Census).

The arena seats 18,500 with 72 luxury suits.

Besides, you offer an owner enough incentives, he'll move his team to Zzyzx, Calif.

bdyer
09-04-2008, 05:58 PM
KC nearly won the Penguins auction.

KC's metro area population ranks ahead of the following metro areas: San Antonio, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Providence, Orlando, Columbus, New Orleans, Buffalo, Memphis, Austin, Bridgeport-Stamford (how did this place rank?), Salt Lake City, Jacksonville, Louisville, Hartford, Richmond, Charlotte, Nashville, Oklahoma City, Tucson. (U.S. Census).

The arena seats 18,500 with 72 luxury suits.

Besides, you offer an owner enough incentives, he'll move his team to Zzyzx, Calif.I believe the KC suburb of Independence is building a 5800 seat arena, so that may merit some consideration. Pretty sure there is a similarly sized arena in St. Louis as well. It will be interesting to see if the D-League can operate in larger metro areas -- there might be some that realize their NBA dreams are pie in the sky.

nksports
09-04-2008, 07:33 PM
That's where you put minor league teams. You don't go putting them in 18,500 seat arenas. I think the CHL is already committed to Independence for 2009-10, but I'd pick that for the D-League before I'd pick the Sprint Center. (or at least Kemper -- is it still standing?).

In the part of the prairie I'm from, if we are going to see D-League, it would work better in the 5,000-seat arena being built over the 12,000-seat barn downtown or the 10,000-seat barn across the street.

Right now, different NBA owners seem to have different ideas as to what the D-League is. You've got the Lakers using it as a JV team (actually closer to a European soccer reserve team). You have some using it like AAA baseball or AHL hockey. You have some owners who'd just wish it would go away. I think that's one of the answers still needed.

jjbballfan
11-08-2008, 11:16 PM
There was an article in the Rapid City Journal about the D-league.... They said it would probably be a year or 2 before they would consider it because they want to get there hockey team established before they approach it....

PikevilleOT
11-09-2008, 03:43 PM
What are the chances of a DLeague team in the state of Kentucky?

nksports
11-09-2008, 09:31 PM
I don't know what the chances are, but I like the idea. I have family about 50 mi. from Louisville (both sides of the river). OTOH, with U of L and UK, it would be hard to make a go of it.

PikevilleOT
11-10-2008, 05:16 PM
with people seeing the feeder system from the DLeague to the NBA people will buy into it.

stevemerk
11-10-2008, 06:44 PM
I am writing in regard to a future coaching position in the D-League. Possibly with an expansion team.

I have over twenty-five years coaching and administrative experience on the high school, college and professional levels. I have written and published numerous articles in Winning Hoops, Basketball Sense and Coach & Athletic Director magazines. I possess excellent organizational, written and oral communication skills along with the ability to relate effectively to a multitude of individuals from diverse backgrounds.

With my many years experience in basketball, I feel that I am more than qualified to lead a basketball franchise. Please feel free to contact me so we may discuss how I may benefit your team. If anyone has any D-League connections, I would appreciate hearing from you.

Minor League Man
02-13-2009, 07:28 PM
I am writing in regard to a future coaching position in the D-League. Possibly with an expansion team.

I have over twenty-five years coaching and administrative experience on the high school, college and professional levels. I have written and published numerous articles in Winning Hoops, Basketball Sense and Coach & Athletic Director magazines. I possess excellent organizational, written and oral communication skills along with the ability to relate effectively to a multitude of individuals from diverse backgrounds.

With my many years experience in basketball, I feel that I am more than qualified to lead a basketball franchise. Please feel free to contact me so we may discuss how I may benefit your team. If anyone has any D-League connections, I would appreciate hearing from you.
Welcome to OSC...Good luck getting the job!

So, anybody have any word on potential D-League expansion for 2009-10?

mrsummitcitypigskin
02-13-2009, 09:29 PM
I've heard the D-League wants more Eastern & Midwest cities to get involved in the
conversations. They would like to add 2 to 4 more teams. Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Knox-
ville, Quad Cities, Richmond, Evansville, and St.Louis have been mentioned.

bectond
03-08-2009, 10:03 AM
Expansion levels are really going to increase now that the NBA has started the hybrid affilation program. Teams will pay a 400K fee each year to NBDL franchises to control the basketball operations (for Player, coaches and trainer salaries) The D-League should have 30 teams within the next three years. Expansion in Maine, NY, NJ, CT, VA, OH, CA,IL,FL,GA,TX, WY, Canada and the 2 inactive teams should bring the league up to a one for one relationship by the time the new CBA is in place.

skippy
03-08-2009, 12:01 PM
Several teams will bail and the zero sum game will continue until they find a way to make these things come even close to being profitable.

