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View Full Version : Yakima done, other CBA National teams suspect


DazedAndAmused
04-10-2008, 06:47 PM
What does this do for merger/acquisition prospects?

..especially with Atlanta presumably out and Albany already rumored to be looking at the PBL?

It seems more than ever these leagues need to come to terms and get together.

panchess
04-11-2008, 08:10 AM
..though the hefty travel and rental costs, along with the internal politics of the Yakama Nation, seems to have done in the SunKings.

Butte can't possibly come back as a stand-alone now, so the potential of a merger has increased given the overlapping footprint of the remaining teams and the likely transfers from the ABA Northeast.

Given that footprint, costs could be cut a lot for 2008-2009, particularly for teams like the Albany Patroons, who suddenly would have driveable games to Manchester, Maryland, Reading, Rochester and Buffalo.

not so fast
04-11-2008, 10:50 AM
This is why the PBL has to work on a western Pod of close teams as well. Quad cities, Rockford, Chicago, a team or two from michigan, I believe there is a team from detroit wanting to enter the league, and then a team in Indiana (I still think Elkhart might want to upgrade to a better league.).

Minot seems to be a great organization with a great fan base and a solid coach. They somehow has to be in the mix as well. I really don't know the stability of the other teams out west in the CBA, but arkansas and dallas was poorly run this season, in spite of the great coaching job Todd Day did.

Also, if there is a Chicago team, then the league will have to get a new ownership group in. With all due respect, the Chicago owner was selling food at the concession stand, help running the scoring table, and sometimes taking care of the sound aystem, all in the same game. This reminded me of when I coached grade school.

panchess
04-11-2008, 11:29 AM
..Albany, East Kentucky and Minot in the east. That is basically the core at this point, and the Patroons looked pretty shaky at the end of this season.

Pittsburgh would likely come over too, but their attendance woes make long-term predictions tough. To be fair, the Xplosion have been in existence (including the ABA) as long as any team in the CBA now.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-11-2008, 12:42 PM
This is why the PBL has to work on a western Pod of close teams as well. Quad cities, Rockford, Chicago, a team or two from michigan, I believe there is a team from detroit wanting to enter the league, and then a team in Indiana (I still think Elkhart might want to upgrade to a better league.).

Minot seems to be a great organization with a great fan base and a solid coach. They somehow has to be in the mix as well. I really don't know the stability of the other teams out west in the CBA, but arkansas and dallas was poorly run this season, in spite of the great coaching job Todd Day did.

Also, if there is a Chicago team, then the league will have to get a new ownership group in. With all due respect, the Chicago owner was selling food at the concession stand, help running the scoring table, and sometimes taking care of the sound aystem, all in the same game. This reminded me of when I coached grade school.

Forget about Elkhart. It's not broken in Elkhart (IBL), so don't expect them to go fixing things. Besides, they play in a high school gym and would have to compete with Notre Dame (and Indiana high schools) in the winter. Besides again--the PBL and CBA aren't upgrades, imo.

psbf
04-11-2008, 12:47 PM
The Xplosion are working on their 4th year overall, Panchess, regardless of what happens next season.

Ken, I'm sure it's just a natural mistake but it's Notre Dame;)

psbf
04-11-2008, 12:49 PM
Panchess, I meant that as a confirmation to your previous post:)

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-11-2008, 01:02 PM
The Xplosion are working on their 4th year overall, Panchess, regardless of what happens next season.

Ken, I'm sure it's just a natural mistake but it's Notre Dame;)

You're right. Too much soy. I'm losing too many brain cells. I'll fix it now.

DazedAndAmused
04-11-2008, 02:54 PM
Besides again--the PBL and CBA aren't upgrades, imo.

By most key metrics, the CBA and PBL would be considered significant upgrades. That's not because of the league or how it is managed perse. It's that nature of a "US summer league".....fewer fans, lesser pay, smaller venues, lower overall budgets. Having said that, the IBL actually has a sustainable business model, and I think it's a great league. But, it's apples and oranges. Players largely consider the IBL a summer league, something to do to stay in shape, and possibly to get exposure from more eyes in the off season.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-11-2008, 11:34 PM
Besides again--the PBL and CBA aren't upgrades, imo.

By most key metrics, the CBA and PBL would be considered significant upgrades. That's not because of the league or how it is managed perse. It's that nature of a "US summer league".....fewer fans, lesser pay, smaller venues, lower overall budgets. Having said that, the IBL actually has a sustainable business model, and I think it's a great league. But, it's apples and oranges. Players largely consider the IBL a summer league, something to do to stay in shape, and possibly to get exposure from more eyes in the off season.

...and of course, I disagree. The D-League is an upgrade. The CBA and PBL are not upgrades. It's a new day and age. I seem to remember the CBA and PBL also having fewer fans, lesser pay, smaller venues, and lower overall budgets (on average). Hmmmmmm. Weren't there more than a couple of CBA teams that could not afford uniforms this season? And what of Dallas in the PBL?

not so fast
04-12-2008, 10:46 AM
Ken its good to see you now in the marketing office for the IBL. You continue to discredit yourself, every time you try and shamefully put the rec league ibl ahead of the CBA or PBL.

