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not so fast
04-03-2008, 11:53 AM
Well I wonder whats going on with the merger, I have heard a few things, but nothing confirmed. It seems like it may not happen, but if it does, what will happen to the teams left out of the merger? Will they go back to the ABA?

It will take a whole lot of marketing to get some of the west teams in the PBL to grow in attendance. It will take the whole summer and then some. My question is, do they have the staff and the will to do it? Is there really a market in arkansas for minorleague basketball? Can Rockford and quad cities revitalize a market that once had other CBA teams? Does chicago have any kind of game plan to survive, and shouldnt the chicago franchise play in the suburbs so to draw a fan base that doesnt have to drive into the city for a game? IDoes dallas have stable ownership yet?

So many questions, so little answers so far.

DazedAndAmused
04-03-2008, 01:35 PM
good questions. the good news is that season has only been over for a few days. my guess is that everyone may be slowing down in the short term to catch their collective breaths....then back to planning next year.

bdaly
04-03-2008, 02:09 PM
If you watch the RNews segment that's featured on the PBL's main page, they've received interest from 20+ markets, but they only plan to add four teams. We know Buffalo is one of them, and there's talk of two Canadian teams (Montreal and Toronto). That'll certainly solidify the eastern region. I'd be surprised if they don't lose a few teams too. I remain hopeful that some sort of merger will happen, but I suspect we'll be waiting for some time before they hash it all out.

not so fast
04-04-2008, 11:03 AM
I have no reason to suspect this, but is it possible that the league is going to stay on the east coast and drop the west all together? Because the way it is heading, they have not actively sought west division franchises, although the Gary steelheads and maybe trying to entice the Elkhart team from the IBL
would make a lot of sense.

If you had a division of Elkhart, Gary, Chicago, Quad cities, and Rockford, you would have teams all within bus rides of each other. In addition, you could have the east coast teams fly to chicago, and then bus them to all their west division games, then they could make one flight and play all five teams in the west in lets say a two week period.

Whatever they decide, it needs to start soon, the teams in the west will need the summer to rev up their marketing and sales dept.

LightningMan
04-04-2008, 12:38 PM
I like your lineup, not so fast. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

TopSpin
04-04-2008, 03:49 PM
If I'm the PBL, I would not be looking to merger with anybody. I would not go after any teams in another league. However, if a team from another league approched me, I would not turn them away, espeically if from the CBA or IBL. I would not even talk to an ABA team, just say NO! Merging with another league means management issues. I would continue on trying to develop our own unigue game plan. Let the teams come to you if they want to play. Just my 2 cents....

panchess
04-06-2008, 01:29 PM
..travel notwithstanding, would be a strong addition to either the PBL or CBA from a management and franchise perspective.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

SignGuyDino
04-06-2008, 01:41 PM
I would rather see strong regional leagues, one for fall/winter, and one for spring/summer.

I wouldn't mind each league having a season for each time period, either.

Let's work to make the PBL, IBL and CBA stronger, maybe build a credible southeast league, certainly the WBA isn't doing the job and there are no serious alternatives right now.

runninref
04-06-2008, 04:37 PM
A few things to consider and remember concerning the "merger" possabilities ....
1. PBL is centered in Chicago, not Rochester , therefore it is safe to say the (mid) West will remain intact to an extent.
2. IBL teams are geared for Summer ball. Outside of Gary, they don't have experience with winter ball, and I would bet have no desire to get into winter ball.
3. PBL and CBA current management are mostly former ABA "castoffs". For obvious reasons, both management systems didn't see eye to eye with Mr. Newman's gameplan.
4. It is not a given that PBL and CBA management see eye to eye now even given their common ground. During the season, both leagues are entirely different beasts altogether.
5. The PBL has made three offers to buy the CBA, all three turned down at this point. What should this tell us?
6. Far west teams would be a logistical nightmare for any league which mostly has teams in the East and Midwest. What do you do with Yakima if there is a super league with no Butte, etc.? Yakima is well funded and has a place somewhere.
7. PBL is a weekend mostly league which seems to be a great plan. CBA plays whenever the arena in question is available with no regard to travel costs, which seems to be a plan destined for failure.
8. There will be some stronger ABA castoffs looking for a place to play. For example: What happens to Halifax if the D league says no? Do you think they will go back to the ABA? I doubt it. What about Manchester, Quebec, or even Vermont) with their short court? My guess is Vermont stays in the ABA and rides out the storm. Why would it leave? Alex is making money and the Frost Heave Nation is a happy place.
9. In the ABA's current form, there is a place for it in Minor league basketball. Dispite all of it's faults, it is a stepping stone, or a weeding out league, if you will. It separates the wannabees from the business professionals in Minor league basketball.
10. Minor league basketball is a business. Those in control (CBA and PBL and Alex in Vermont) will do what is best for the bottom line. They are not idiots. It isn't just about stopping the bleeding or hanging on for the promise of better days, it is also about making a buck by running a successful franchise in a welcoming market.
11. Nothing concerning minor league basketball has ever worked for an extended period of time in the Southeast.:D

SignGuyDino
04-06-2008, 06:36 PM
11. Nothing concerning minor league basketball has ever worked for an extended period of time in the Southeast.

