From Egg McMuffins to Egg Rolls.......

[a1sports]

SO what did Joe and ALex And Alex's Investor and a few others talk about for 2 hours at " Windstar Chineese Restaurant" in Barre over the weekend?

MAybe they worked out another script on what to say to teams ( the few that are still in the ABA) and why they should remain in the ABA and all the "new" things that will be place and all the great opportunities that they are working on.

so what was the last item that was talked about>? Alex as commissioner and Joe, stepping aside, yes yes...and getting investor to put money into the ABA, go ahead, Im listening.,........LOL

Shameful

[Sam Hill]

http://www.gincalamari.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/1979-stalker-fra-01.jpg

[Frost Heaves Fan]

SO what did Joe and ALex And Alex's Investor and a few others talk about for 2 hours at " Windstar Chineese Restaurant" in Barre over the weekend?

MAybe they worked out another script on what to say to teams ( the few that are still in the ABA) and why they should remain in the ABA and all the "new" things that will be place and all the great opportunities that they are working on.

so what was the last item that was talked about>? Alex as commissioner and Joe, stepping aside, yes yes...and getting investor to put money into the ABA, go ahead, Im listening.,........LOL

Shameful

a1sports, it would be nice to believe your little stalking adventure, but there is no "Windstar Chineese Restaurant" in Barre or anywhere close to Barre or maybe even in VT. So how true is the rest of your story.

I live in Barre so I would know.

[Paul S]

Maybe you've heard of the Winstar Chinese Restaurant?

Google has..............

Winstar Chinese Restaurant Map .09 miles
(802) 476-7793
20 S Main St, Barre, VT 05641


I would imagine A1 mis-typed it, just like he mis-typed the word 'Chinese'. I have no idea who has eaten there or if Joe, Alex and someone else have ever been in either. Just typed it into google, thats all.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

Maybe you've heard of the Winstar Chinese Restaurant?

Google has..............

Winstar Chinese Restaurant Map .09 miles
(802) 476-7793
20 S Main St, Barre, VT 05641


I would imagine A1 mis-typed it, just like he mis-typed the word 'Chinese'. I have no idea who has eaten there or if Joe, Alex and someone else have ever been in either. Just typed it into google, thats all.

That place went out of business about about 1 year ago. Do you think that they were eating in the vacant building? The sign is still up, but no one is home. I think a1 just googled to find a restaurant that was local to Barre. Unfortunately he choose the wrong one. Sorry a1. You should have chosen McDonalds, since every town has one of those.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

Maybe you've heard of the Winstar Chinese Restaurant?

Google has..............

Winstar Chinese Restaurant Map .09 miles
(802) 476-7793
20 S Main St, Barre, VT 05641


I would imagine A1 mis-typed it, just like he mis-typed the word 'Chinese'. I have no idea who has eaten there or if Joe, Alex and someone else have ever been in either. Just typed it into google, thats all.

" Paul or anyone else", I know that you just want to believe a1 so I challenge you to call that phone number listed above. You will see that they are out of business.


Sorry a1 try again. I can give you some local restaurant names so you can craft another story. How about: Soups and Greens, or Sean and Nora's or Mr Z's or Del's. These are a few of the real restaurant's in Barre.

[Sam Hill]

SO what did Joe and ALex And Alex's Investor and a few others talk about for 2 hours at " Windstar Chineese Restaurant" in Barre over the weekend?

Why the power was off and why a waiter never came over to their table?

[formerlyknownasfells]

" Paul or anyone else", I know that you just want to believe a1 so I challenge you to call that phone number listed above. You will see that they are out of business.


Sorry a1 try again. I can give you some local restaurant names so you can craft another story. How about: Soups and Greens, or Sean and Nora's or Mr Z's or Del's. These are a few of the real restaurant's in Barre.

What about the place that moved in to where Finkerman's used to be? That would be plausible.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

Why the power was off and why a waiter never came over to their table?

This whole story just confirms what I originally thought about a1. I bet you that he has never even seen a live basketball game.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

What about the place that moved in to where Finkerman's used to be? That would be plausible.

Come on Fells, that place is called Ariel's and it is in Montpelier and it serves Continental food. Not chinese food. You guys will do anything to support a1.

How about Joe's bar and grill in Westchester New York, maybe that is where they were meeting!!:confused:

[formerlyknownasfells]

Come on Fells, that place is called Ariel's and it is in Montpelier and it serves Continental food. Not chinese food. You guys will do anything to support a1.

How about Joe's bar and grill in Westchester New York, maybe that is where they were meeting!!:confused:

Hey, I only passed by the place once and couldn't remember the name of it. Call it a BAD attempt at a joke..........

[panchess]

..whatever the name of the place was, Joe wasn't picking up the tab!

[TheStandard]

Could it be that the restaurant is :

Chinatown on 306 N. Main

Ming Moon Buffet on 1400 US Route 302

Or

China Place/Dragon Star on 435 N. Main

Bamboo Gardens 115 S. Main

[Frost Heaves Fan]

Could it be that the restaurant is :

Chinatown on 306 N. Main

Ming Moon Buffet on 1400 US Route 302

Or

China Place/Dragon Star on 435 N. Main

Bamboo Gardens 115 S. Main

Standard, of course it could have been any of those retaurants. But that is not the point. The point is that a1 just got caught. a1 was making up a story to further drag Alex through the gutter and he looked on the internet for the name of a "real" restaurant in Barre and I called him on it. The restaurant is not in existance and also the story about this meeting is not in exisitance.

Do you get it now!!

[TheStandard]

oh i got it but maybe his source said a chinese restaurant and a1 looked up one and found that one instead.

I talked to Joe today, i think he's on meds. I swear.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

I talked to Joe today

About what? Do you call him, or is he calling you????

Have you offered to bring affordable family entertainment to PR for him?

[williamhughes11]

I'd like to think that The Standard wouldn't insult Puerto Rico by offering to bring the ABA to the island, unless Joe wants to learn how a real league (BSN) is supposed to berun.