The lies they told these owners to sell these teams off are coming home to roost a bit.

I still can't get a straight answer about southwest basketball's disappearance, which leads me to believe that the high powered group of investors involved there lost interest in this money losing experiment. And they had huge money to burn.

More expenses, more losses. I'm not advocating the IBL's approach either, but alot of these games are a bit like visiting a morgue and would be much better served in smaller buildings.

bectond
03-08-2009, 02:29 PM
What zero sum are you referring to? The league has grow each year and NBA clubs will now pay for all NBDL basketball operations. Team owners will be able to hire more front office staffers, which will lead to increased ticket sales. Also more teams means less travel cost. The cost of doing business just got a lot cheaper. SW had a bad rep. with NBA front office types, therefore they would have had a hard time finding a NBA club to partner up with it is not that hard to understand why the T-birds were sold. The Suns did not want anything to do with them.

skippy
03-08-2009, 07:38 PM
They gain a few, lose one, one moves, etc. How old is the oldest team in the league now?
Three years?

Stabilize that nonsense and then we talk about expansion working. Add to that the CRUSHING, CRUSHING losses these franchises are taking. And, yes it is LEAGUE WIDE. And the losses are HUGE.

Time will tell this off-season.

Btw, how long until Albuquerque is gone?

On five different occassions this year, I've counted less than 300 actual people in the building.

And considering that I don't pay, and no one I know in there is paying...who is paying to see this?

The Magician
03-08-2009, 07:52 PM
Expansion levels are really going to increase now that the NBA has started the hybrid affilation program. Teams will pay a 400K fee each year to NBDL franchises to control the basketball operations (for Player, coaches and trainer salaries) The D-League should have 30 teams within the next three years. Expansion in Maine, NY, NJ, CT, VA, OH, CA,IL,FL,GA,TX, WY, Canada and the 2 inactive teams should bring the league up to a one for one relationship by the time the new CBA is in place.


Although Alabama lost both of their D-League teams, there may be some conversation started about establishing an All-Alabama basketball league or association, with one of the proposed focuses, to work very dilligently, to develop, the 4 major cities of Montgomery, Mobile, Huntsville and Birmingham into attractive D-League/Minor League markets.

DakotaWiz
03-09-2009, 06:59 PM
skippy? What are you smoking? The oldest team is three years old? Sioux Falls has been around for 20 seasons, Dakota will be 15 next season, Idaho's been around for a long time. Tulsa, Austin, and referenced Albuquerque have all been around longer than 3 years.
I have no idea what you're arguing. Is the D-League suddenly unstable?

skippy
03-09-2009, 07:50 PM
First of all, I'm not arguing. That isn't my intent. I don't smoke things, but here's a backhanded remark back at you: These teams don't thrive in areas where there is anything else to do. In Albuquerque, which Lord knows is not a thriving metropolis, the team only has 1/4 time beat writer for the Journal.

Sioux Falls, Idaho, etc were in the CBA for a long time, it has yet to be seen if they will continue to thrive in the D-league for the long term.

I don't believe the D-league is unstable, I believe that they sold people a bill of goods that they aren't delivering. I've had this directly quoted to me by multiple owners. "These teams will be worth something when there is one to one affiliation, we're just holding on till then." Meanwhile, they are losing their shirts.

What I'm stating is that I believe that they should continue to slowly expand, when necessary, not plop teams in markets that don't support them. (cough..Albuquerque, Tulsa, Austin.., hell most of em, where cow tipping isn't a sport...cough)

Make the teams you have successful first, then expand.

Let's remember history. Where are the original D-league teams?

So, let's stop drinking the NBA Kool-Aid and SEE what happens, given that they haven't proven themselves to be infallible in this venture.

I have some photos of the empty arena, 15 minutes before game time in Albuquerque...

skippy
03-09-2009, 08:09 PM
Here ya go, here's a crowd fit for an 8,000 seat arena.

And btw, I don't dislike the D-league, it's the best there is, but let's stay in the realm of reality as to what it is. Will they show this to the Chamber of Commerce when they bring in the expansion presentation?

skippy
03-09-2009, 08:25 PM
Here's my ENTIRE SIDE OF THE ARENA.

And by my, I mean all MINE.

DakotaWiz
03-09-2009, 09:49 PM
Haha, glad it got personal quick. Regardless, cow tipping isn't one of my hobbies, never even been on a farm.

In regards to where the old teams are, they failed, so the D-League changed. Barack's the president, change is good.