Boy, this sounds two-faced, doesn't it?

It was just one month ago when the same person said this, referring to the WBA, the only minor basketball league in the southeast:

USBA will replace this league as it is an unorganized nightmare.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?p=85830#post85830

BUSTED!


Isn't this the same USBA that is STILL promoting an illegal raffle on their website?

http://www.usbaball.com/SEASON_TICKET_EXTRAVAGANZA.html

The same website that says the "schedules are complete" without ONE SINGLE lease deal announced? Even claimed Asheville as part of that league until I and others called him out on that lie. (How can the schedule be complete when Civic Center Commissioners were calling this league an "imaginary league?") Weren't they scheduled to start this weekend? That's what the website says.

http://www.usbaball.com/schedule.html

The same website that says "Our web site is currently under construction, Please stay tuned as we will be fully operational shortly" and hasn't been changed for months?

www.usbaball.com

Now, why would ANYONE be promoting a league and recruting business with no evidence of arena lease deals, instead of shutting it down or at least acknowleging no-go for this year?

Since this person is possibly Duane Jenkins or a friend, that somebody should tell the webmaster of that site (who is Duane Jenkins) to shut it down before authorities figure out it's fraud.

robster2001
04-06-2008, 07:42 PM
Any league official who gets their email at a yahoo.com address instead of the website domain address should be looked on with some level of suspicion.


If you need furthur details please call:
Duane Allen Jenkins
President
(770) 895-1671
0r
email me at unitedstatesbasketballassoc@yahoo.com


Hmm....

SignGuyDino
04-06-2008, 09:21 PM
I would prefer each region had a strong minor league, but if the PBL and CBL decide to merge that's fine with me.

runninref
04-06-2008, 09:57 PM
You should remember I said the USBA wouldn't get off the ground this season and when it did it would replace the WBA. Nothing has changed ... it won't get off the ground this season. As for the WBA, do some investigating yourselves. You will find it is a house built on sand. Anything with an ounce of integrity could replace the WBA!D

runninref
04-07-2008, 06:52 AM
(Removed by moderator) It was my understanding that this board (oursportscentral) was here for exchanging information, speculation, and entertainment. Please correct me if I am wrong! It was also my understanding that this thread was to be about a possible CBA / PBL merger. Again, please correct me if I am wrong. And Lastly, I wouldn't know Duane Jenkins if we were face to face nor do I care if the USBA gets off the ground or not. I am just sharing information.:mrgreen:

CHris902
04-07-2008, 06:13 PM
Since you have outed yourself...really? You said the USBA will not get off the ground this season? WHEN did you say this? Because the website STILL says the season starts THIS WEEKEND!

You STILL haven't answered any of my questions about the USBA's fraudulent claim that "the schedules are ready," the illegal raffle, the claim that website will be complete shortly, etc.

Why are you now claiming your league won't get off the ground this season? It doesn't say so on the website. It says "the schedules are complete."

And don't worry, copies of your website, complete with the childish photos, poor spelling, grammar and punctuation ("leagues sponsosors and advertisors" being one of my favorites), and all those phony claims are already made.

The WBA at least updated their website in the last month, which is more than your so-called "league."

You didn't secure a lease anywhere (and I looked for a single newspaper story that said you did, found one where the guy running the venue you supposedly were seeking never even heard of you at the time), but the USBA is going to replace the WBA? Please. More likely no basketball or a credible league will step in for 2009.

You're not exactly the person we are going to refer to on opinions on a possible CBA/PBL merger or any other subject.

Looks like the USBA has found its a1sports.

not so fast
04-07-2008, 06:54 PM
I am hoping that the two leagues hurry with these talks. They need to make some decisions soon. Its only fair to coaches as well. But in minorleague basketball when it comes to teams, less is more. You don't need 16 teams, you need 10 solid franchises. You are only as good as your weakest link. If one team folds or has all kinds of problems, it really messes things up. And if two or more have problems, then its really ugly.

So that being said, PBL/CBA, just get ten solid franchises and be done with it. Lets see, 1. Yakima, 2. Minot, 3. Quad cities, 4. Rochester, 5.Maryland, 6.Wilmington, 7. Reading, 8. Pittsburgh, 9.Eastern Kentucky, 10. Rockford

**I am prejudice toward Rockford because its an hours drive for me!

I know this list will be controversial so bring it on!

