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rider
02-09-2008, 01:40 AM
The crazies are starting to unfold with the PBL, Jacksonville and Dallas down the tube. You have to ask why they were not checked better after all the talk of stability and credibility.

Dallas is no surprise , they were not organised for the longest time, no web and details to the last minute.

The PBL paying the travel ect thought they were creating stability and simply are being taken advantage of. what happened to the bonds? I bet they couldn't produce one bond from any team in the league.

To bad , basketball needs them to succeed.

tops804
02-09-2008, 01:47 AM
...Take the best PBL and ABA teams (Are there any in the ABA?) put them in
the CBA. Market and develop the CBA as a feeder league to the NBDL.

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 01:50 AM
Dallas is by all reports not down the tube. Yes, the PBL probably didn't vet as well as they should have. You live, you learn.

The bonds must exist; how else could the league be paying to run an entire team?

The PBL, even amidst the Jacksonville stuff, has been stable. Only one game has not been played and it has been rescheduled. Yes, Wilmington did not play today's scheduled opponent, but they did play basketball today, as advertised, to a full house.

The PBL IMO is succeeding. They have pulled Jacksonville's fat out of the fire twice and covered a really big date for Wilmington by assuring them an opponent.

Yes, the quality of some of the members was probably more suspect than was prudent. But no team so far has folded while a member of the PBL. (It's true; the Jacksonville JAM was evicted from the league before it folded). Can that red, white, and blue league say the same?

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 01:51 AM
...Take the best PBL and ABA teams (Are there any in the ABA?) put them in
the CBA. Market and develop the CBA as a feeder league to the NBDL.
Even with the PBL's "problems" they haven't fielded a team with only five members. How about you take the best CBA teams and fold them into the PBL?

rider
02-09-2008, 07:21 AM
Please understand I in no way am a ABA supporter and my comments in no way are using the ABA as a comparison. The problem is that the failures of the ABA have sadly created the standard or level of what is acceptable profesional conduct. NOT

Having a spare team to play is really B.S! and is not professioanlly acceptable. Soon we willl have one in every city and simply ship uniforms. Can you imagine the NBA or the NHL doing the same, they would be run out of the city.

I do respect the efforts of the PBL officials to fill in the holes but your credibility is shot when you bring in a shelf team.

My biggest problem is why did the Dallas or Jacksonville pass the entrance test? I guess history should have shown us when they couldn't make timely annoucements that they truly couldn't pull a new league together. Dolyle kept saying how high the standard was going to be and in realty the bar wasn't very high at all. They were like a frog in hot water from their limited experience and reference being in the ABA. I don't believe that any team put up a bond? Do you think Jacksonville did! Not a chance!

Everyone in the PBL and the CBA have to wake up and do whats in the best interest of minor league basketball merge merge merge. Do it NOW! Everyone play one inter league game now and or have the two champs play each other at end of the season. Make the committment NOW! give the the process time to mature so that your ready for next season. Don't stumble into a nother season.

Alumni96
02-09-2008, 09:15 AM
...Take the best PBL and ABA teams (Are there any in the ABA?) put them in
the CBA. Market and develop the CBA as a feeder league to the NBDL.

I agree with some of this. Take the best teams and make one league. Don't market yourself as an NBDL feeder league however. The next step up for 95% of these players is a payday overseas. Play by FIBA Rules. Develop a relationship with leagues in Europe. The US needs a way for players to become experienced with the FIBA rules. Teams in Europe will know how a player fits into a game that is officiated with the rules in their league.

misenern
02-09-2008, 09:20 AM
Dallas is by all reports not down the tube.

Not all reports. One report from usabasketball.com reported they are in dire financial straits. They turned out to be right about the Jam. Time will tell if this report has the same credibility.

Yes, the PBL probably didn't vet as well as they should have. You live, you learn.

That was one of their founding principles. I don't understand how they acted so haphazardly about it. It really hurts their credibility in my eyes.

The bonds must exist; how else could the league be paying to run an entire team?

I am assuming that they pay for it the same way they pay for the travel, which I still do not comprehend. I also seem to have doubts about these bonds, granted I don't have a great knowledge of what is going on in the league. The league is planning to run the "Slam" as a barebones travel team, there doesn't seem to significant funds behind the operation. If the bonds do exist, then they hardly fulfill even the most basic requirements. That’s a problem.