How many owners in minor league basketball make money? If an owner is in it to make money within the first three years, there's a problem.

skippy
03-10-2009, 12:05 AM
Not personal at all, I'm just discussing stuff. I respect your opinion. You've had a better experience with the Dakota Wizards than the people have had with the team here, I can respect that, and I'm happy for you. Had to get in the cow tipping dig, after I was accused of smoking stuff.

I take exception to a couple of your ideas, though I respect their right to exist. :)

Losing every franchise is good? Lying to the original 8 communites about providing other events was good? In this case, change was bad.

It's year four, btw, as you pointed out to me earlier, so if a return is to be realized it would be now. And with inactive franchises in Florida and Arkansas, I don't see much profit being made with the exception of selling the teams for a million back to the "big club", like Austin was and cutting your losses.

From what I am hearing now, the move will be to put these teams in larger metropolitan areas, closer to parent clubs, and not even worrying about marketing them. (See D-Fenders and 14'ers).

Pounder
03-12-2009, 02:32 PM
If Skippy accepts that the NBA has been throwing things on the wall to see what sticks because there's no CURRENT proven model available (except maybe in Europe)...

...and if Bec understands that Skippy's conclusion is where we've been headed...

...then this isn't an argument and you guys are on the same page.

DakotaWiz
03-12-2009, 03:09 PM
Getting back on topic, Springfield, Massachusetts is the next D-League team. Details over on my site.

bectond
03-12-2009, 08:13 PM
So the Harlem idea is on hold? What about the Raptors it's mid-march and still no release?

DakotaWiz
03-12-2009, 09:41 PM
Those will be the only two expansion teams. Harlem didn't work out this season, Knicks were going to buy it, but cite struggling economy.
Not sure on Toronto's situation, but nothing for next year.

bectond
03-13-2009, 05:22 PM
I don't know why the NBA does not allow NBA teams to control the rights to at least some of the players on D-league rosters. It does not make sense to expect a team to develop a player when any other team can sign that player at anytime. Instead of have 15 roster spots per NBA team the league should lower the opening day rosters down to 13 and After Jan 10 teams could expand their rosters to 15, if a team fails to promote a player on the 10th, then they could become a free agent(any team can sign them to a 10 day deal.). NBA teams would be able to save a lot of money garaging players in the D-league for 2 1/2 months. The owners should be looking at a development path to save resources. Instead of dropping the MLE as has been suggested. Currently, most NBA teams operate like the Yankees or Red Sox regardly of the market they play in. Point # 2, the future of the league is nba clubs buying existing teams, that is the only way to make money buying a D-league team, for the values to increase parent clubs will have to be able to control the rosters.

jjbballfan
03-18-2009, 02:04 AM
OK, Tulsa and Austin are owned by NBA clubs.... before that they were owned by SW Basketball LLC who ran the teams he ran as cheap as possible...

Albuquerque I believe is under new ownership, and hopefully will be able to work something out with the Suns or a Texas team.... And also hopefully moves to a different venue....

Sioux Falls is fine, so is Dakota..... Idaho is alright......

I think that there will be a few more NBA teams buying Dleague teams this offseason.... With Reno under new ownership (minor league baseball club) I wouldn't be surprised if the Kings got involved, however there is rumors of the Kings fleeing (maybe even going back to Kansas City, and could have a Dleague team in Omaha and then it could be the Kansas City and Omaha Kings.... just one would be a D-League team....

Hope that the league stays strong...

LandRoverUT60
03-18-2009, 02:44 AM
Is Alberquerque (sp?) stable with their new ownership? What are the chances of Las Vegas or St. George, UT getting a team?

Ken, Steelheads fan
03-18-2009, 10:18 AM
From what I am hearing now, the move will be to put these teams in larger metropolitan areas, closer to parent clubs, and not even worrying about marketing them. (See D-Fenders and 14'ers).

I'll have to plead ignorance about the European model, but this is how I see the entire future of the D-league. All teams closer to the parent clubs playing in practice facilities. No marketing. Taxi squads like the NFL. I can't see it any other way. There aren't anymore personalities like Michael Jordan and Larry Bird to cross cultural boundaries and spark additional interest in the sport. Hey, isn't that the guy who dropped 15 points on Jordan last year?!? What's he doing playing for the Mad Ants now? Those type of possibilities don't exist anymore.