DazedAndAmused
04-07-2008, 07:09 PM
as much as i'd like to see it....i think minot and yakima are too far off the beaten path for it to work.....and unless you can get it to a twenty something game season, i'd don't see an agreement between the leagues. a splintering is more likely.

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-07-2008, 10:03 PM
Would'nt 12 teams make more sense? (with clusters of three teams each)
For instance,
Rochester (PBL)
Albany (CBA)
New Hampshire or Halifax (ABA)
as the Northeast

Pittsburgh (CBA)
Reading (PBL)
East Kentucky (CBA)
as the Central

Lawton (CBA)
McAllen (CBA)
Texas (ABA) {plays as a regional franchise with games in both Wichita Falls and the Dallas area)
as the Southwest

Yakama
Butte
Minot
as the West

Play each divisional team 12 times and all others twice.

The PBL could remain same a short season class A type league with
Gary, Quad Cities, Rockford and Chi-town in the west.
Vermont, Quebec, Montreal and either New Hampshire or Halifax in the NE
and Maryland, Wilmington, Arkansas and Buffalo in the Mid-east.
Play each team 2x for a total of 22 games per year.

Why do people always want to put Gary back in the CBA or in that other leaque of a league, the PBL? The IBL seems to be head and shoulders above BOTH the CBA and PBL.

not so fast
04-08-2008, 01:16 AM
Ken, in no way, is the IBL better than any league. Please be serious, the iBL is as semi rec as it gets. There are some good franchises, but the CBA, and PBL is far better leagues. Just look at the players? look at the Coaches? I mean most teams barely pay their players if at all, the level of competition is so bad in IBL, and I like the league, but I am also a realist. The teams normally practice once a week, and play once or twice a week.

But they are consistent, they are at the same level every year. The quality of talent or coaching has not improved at all in its 4 years.

But hey, it serves a purpose. Its too bad the ibl did not capitalize on the usbl demise, and get better. they seem to be content just like they are.

As far as gary is concerned, stay where you are. The mistake on the lake!!

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-08-2008, 08:24 AM
Ken, in no way, is the IBL better than any league. Please be serious, the iBL is as semi rec as it gets. There are some good franchises, but the CBA, and PBL is far better leagues. Just look at the players? look at the Coaches? I mean most teams barely pay their players if at all, the level of competition is so bad in IBL, and I like the league, but I am also a realist. The teams normally practice once a week, and play once or twice a week.

But they are consistent, they are at the same level every year. The quality of talent or coaching has not improved at all in its 4 years.

But hey, it serves a purpose. Its too bad the ibl did not capitalize on the usbl demise, and get better. they seem to be content just like they are.

As far as gary is concerned, stay where you are. The mistake on the lake!!

You've practically made my case with the above post. However, I think the quality of play has improved now that the USBL is gone. I just don't see the need for expensive winter leagues like the CBA or PBL especially when NBA call-ups are a thing of the past. Actually, I don't see the need for the D-League either as it exists (but that's another post).

runninref
04-08-2008, 09:14 AM
It has been my experience with the quality of play from greatest to least ... 1. NBDL obviously, 2. CBA (if you take Atlanta out of the mix), 3. PBL (very close to CBA), 4. IBL (this league is a mixed bag, some good, some average, some very bad), 5. ABA ... those not listed, I have no experience with. Where would you guys rate the other leagues based on level of play?:mrgreen:

Pounder
04-08-2008, 02:16 PM
Are there enough fans who even give two squats about which league gets what talent?

In all reality, a fun competitive game (if you can somehow manage to attain that), FOR MOST FANS, trumps the notion that an IBL team might beat a CBA team (which I doubt, for the record). The important thing is ticket sales and sponsorships, without which you can't even start having a debate about your team being better than anything, including your kid's 3rd grade team.

Available evidence has shown me that the IBL and CBA and PBL are, well, at Suck Factor 8- pretty far down the Suck chain. The IBL probably has a wiser geographic arrangment IDEA, but it can't keep the teams that make the arrangement viable. The CBA and PBL need more regionality, presuming that's not a block to selling tickets.