[DazedAndAmused]

I may have misunderstood, but did a1 actually say he was there? I took it to mean that his "deep throat" gave him this tidbit, not that he was actually there...in which case the name of restaurant may be a little less meaningful.

Anyhow, I'm back to the theory of a1=alex....a split literary personality. Don't they "both" have books coming out? I'm just sayin.........

[Sam Hill]

About what? Do you call him, or is he calling you????

And was a1 listening in?

[a1sports]

The person that gave me the info is inside the Vermont organizarion. They told me a chinese place in Barre, they told me what the meeting with Joe and all those people was probably about, since they werent invited. They said that Joe and Alex and his investors were talking about ALex getting invloved in the rec league ABA in some capacity without compromising his SI job.

They have given me plenty of great info. From Mrs. Alex taking a stand not to leave the ABA ( yes Mrs ALex ) to conference calls with other ABA teams.

Nothing changes IMO, those two deserve each other, one takes advantage of owners at 10K a pop, the other takes advantage of fans and the other owners to get what he wants.

Alex perpetuates the ABA scam, IMO. ( and at this pioint, now alot of others think the same thing)

SHameful

[Sam Hill]

one takes advantage of owners at 10K a pop, the other takes advantage of fans and the other owners to get what he wants.


And a third is the One Righteous Man in the whole scenario, making the world a better place one thread at a time.

[TheStandard]

About what? Do you call him, or is he calling you????

Have you offered to bring affordable family entertainment to PR for him?

The BSN/Puerto Rican Basketball Federation would never allow an ABA team to set foot. As of now they will only grant it to the P league, the D league and the C league(They have been there before from 83-84) and for that to happen the league has to be come a member of the federation, the CBA had the distinguishable of being part of the Puerto Rican Federation and USA Basketball.

Only 10k Investment I would do is paying the CBA player buyout fee for a player thats worth it in the CBA.

I talked to Joe in regards of a Former team, thats all. Good convo, I swear its the meds.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

The BSN/Puerto Rican Basketball Federation would never allow an ABA team to set foot. As of now they will only grant it to the P league, the D league and the C league(They have been there before from 83-84) and for that to happen the league has to be come a member of the federation, the CBA had the distinguishable of being part of the Puerto Rican Federation and USA Basketball.

Only 10k Investment I would do is paying the CBA player buyout fee for a player thats worth it in the CBA.

I talked to Joe in regards of a Former team, thats all. Good convo, I swear its the meds.
Standard, I never considered for a second that you would bring the plague of the ABA upon Puerto Rico.

I was just curious what prompted the phone call.

Also, did you and Joe discuss any 'ABA-ish' issues?

[TheStandard]

Standard, I never considered for a second that you would bring the plague of the ABA upon Puerto Rico.

I was just curious what prompted the phone call.

Also, did you and Joe discuss any 'ABA-ish' issues?

I wanted to talk to him about the real reason about Colours tv and also about the ABAish antics from the teams in the league. Lots of throwing under the bus but its not only Joe, its both ways. Also a warning about that crook Felix from Jacksonville. He makes Joe look like St. Paul

[Alumni96]

The person that gave me the info is inside the Vermont organizarion. They told me a chinese place in Barre, they told me what the meeting with Joe and all those people was probably about, since they werent invited. They said that Joe and Alex and his investors were talking about ALex getting invloved in the rec league ABA in some capacity without compromising his SI job.

They have given me plenty of great info. From Mrs. Alex taking a stand not to leave the ABA ( yes Mrs ALex ) to conference calls with other ABA teams.

Nothing changes IMO, those two deserve each other, one takes advantage of owners at 10K a pop, the other takes advantage of fans and the other owners to get what he wants.

Alex perpetuates the ABA scam, IMO. ( and at this pioint, now alot of others think the same thing)

SHameful

So you took a few generic statements which you have no idea of the validity of and added your own specifics to craft a story to suit your needs. Of course this is to try to make your info more convincing. I have to admit you are good at what you do. You should work for a tabloid.

What I find ironic is you call others shameful. Pretending to be someone else on a telephone call and making up stories to smear someone's name, how noble you are.

I know the folding of the ABA makes a great ending of your book. Actively trying to bring it down seems kind of self serving don't you think?

[Pounder]

a1 gets good information- a good percentage of the time.

It now sounds more logical to me that a1 fears Alex will do better with his book than a1 with his, simply because of the names, SI, what have you. Um, that's a foregone conclusion. Somewhere, there might be a publisher (or more) with an interesting story or two.

That doesn't change my conclusions that Joe is either bad or completely clueless, and Alex is helping perpetuate this wreck. The bottom line is more important than who had Dim Sum and when.

[tbayz1]

What happened to Vermont going to the CBA?

[a1sports]

As of now...Vermont isnt going anywhere. Looks like Alex and JOJO have teamed up...

[Paul S]

a1 gets good information- a good percentage of the time.

It now sounds more logical to me that a1 fears Alex will do better with his book than a1 with his, simply because of the names, SI, what have you. Um, that's a foregone conclusion. Somewhere, there might be a publisher (or more) with an interesting story or two.

That doesn't change my conclusions that Joe is either bad or completely clueless, and Alex is helping perpetuate this wreck. The bottom line is more important than who had Dim Sum and when.

That sums it up really well. A1 has good info, Alex Wolff is assisting in the downfall and Joe is either an idiot or dangerous idiot. Whether or the Moo Goo Gai Pan was at the Winstar or Joes' sisters casino in Reno matters not.

[bomp]

Maybe you've heard of the Winstar Chinese Restaurant?

Google has..............

Winstar Chinese Restaurant Map .09 miles
(802) 476-7793
20 S Main St, Barre, VT 05641


I would imagine A1 mis-typed it, just like he mis-typed the word 'Chinese'. I have no idea who has eaten there or if Joe, Alex and someone else have ever been in either. Just typed it into google, thats all.

Considering this 'leaque' has a Chinese team in California last saeson and in Singapore this season that does play ONLY at home.....You know this all just a story that Chuck wrote and we are all characters in his novel.