If you want some horror stories about the ibl, I will be glad to give you some. Starting with the playoffs that are open only to the teams that can afford to go. Now thats a concept for fair and balanced.

and what was this pre season tournament that counts for their actual records? I know of a team that played, that had no idea that these pre- season games will count, which of course now makes them season games, but the owner did not know, because the iBL office did not tell them.
I could go on for hours about the problems with the IBL if you like. And by the way, can you really compare the talent of Leon Smith, mo carter, jemil rich, galen young, rich king, to this team of steelheads of now?

Ken quit drinking the ibl kool aid!!!

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-12-2008, 02:55 PM
Ken its good to see you now in the marketing office for the IBL. You continue to discredit yourself, every time you try and shamefully put the rec league ibl ahead of the CBA or PBL.

If you want some horror stories about the ibl, I will be glad to give you some. Starting with the playoffs that are open only to the teams that can afford to go. Now thats a concept for fair and balanced.

and what was this pre season tournament that counts for their actual records? I know of a team that played, that had no idea that these pre- season games will count, which of course now makes them season games, but the owner did not know, because the iBL office did not tell them.
I could go on for hours about the problems with the IBL if you like. And by the way, can you really compare the talent of Leon Smith, mo carter, jemil rich, galen young, rich king, to this team of steelheads of now?

Ken quit drinking the ibl kool aid!!!

Please re-read my last post. It's a new day and age. The former Steelheads you mentioned above ALL were called-up to the NBA or were given a serious look by NBA teams. That doesn't happen nowadays because players are called-up exclusively from the D-League. Therefore, the talent is lacking in the CBA and PBL as well as other basketball leagues outside of the D-League. I don't buy the agrument that the CBA and PBL are upgrades over the IBL. What?!? Owners can lose more money at a faster rate, therefore it's considered an upgrade?!? I don't get it.

not so fast
04-12-2008, 04:29 PM
Ken, players salaries will determine a better league, and as well as better players. The ibl does have a few good players, but then it drops off greatly. And thats because they don't pay much or at all to the back up players.

You look at the league from a business side of making money, i look at leagues based on players and how talented they are. And since I have helped coach in the IBL, CBA, and PBL and ran camps for all the leagues, I might have an idea on which talent level is better. The CBA, then PBL, then IBL.

The reason the some ibl teams doesnt lose money could be the coaches are nearly working for free and so are many of the players, they mostly use small gyms to play in (but im sure the city of gary isnt charging jewel harris much since what else would they put in the arena), so when you have no expenses its hard to lose money.

My local park district has league just like the ibl, just without the travel, not really much difference. but keep promoting it. Someone might believe you. Im sure the league commissioner will give you front row seats for the all star game.

FrontOffice
04-12-2008, 08:30 PM
This is what is comes down to... What looks better on a player's basketball resume, CBA or IBL? Hands down the CBA wins every time.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-13-2008, 01:36 PM
This is what is comes down to... What looks better on a player's basketball resume, CBA or IBL? Hands down the CBA wins every time.

Says who?!?

Three years ago I would have agreed with you. However, why does a first-year league like the PBL or a league like the current CBA look better on a player's resume than the IBL? The 2007 CBA leading scorer, Shaun Fountain, comes off the bench for the IBL Gary Steelheads.

Please explain...because at the end of the day, there are still no NBA call-ups from these leagues.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-13-2008, 01:38 PM
...and yes, I was being purposely misleading in the previous post. Shaun Fountain may come off the bench, but he is the Steelheads best point/shooting guard.

psbf
04-13-2008, 03:15 PM
Fountain is playing for Gary now?? After he disappeared from the X lineup with explanation? That makes no sense(imo)

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-13-2008, 04:02 PM
Fountain is playing for Gary now?? After he disappeared from the X lineup with explanation? That makes no sense(imo)

Fountain probably left the Xplosion to join the Gary Steelheads because of overlapping schedules. Yep, left the CBA to join an inferior league (IBL) in an inferior city (Gary) according to some posters. :roll:

You can watch Shaun Fountain draining a couple of threes for the Steelheads in the following video (he's #11). Please reduce the size of the video for better quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YFsIdbxqA0

psbf
04-13-2008, 04:26 PM
No thanks, I saw what he did when he was here. Now, no need for me to see the traitor at work:(

FrontOffice
04-13-2008, 05:06 PM
Says who?!?

Three years ago I would have agreed with you. However, why does a first-year league like the PBL or a league like the current CBA look better on a player's resume than the IBL? The 2007 CBA leading scorer, Shaun Fountain, comes off the bench for the IBL Gary Steelheads.

Please explain...because at the end of the day, there are still no NBA call-ups from these leagues.

I don't know where you think you're going with the whole "no call ups" arguement. Because of the NBDL, there will be no call ups during the season from any other league, it's just not going to happen. But that doesn't mean every other league carries the same weight.