BTW, on the Suck Factor scale of 1 to 10, 10 being Infinite Suck and 1 being just the mildest little suck, the ABA registers at around 365.

misenern
04-08-2008, 02:32 PM
It has been my experience with the quality of play from greatest to least ... 1. NBDL obviously, 2. CBA (if you take Atlanta out of the mix), 3. PBL (very close to CBA), 4. IBL (this league is a mixed bag, some good, some average, some very bad), 5. ABA ... those not listed, I have no experience with. Where would you guys rate the other leagues based on level of play?:mrgreen:

The top ABA teams could compete in PBL. I don't see how you could say the PBL is very close to the CBA, while the ABA is by far the lowest tier. The PBL has a huge number of former ABA players, and even had an ABA team (Texas) playing in the league.

turbocamyes
04-08-2008, 03:24 PM
I agree with misenern about the quality of a number of the ABA players, who I think rank up with the CBA. If I were to rank the leagues from 1-10, with the D-League at 10, they’d go something like this: D-League 10, CBA 8, PBL 7, ABA (top teams) 7, and the IBL, USBL and rest of the ABA as 3 to 4.
My only way of judging is by cross-pollination, or comparing the stats of players who play in multiple leagues. I’ll try and put some numbers together tonight for the 2006-07 season and post them in the morning.

bdaly
04-08-2008, 03:28 PM
The top ABA teams could compete in PBL. I don't see how you could say the PBL is very close to the CBA, while the ABA is by far the lowest tier. The PBL has a huge number of former ABA players, and even had an ABA team (Texas) playing in the league.
The CBA isn't that much different. Indiana came over from the ABA last year and held their own quite well. Pittsburgh came over from the ABA and had a little less luck. The Skyrockets also came from SJ as they were a solid ABA squad (granted, the roster changed a decent amount). I'd assume the CBA's longer schedule might make it more attractive to players, but both leagues have their share of ex-ABA teams and players. I'll agree that the top of the ABA could probably compete in the PBL or CBA fairly well. Sitting through games with all of the average and below average ABA teams (assuming they show) is what makes it difficult as a fan.

DazedAndAmused
04-08-2008, 03:52 PM
I agree with misenern about the quality of a number of the ABA players, who I think rank up with the CBA. If I were to rank the leagues from 1-10, with the D-League at 10, they’d go something like this: D-League 10, CBA 8, PBL 7, ABA (top teams) 7, and the IBL, USBL and rest of the ABA as 3 to 4.
My only way of judging is by cross-pollination, or comparing the stats of players who play in multiple leagues. I’ll try and put some numbers together tonight for the 2006-07 season and post them in the morning.

I think turbo's relative assessment is right on. I would further detail it by saying i think the top 5 teams in the CBA and PBL would both get the same score. The bottom 5 in each is slightly weighted in favor of the CBA. Rochester is probably the best team and organization in both leagues.

psbf
04-08-2008, 03:54 PM
did well because they had a coach who knew what he was doing. We did not do well because of hiring an inexperienced coach, who was the only one available at the time as I recall.

misenern
04-08-2008, 06:49 PM
I honestly don't know that much about the CBA, but all of you guys seem to be on the money. The lower end ABA teams certainly lack overall talent.

turbocamyes
04-11-2008, 06:44 PM
Sorry this has taken so long to put together. My goal was to compare scoring averages for players in multiple leagues during the 2006-07 season. The most suspect data was from the ABA and IBL which supplied limited stats. In some cases I know a player played a full season (Cardell Butler at SD is a good example) but I have only a few games. In the end I simply averaged the scoring totals for players in one league and compared them to their totals in a second (ABA to IBL, ABA to USBL, etc.) Not the best way to compare, but given the limited stats, I figured it would give a very basic view of the play in each league. My initial guess was that players in the D-League would score more in the CBA and even more in the other leagues. In most cases this held true, except for when leagues were compared to the USBL. The average combined points scored per game per league were:

IBL: 258.16
ABA: 220.93
CBA: 212.19
D-Lge: 207.13
USBL: 189.36

League ABA CBA IBL NBDL USBL
ABA X 14.95 12.90 18.00 13.36
CBA 10.18 X 8.97 14.61 13.25
IBL 14.98 13.52 X 18.49 19.00
NBDL 4.27 10.63 13.97 X 7.11
USBL 9.54 10.31 11.09 10.16 X
The link to the file with the raw stats is:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pfA1C911Mgsuq7EA4vJwrMQ&hl=en

BBallFan - Long Island
04-14-2008, 01:42 PM
Absent nice stats and geographic analysis, what precludes a merger is often dollars and cents. Regardless of the individual teams' success or failures financially, there are obligations between the teams and the respective leagues not to mention who would actually run a merged league. If a team from one of the leagues did not survive, they might expect to be compensated regardless of whether they were financially successful. So what you may have is ownership of teams that know they aren't going to field a team next year bluffing that they are in on any merger in hopes for a payout.

Recruiting specific teams to jump leagues is also dependant on "opt-out" penalties in franchise agreements for teams departing for a different league. Jumping out of the ABA seems to happen all the time, but the experts and insiders on this board may know the terms of the franchise arrangments better than me. So, you may have additional expenses here.

Lastly, you have the question of leadership in the survivor league - is there a place for everyone at the table, and will there be one or two heads of the table?