None of this real. It must be all that funny stuff I smoked in college 30 years ago and I am in Chuck's novel cause this can't really be all happening! :D ;)

[Frost Heaves Fan]

As of now...Vermont isnt going anywhere. Looks like Alex and JOJO have teamed up...

When I talked with Joe N at the All -Star game he told me that a1 from OSC was going to invest big money in the ABA and bring back the Utica Wreckers.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

That sums it up really well. A1 has good info, Alex Wolff is assisting in the downfall and Joe is either an idiot or dangerous idiot. Whether or the Moo Goo Gai Pan was at the Winstar or Joes' sisters casino in Reno matters not.

Paul S, you still don't get it, do you? My point was that a1 was making up a restaurant that is no longer in business, so how are we supposed to believe that the rest of the story. I don't believe one bit of what is said. You can believe what you want.

[bomp]

When I talked with Joe N at the All -Star game he told me that a1 from OSC was going to invest big money in the ABA and bring back the Utica Wreckers.

Clark the investor from Utica just bought the USL-1 Rochester Rhinos from a bank and fired the coach. Go UTICA!!! :mrgreen:

In the old days, I would just get the munchies, not get delusions like you guys!. ;) :D

[a1sports]

FRsot heaves fan, I dont need you to ok what I post, I dont need you to believe what I post. I can see you are also hypnotized by ALex and that is fine. But dont insult anyone elses inteligence because you fail to see the con in all of this. I Have enough info to show that ALex is self serving as I have stated at the expense of others, no different than Joe. Time will show who is right and who is wrong, so just sit tight and enjoy the heaves rec league championship win.

Its a shame that these two have colaborated, but I do believe I have enough quotes from many people and info to publish and expose this con.

ALex and his investors think no one knows, plenty of people now know. The credibility is zero amd sinking daily.

Joe and Alex met, they talked and planned a nice strategy, if I was told a wrong place, so be it, it doesnt change what they are planning to do to others.

[Alumni96]

FRsot heaves fan, I dont need you to ok what I post, I dont need you to believe what I post. I can see you are also hypnotized by ALex and that is fine. But dont insult anyone elses inteligence because you fail to see the con in all of this. I Have enough info to show that ALex is self serving as I have stated at the expense of others, no different than Joe. Time will show who is right and who is wrong, so just sit tight and enjoy the heaves rec league championship win.

Its a shame that these two have colaborated, but I do believe I have enough quotes from many people and info to publish and expose this con.

ALex and his investors think no one knows, plenty of people now know. The credibility is zero amd sinking daily.

Joe and Alex met, they talked and planned a nice strategy, if I was told a wrong place, so be it, it doesnt change what they are planning to do to others.

You weren't told the wrong place. You fabricated information. or filled in the blanks if you will. You are a world class hypocrite. I'd worry about your own credibility.

[tbayz1]

As of now...Vermont isnt going anywhere. Looks like Alex and JOJO have teamed up...

And I don't think they'll be going anywhere anytime soon if Alex pretty much takes control of the league

Oh well, they can play Jersey and Boston 18 times each

[Frost Heaves Fan]

FRsot heaves fan, I dont need you to ok what I post, I dont need you to believe what I post. I can see you are also hypnotized by ALex and that is fine. But dont insult anyone elses inteligence because you fail to see the con in all of this. I Have enough info to show that ALex is self serving as I have stated at the expense of others, no different than Joe. Time will show who is right and who is wrong, so just sit tight and enjoy the heaves rec league championship win.

Its a shame that these two have colaborated, but I do believe I have enough quotes from many people and info to publish and expose this con.

ALex and his investors think no one knows, plenty of people now know. The credibility is zero amd sinking daily.

Joe and Alex met, they talked and planned a nice strategy, if I was told a wrong place, so be it, it doesnt change what they are planning to do to others.

a1 your credibility is below zero. You always talk about all of this evidence and info and all of it is smoke and mirrors. I have yet to see any evidence come out of you. Just alot of hot air. As I said earlier, I doubt that you have even seen a basketball game in the last 5-10 years.

[williamhughes11]

I would be surprised if Joe and Alex did not meet over the All-Star Weekend to discuss Vermont's future in the ABA, regardless of the validity of the story. Halifax has already left, Manchester is almost 100% to leave to join the CBA, PBL, or a merger of the two (newspaper reports have put the owners and players at a Albany Patroons game), and Quebec and/or Montreal may join Halifax if they are travel partners in the CBA, PBL or merged league.

Alex is the owner of the most visibile franchise in the league, and Joe certainly doesn't want to lose him or the Vermont team. The question is, can Vermont fit into another league (FIBA rules on court size hurts Barre and Burlington, although they are both look like great places to see a game), and do they really want to go anywhere else?

[robster2001]

Alex is the owner of the most visibile franchise in the league, and Joe certainly doesn't want to lose him or the Vermont team. The question is, can Vermont fit into another league (FIBA rules on court size hurts Barre and Burlington, although they are both look like great places to see a game), and do they really want to go anywhere else?

Will they have a choice?

If Manchester, Quebec, and Montreal leave the ABA, and with Halifax already gone... who's Vermont going to play?

Another parade of $10K-and-a-dream Future Former Franchises?

At some point, the novelty will wear off in Vermont and the games will actually have to mean something... and playing 6 guys who just piled out of an SUV after driving from God knows where won't do it. For now, they get away with being the closest thing to pro sports in Vermont. That won't last forever. If they haven't either stabilized the ABA or found a reputable league... that fanbase will slide. And then what?

[South Atlantic]

As a business owner, I will admit that any advantage I can get, I will take. I don't think calling Alex self-serving or a 'con' is even on the right wave length.

If he can use his power to get things for Vermont or himself, then more power to him. It can be construed however you feel but really it is good business for him to be in his position. If you owned a McDonalds chain and you were getting all of the perks before other ones, would you tell the CEO of Mickey D's that you want the wealth spread around, you know not to look greedy? Heck no, you will take it and profit from it. The name of the game is Profit, and if Alex can turn even a little one in this wreck, then my hats off to him.