BTW, those pics were very telling. Before game or no. It's obvious that arena wasn't going to magically fill to the rafters at any point of the game.

bectond
03-18-2009, 09:19 PM
The NBA business model needs to be updated, players need to be vented prior to signing huge contracts. Losing 1 mil per year operating a minor league club could save the parent clubs 10's of mil annually after you factor in the savings clubs will receive based on developing prospects on the minor league pay scale. Players will receive better coaching which will lead to a better product once the NBA trained players hit the show. Once NBA teams are allowed to control the rosters, D-L team owners will be able to command big bucks for their teams.(Because D-League teams will be extended NBA rosters, a NBDL game will be an NBA game) By the way the Pacers own the minor league baseball team that brought the Reno Bighorns, therefore the Knicks and the Kings will have to find another farm team next year.

DakotaWiz
03-19-2009, 01:33 AM
From what I know about SK Baseball, Herb Simon is a CO-owner of the Pacers. He's also a CO-owner of SK Baseball, along with two other people..

Pounder
03-19-2009, 12:16 PM
I'll try to do a quick an dirty description of the European model.

Most teams have a youth program. Smarter teams will have a young kids program, most will have U-15 to U-19 teams that play regionally.

Then, at least for soccer, there's a reserve team. This helps players not playing on the first team (there's not a roster per se, you sign what you can afford, most pro soccer teams have 40-60 players signed to various contracts, including the youth teams want to keep). I would think they operate similarly for basketball. The reserve team concept would be most helpful for the 10th-12th spots on the roster that rarely see playing time- that's a major reason to have a D-League team in the same market. You will have roster crossover- and you want that.

First team, obviously, we all get this.

There's no substantive school ball in Europe (there's a "schoolboy" competition in England, which is about Little League age or just a year or two older IIRC). You are kind of anchored to your town, your outreach in town must be better than the American pro teams. You DO keep the talent you develop unless they're out of contract. You'll probably pick up folks from other cities along the way, no youth system is perfect in keeping all the talent it develops, coaches make mistakes just like anywhere else.

Part of what pays for this- while America "trades players" a lot, the rest of the world usually sells contracts. That allows teams to choose to remain solvent quicker (you have your big spenders, naturally, perhaps moreso than in America- and salary caps have been discussed and discarded). For that matter, as previously discussed here, NBDL teams and teams in other leagues DO sometimes get a little pocket changes for selling contracts overseas.

bectond
03-19-2009, 05:58 PM
From what I know about SK Baseball, Herb Simon is a CO-owner of the Pacers. He's also a CO-owner of SK Baseball, along with two other people..
Think about it, Simons owns a controlling interest in the Pacers, and the S in SK Baseball stands for Simons.Why do you think they paid 3 mil for a D-league team? I would not be surprised if Pacers to Vegas rumors don't start due to this purchase.

DakotaWiz
03-19-2009, 07:02 PM
Because they already owned the baseball team in town. I don't think this amounts to them becoming controlled by the Pacers, at least not next season as you assume.

jjbballfan
03-23-2009, 08:02 PM
The NBA business model needs to be updated, players need to be vented prior to signing huge contracts. Losing 1 mil per year operating a minor league club could save the parent clubs 10's of mil annually after you factor in the savings clubs will receive based on developing prospects on the minor league pay scale. Players will receive better coaching which will lead to a better product once the NBA trained players hit the show. Once NBA teams are allowed to control the rosters, D-L team owners will be able to command big bucks for their teams.(Because D-League teams will be extended NBA rosters, a NBDL game will be an NBA game) By the way the Pacers own the minor league baseball team that brought the Reno Bighorns, therefore the Knicks and the Kings will have to find another farm team next year.

I did not know that, do you know if they are for sure planning on making it a 1-1 with the pacers? Do you think that the Indianapolis - Las Vegas is a possibility, or do you think that the Pacers would move the Bighorns to a midwest city?

bectond
03-27-2009, 04:07 PM
I did not know that, do you know if they are for sure planning on making it a 1-1 with the pacers? Do you think that the Indianapolis - Las Vegas is a possibility, or do you think that the Pacers would move the Bighorns to a midwest city? One can never be 100% sure, but I believe the Knicks are getting their own franchise and the Kings will share Bakersfield with GS. I don't believe the Bighorns will move east. They are averaging 3500 per night. The only teams that I know of which are looking to relocate are Charlotte, Memphis, New Orleans and Sacramento.
Simons did say that he has lost 20 mil per year for the last 4-5 years so who knows.

DakotaWiz
03-27-2009, 06:35 PM
The Knicks definitely aren't getting a team for next season.

bectond
03-29-2009, 08:08 PM
The Knicks may use Springfield next year, the knicks may have an agreement with the Springfield group.