CHris902
04-14-2008, 02:45 PM
Recruiting specific teams to jump leagues is also dependant on "opt-out" penalties in franchise agreements for teams departing for a different league. Jumping out of the ABA seems to happen all the time, but the experts and insiders on this board may know the terms of the franchise arrangments better than me. So, you may have additional expenses here.


Joe Newman does not sell "franchises" he sells "market reservations." I don't know exactly what the legal differences are, but it does change the responsibilities of the ABA and the teams. Someone else can probably clarify.

panchess
04-14-2008, 03:48 PM
..in 2006-2007, Indiana and Minot came over as dominant ABA teams (both were around .900 winning percentage), and Pittsburgh as a pretty good one (I think they were 18-13). Indiana finished at .500 in the CBA, Pittsburgh was 10-38 and Minot was 31-17.

The difference in Minot was a veteran CBA coach and management, and basically cleaned out the ABA roster and started over in a new location.

Indiana and Pittsburgh basically came over with ABA squads and in Pittsburgh's case, a former high school basketball coach, and both took a big step backward in record.

Given there were only seven teams in the CBA for half the season, and the two Montana teams were expansion franchises, I think that year shows clearly the difference between the CBA and ABA. The ABA teams should have done better.

No ABA teams came to the CBA in 2007-2008, so there are no comparables.

Among the solid franchises, I thought the USBL was at least on par with the CBA. The Delaware, Jackson and New Jerseys of the world populating the lower half of the USBL dragged the league down.

psbf
04-14-2008, 05:37 PM
Close enough, Panchess. Our coach in the ABA(Tom Thacker) had no pro experience either but he had a systemp that worked. When we moved to the CBA, it was a whole new team and new coach.

Paul S
04-14-2008, 09:07 PM
Joe Newman does not sell "franchises" he sells "market reservations." I don't know exactly what the legal differences are, but it does change the responsibilities of the ABA and the teams. Someone else can probably clarify.

Good point as there is a huge difference.

A franchise has certain legal stipulations. IE the franchisee (Joe) must provide a prospectus, a list of people who have bought the franchise in the past 10 years in your state, must spell out how to disolve the franchise if either side wants to dissassociate and financial accounting based on real world results of other franchises' (if there are other franchises, assuming you are not the first). There are numerous laws about franchises' and franchisee rights in every state and province. You are also assigned a Client Manager who will guide you throught the sales process and then a customer service manager who will guide you through the training and then a relationship manager who will guide you after you open the door.

A market reservation is a term that Joe has dreamed up and basically means you send him 10k and you get the right to operate a team in a set area until Joe decides or you go broke or to another league.

panchess
04-15-2008, 09:15 AM
..but the fact is that in the ABA, a large city team never really should be that bad if they can actually get through the season because there is more "free talent" (and most of the time in the ABA, it is free) available to throw on the roster.

In the CBA or PBL, you have to recruit pro players and run a pro system to succeed.

preeths
04-15-2008, 12:09 PM
The ABA's use of the term "market reservation" has always intrigued me. When it places multiple franchises in the Chicago area in the same season, I wonder what market is actually being reserved. It obviously isn't the entire city. A few square blocks, maybe? Is the term "market" defined in the agreement?

BBallFan - Long Island
04-15-2008, 02:49 PM
Thanks for clarifying the difference with the "market reservation". But to advance the thought, who is to stop someone from forming their own team, calling it an ABA team and scheduling games with existing ABA teams? It seems to me that if you can make every game scheduled, or even fill in for cancellations (probably the biggest value is being a stand in), what's the difference? Your risk is that Mr. Newman will ceaselessly call for the reservation fee, and maybe you have to negotiate.

Getting back to the PBL/CBA merger/acquisition discussions, who is in the lead?

preeths
04-15-2008, 08:43 PM
You wouldn't be able to call yourself an ABA team without repercussions, but that doesn't stop teams from playing ABA opponents, even during the season.

TEN
04-15-2008, 10:26 PM
While it's painfully obvious that the USBL won't be around this year....In this comparison game, I thought I would let you in on some conversations with coaches who have coached in both the USBL and D-league (at the same time).

Last year I was talking to Dale Osbourne (head coach of Dodge City, coached Austin after DJ died and is now at Utah) and Roy Rogers (head coach of Oklahoma, has been with Tulsa and now Austin in the D league). Dale and Roy were both commenting about how good the talent level in the USBL had been. They both said that the midwest teams in the USBL were every bit as good as the D-league teams that they had coached all winter. And that the intensity when those teams played each other was a good as it gets.

Roy said that he had no idea that some of the D-league players that he brought over with him couldn't cut it and he had to move them out. It took him a month or so to realize that he didn't have the horses to win night in/night out and he had to get some better talent. Dale had been in the USBL since 2002 and said many times that there were USBL teams (Oklahoma/Dodge City/Kansas) that could be successful in the D-League.