As for other information posted, such as the mysterious Chinese dinner, etc. well that is all a moot point. I have noticed that A1 has enjoyed trying to take down the ABA at any point. That is great, really but listen, this thing isn't going to die. The lawsuits, bad teams, bad owners, crooks, etc. just won't die. If you were to utilize your time in a constructive manner, maybe try to make a Real TV deal with this, then you would be profitable.

I know this has been posted before, but does anyone know if Joe owns the ABA letters? The word American Basketball Association? Just curious if anyone knows the truth about that, please email me at info@jjknhoops.com. Thanks in advance.

[Pounder]

South Atlantic... in all honesty, there's an ELEMENT of that in most minor leagues. Many might cite Fort Wayne in the current IHL setup. I might mention San Diego in the WCHL. Yakama, perhaps? It might be the rule in all these leagues, not the exception.

The difference... those leagues make an honest effort at getting games played. Joe fiddles while investors burn, and I'm not sure Alex isn't accompanying on washboard at this point.

[South Atlantic]

I am not defending Joe Newman by any means or happy that 38% of their games were played. I am not really defending Alex either.

I was simply stating as a business person, one can't be mad at Alex for taking the silver spoon or golden cup and eating and drinking from it. I am not the moral or ethics committee for the league so what is discussed on their time is their business.

Do I think Alex could do more good by standing up to Joe? I don't know if we are dealing with owners who truly care about Alex. They have been sold on the product already and not sure if an owner revolt would actually work. Then we are left with sides and I am sure everyone will settle back into their ABA schedule. They can't afford another league (hell, they can't afford this one)!

The league itself sucks, and has sucked for a long time (it seems like a long time). Is there an answer to this league? The PBL? The CBA? Another start-up league? I don't know if there is an answer to this.

[LightningMan]

Is there an answer to this league? The PBL? The CBA? Another start-up league? I don't know if there is an answer to this.
Since this league and Joe seem welded together, the only answer for this league is for all viable participants to leave it for the D-League, the PBL, the CBA, or some other league that understands at least the fundamentals of running a league.

The only cure for the ABA is extinction, IMO.

[notreallyasportsfan]

getting back to the dinner...would that have been on Friday night A1???

Friday night’s dinner was at Sean and Nora's...a lovely buffet meal and some great chocolate thing for desert.
Alex and Joe did sit at a table together, with Joe on Alex's left and BRAD on his right. Sitting across from Brad was Pat MacDonald and her husband. The group spent the whole dinner talking about the history of the State House in Montpelier...and no time talking about the ABA.

Speaking as a fan...I do not feel ripped off, taken advantage of or anything else....as fans we had a great time going to the games and the whole experience.
Speaking as a sponsor, I really got my money's worth out of the season and could not be happier.

My question: Instead of bashing Alex and his organization, why aren't more people asking "Gee, if the FH can make a success out of this, why can't others do the same?".

Being a former franchisee of a national company, I can say that those who failed often do not work hard enough or have a good business plan or market themselves properly.
Clearly, that's not the case with every ABA team/business that failed, but I bet it is with many of them.
Does it help that Alex has some connections in the world? I'm sure of it...but is that the only reason the Heaves have an organization that the fans love and the local business community is willing to support....I don't think so.
Personal responsibility in running your own business is the biggest key to success. Some people are able to take a good "system" and not be able to make it work....others can take a bad system and make it sing.

I'm sure many disagree....but these are my thoughts.

[formerlyknownasfells]

getting back to the dinner...would that have been on Friday night A1???

Friday night’s dinner was at Sean and Nora's...a lovely buffet meal and some great chocolate thing for desert.
Alex and Joe did sit at a table together, with Joe on Alex's left and BRAD on his right. Sitting across from Brad was Pat MacDonald and her husband. The group spent the whole dinner talking about the history of the State House in Montpelier...and no time talking about the ABA.

Speaking as a fan...I do not feel ripped off, taken advantage of or anything else....as fans we had a great time going to the games and the whole experience.
Speaking as a sponsor, I really got my money's worth out of the season and could not be happier.

My question: Instead of bashing Alex and his organization, why aren't more people asking "Gee, if the FH can make a success out of this, why can't others do the same?".

Being a former franchisee of a national company, I can say that those who failed often do not work hard enough or have a good business plan or market themselves properly.
Clearly, that's not the case with every ABA team/business that failed, but I bet it is with many of them.
Does it help that Alex has some connections in the world? I'm sure of it...but is that the only reason the Heaves have an organization that the fans love and the local business community is willing to support....I don't think so.
Personal responsibility in running your own business is the biggest key to success. Some people are able to take a good "system" and not be able to make it work....others can take a bad system and make it sing.

I'm sure many disagree....but these are my thoughts.

Ah yes, that would be the reception Mayor Lauzon hosted, correct?

I agree with you 100 percent on your points.

By the way, Joe and Alex couldn't have had dinner on Saturday night. Joe and Brad had a 6:00 flight out of Burlington and had to high tail it up I-89 to make their flight. Friday, both Brad and Joe barely got into town in time to make the dinner at Sean and Nora's.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

getting back to the dinner...would that have been on Friday night A1???

Friday night’s dinner was at Sean and Nora's...a lovely buffet meal and some great chocolate thing for desert.
Alex and Joe did sit at a table together, with Joe on Alex's left and BRAD on his right. Sitting across from Brad was Pat MacDonald and her husband. The group spent the whole dinner talking about the history of the State House in Montpelier...and no time talking about the ABA.

Speaking as a fan...I do not feel ripped off, taken advantage of or anything else....as fans we had a great time going to the games and the whole experience.
Speaking as a sponsor, I really got my money's worth out of the season and could not be happier.

My question: Instead of bashing Alex and his organization, why aren't more people asking "Gee, if the FH can make a success out of this, why can't others do the same?".

Being a former franchisee of a national company, I can say that those who failed often do not work hard enough or have a good business plan or market themselves properly.
Clearly, that's not the case with every ABA team/business that failed, but I bet it is with many of them.
Does it help that Alex has some connections in the world? I'm sure of it...but is that the only reason the Heaves have an organization that the fans love and the local business community is willing to support....I don't think so.
Personal responsibility in running your own business is the biggest key to success. Some people are able to take a good "system" and not be able to make it work....others can take a bad system and make it sing.