DakotaWiz
03-30-2009, 12:31 AM
The principal owner is not the Knicks, they won't be owning a team. They have plans to buy their own team, so the hybrid wouldn't work, because that'd be a 3-year commitment. Closest they'll get is the same affiliation with Reno now, just closer.

jjbballfan
03-30-2009, 04:05 AM
One can never be 100% sure, but I believe the Knicks are getting their own franchise and the Kings will share Bakersfield with GS. I don't believe the Bighorns will move east. They are averaging 3500 per night. The only teams that I know of which are looking to relocate are Charlotte, Memphis, New Orleans and Sacramento.
Simons did say that he has lost 20 mil per year for the last 4-5 years so who knows.

The Grizzlies aren't moving any time soon, they are in 1 heck of a contract with the city... they can't leave for another 4 years, and after that they can only leave if tickets drop below a certain point, which the city has the option to buy up enough tickets to keep them above the point, and even if the team is sold the city has the option to find a local buyer to match the bid....

I've heard a rumor that the Bobcats/Blazers are working on something, where the owner of the Blazers (who owns the Seahawks) would sell the Blazers and buy the Bobcats and move the bobcats to Seattle.... or equivalent to...

Everybody thinks that the Bucks are going to move but I don't see it happening, as long as U.S. Senator Kohl owns the Bucks they are staying in Wisconsin....

New Orleans I think is stuck there for a few more years as I am pretty sure that they will surpass there ticket number this year... meaning that they have to stay for I think atleast 3 more years....

I have been surprised that Seattle is such a hot market or rumored to be one... Kansas City has a new Arena, Vegas has a nice arena.... both are pretty darn good markets....

Maybe Kansas City gets a D-League team to show that they can support basketball? sometime soon?

bectond
03-30-2009, 07:06 AM
The principal owner is not the Knicks, they won't be owning a team. They have plans to buy their own team, so the hybrid wouldn't work, because that'd be a 3-year commitment. Closest they'll get is the same affiliation with Reno now, just closer. The knicks hired coaches this off-season to be developmental coaches and they are not buying a team this year or engaging in a hybrid agreement? That is strange.

bectond
03-30-2009, 07:15 AM
The Grizzlies aren't moving any time soon, they are in 1 heck of a contract with the city... they can't leave for another 4 years, and after that they can only leave if tickets drop below a certain point, which the city has the option to buy up enough tickets to keep them above the point, and even if the team is sold the city has the option to find a local buyer to match the bid....

I've heard a rumor that the Bobcats/Blazers are working on something, where the owner of the Blazers (who owns the Seahawks) would sell the Blazers and buy the Bobcats and move the bobcats to Seattle.... or equivalent to...

Everybody thinks that the Bucks are going to move but I don't see it happening, as long as U.S. Senator Kohl owns the Bucks they are staying in Wisconsin....

New Orleans I think is stuck there for a few more years as I am pretty sure that they will surpass there ticket number this year... meaning that they have to stay for I think atleast 3 more years....

I have been surprised that Seattle is such a hot market or rumored to be one... Kansas City has a new Arena, Vegas has a nice arena.... both are pretty darn good markets....

Maybe Kansas City gets a D-League team to show that they can support basketball? sometime soon?

Sacramento and Memphis are in major trouble, the NBA took out a loan to help those teams make payroll. I'd expect one of those teams (along with Charlotte) to be the most likely to re-locate. New Orleans had an out clause this year but I believe the team exceeded the attendance requirements that triggered the out clause.

LandRoverUT60
03-30-2009, 05:22 PM
I'd like for New Orleans to keep the Hornets. You can also add Indiana to Memphis and Sacramento to potential movers--the Pacers are having trouble at the gate and are hemmoraging money as we speak.

As for Seattle being such a hot market--they should have never lost the Sonics in the first place for any reason. If they had an owner that actually cared for the city, then I think that the KeyArena issue would have been eventually solved. I expect to see the Sonics return in some form (Grizzlies, Kings, Bobcats, Pacers) soon.

I'd really hate to see the Kings, Bobcats, or Pacers leave, in any case.

Colonel
03-30-2009, 06:32 PM
I hope so --- but don't count on any help from Phoenix - all year long - I watched them sign players for 10 days -- then release them - and wait the 13 days that they could before they signed the 13th player ----I think the Suns are having some finanical issues also

Pounder
03-31-2009, 01:35 PM
Skeptical of any notion that the Charlotte Bobcats would move when they have management rights to the arena... and Key Arena is managed by the city of Seattle. I think that's a joke of a rumor, frankly.

I know, Allen buys the Bobcats and dumps the Blazers. I'd actually welcome that under the current circumstances, as depending on the buyer, it would cement the stadium proposal here. However, whomever buys the Blazers has to buy the Rose Garden, or else nobody WILL buy. Who wants to give up $600 million or more for a small market team?