I've had quite a few coaches in the minor leagues say that the Dodge City teams I had in 2000 and 2003 were as good as any in the minors (Sean Colson, Darrin Hancock, Artie Griffin, Antonio Smith, Kelvin Price, etc).

When you take a look at the USBL as a whole....you had some good and some bad and not much in between....But I would put Dodge City, Kansas and Oklahoma (not to mention Pennsylvania, Atlantic City and others in past years) against any of the minor leagues (keeping in mind that many of the good players were also standouts in the CBA, D league, etc....I only had to pay them 500 a week as opposed to 1000-1500 a week in the winter leagues).

The USBL had a good thing going.....good players....no real competition from the winter leagues...respect of scouts and coaches in the NBA and overseas leagues....And they managed to piss it all away.

I've talked with both Roy and Dale in the past couple of months....They can't believe that the USBL won't be around this year...They looked forward to coming back.

Kind of sad...

not so fast
04-16-2008, 12:16 AM
I sure hope it comes back. I have so much respect for that league. My guy John Jackson's professional career that is now entering his 11th since college, was made by the success he has had in the USBL.

the IBL is doing a dis-service to basketball in the Spring/summer.

turbocamyes
04-16-2008, 09:17 AM
Again, only anecdotal, but here’s a list of where the 241 players in the D-League played in 2006-07 (not counting college):

Winter (Full season):
D-League 67
NBA 24
CBA 11
ABA 8 (can’t vouch for all players due to incomplete stats)
Overseas 22 (possibly more)

Spring/Summer:
USBL 18
IBL 9
WBA 1 (see ABA)
SEBL 1
BSN 9

Summer Leagues:
Vegas 54
Orlando 22
Rocky Mt 20
SPL 3
JBL 1
Ken ProAm 1
Rucker 3

Also, 75 played in the 07-08 NBA preseason, 36 in 06-07. As you can see, twice as many players moved to the USBL than the IBL. And Jamario Moon, now with Toronto, played for Gary in 2006-07 (and only started 9 of 22 games.)

Ken, Steelheads fan
04-16-2008, 10:23 AM
I sure hope it comes back. I have so much respect for that league. My guy John Jackson's professional career that is now entering his 11th since college, was made by the success he has had in the USBL.

the IBL is doing a dis-service to basketball in the Spring/summer.

The owners HAVE to go with a business model that works. The IBL is here and the USBL is gone. I'm not sure who the IBL is doing a dis-service to in Spring/Summer basketball. The WBA?!? Certainly not the USBL. The players?!? What are the players' other stateside options?

psbf
04-16-2008, 12:32 PM
While that does sounds impressive, Ten, I only know of one Roy(Rogers and Dale(Evans) team, who were screen legends. You can't be meaning them.

TEN
04-16-2008, 04:00 PM
Yeah....Unfortunately we are singing "Happy Trails To You!" to the USBL...

TEN
04-16-2008, 04:05 PM
Johnny Jackson! There's a true USBL legend! He got married at halftime of a Cagerz game when they played my Dodge City team. I went out and bought a toaster, wrapped it in purple wrapping paper (Legend colors) and we presented it to him when he was introduced before the game. The look on his face when we gave him a present was priceless! Then after the ceremony at halftime, the fans rained down "chuck a buck" mini basketballs down on the happy couple....then gave them the money from that night's chuck a buck sales!

Great memory from the USBL!

not so fast
04-16-2008, 05:52 PM
Ken please leave me alone about the ibl, We can agree to disagree. My main points are they made no attempt to improve their league in terms of talent or style or content and they had a wonderful opening with no USBL. But they stayed status quo, which is their perogative to be a rec league. Just because they have played 4 seasons does'nt mean they are anything to brag about. Up here on the North shore of Chicago we have a mens league thats been around for 20 years, but I don't call that a credible league either. I am not sure how the ibl differs from it.

Thanks Ten for all of you in the USBL. You guys helped a lot of players further their career, something the ibl will never do!!

TEN
04-16-2008, 07:55 PM
The IBL could have probably had Dodge City, Kansas and Oklahoma this spring if they would have pursued it a little bit. I know that DC was really wanting to find a place to play...but didn't think the IBL would be a good enough league...

rider
04-17-2008, 03:16 PM
The merger discussions have to have a very specific deadline with no exceptions. Focus on getting the teams for next year set ASAP with a set deadline and FOCUS on stabilizing the 8 or 10 franchises now. The league and the teams need the whole year to organize to establish themselves.Don't allow the PBL to flop into the year like last year, either your in or out! Make the announcement of the teams no later than June 1,2008 and build, market , build, market. Give the tems a fighting chance to make it.