I'm sure many disagree....but these are my thoughts.
I think many on the board here agree that Vermont is a model franchise, regardless of league affiliation. There are some like A1 who will debate that fact ad infinitum, but the Heaves have put a successful product on the court, to the general approval of its fans, for two years running.

Now, if these other issues come to light with irrefutable proof - the book, the 'side deals' - then Alex gets knocked down a peg or five.

One big issue with the success of the top ABA franchises of the recent past - Rochester, Vermont, Arkansas (RimRockers) - was how much of their success was determined by the manual Joe touts as the ABA's holy grail. He claims that every team that follows its design is a success but...

if something were THAT infallible, why wouldn't the other 170+ franchises have used every nugget in that book? Can it really be that only 3 teams have ever followed Joe's instruction? Why wouldn't every single minor league franchise be beating down on the door at 9421 Holliday Drive in Indy to get their copy of the "Keys to Success" for their team and market?

Or is it the hard work, dedication, and determination of these franchises, separate from Joe's manifesto, that have made it a success?

[tbayz1]

Joe and Brad had a 6:00 flight...both Brad and Joe...

Didn't Brad resign?

[formerlyknownasfells]

Didn't Brad resign?

Yup, he was there as a fan.

[DazedAndAmused]

My question: Instead of bashing Alex and his organization, why aren't more people asking "Gee, if the FH can make a success out of this, why can't others do the same?".

Being a former franchisee of a national company, I can say that those who failed often do not work hard enough or have a good business plan or market themselves properly.
Clearly, that's not the case with every ABA team/business that failed, but I bet it is with many of them.

Personal responsibility in running your own business is the biggest key to success. Some people are able to take a good "system" and not be able to make it work....others can take a bad system and make it sing.



Just a few comments. (Note that i don't agree with the Vermont bashing nor do I care who met with whom in what restaurant.) Certainly there are some common sense statements here that everyone agrees with. Yes, responsibility, business plans, hard work are all needed (and seem to be the league response to the 90% of teams that have folded or otherwise ceased playing in the ABA.) But that oversimplifies and detracts from the main issues in the ABA that seem destined to never be fixed:

1. Owners are "sold" the idea that they can make money in minor league basketball. History says they can't. I would venture to guess that Vermont, the most successful ABA organization, has spent much more than it has earned in its two years and has more losses in front of it. The connections referenced have likely offset these losses for sure.
2. Underfunded, "unconnected," and inexperienced (in business and basketball) owners are let in.

It is admirable that the FH have found some degree of success in their somewhat unique market in the league, but unfortunately with all of the league issues, foldings, and problems, it's analogous to being the cleanest part of the mud puddle. The good news is that the local fans seem to be getting alot out of the FH experience. Unfortunately, the rest of the sports world has such little respect for the league that what the FH have done is tarnished and in turn not respected. It started last year when arguably the leagues strongest teams didn't play in the playoffs. I personally don't see a turnaround for the ABA. Vermont needs to get into another league fast. At some point the fans will catch on and grow weary of a "pseudo league."

I say all of this because I believe the FH organization is one of the strongest and best in all of minor league basketball, and I'd like to see what they're doing really count.

[Paul S]

Thats actually good news that Brad and Joe are able to sit and enjoy dinner, money between friends and family is an awful thing. I'm glad it didn't ruin a relationship.

Vermont is a well run team. End of story. But don't think Alex is some street savy businessman just running a good operation. Alex, in my opinion, is part of a problem. He is perpetuating the idea that this is a well run league, and you two can get in on the action with 10k.

Some of the country bumpkins who come on here and defend Joe on here from Vermont are really overwhelmed by their love of all things Frost Heave. Most people from Vermont are good decent people, I live close to the state and its a wonderful place, you can't pick a nicer place, just some people up there are hicks and frankly bamboozled. Not all, not even most, just some. Don't get me wrong Rhode Island has its share of people from all walks of life, this isn't a anti-Vermont post.

But there are some guys here who are wearing horse blinders thinking all is well in Joes league and Alex's team. If, and I don't know how true this is, but IF Joe convinced Halifax, Montreal, Quebec, Manchester and Boston to stick around so the guy could finish a book then (again IF this happened) then in my opinion Alex is a part of the problem.

[tbayz1]

Yup, he was there as a fan.

Okay, just making sure.

And I agree with Paul, its good to see business didn't ruin a family, and Joe and Brad are able to go on a weekend trip together.

[Jimmytwotimes]

Paul S i agree with you. Vermonters are very nice people, but they lack big city attitude and thinking. They find the good in something and focus on that instead of the negative. If Alex is really running a scam and pulling the wool over the fans eyes and if or when it comes out he will be left with nothing. Vermonters will embrace you and support you to the fullest, but dont screw them over----everyone knows everyone

[utahstarsticketholder]

I have no respect for Alex because of the following.
1. He knows the score.
2. He sanctions the scam.
3. He know that in a "real" league the numbers will not work for his bottom line.
4. He does nothing to warn "new minority owners and new owners" that the keys to success need seed money.
5. He knows that without an influx of new teams the schedule will be the same two teams x 18 and fans will not put up with that non competitive season.
6. He has his own interests alone in all respects.

So yes, he is making money but if I were him I could not sleep well at night knowing the cost to other owners, players, fans and vendors. He is not unaware of the scam that is the "ABA".

Flame away FH fans.

BTW Ole joe were's my refund? jh

[ABARadio]

As most of you know I rarely post here on anything other than in regards to questions about the ABA Show.

But I just wanted to let it known my opinion of Alex. As someone who knows him and deals with him on a business level I feel I should let my voice be heard. Every time I have ever dealt with him he has been the utmost professional a person in my field could ever ask for.

I grew up reading him and the fact that I have been able to work with him (both in interviews and streaming his team's games) is an honor. He is a wealth of basketball knowledge and is one of the great basketball writers of our time. Every time I interview him or just speak with him off the record I feel like I learn more about the game of basketball.