The PBL, even amidst the Jacksonville stuff, has been stable. Only one game has not been played and it has been rescheduled. Yes, Wilmington did not play today's scheduled opponent, but they did play basketball today, as advertised, to a full house.

The league office itself has done a fine job thus far. However, one team out of ten is a huge blow. The replacement team fiasco is not good. It reminds me of the YMCA squad Boston sent to Halifax to face the Rainmen. It looked bad on the Rainmen and the ABA. The game was a dud, in front of over 2,000 people.

The PBL IMO is succeeding. They have pulled Jacksonville's fat out of the fire twice and covered a really big date for Wilmington by assuring them an opponent.

It's good to see the league taking initiative and helping out a team. That's a huge step above the ABA's management. However, this problem should not have occurred on the first place. Period.

Yes, the quality of some of the members was probably more suspect than was prudent. But no team so far has folded while a member of the PBL. (It's true; the Jacksonville JAM was evicted from the league before it folded). Can that red, white, and blue league say the same?

I don't think he was arguing that the ABA is better league. It’s not. I am simply saying, that when judged on its own merits, the PBL has some major issues. We need to stop using the ABA as a measuring stick for success. I am new to minor league basketball, but the amount of mismanagement has been shocking to me.

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 09:45 AM
I'll stop using the ABA as a yardstick when other people start remembering the PBL has been in existence for less than a year.

tbayz1
02-09-2008, 09:46 AM
The PBL has deffinately hit a rough spot in the road right now, but it seems they are still organized and handling things the best way they can.

One example of that is getting a team out to Wilmington for a game on such short notice. What if those 2k people in Wilmington showed up and there was no game, now that would be a terrible situation.

Dallas needs to get their act together and get on the right flight, theres no excuse, thats just stupidity on the coach's end.

Chicago is scheduled to play at Jacksonville tonight on the PBL site but then Chicago has Jacksonville scheduled to be coming into Chicago on their sit, where will the game be played? Did the SLAM(pbl) find players, and keep around Jam players willing to stay?? This will be the real test for the league, after what happened with the Jam and whatnot, and how quickly it happened this week, didnt not give the PBL much time to resolve the situation, lets see how tonight goes.

tbayz1
02-09-2008, 09:55 AM
Now the SLAM also have stated they will be traveling to Chicago for tonights game, so it looks like Chicago will be hosting Jacksonville today, and the PBL needs to update their site

misenern
02-09-2008, 09:58 AM
I'll stop using the ABA as a yardstick when other people start remembering the PBL has been in existence for less than a year.

That's fine if you want to set the bar low. I just don't think it's a valid reason to saw everything is all rosy. I think the PBL, and other leagues, should aim higher. I wonder of the NBDL had these types of problems midway through their first season? It would be interesting to see what problems that leagues faced and perhaps use that a more reasonable stick for success.

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 10:04 AM
Not all reports. One report from usabasketball.com reported they are in dire financial straits. They turned out to be right about the Jam. Time will tell if this report has the same credibility.
I'm talking about reports here. All the posters here with the scoop keep saying Dallas will play.
[Vetting] was one of their founding principles. I don't understand how they acted so haphazardly about it.
Being wrong about someone doesn't mean it was done haphazardly. And I think a few teams might have been let in simply because they wanted to field a league and needed more than the ones that were the most solid.
The league is planning to run the "Slam" as a barebones travel team...
I hadn't heard that.
The league office itself has done a fine job thus far. However, one team out of ten is a huge blow.
Agreed.
The replacement team fiasco is not good. It reminds me of the YMCA squad Boston sent to Halifax to face the Rainmen. It looked bad on the Rainmen and the ABA. The game was a dud, in front of over 2,000 people.
First of all, they weren't presented as the Defenders. It was announced that Dallas wasn't coming. Next, and this was important, the league did something that allowed Wilmington to keep the huge payday they were supposed to have and not force them to give back the money and disappoint a bunch of Scouts. And in the case of Wilmington, the game was a rousing success in front of about 2,000. You wanted what I wanted: Dallas to actually come and play. That didn't happen. I liked how they handled it.
It's good to see the league taking initiative and helping out a team. That's a huge step above the ABA's management. However, this problem should not have occurred on the first place. Period.
Agreed.
I am simply saying, that when judged on its own merits, the PBL has some major issues.
Yes, they do. Seems to me all of minor league basketball does. And remember, this league is also less than one year old.