Forget the bogus plans of the ABA and the CBA on International play, don't follow the lead of Joe (ABA) and Ricardo (CBA) believing that international play is going to save your bacon,you can't talk about something internationally when your house here is in turmoil. Be creative don't follow those buffoons.


Stablize, Stablize, Stablize

Forget long talks , it's either now or never!

not so fast
04-17-2008, 04:31 PM
this is the point I have been making for a long time, get on with it!!!!

I have a feeling that the leagues are going to go there seperate ways!!!

but we dont have to worry, the ibl will save all of us.

I will say this, years ago i would have thought more was good. But when it comes to so called minor leagues, and teams, less is more!!!

I remember when the CBA was the only game in town! It was such a great league!!How in the world did we ever drop to the standards of the aba and the ibl? God help us!!!

DazedAndAmused
04-17-2008, 04:54 PM
The merger discussions have to have a very specific deadline with no exceptions. Focus on getting the teams for next year set ASAP with a set deadline and FOCUS on stabilizing the 8 or 10 franchises now. The league and the teams need the whole year to organize to establish themselves.Don't allow the PBL to flop into the year like last year, either your in or out! Make the announcement of the teams no later than June 1,2008 and build, market , build, market. Give the tems a fighting chance to make it.

Forget the bogus plans of the ABA and the CBA on International play, don't follow the lead of Joe (ABA) and Ricardo (CBA) believing that international play is going to save your bacon,you can't talk about something internationally when your house here is in turmoil. Be creative don't follow those buffoons.


Stabilize, Stablize, Stablize

Forget long talks , it's either now or never!

I'm actually changing my opinion on this. I for a while believed a merger was a good thing. Some relatively recent (and public) information that is out there now suggests to me that the PBL should not entertain a merger or acquisition (per runninref) or whatever it is.

There are a couple of the eastern CBA teams that would benefit from being in the PBL and perhaps the PBL would benefit from having them. If those teams are interested in making a switch, they should be evaluated on their own merits and consistency of vision. The same thing holds true for the strongest ABA teams.

The two leagues as entities seem to be too far apart philosophically. Personally, I think this is a shame. I'd really like to see a combined league that is run under a PBL model, but called the "CBA" with 20 teams, but I don't think it can happen unless there is an epiphany of some sort.

Frank Mart
05-08-2008, 07:51 AM
I'm actually changing my opinion on this. I for a while believed a merger was a good thing. Some relatively recent (and public) information that is out there now suggests to me that the PBL should not entertain a merger or acquisition (per runninref) or whatever it is.

There are a couple of the eastern CBA teams that would benefit from being in the PBL and perhaps the PBL would benefit from having them. If those teams are interested in making a switch, they should be evaluated on their own merits and consistency of vision. The same thing holds true for the strongest ABA teams.

The two leagues as entities seem to be too far apart philosophically. Personally, I think this is a shame. I'd really like to see a combined league that is run under a PBL model, but called the "CBA" with 20 teams, but I don't think it can happen unless there is an epiphany of some sort.

CBA/PBL merger is increasingly far and for ende the dream of one 20-team super-minor league. I coincide with you DazedAndAmused, PBL should do to add CBA's franchises Pittsburgh Xplosion and Albany Patroons (enclosed East Kentucky Miners, realese Dallas, Jacksonville) and ABA's NE division (Vermont Frost Heaves, Manchester Millrats, Quebec City Kebekwa, Halifax Reinmen, Montreal Royals).

If PBL acquires ABA NE franchises and CBA New York and Pennsylvania franquises PBL could become a very strong regional league with very important cities among if especially in the NE and Canada (low cost in travel).

NEW PREMIER BASKETBALL LEAGUE (16 or 19 teams, 2 or 3 divisions 08/09 season)

North-east Division: (9 or 11)

Reading, Rochester, Buffalo, Vermont (ABA), Manchester (ABA), Quebec (ABA), Halifax (ABA), Montreal (ABA or announced expasion team), Toronto
Pittsburgh, Albany (CBA)??

Mid-east Division: (7 or 8)

Quad City, Rockford, Chicago, Wilmington, Maryland, Arkansas, All-Star team to Thailand (PBL).
East Kentucky (CBA)??

Folded: Dallas and Jacksonville.

Thanks

DazedAndAmused
05-08-2008, 09:29 AM
CBA/PBL merger is increasingly far and for ende the dream of one 20-team super-minor league. I coincide with you DazedAndAmused, PBL should do to add CBA's franchises Pittsburgh Xplosion and Albany Patroons (enclosed East Kentucky Miners, realese Dallas, Jacksonville) and ABA's NE division (Vermont Frost Heaves, Manchester Millrats, Quebec City Kebekwa, Halifax Reinmen, Montreal Royals).