He runs a model franchise. He sells out games, is a staple in the communities he plays, and is a great role model for the towns. Vermonters should be proud of him and his organization.

[a1sports]

Cheers to Utah..

Exactly, when you know there is a problem and you do nothing about it you become part of the problem. Time will show that this is a self serving individual, all for himself, from his sponsor of the 3-d rule to his ABA book, all about his pocket and No one elses.

Even now while other North east ABA teams are planning to leave, he is still working them, trying to convince them to stay.

Again I wonder what he would have written about the ABA if he wasnt in the ABA.

I know what Doyle Told me last year> When we called on ALex to help out and starighten the league out and oust Joe,,,ALex said, I see no problems.

Right there...Guilty od self preservation at the cost of others.

PS. NO ABA team has ever made money. Ever. Joes little cook book is dated, all that stuff in there worked in 1978.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

Paul S i agree with you. Vermonters are very nice people, but they lack big city attitude and thinking. They find the good in something and focus on that instead of the negative. If Alex is really running a scam and pulling the wool over the fans eyes and if or when it comes out he will be left with nothing. Vermonters will embrace you and support you to the fullest, but dont screw them over----everyone knows everyone

How could Alex be screwing us Vermonters over. We pay $10 per game (don't have to pay for parking) and get 2 + hours of fast paced, semi pro basketball and most of us drive less then 10 miles to get to the game.

How is that getting screwed over? Maybe that is just selfish fro a fan's standpoint.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

As most of you know I rarely post here on anything other than in regards to questions about the ABA Show.

But I just wanted to let it known my opinion of Alex. As someone who knows him and deals with him on a business level I feel I should let my voice be heard. Every time I have ever dealt with him he has been the utmost professional a person in my field could ever ask for.

I grew up reading him and the fact that I have been able to work with him (both in interviews and streaming his team's games) is an honor. He is a wealth of basketball knowledge and is one of the great basketball writers of our time. Every time I interview him or just speak with him off the record I feel like I learn more about the game of basketball.

He runs a model franchise. He sells out games, is a staple in the communities he plays, and is a great role model for the towns. Vermonters should be proud of him and his organization.

ABARadio, you are right about Vermonters, that we are proud of Alex. Unfortunately, a1 and other jealous posters on OSC just want to bash him.

[Frost Heaves Fan]

I have no respect for Alex because of the following.
1. He knows the score.
2. He sanctions the scam.
3. He know that in a "real" league the numbers will not work for his bottom line.
4. He does nothing to warn "new minority owners and new owners" that the keys to success need seed money.
5. He knows that without an influx of new teams the schedule will be the same two teams x 18 and fans will not put up with that non competitive season.
6. He has his own interests alone in all respects.

So yes, he is making money but if I were him I could not sleep well at night knowing the cost to other owners, players, fans and vendors. He is not unaware of the scam that is the "ABA".

Flame away FH fans.

BTW Ole joe were's my refund? jh

a1, you are not the only bitter, jealous poster!! It is sad to go through life like this.

[a1sports]

Ok frosty...

I will make a deal with you. I will give you a list of players I sent to the ABA in a certain year. WHen you pay them the salary they never got paid, get some of them back the jobs they lost, then I will leave this board.

Untill you know what this league has done to good honest kids who just wanted to play ball, I would recommend you go watch the frosties play and look at your poster of alex next to your bed.

I wont excpect you to pay back sponsors or venues, just pay those players.

DO something good, look for a cause that will benefit society as a whole.
MAybe start with the ABA? naahhhhhh. Here is a hint for life, its not about the basketball game on the court.

[Jimmytwotimes]

Frosty you gotta be kidding me!!! If Alex has put this org together legit and hes clear of all these rumors than good. But if your money is going to someone who cares less about you and only about your money than i would have a problem with that. If he is scamming all the teams in the east to stick around so VT will have an opponent for next year, i would have a problem with that. Open your eyes a little bit and remember somethings are not as they seems. I have heard great things about Alex and i hope there all true, but i also leave room for doubt.

[utahstarsticketholder]

I guess I do not understand your logic. If someone witnesses a wrong doing and does nothing about it, they are as guilty. Alex is a great businessman but a poor person in he knows how many people have been taken to the cleaners and has not only done nothing to warn people. But in fact encouraged new owners to throw down their money to prop up the league. The thousands of dollars thrown to Ole Joe helps the "ABA" continue to find people willing to part with their limited monetary worth. The "ABA" league is Ole Joe and Alex. He has purchased a ticket on Ole Joe's train and is now the engineer.
Yes he does have responsibility to make a difference and if he would I would be the first congratulate him for righting the ship. But instead he continues to benefit from the other underfunded owners without risking anything.
Bitter? No, I long ago gave up thinking that a refund on season tickets (that was promised) on a team that never played a game but cashed my check! Hell, we have a NBA and a NDBL team within 50 miles of my home. I just have always supported minor league sports teams as a family of sports nuts.
FH, I am sure you enjoy seeing your teams' success, I only wish Alex would do the right thing by being honest about the lack of integrity in this current form of the "ABA".

[Paul S]

Frost Heaves Fan - I think I speak for all of us when I say, the Vermont Frost Heaves are a well run organization, they definately do provide good value for your money. So I can see it from your perspective. What we want is for all teams to be run like the Frost Heaves. But there is a very good reason they aren't...............Joseph 'the Magpie' Newman.

Lets first of all look at it not from a paying customer of the the Heaves who gets 2 hours of fast paced action and free parking for your 10 bucks. Lets look at the bigger picture. Many people have come into this league being told for 10k they too can have a Heaves organization. They've been tricked. Vermont is the exception that proves the rule.

If the ABA was an airline, then Vermont is the nice spiffy plane in all the photo's, all the commercials. But after you book your ticket your plane turns out to be a POS. No heat, seats aren't bolted down, lost luggage, wallet gets stolen, no food, no drinks, stewardess'es don't speak English, and your flight from LA to NY simply lands in Fargo and Pilot Joe announces this is the end of line and no refunds will be given.