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 10:08 AM
That's fine if you want to set the bar low. I just don't think it's a valid reason to saw everything is all rosy. I think the PBL, and other leagues, should aim higher.
Who is saying it's rosy? Not me. Who is saying the PBL shouldn't look to do better? Not me. But the title of this thread suggests that the PBL is no better than the ABA. And I'm sorry, but even with their problems they are.

teqkng
02-09-2008, 10:09 AM
I wont pipe in with antagonizing statements. I will however make a statement that should put things into perspective. The PBL is a first year organization and is doing what its leaders feel is necessary to field a viable league and stable schedule. There are going to be times that the league makes poor decisions due to the emotion or opinions of the leader/s and how a situation is presented to a quorum. Time will tell if these decisions were good or bad, along with the information that has been previously omitted either on purpose, to create a sympathetic mass opinion or as an actual mistake. Do I need to use a current political example by pointing out that the support for the war was fairly good until certain information surfaced and was verified. In retrospect, how many of us have different opinions now than we had on 9/11 or 12???

2 cents on a somber note...

TEQ

tops804
02-09-2008, 10:20 AM
I'll stop using the ABA as a yardstick when other people start remembering the PBL has been in existence for less than a year.

What we need to realize is that we are playing right into Joe's hand with this one.
The PBL should be worried about the state of the PBL, not what other leagues
think of it's actions.

Right now, comparing the leagues is like comparing a car off the showroom floor --
to a broken down, rusted out model.

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 10:28 AM
What we need to realize is that we are playing right into Joe's hand with this one. The PBL should be worried about the state of the PBL, not what other leagues think of it's actions.

Right now, comparing the leagues is like comparing a car off the showroom floor to a broken down, rusted out model.
I agree. But I wasn't the one that started the comparison in the first place. The title of this thread is "PBL No Better" not "PBL has problems". The PBL does have problems, large ones. They're still better than the red, white, and blue flying circus. So is the CBA [better than the ABA] even with their five man team and apparently no uniforms.

Yes, let's please hold all of minor league basketball to a high standard. But also let's stop saying that any mistake or problem in any league ipso facto makes them the ABA.

misenern
02-09-2008, 10:33 AM
I'm talking about reports here. All the posters here with the scoop keep saying Dallas will play.

Being wrong about someone doesn't mean it was done haphazardly. And I think a few teams might have been let in simply because they wanted to field a league and needed more than the ones that were the most solid.

Okay, I misunderstood. It still remains that not all sources are in agreement. I also recall a number of threads on this message board stating the Jacksonville situation was way overblown, which turned out to be false. Like I said, time will tell.

I also wonder, how many times does the league need to be wrong before we can consider carelessness? The original Chicago team left the PBL scrambling, Jacksonville was a dud and if the Dallas situation doesn't improve, that will be three original teams out of ten. That's a big concern to me.

I hadn't heard that.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/020708/spl_244524619.shtml

"Meanwhile, the PBL plans to finish the season with a team named the Jacksonville Slam, which will be run by the league. Doyle said they would try to add what players they could from the Jam. If a local venue could be found, admission would be free for home games. Otherwise, the team would finish the regular season on the road. "

"Gillespie said he wouldn't take over the Slam because of the likelihood of heavy travel and low wages."

From what I gathered from this article, it sounds like they doing some major cost cutting. It sounds as if they will end up being a travel team. Maybe I misunderstood the connotations. Also of note is that they will play in Chicago tonight rather than Florida, as previously scheduled. However, things can always change.

First of all, they weren't presented as the Defenders. It was announced that Dallas wasn't coming. Next, and this was important, the league did something that allowed Wilmington to keep the huge payday they were supposed to have and not force them to give back the money and disappoint a bunch of Scouts. And in the case of Wilmington, the game was a rousing success in front of about 2,000. You wanted what I wanted: Dallas to actually come and play. That didn't happen. I liked how they handled it.

I applaud the league for taking action. However, the fact remains, wasn't the PBL ultimately responsible for letting this group in? We both consider the situation concerning the lack of a real team to be disappointing.

Who is saying it's rosy? Not me. Who is saying the PBL shouldn't look to do better? Not me. But the title of this thread suggests that the PBL is no better than the ABA. And I'm sorry, but even with their problems they are.

