Frost over the eyes.

[LightningMan]

Is it just me, or is the reaction of most of the Frost Heaves fans visiting here different than fans of other ABA teams? Well, to be fair, I don't see many fans from current members of the ABA that aren't Frost Heavers. But back when "my" team was in the ABA and I came here and saw what was being said about the league and (most importantly) verifying a lot of it myself, I wasn't "rah rah" about the ABA and didn't let my being a fan of my team blind me to the league's problems.

While I would be glad "my" team won a championship, I would certainly want my league to be recognized as something other than a farce, and I certainly wouldn't want to be in a league that leads the world in expansion teams and defunct franchises every year.

But that's probably just me.

[Dogriver]

you're right, LightningMan, it's just you.

[DazedAndAmused]

LightningMan, it's just you......


....and everybody else who really understands minor league basketball.

[TEN]

But the trophy will make a great doorstop....oh wait....that is if Alex went out and bought one this year...

[tbayz1]

You're not alone LightningMan

I'm glad Buffalo will finally have a team in a real league, the PBL

[Pounder]

What are we talking about? 5 Heaves fans, maybe more, 3 or 4 of whom seem blind to a certain series of facts?

While you may have a point, let me remind you of at least two things:

(1) scientific samples only become statistically significant at about 30 specimens

(2) it's easier to get personal on a message board than in person

You can't always convert the deluded.

Of course, the deluded will never, NEVER find satisfaction with the majority opinion on this board (like, WIN A REAL LEAGUE!). We all have to deal.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Heaves fans deserve the right to enjoy the title.

They supported the team, they followed the team, and the team gave them what they paid for - entertainment, a great atmosphere, and good basketball.

The multiple missteps of Clueless Joe's league are not the responsibility of any Heaves fan; even if everything A1 alleges were true about Alex, the fans on this board aren't to blame.

To take it a step further - imagine the comments here had the Heaves LOST the game. Aside from the giddiness of A1 to that big twist at the end of Alex's book, there would be people here bashing the Heaves as not good enough to win a rec league title (or something like that).

They did what they had to do. Vermont won, and their fans are happy.

Good for them.

Now, hopefully the franchise will move to a more professional league, worthy of their fans' pride and passion.

[misenern]

I think it's only one or two who stick out.

It's a nice balance between obsessive hate for the ABA, and over-the-top love of the Frost Heaves.

For the record I think the Heaves are a great organization, and I think it takes a pretty big leap to assume that Alex Wolfe is a partner with Joe Newman in a plot to take down capitalism. But, the ABA is a joke league and I agree that winning in the ABA doesn't really say too much.

Somehow the ABA works in Vermont. I am not so sure it could work anywhere else.

[DazedAndAmused]

I think it's only one or two who stick out.

It's a nice balance between obsessive hate for the ABA, and over-the-top love of the Frost Heaves.

For the record I think the Heaves are a great organization, and I think it takes a pretty big leap to assume that Alex Wolfe is a partner with Joe Newman in a plot to take down capitalism. But, the ABA is a joke league and I agree that winning in the ABA doesn't really say too much.

Somehow the ABA works in Vermont. I am not so sure it could work anywhere else.

It's that over the top love that will make them an even better organization in a legitimate league. I hope it happens. The fans shouldn't have to fight the perception of the league.

[Paul S]

Full credit to Vermont.

They have a great team and the home games (especially Barre) are ginning up the best atmosphere in the league. The fans deserve the victory.

My only downside is they are living in a house of mirrors where all they see is themselves and success. Too many Frost Heave fans have this "we are great and if the rest of the league bites, its not my problem" attitude. This can only come back to haunt you.

Over the next couple of years the fans of Vermont are going to grow tired of things like Corning not showing up, Jersey Express tumbling out of an SUV with 5 players, mis-matching uniforms, Syracuse not showing up, Manchester playing another game against the Heaves.

Your owner Alex has let too many other people down, he is propping up this whole facade, his participation I think started off as a great thing and has morphed into a beast.

Again enjoy your victory. But remember, your simply like the strongest swimmer in the race against people with no arms and legs. You and your fans deserve better.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

Is it just me, or is the reaction of most of the Frost Heaves fans visiting here different than fans of other ABA teams? Well, to be fair, I don't see many fans from current members of the ABA that aren't Frost Heavers. But back when "my" team was in the ABA and I came here and saw what was being said about the league and (most importantly) verifying a lot of it myself, I wasn't "rah rah" about the ABA and didn't let my being a fan of my team blind me to the league's problems.

While I would be glad "my" team won a championship, I would certainly want my league to be recognized as something other than a farce, and I certainly wouldn't want to be in a league that leads the world in expansion teams and defunct franchises every year.

But that's probably just me.

You are correct LightningMan, it "really" is just you. Bitterness is not becoming

[Frost Heaves Fan]

Heaves fans deserve the right to enjoy the title.

They supported the team, they followed the team, and the team gave them what they paid for - entertainment, a great atmosphere, and good basketball.