I know you want to defend the league your team is now in. You need it to be legitamite, I get that. Best part is that the IBL is becoming a good league. But a little perspective, please. The IBL/USBL and leagues of the like lack the overall talent of the winter leagues. Mainly because those quality winter guys go overseas after the CBA/PBL/NBDL ends for a big payday, or rest & regear for a run at an NBA Summer team. Besides Fountain (who hasn't played a game since mid January for whatever reason), most of this year's CBA guys in the IBL were rotational players at best.

not so fast
04-13-2008, 06:21 PM
ken, you are someone I like, and respect, you have been as loyal of a fan for gary as anyone I know. In fact, judging by the the indictments with your mayor and police chief and others, maybe you should run for Mayor.

But I refuse to argue with you any longer about this league against league. And I know you are smarter than this, than to suggest that the ibl is a good league.

I remember when your owner paid Jemil Rich $1200 a week in the CBA. Now his top players get what $150 a game? Just make sure your owner saves some money for the playoffs, we wouldn't want to miss the playoffs because of lack of funds. And as I recall, all the CBA teams that qualified this season made the playoffs and played this season, and 1st year league PBL had all 10 teams playing in the playoffs.

No person in their right mind would make a case for this silly run league, thats now in its fourth year, and is still in the same place it was when it started. And as my mother used to say to me, "son, never argue with a fool, because people listening can't tell the difference on who the fool is".

panchess
04-13-2008, 06:30 PM
..after playing six games. That's a cool trick in any league!

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-13-2008, 10:07 PM
I don't know where you think you're going with the whole "no call ups" arguement. Because of the NBDL, there will be no call ups during the season from any other league, it's just not going to happen. But that doesn't mean every other league carries the same weight.

I know you want to defend the league your team is now in. You need it to be legitamite, I get that. Best part is that the IBL is becoming a good league. But a little perspective, please. The IBL/USBL and leagues of the like lack the overall talent of the winter leagues. Mainly because those quality winter guys go overseas after the CBA/PBL/NBDL ends for a big payday, or rest & regear for a run at an NBA Summer team. Besides Fountain (who hasn't played a game since mid January for whatever reason), most of this year's CBA guys in the IBL were rotational players at best.

...and those quality guys that played overseas during the winter are free to play in the IBL during the spring. Same argument, but this time applied to the IBL. BTW, the USBL was always known for having excellent talent. The USBL is gone and naturally some of that talent will filter on to the IBL.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-13-2008, 10:23 PM
ken, you are someone I like, and respect, you have been as loyal of a fan for gary as anyone I know. In fact, judging by the the indictments with your mayor and police chief and others, maybe you should run for Mayor.

But I refuse to argue with you any longer about this league against league. And I know you are smarter than this, than to suggest that the ibl is a good league.

I remember when your owner paid Jemil Rich $1200 a week in the CBA. Now his top players get what $150 a game? Just make sure your owner saves some money for the playoffs, we wouldn't want to miss the playoffs because of lack of funds. And as I recall, all the CBA teams that qualified this season made the playoffs and played this season, and 1st year league PBL had all 10 teams playing in the playoffs.

No person in their right mind would make a case for this silly run league, thats now in its fourth year, and is still in the same place it was when it started. And as my mother used to say to me, "son, never argue with a fool, because people listening can't tell the difference on who the fool is".

I don't know how much the top players are paid in Gary. The Steelheads play one--two games at the most per week. Question: Do you think Gary can attract the likes of Sam Mack, Kenyon Gamble, Adam Schaper, and Shaun Fountain for only $150 per game? Maybe, I don't know.

MJHankel
04-14-2008, 01:29 AM
..after playing six games. That's a cool trick in any league!

Just curious, what are you talking about?

DazedAndAmused
04-14-2008, 11:52 AM
I don't know how much the top players are paid in Gary. The Steelheads play one--two games at the most per week. Question: Do you think Gary can attract the likes of Sam Mack, Kenyon Gamble, Adam Schaper, and Shaun Fountain for only $150 per game? Maybe, I don't know.

Ken, I like the IBL. In fact, if I were going to put a start up team in any league, I personally would do it in the IBL for precisely the reason you mention: I would lose money at a slower rate!

Having said that, I would lose money at a lower rate because I would pay my players less, I might be playing in a high school venue, and my marketing budget would be very limited. (Have you seen the IBL business prospective?..it shows a 40k budget!)

There are under achievers and over achievers in all leagues. Your experience may be with an over achiever. However, BY FAR, CBA and PBL players are paid MUCH more and the attendance is MUCH higher. Thus, the rest of the world sees these leagues as upgrades. More importantly, players see these leagues as upgrades...in fact so much so, that many players chose to work "day jobs" in the off season rather than playing in the IBL, if they can't get to Puerto Rico or other international summer leagues where they can make decent money.

Sure, the IBL does pick up a few good players, but it is a summer league!