I completely agree. I have never stated the ABA and PBL are on even footing. I was simply replying to your post. And as for this being a first year league, I would be very interested in how the NBDL faired in its inaugural season. That would be a legitimate comparison in my view.

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 11:00 AM
I also wonder, how many times does the league need to be wrong before we can consider carelessness? The original Chicago team left the PBL scrambling, Jacksonville was a dud and if the Dallas situation doesn't improve, that will be three original teams out of ten. That's a big concern to me.
I believe it is to everyone. And you are free to consider them careless now, although I am still inclined to write it off to equal parts desperation and inexperience. And if you really want to count accurately, it's four out of eleven, since the Ripknees were sold, then bolted.

As with many things in life, it's not so much how you start but how you finish, and I will be interested to see how the league finishes this year and whether a tighter, more stable ship is on the horizon next year.

misenern
02-09-2008, 11:12 AM
I believe it is to everyone. And you are free to consider them careless now, although I am still inclined to write it off to equal parts desperation and inexperience. And if you really want to count accurately, it's four out of eleven, since the Ripknees were sold, then bolted.

As with many things in life, it's not so much how you start but how you finish, and I will be interested to see how the league finishes this year and whether a tighter, more stable ship is on the horizon next year.

True. It's all a work in progress. I think even the most cynical observer, when presented with all the facts, can agree that this league is certainly a step up from the ABA.

bdaly
02-09-2008, 12:20 PM
It's all certainly a work in progress. I said at the beginning that I didn't expect everything to be perfect, and it hasn't been. But, the fact remains that all the strong teams are having opponents show up, and that's exactly what those teams wanted. A "traveling team" isn't a good thing, but it beats the heck out of hanging a sign up and saying "game off" or organizing a scrimmage.

Minor league basketball is filled with issues. I continue to maintain that the CBA and PBL will merge in one way or another. That'll create a good--albeit not perfect--footprint. Both leagues have had their issues, as we've seen with the Jacksonville situation in the PBL and Atlanta bringing practice jerseys and playing with four guys in the CBA--but it's still an enormous step up from what many of the teams in those two leagues left behind.

I guess I'm a little surprised at the expectations. Yes, leagues try to create hype, and the promises might have been a little strong. But one only needs to look at minor league basketball's history of the past few decades to get a dose of reality. Minor league basketball doesn't draw, and financial issues come with that. It's unrealistic to expect that to change overnight, nor is it easy to attract great ownership with basketball's track record.

The PBL was probably forced to lower the bar a bit to get this season together, but if they continue to play their games, it'll only get easier (especially with a merger). As I said, minor league basketball has been an unreliable financial sink hole for a long, long time. So they made compromises, made a mistake or two, but are a huge step up. After this season, they can weed out the poor teams, continue to elevate standards, and move forward.

radiodavel
02-09-2008, 12:26 PM
the next time any of you go out to eat at a nice restaurant and you order a nice juicy steak and they bring out hamburger...I hope you all say that is ok, doesn't matter to me at least they are better than Joe's Bar down the street and they are trying...

PBL is a pr/marketing nightmare, I wish they would send me some of that money they are spending to make this work..take time to visit some of the teams web sites, there are a couple of teams who did a good job than there are the Illinois teams...what do you think when you see them...

oh, it's ok they are really trying...2 wrongs don't make a right...

bdaly
02-09-2008, 12:37 PM
the next time any of you go out to eat at a nice restaurant and you order a nice juicy steak and they bring out hamburger...I hope you all say that is ok, doesn't matter to me at least they are better than Joe's Bar down the street and they are trying...Interesting analogy. Kinda. The only difference is the "nice restaurant" is charging me the same exact amount of money as "Joe's Bar." If the "nice restaurant" was charging me three or four times more, I'd be upset. Instead, they're charging the same and delivering a superior product. I like that.

Anyway, I'll leave this be for now. I know some people are involved in the politics. I'm just a fan, and I know what I saw in the ABA and I know what I'm seeing on the floor here. I'm enjoying the difference.

radiodavel
02-09-2008, 12:39 PM
bdaly who are you watching in the PBL?