The multiple missteps of Clueless Joe's league are not the responsibility of any Heaves fan; even if everything A1 alleges were true about Alex, the fans on this board aren't to blame.

To take it a step further - imagine the comments here had the Heaves LOST the game. Aside from the giddiness of A1 to that big twist at the end of Alex's book, there would be people here bashing the Heaves as not good enough to win a rec league title (or something like that).

They did what they had to do. Vermont won, and their fans are happy.

Good for them.

Now, hopefully the franchise will move to a more professional league, worthy of their fans' pride and passion.

ABA RW&B, thanks. I agree with all of this. Even the last statement. The only problem (like I have mentioned 1 million times before) is the Alex does not want to leave Barre and the court is too small. Frost Heaves are Barre and Barre are the Frost Heaves. Oh, I almost forgot. WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS TIMES 2!!!!!!!!!

[Paul S]

Back to Back!!!!!

Ya thats great. Your the only real team in the league. Its like if Joe started up the American Hockey Association and convinced the NY Islanders to join and the other 15 teams were beer league guys who had a german sheppard in net and mismatched uniforms.................the NY Islanders would win the "championship". Wouldn't mean much but they'd win.

The difference is Islander fans aren't idiots who would be fooled by this, they'd kick up a fuss and Charlie Wang would leave the league.

[Paul S]

You are right I wish I had a team. Providence College is good, the Boston Celtics are right up the road. But what we DON'T need is an ABA-ish team around here in little Rhody.......if someone wants to operate a team like the Rainmen, the Frost Heaves or a team in the CBA, PBL or D-League then I'll go.

But an ABA-ish team? No, I wouldn't want that.

This is the big paradox for you Frost Heaves apologists. You sound like Joe. Are you that country that you can't see when the league is a dump?

I think Joe's initial idea of a league is great, but he's run it into the ground. This isn't a "league", its a borderline ponzi scheme in my opinion.

For all you bumpkins, PONZI was the guy credited with running the first large scale pyramid scheme and its now known as a PONZI scheme.

[rams80]

ABA RW&B, thanks. I agree with all of this. Even the last statement. The only problem (like I have mentioned 1 million times before) is the Alex does not want to leave Barre and the court is too small. Frost Heaves are Barre and Barre are the Frost Heaves. Oh, I almost forgot. WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS TIMES 2!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations. Did Alex have to buy the trophy again?

[robster2001]

Paul S, at least I have a team. Do you feel good about running down other teams from your recliner, hoping that you had a team.

That's pathetic, and I hope a moderator takes notice of it.

[Alumni96]

That's pathetic, and I hope a moderator takes notice of it.
Are you kidding? For what? No curses, racial epithets, or personal attacks are involved. Paul S handled it and his post is closer to needing moderation than the other guys.

[robster2001]

What value did it add to the conversation? None.

It's schoolyard taunting. And about the only good thing I can think of is that there's no way that's representative of real Frost Heaves fans.

[LightningMan]

You are correct LightningMan, it "really" is just you. Bitterness is not becoming
Neither is mind reading. I have nothing to be bitter about.

[LightningMan]

But remember, you're simply like the strongest swimmer in the race against people with no arms and legs.
Again, my post was not a knock on any VFH fan being happy they won or the management of the VFH or their fans in general. It was wondering why some VFH fans are resistant at perceiving / acknowledging what Paul S. is talking about.

[formerlyknownasfells]

Guys, can we please get back on topic?

[The Sweeper]

Heaves play by play man speaks out on the ABA

From a Times Argus article...

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080401/SPORTS/804010379/1004/SPORTS

Speaking of "leagues" … somebody should also blow up the ABA in its current form, and rebuild it from the ground up.

The concept is sound … but they need to get rid of the CEO/Founder Joe Newman. (Who all-of-a-sudden instituted video replay at the end of the fiasco that was the SanDiego/Manchester semi-final … then had to "bargain" with the Wildcats to get them off the bus to play overtime!).

As former NBA big man and current scout, Earl Cureton, told me Saturday night, "I've never seen anything like it."

[BBallFan - Long Island]

Sure you've seen shenanigans similar to the newly instituted video replays!

It's called the semi-final game between the old USSR and USA in the 1972 Olympics when Olympic officials came out of the stands to make the officials keep instituting a replay of the last two seconds until the USSR won the game.

[PaulD]

Why are there attacks on Alex on these boards?

He's made a good business and constructed an excellent team.

He's connected with fans in Vermont and beyond.

I think it would be great if he would write a book, why people attack him at the possibilty of writing a book I can't understand.

The ABA is not perfect but I was in Quebec this weekend and there are several teams that play at a professional level. To say they have a semi pro league is unfair.

It's not Alex's fault that so many teams go broke. He has no control over that, blame Joe.

[preeths]

It's not Alex's fault that so many teams go broke. He has no control over that, blame Joe.