A1 is spot on unfortunately. Maybe not where Joe eats his Egg Foo Yung but about his league in my opinion.


ABARadio is also a straight up guy and in all honest his opinion does carry some weight. But in my opinion Alex is a Wolff in sheeps clothing. Apparantly he convinced the NE teams to stick around by saying something along the lines of "stay in the ABA, I'll get Joe to run things better" for the sole purpose of writing a book. So 5 other owners have to keep up with the losses', the Bahama No-Shows, the lies, the nonsense all so he can write a book and guess what? Those book profits aren't going to be split 5 ways. Now I don't know if this is verifiable but until Alex says something about this whole mess then I'm gonna be wary of him.

Do you at least agree the ABA is a poorly run league?

[DazedAndAmused]

I get the feeling there really are only half as many people talking here as it seems. Here is what should sum up this thread:

- Vermont is a good organization in a unique market.
- NO ABA team, including Vermont is a profitable business venture.
- Alex Wolff is not a bad guy...even if self serving to a degree. Aren't we all?
- Vermont probably will stay in the ABA (but I hope not for their sake.)
- The ABA tries to sell a bill of goods to underfinanced and unprepared "owners." There appears to be no effort to change this. Problem now is that no one who is financed or prepared would ever go to the ABA. Ultimately, this will kill the league.
- Most of the remaining "good" ABA teams will be gone in a few weeks.
- a1 is a1. (..for you Atlas Shrugged fans.)

[Frost Heaves Fan]

Frost Heaves Fan - I think I speak for all of us when I say, the Vermont Frost Heaves are a well run organization, they definately do provide good value for your money. So I can see it from your perspective. What we want is for all teams to be run like the Frost Heaves. But there is a very good reason they aren't...............Joseph 'the Magpie' Newman.

Lets first of all look at it not from a paying customer of the the Heaves who gets 2 hours of fast paced action and free parking for your 10 bucks. Lets look at the bigger picture. Many people have come into this league being told for 10k they too can have a Heaves organization. They've been tricked. Vermont is the exception that proves the rule.

If the ABA was an airline, then Vermont is the nice spiffy plane in all the photo's, all the commercials. But after you book your ticket your plane turns out to be a POS. No heat, seats aren't bolted down, lost luggage, wallet gets stolen, no food, no drinks, stewardess'es don't speak English, and your flight from LA to NY simply lands in Fargo and Pilot Joe announces this is the end of line and no refunds will be given.

A1 is spot on unfortunately. Maybe not where Joe eats his Egg Foo Yung but about his league in my opinion.


ABARadio is also a straight up guy and in all honest his opinion does carry some weight. But in my opinion Alex is a Wolff in sheeps clothing. Apparantly he convinced the NE teams to stick around by saying something along the lines of "stay in the ABA, I'll get Joe to run things better" for the sole purpose of writing a book. So 5 other owners have to keep up with the losses', the Bahama No-Shows, the lies, the nonsense all so he can write a book and guess what? Those book profits aren't going to be split 5 ways. Now I don't know if this is verifiable but until Alex says something about this whole mess then I'm gonna be wary of him.

Do you at least agree the ABA is a poorly run league?

Paul, I do agree that the ABA seems to be poorly run. I or any other FH fan have never said that the ABA is great. All we have all said is that: 1) The FH games are a good experience from a fan standpoint. 2) Dealing with Alex at the fan level is great and he seems to be a man of character and have no reason to question this. 3) Coach Will Voigt is very talented and well respected. 4) The team is managed well and we play 36 games each year for 2 years running. 5) We have a team with a lot of talent.

It is a pretty simple formula for the sucess of the Forst Heaves.

I am sorry that there are so many bitter ex-ABA poeple out there that have got burned. But that is not our problem

[Frost Heaves Fan]

I get the feeling there really are only half as many people talking here as it seems. Here is what should sum up this thread:

- Vermont is a good organization in a unique market.
- NO ABA team, including Vermont is a profitable business venture.
- Alex Wolff is not a bad guy...even if self serving to a degree. Aren't we all?
- Vermont probably will stay in the ABA (but I hope not for their sake.)
- The ABA tries to sell a bill of goods to underfinanced and unprepared "owners." There appears to be no effort to change this. Problem now is that no one who is financed or prepared would ever go to the ABA. Ultimately, this will kill the league.
- Most of the remaining "good" ABA teams will be gone in a few weeks.
- a1 is a1. (..for you Atlas Shrugged fans.)

D 'n A (I like this abbreviation). Here is my response
#1-3 = I agree
#4 = Not decided yet. At this point it is 50/50.
#5 = I have to say, this is not the Frost Heaves issue!!!
#6 = Don't know.
#7 = a1 is not really a1. He is closer to z99 or worse

[LightningMan]

My question: Instead of bashing Alex and his organization, why aren't more people asking "Gee, if the FH can make a success out of this, why can't others do the same?"
Because we know the answer: others can do the same. 8/10ths of the PBL were either ABA teams (RCH, JAX, MRY, WLM, QDC, RCK, CHI) or teams slated to play in the ABA (RDG). I would think Frost Heaves fans would wonder why they left, just as fans of those teams that have left do wonder why Vermont stays.

[DazedAndAmused]

FH Fan, I do think this statement is a mistake:

But that is not our problem

It is your problem because it takes all credibility away from your league, which in turn will eventually trickle down to your local market. Your first 2 years have been solid and you have been fairly immune to what's happened on the outside so far. As the league gets weaker and teams show up with 5 guys or no uniforms or don't show up at all, you will feel the effect as your fans will figure it out.

Right now, you are basically living in a mansion on a street full of shacks.