If PBL acquires ABA NE franchises and CBA New York and Pennsylvania franquises PBL could become a very strong regional league with very important cities among if especially in the NE and Canada (low cost in travel).

NEW PREMIER BASKETBALL LEAGUE (16 or 19 teams, 2 or 3 divisions 08/09 season)

North-east Division: (9 or 11)

Reading, Rochester, Buffalo, Vermont (ABA), Manchester (ABA), Quebec (ABA), Halifax (ABA), Montreal (ABA or announced expasion team), Toronto
Pittsburgh, Albany (CBA)??

Mid-east Division: (7 or 8)

Quad City, Rockford, Chicago, Wilmington, Maryland, Arkansas, All-Star team to Thailand (PBL).
East Kentucky (CBA)??

Folded: Dallas and Jacksonville.

Thanks

I like it.

OKCAVS67
05-08-2008, 04:59 PM
CBA/PBL merger is increasingly far and for ende the dream of one 20-team super-minor league. I coincide with you DazedAndAmused, PBL should do to add CBA's franchises Pittsburgh Xplosion and Albany Patroons (enclosed East Kentucky Miners, realese Dallas, Jacksonville) and ABA's NE division (Vermont Frost Heaves, Manchester Millrats, Quebec City Kebekwa, Halifax Reinmen, Montreal Royals).

If PBL acquires ABA NE franchises and CBA New York and Pennsylvania franquises PBL could become a very strong regional league with very important cities among if especially in the NE and Canada (low cost in travel).

NEW PREMIER BASKETBALL LEAGUE (16 or 19 teams, 2 or 3 divisions 08/09 season)

North-east Division: (9 or 11)

Reading, Rochester, Buffalo, Vermont (ABA), Manchester (ABA), Quebec (ABA), Halifax (ABA), Montreal (ABA or announced expasion team), Toronto
Pittsburgh, Albany (CBA)??

Mid-east Division: (7 or 8)

Quad City, Rockford, Chicago, Wilmington, Maryland, Arkansas, All-Star team to Thailand (PBL).
East Kentucky (CBA)??

Folded: Dallas and Jacksonville.

Thanks

Having heard or seen little about a merger for the PBL and CBA, I can see the above teams making a good league, but please, lets not forget the Lawton/Ft. Sill Cavalry - Current CBA Champs. I know one can't please everyone when there is a merger that takes place, but at least we have solid ownership and a half decent place to play. Besides, Lawton is only about 6 hours away from Little Rock Arkansas.

I can see it like this?

North-east Division: (9 or 11)

Reading, Rochester, Buffalo, Vermont (ABA), Manchester (ABA), Quebec (ABA), Halifax (ABA), Montreal (ABA or announced expasion team), Toronto
Pittsburgh (CBA), Albany (CBA)??

Mid-east Division: (7 or 8)

Quad City, Rockford, Chicago, Wilmington, Maryland, Arkansas,
East Kentucky (CBA)??
Lawton/Ft. Sill (CBA)

Just my thoughts.

psbf
05-08-2008, 05:48 PM
confusing Lawton-Ft. Sill and Oklahoma in name, I don't see how anyone can leave the Cavaliers out of the alignment!
Also, with so many teams in the Northeast, I would suggest breaking down the divisions, like they do in soccer's PDL amateur Division. Maybe create a Canadien Division, although there are only three teams(Montreal, Quebec and Halifax-maybe Toronto too(I think I saw them mentioned).
Aside from them, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany, Pgh, East Ky would be in the Northeast.
Central; Chicago, Lawton Ft. Sill, Arkansas and RGV(another team that I don't recall being mentioned). I guess I would add Augusta to this Div..
Yakima is still in question, though. I'm sorry if there is a team or teams that I may be forgetting.

DazedAndAmused
05-08-2008, 07:44 PM
Having heard or seen little about a merger for the PBL and CBA, I can see the above teams making a good league, but please, lets not forget the Lawton/Ft. Sill Cavalry - Current CBA Champs. I know one can't please everyone when there is a merger that takes place, but at least we have solid ownership and a half decent place to play. Besides, Lawton is only about 6 hours away from Little Rock Arkansas.

I can see it like this?

North-east Division: (9 or 11)

Reading, Rochester, Buffalo, Vermont (ABA), Manchester (ABA), Quebec (ABA), Halifax (ABA), Montreal (ABA or announced expasion team), Toronto
Pittsburgh (CBA), Albany (CBA)??

Mid-east Division: (7 or 8)

Quad City, Rockford, Chicago, Wilmington, Maryland, Arkansas,
East Kentucky (CBA)??
Lawton/Ft. Sill (CBA)

Just my thoughts.

This looks good too. You're right....Lawton should not be left off this list.