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View Full Version : PBL expansion talk? Is it too soon?


SignGuyDino
03-24-2008, 09:36 AM
This would include expansion teams and teams fleeing other leagues.

bdaly
03-24-2008, 10:07 AM
The PBL has done exactly what it needed to do this year--prove it's ability to manage and play its games. I'm sure it was extremely costly, but they now have credibility. I'd expect a handful of PBL teams to go away (or find new ownership), and they can bring in expansion teams or strong ABA teams that are looking for a little stability. Now they have time to work with and a track record, so it'll be easier to elevate standards.

This year wasn't perfect, nor would I expect it to be given minor league basketball's terrible track record, but it was a critical step in the right direction. (And, from following the ABA the last two years, a wonderful breath of fresh air.) As I hoped and people are claiming will happen, I think it's critical that the PBL and CBA come together. I think there's room for a strong, independent league, but it has to have a footprint that does a better job of minimizing travel.

D-Sell
03-25-2008, 06:10 AM
I think this fellow is on to something. As they said when recording artists came together for the We Are The World video "check your egos at the door". I think we all should realize that we are in the minor leagues trying to get better and give our respective communities good and competitive entertainment at a valued price. I also believe that our owners should see some financial benefits as well. Can we all come together for the good of the game and at least see if it works trying togetherness.


D-Sell

DazedAndAmused
03-25-2008, 08:07 AM
DSell, I'm with ya, but how do you rectify the difference in# of games played between the leagues. I see that as the biggest hurdle. 50+ is way too many games for minor league ball. I could see going as high as 24 to 30, but if you go beyond that you either have to lengthen the season too much or you give up all weekend games, which is critical. I'd like to see a combined league that plays say 26 regular season games, but that may be too much change for the CBA to swallow.

bdaly
03-25-2008, 10:00 AM
Yes, compromise is the answer. The CBA plays too many games and the PBL may play too few. Judging by the crowds in the CBA, I'd imagine many owners would be up for trimming the schedule and eliminating some poor drawing (and unprofitable) weekday games. I think the PBL was on to something with having a smaller schedule that would allow every game to be an event and really matter. But, perhaps it being as light as it was this year was due to the limited time they had to put this season together. I think it's workable.

panchess
03-25-2008, 10:20 AM
..it should be longer than the college season, in my opinion. 36 games would do the trick, and has been the rumored amount by a few people on this board.

While the PBL did have some problems and a couple weeknight games, the general idea that as high a percentage of the games as possible should be on the weekend is a good one.

For what its worth, I think the season (including the playoffs) should end when March Madness starts. Not only do you start losing a lot of players to Europe and South America, people focus on college basketball during the NCAA tournament and not the pros. Start Thanksgiving weekend, end the last day of February, with playoffs in early March. There is my template.

LightningMan
03-25-2008, 10:38 AM
..it should be longer than the college season, in my opinion. 36 games would do the trick, and has been the rumored amount by a few people on this board.

While the PBL did have some problems and a couple weeknight games, the general idea that as high a percentage of the games as possible should be on the weekend is a good one.

For what its worth, I think the season (including the playoffs) should end when March Madness starts. Not only do you start losing a lot of players to Europe and South America, people focus on college basketball during the NCAA tournament and not the pros. Start Thanksgiving weekend, end the last day of February, with playoffs in early March. There is my template.
I like the idea of this, although 36 might be too much. My idea of how to create a schedule would be half the other division one road game, the other half of the other division one home game, and two home games and road games against division foes. That would for a ten team PBL add up to 26. For a twelve team PBL, that would be 32. And for an eight team PBL it would be 20.

Pounder
03-25-2008, 10:47 AM
Personal opinion- tailor a schedule to the number and proximity of teams. Let conditions determine the number of games.

Wait to see if the merger happens, then where, then worry about how many.

Am I too pragmatic for the audience?

LightningMan
03-25-2008, 10:54 AM
Personal opinion- tailor a schedule to the number and proximity of teams. Let conditions determine the number of games.