Most do. I don't understand the criticisms of Mr. Wolff in this regard, either. Guilt by association, I guess.

[DazedAndAmused]

Most do. I don't understand the criticisms of Mr. Wolff in this regard, either. Guilt by association, I guess.

only way to solve this is by de-association.

[Dogriver]

"My name is Dogriver and I'm a Frost Heaves fan".....whew, glad I got over that admission. I freely admit to that, realizing some will think I'm also happy to play in what's been referred to a "rec-league". Since this is the only league in town and its a very small town, we do with what we have.

I'm one of three fans who traveled to every away game this year so we've been able to actually see other teams, other operations, other fan bases (or lack thereof)...I assume other posters have firsthand knowledge and observations, too.

I felt terrible for the Kebs who put on a great event this past weekend with so few fans. I felt bad for the Jersey Express when more VT fans showed up than Jersey fans. I felt bad when we played in Boston and none of the less than 30 Boston fans didn't even applauded their own players. I felt bad that Corning folded so quickly (and, yes, Coach Will swore in a team huddle). I felt bad when Boston showed up in VT for a late season game with 6 players including one who looked like he was 15. This in no way to run a team or a league and someone needs to be held accountable. I agree with most of the posters that playing in the ABA can diminish the accomplishments of a few.

I would be pleased to see VT leave the ABA and join another, more stable league or be part of a new league composed of the ABA teams from the northeast and eastern provinces. The challenge for us in leaving the ABA is court size and the well-known and respected commitment Alex has to the fans of both Burlington and Barre to play in our older arenas. We have limited choices in Vermont, which may be part of the aura of what we've accomplished.

Until, and if, something else happens, I'll continue to ring the bell and hold up our signs for the Heaves.

What we lose in league reputation, we make up in personal connections with players like having them over for winter barbecues, snow mobiling and just being able to call one another friends.

Thanks for listening this infrequent poster - Go Heaves!

[Paul S]

Dogriver - For a team to have a fan that goes to ALL away games is impressive. Mad props to you. This is exactly the type of vision Joe had when he started the league, a good team, great fans and a quality product.

Our criticism of the ABA isn't an Anti-Vermont spiel (ok maybe one guy) but I can say that I think Vermont is a quality team.

Problem is the Vermont Frost Heaves is like the very profitable 24 hour liquor store that is set up next to an AA meeting. Its success has led to other knock-on problems.

I've been critical of Alex (sorry ALex) and the Heaves. But overall I wish that Providence had a Vermont Frost Heaves. That Boston game was so lowly attended because that gym was in a very rough part of town, thing was, when the Blizzard moved to a safer university arena, the fans didn't exactly pour in.

I really hope it works for the ABA and the Frost Heaves. Again, Joes core idea in my opinion is good. The man has created something great, but in my opinion has ran it into the ground, 7 years in a row.

[misenern]

"My name is Dogriver and I'm a Frost Heaves fan".....whew, glad I got over that admission. I freely admit to that, realizing some will think I'm also happy to play in what's been referred to a "rec-league". Since this is the only league in town and its a very small town, we do with what we have.

I'm one of three fans who traveled to every away game this year so we've been able to actually see other teams, other operations, other fan bases (or lack thereof)...I assume other posters have firsthand knowledge and observations, too.

That would have been quite interesting. What operations impressed you? Which ones were the worst?

I felt terrible for the Kebs who put on a great event this past weekend with so few fans. I felt bad for the Jersey Express when more VT fans showed up than Jersey fans. I felt bad when we played in Boston and none of the less than 30 Boston fans didn't even applauded their own players. I felt bad that Corning folded so quickly (and, yes, Coach Will swore in a team huddle). I felt bad when Boston showed up in VT for a late season game with 6 players including one who looked like he was 15. This in no way to run a team or a league and someone needs to be held accountable. I agree with most of the posters that playing in the ABA can diminish the accomplishments of a few.

The Kebs are a good organization; the event just isn't suited to a neutral site. The Kebs actually draw fairly well, if Quebec is playing...

I would be pleased to see VT leave the ABA and join another, more stable league or be part of a new league composed of the ABA teams from the northeast and eastern provinces. The challenge for us in leaving the ABA is court size and the well-known and respected commitment Alex has to the fans of both Burlington and Barre to play in our older arenas. We have limited choices in Vermont, which may be part of the aura of what we've accomplished.

The ABA works in Vermont, simple as that. You guys have a court that can only work in the ABA. The press doesn't care about the ABA, and it seems the fans don't either. It didn't work that way in Halifax, but it works in Vermont.

[rams80]

The ABA works in Vermont, simple as that. You guys have a court that can only work in the ABA. The press doesn't care about the ABA, and it seems the fans don't either. It didn't work that way in Halifax, but it works in Vermont.

For what it's worth...IMO if Vermont really wanted to join the PBL or CBA, an accommodation would be made for them.

[Sam Hill]

Why are there attacks on Alex on these boards?

Because he made a1sports mad once.