[notreallyasportsfan]

[QUOTE=Paul S;88380]
Some of the country bumpkins who come on here and defend Joe on here from Vermont are really overwhelmed by their love of all things Frost Heave. Most people from Vermont are good decent people, I live close to the state and its a wonderful place, you can't pick a nicer place, just some people up there are hicks and frankly bamboozled. Not all, not even most, just some.
QUOTE]

Personally, I am neither a bumpkin or a hick…..before moving to VT I spent my life in NY. The majority of the people I have meet since living in VT are also not hicks or bumpkins…and those that are most likely don’t own computers so they are not the ones posting here, nor are they willing to fire up the model T to make the trip down the ‘mountain to some silly game. They stay home to whittle.


But anyway….

I would imagine Joe is required by law to provide any potential franchisees a prospectus (for my bumpkin friends: “a formal description of a proposed commercial literary or financial venture distributed to prospective participants”) that would have to detail all the failures of other franchisees in the past. I would assume these people would also do their own research, online and otherwise, to see what the real deal is.

Unless Alex has some supernatural powers, how in the heck could he possibly be able to convince other perspective new owners to ignore this information and jump in the pool? Maybe he is using hypnosis??? YES! That must be it! Alex has hypnotized every new player, sponsor and owner to join up…for the sole purpose of writing his book….because heaven knows he has nothing else to write about…and getting up to send emails out to sponsors at 4:45AM before he jumps on a plane to do his SI work is no big deal.

Then there’s all those press releases…..that’s not really to help promote the business plan…there’s really a subliminal message…..
Free will is gone…yes….that MUST be how it’s working.

[LightningMan]

Unless Alex has some supernatural powers, how in the heck could he possibly be able to convince other perspective new owners to ignore this information and jump in the pool?
There is a reason advertisers use spokespeople rather than just scrolling words across a television screen; people tend to believe people rather than printed words and other cold facts. Alex need not have supernatural powers for people to want to take his word for it.

And as to the franchise failures being detailed in the prospectus, the individual franchises are their own entities and not part of the ABA company, therefore their individual successes and failures would not be relevant (nor required to be in the prospectus).

[utahstarsticketholder]

I have seen this happen before in Salt Lake. We loved our minor league team and went to every game. The team shut down after being promised financial support from the league, however the league blamed the owners. The league promised in it's place the next best thing , we bought into the season ticket pool to help support the team. The team never played a game and the owners were MIA. The "league" promised a refund at first then told us find the owners the league is not responsible for your loss.
The sales pitch of this team to the fans was the repeated example of the successful teams never divulging the problems of the majority of the teams in the league. We, in retrospect, should have done more research about the league. Fortunately we only lost $200.00 dollars but multiply that by 200 to 300 fans and you can see a fraud being perpetuated.
So fast forward four years later, the exact same scam is being sold to the unsuspecting local fans, players, vendors and some naive owners.
This is why I have no respect for Alex because he knows all of this and does nothing to stop the fraud.
FH you and your local loyal fans deserve better from Alex. Hopefully he has a change of heart and give the fans what they deserve a stable home in a league where the fan comes first before the commisioners bank account.
BTW I do not consider you or anyone from Vermont as hicks.
BTW2 To another poster, Ole Joe sells the rights to form a team in a territorial area not a franchise,or product. He sells an idea with the promise of a national web site, and scheduling. That is it. He may promise the moon but is not bound to deliver anything.

[DazedAndAmused]

notreallyasportsfan, so you don't subscribe to the "magical alex" theory either? that's what isn't adding up. the guy can't be that influentual, even if he can talk a good game. the evidence is teams collapsing and folding left and right. the decision is how long you hang around to deal with it or how soon before things turn around? the FH made their choice to stick around another yr for whatever reason. maybe it just comes down to the book being more interesting when delivered against the background of the crazy antics of the aba? in the end, i still hope that the FH get to a real league with real competition and organization. that will legitimize their accomplishments.

[Paul S]

Paul, I do agree that the ABA seems to be poorly run. I or any other FH fan have never said that the ABA is great. All we have all said is that: 1) The FH games are a good experience from a fan standpoint. 2) Dealing with Alex at the fan level is great and he seems to be a man of character and have no reason to question this. 3) Coach Will Voigt is very talented and well respected. 4) The team is managed well and we play 36 games each year for 2 years running. 5) We have a team with a lot of talent.

It is a pretty simple formula for the sucess of the Forst Heaves.

I am sorry that there are so many bitter ex-ABA poeple out there that have got burned. But that is not our problem

You know I agreed with you right up until the "thats not our problem part". Thats what Alex would say. It is your problem, the fact you cannot see it isn't our problem. Surely to God your not that oblivious??? It'll be your problem soon sucker. Just wait and see. If you stay in this league it'll be your problem soon.

I have a lot of sympathy for guys like UtahStarsticketholder, who paid good money and were basically told by Joe to "F*** off" but when you get screwed over.......................

Personally, I am neither a bumpkin or a hick…..before moving to VT I spent my life in NY. The majority of the people I have meet since living in VT are also not hicks or bumpkins…and those that are most likely don’t own computers so they are not the ones posting here, nor are they willing to fire up the model T to make the trip down the ‘mountain to some silly game. They stay home to whittle.
You just repeated everything I said but still, you think you are responding to me....very curious.

I would imagine Joe is required by law to provide any potential franchisees a prospectus (for my bumpkin friends: “a formal description of a proposed commercial literary or financial venture distributed to prospective participants”) that would have to detail all the failures of other franchisees in the past. I would assume these people would also do their own research, online and otherwise, to see what the real deal is.

To all bumpkins who " imagine Joe is required by law to provide any potential franchisees a prospectus". No, this is exactly how Joe finds you guys.

If you read this post,

http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=8641

it spells out exactly why Joe should provide a offering circular or a disclosure document if Joe is selling a franchise. Well the very next week Joe went on ABA ALL ACCESS RADIO where he was asked some "tough questions" and Joe made it very clear he is not selling a legal franchise. He is selling a market reservation fee and this is not a franchise at all. You pay your 10k and you get a to reserve a market, then Joe allows you to operate in his league at his discretion.

Unfortunately there is no prospectus (not a mutual fund), no offering circular (not a franchise), no disclosure document............just the good faith and credit in Joe Newman and ABA LLC. All hicks, country bumpkins and anyone else should due their own due dilligence.

Just my opinion..............