DazedAndAmused
02-09-2008, 01:53 PM
Radiodavel, i can't speak for much of the the PBL West, but Rochester, Wilmington, Reading, Maryland, and Arkansas all look to be strong organizations and look to be doing their part.

Sounds like you know more about the Ill teams.

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 02:46 PM
The next time any of you go out to eat at a nice restaurant and you order a nice juicy steak and they bring out hamburger, I hope you all say that is O.K., doesn't matter to me at least they are better than Joe's Bar down the street and they are trying.
Your analogy is flawed. If I went to see the Cleveland Cavaliers play the Charlotte Bobcats and instead of LeBron and the Cavaliers they brought out the Sea Dawgs, that would be a steak and hamburger switch.

What happened last night is I went out for a burger with pickles (Dallas). I got a burger without pickles, but it was really tasty (a fun, Globetrotter-esque game). I didn't go hungry and I got about what I have always gotten from the restaurant. And it's certainly better than paying for a hamburger and not getting it (ABA).

Nobody--No-freaking body--was kvetching about last night's game when they left because we didn't play Dallas. As someone else said, the town is just discovering that this team even exists, meaning Wilmington, never mind Dallas. Rochester, Jacksonville, and Maryland the longtime fans know from last year and that's about it.

Don't cry for us, Argentina.

not so fast
02-09-2008, 02:47 PM
If you are talking about Chicago, well thats different. But Rockford and Quad cities are doing good, unless you base it strictly on attendance. But they have paid staff, the games are going on, the players and coaches are being paid, and they both have pretty good players, and are competitive in this league.

Certainly both would like better attendance, and time will tell if that will happen. I think it is hard in both markets for different reasons. The Fury are in the shadows of the Rockford Lightning of the CBA, and quite frankly they played at a nice arena and had some top notch players, many that ended up in the NBA. Also some great coaches coached in Rockford, and all of this helps draw people.

Quad cities has been without a CBA team for a while, and I don't think the Quad cities Thunder of the CBA left a good taste in the community when they folded several years ago. So it is going to take time to get people interested in minorleague basketball again in that market. I will say this, there are some good players on their roster in quad cities, they play exciting basketball, and If somehow the new GM can market the team in a way that people start to come out, they will like what they see. But again time will tell.

Chicago, well its seems just to be treading water.

DazedAndAmused
02-09-2008, 03:04 PM
Lightningman, do you think the Wilmington team will eventually end up an UNC-W's arena? Or, is the atmosphere of the smaller packed arena too good to pass up (unless they have perpetual sell outs?)

My person opinion is that most minor league teams need to stay in the 1.5-3k (non high school) community venues to generate the most buzz. 2000 fans made the Jam arena look empty from the stream I saw, whereas the Wilmington streams have looked pretty full and loud, with less crowds that apparently were there last night. Vermont ABA games look full and loud as well. (Yeah, I'll give a shout out to an ABA team.) A few of the CBA streams I have watched looked empty in the bigger venues too.

I actually think some of these owners want to act like they're in the NBA, and in the end, that is their downfall (eg, again Jax.) We have to remember that this is minor league basketball.

LightningMan
02-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Lightningman, do you think the Wilmington team will eventually end up an UNC-W's arena? Or, is the atmosphere of the smaller packed arena too good to pass up (unless they have perpetual sell outs?)
They'd pretty much have to sell out every game for a year or two to make UNCW worth it from a rent standpoint (versus increased capacity). And they'd have to fight the Seahawks for prime dates. They'll be at the Schwartz Center for a while. And the one year the minor league baseball team was here and using the UNCW baseball facility, I remember rent being a problem for them too.

The town is building a convention center (http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20071204/NEWS/712040371/1004/news01), but it looks to be too small to be a sports venue as well.

My desire is that the Sea Dawgs eventually build their own building (which I know teams don't do anymore) because I don't see Cafe Fear CC or the town building a slightly larger facility.

MJHankel
02-09-2008, 10:44 PM
PBL is a pr/marketing nightmare, I wish they would send me some of that money they are spending to make this work..take time to visit some of the teams web sites, there are a couple of teams who did a good job than there are the Illinois teams...what do you think when you see them...

oh, it's ok they are really trying...2 wrongs don't make a right...

Correct me if I am wrong, but I took this as you talking about the quallity of their websites not the teams. If that be the case, I whole heartedly agree. Some of the websites are absolute jokes. No consistency