Wait to see if the merger happens, then where, then worry about how many.

Am I too pragmatic for the audience?
Not at all. That's what you have to do. Thing is, we're talking theories right now, since we can't know if Dallas or Jacksonville will fold outright or simply move to Buffalo and if teams from anywhere else are coming on board.

bdaly
03-25-2008, 11:05 AM
For what its worth, I think the season (including the playoffs) should end when March Madness starts. Not only do you start losing a lot of players to Europe and South America, people focus on college basketball during the NCAA tournament and not the pros. Start Thanksgiving weekend, end the last day of February, with playoffs in early March. There is my template.
While ending by March Madness isn't a bad idea, playing in December tends to be a bad time for attendance too. The only time the Razorsharks have been able to get weekend evening dates was during December, only because the other tenants know how bad December is for attendance. The NLL tried playing in December for a short while before backing away from it. People are at the malls and holiday parties. So I'm not sure that December is the "lesser evil" for attendance. I guess you pick your poison--short season, or longer season while playing through one of those times.

LightningMan
03-25-2008, 11:25 AM
While ending by March Madness isn't a bad idea, playing in December tends to be a bad time for attendance too. The only time the Razorsharks have been able to get weekend evening dates was during December, only because the other tenants know how bad December is for attendance. The NLL tried playing in December for a short while before backing away from it. People are at the malls and holiday parties. So I'm not sure that December is the "lesser evil" for attendance. I guess you pick your poison--short season, or longer season while playing through one of those times.
If that is the case, that would be the time to do your Showcase games, when you're not really depriving teams of a home gate.

DazedAndAmused
03-25-2008, 12:48 PM
Let's assume some sort of joining of forces in the PBL and CBA, whether it be merger, or simply teams peeling off to join one or the other, and assume it is a 16 team league. You could go 3 games per divisional team (to keep travel costs down) and 1 game per non divisional...a 29 game season + playoffs. If you start the first week of December, you can still get most games on weekends. 24 to 30 I believe strongly is the right "number," whether you have 10, 12, or 16 teams.

Two more +'s to the Dec start:

1. Don't lose options on players that don't want to wait til Jan.
2. Take advantage of merchandising in the holiday season.

BUT, do NOT play many games on weekdays.

panchess
03-28-2008, 11:35 AM
..I would start with a splash, either Thanksgiving weekend or the weekend before (post-holiday weekends seem to be very good for attendance), getting two or three games on each of those weekends to establish the season and get people into it.

You can't really start any earlier if the NBA cuts affect your access to players.

As for early and middle December, stick to weekends. Then have a burst of games on the Christmas-New Year's week when people are normally off and looking for things to do.

I like the PBL and D-League Showcases, and having one during one of the December weekends might not be a bad idea.

The problem I have with one home and road game for out-of-division games is the high marginal cost. The CBA was a lot more efficient this season with air travel, so most of the flight games were two game series and not just one. If you're flying there anyway, you might as well get two games instead of one.

With 16 teams, you could have two conferences, and limited or no inter-conference play until the playoffs.

Aaronhere
03-28-2008, 02:05 PM
Honestly, what PBL franchises could merge with the CBA to make it happen? I just wish the ABA teams would bail and merge with the PBL and CBA to make a viable minor league. There have to be 14-16 franchises with realistic chances. Of course, I could see the D-League going to 30 franchises, and killing off all these leagues, or the D-League going to 30, and a "second-tier" league of 15 teams formed (CBA) to serve as another feeder system. Right now, it looks like indoor football - the AFL (NBA), the AF2 (D-League), AIFA (CBA), CIFL (PBL), UIF/Intense League (IBL) and NIFL (ABA).

bomp
03-31-2008, 09:31 AM
There is my template.

That is THE problem. No template can be agreed on so you have this mess of leagues. CBA has the history but but its business model works almost
nowhere now. I don't have a horse in this race but it seems that Doyle and the Rochester boys may be a better bet and yes, no merger announcement right away.

But their egos are bigger than their bank accounts!